User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Elementalist/Archive 1

Conjure Flame, Conjure Frost, Conjure Lightning

Warriors using these do too much damage. They make Sun and Moon Slash deal as much damage as Final Thrust but no condition and goes right through prot. I think Cripslash is strong enough without conjures and this is just forcing Axe Warriors off to the side. Also, the conjures push utility off Warrior bars. --TimeToGetIntense 01:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

These skills have a pretty high spec cost, and they are subject to removal, and they lock you into an elemental type, which allows the enemy team to swap to their elemental shields and drop your damage. While they are good for adding damage to a build and help get through prot spirit and prot bond, I think with all the downsides it's hard to say these things are overpowered. ~Izzy @-'----

If you have a +10 vs element armor shield on a caster that's like 10% damage reduction (I don't know, but +24 armor is 30% so I might be being generous) He's dealing 15+ extra damage on every hit though, which is like a 60+% damage boost. It totally owns that shield. You're still dealing more than a Warrior would without conjure. Also, removal isn't really an issue because teams only have so much removal. They are better off removing defensive enchantments. Well, how about make Sun and Moon Slash remove one enchantment off yourself? That's what really tips the scale, IMHO. Also, I suggest you ask on #gwp about this. --TimeToGetIntense 17:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

+10 armor is roughly a 20% damage reduction. Conjures are on a 45 second recharge. Any team with more than one copy of shatter enchant is going to be able to rip it off as soon as it goes on. As for it reducing utility...most warriors will fill that slot with something like enraging charge if they're staying at stand, or something like mending touch if they want that guy to be splittable. Neither of these options takes skill to use. Also, I I see axe warriors _all the time_, if anything agonizing chop has made them even more popular.--Symbol 18:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

20% still isn't enough to matter if that's the case. And by utility, I was thinking interrupts. As far as enchantment removal goes, it's not like most teams have enough removal to make Conjure useless. Overall, it's a passive skill that's stronger than most active skills you can bring instead. I think that any passive skill being a viable alternative to active skills is bad for the game. If you use active skills well, you should do better than someone using passive skills, but in this case, that's just not true. --TimeToGetIntense 00:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

There's really only one change I want to see to these skills. Make the normal attack damage trigger rof instead of conjure. With conjures triggering all the rofs for ~12 damage, it makes rof really inefficient. Pluto 01:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that then Conjure would come in after the attack, so Deep Wound attacks would be instant kill at 30-40%. Conjure just shouldn't be as effective as using the slot on a well-used active skill. I mean, come on. --TimeToGetIntense 23:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with the passive skill vs active skills being bad for the game, but like I said before the costs for these skills are pretty big, and while the shield isn't a huge difference, free damage reduction is nothing to laugh at. ~Izzy @-'----

Is it at all possible with the game engine to "bundle" the damage from Conjure and the weapon damage together in a single packet, rather than 2 individual packets? If you made that change, I think it'd make the skill still fairly viable (it's still a good DPS increase), while removing a few of the things that all add up to make the conjures fairly impressive for passive skills - being able to break RoFs on low damage numbers, sneak through prot, as well as the straight extra damage. Of course, if it's not possible with the way the engine is setup, then the suggestion's moot. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It is possible, but the problem is it would remove feedback and greatly weaken the skill, you would not know where the extra damage is coming from it would be like Strength of Honor, I like the extra feedback and I think the extra numbers while allow you to get past Prot Spirit are part of why this skill is worth bringing. ~Izzy @-'----

You mentioned down in the section about Orison that the game is balanced around RoF (not surprisingly). Wouldn't it be viable, then, to lower the damage bonus slightly on conjures, given that they'd still have the powerful effect of breaking RoFs? And still be able to sneak extra damage in through prot. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that for a passive skill to be viable, it has to be stronger than active alternatives. That's why I'm saying conjures should be nerfed. They used to be fine for casual PvP when they did less damage, but not worth a slot for GvG and that was fine because the stronger skills took more skill to play, so you'd have more interesting characters in GvG. --TimeToGetIntense 01:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

But there is no Active Alternates for damage buffs, I mean even if you nerf these skills people are not gonna use Order of Pain more, there really isn't much else in the game that a warrior can bring to increase his damage output, most things the warrior does work with Conjures not replace them. ~Izzy @-'----

Signet of Strength is somewhat an example of an active damage buff, ever if it's not great. Perhaps things like that would need buffing before changes could be made to Conjures. -- (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 01:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Frenzy is an active damage buff. :P I find that Conjure pushes utility off because I can't fit an interrupt on a Conjure Cripslash bar. It's Conjure, Frenzy, Rush, Bull's Strike, Cripslash, Gash, Sun and Moon Slash, Rez. Why would I put in interesting skills when I can put out tons of DPS and spike for so much with Sun and Moon Slash? I said this before, but Sun and Moon + Conjure is part of the problem because it has such consistantly high damage. I'd rather be using an interrupt and Final Thrust but that would be weaker. --TimeToGetIntense 02:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but few people took an interrupt before conjure got buffed, so you're not going to see a sudden resurgence of cripslash bars with dblow or something (I used it, but no one else I knew did), even if you nerf conjures. Not every skill in the game needs to be active. Long duration, long recharge skills are fine as long as you can't build an entire bar around them, so I'm fine with conjure staying as is. It's a fragile damage buff that _should_ punish your opponents if they don't bother doing anything about it (in today's enchant heavy meta, there's no excuse for bringing some sort of reasonably robust enchant removal).--Symbol 16:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

While I agree Frenzy is a very active buff, my point is Frenzy works with the Conjures rather then replaces them, my point was there is nothing to replace the job of the conjures therefor it's hard to argue that passive vs active when there is really only one option. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's true. I actually think that Warriors do enough damage without conjures in the first place though, so I see Conjures as an alternative to using interrupts/KDs. --TimeToGetIntense 21:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Conjures are really strong. The things that make them seem really disgusting are all of the fast attack skills (Sun and Moon Slash, Agonizing Chop, Critical Chop) that compress Conjure damage into a nasty spike, and the lack of attractive enchantment removal options (you can't run a Necro that isn't a sticky hexer, and the Mesmer stuff is all so slow and expensive). I think they're strong but fair now, though if the massive defense metagame is fixed I think that it will be obvious how over the top Conjures and Wearying Strike are. -Ensign 19:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I run a cripslash without conjures, and I've found it to do as much, if not more damage, than when I run conjure. The amount you need to spec for it to make up for your lowered attributes makes it about even. I've never had any problems with or against these skills. The high recharge means if it gets removed, you become significantly less dangerous. Shard 04:25, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Assuming you dump the attributes from 10 (element) into Strength, bringing it up to 13 most likely, you're adding 4% armor penetration. I don't understand how 4% armor penetration and 3 life stealing can compare to 17 elemental damage vs. 60 AL. And mind you, the 17 elemental damage works on all attacks, not just attack skills. --Tensei 18:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

A 4% damage boost that doesn't get blown up in your face when you come near your friendly neighbourhood mesmer or necro and a choice of weaponry to suit different targets. Show me a balanced team setup that doesn't have such ability. And if it's AB we're talking about, where few people bring Enchantment removal because they're too interested in their own build, then it's more your own fault for not coutnering it, or not getting another team member to do so. --Ckal Ktak 08:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

These skills do not go right through prots; they just go through PS/SBond. Shielding Hands and SoA own conjures in the face. Also, now that warriors will be less likely to be aegissed, they're even easier to remove. Yesterday I drained tons of them before a warrior got a single swing in.--72.211.155.160 19:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

^^ I Agree with this - a big reason people had trouble with conjures was the party wide cover enchantment spam. They're strong if left undisturbed but they're in no way overpowered. --Tankity Tank 23:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Now that Drain Enchantment is good again and Rending Touch was buffed, I think Conjures aren't really an issue anymore. I wouldn't run them now. --TimeToGetIntense 19:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset) These skills need a complete rework, why are these even ele skills? they are completely useless to an elementalist, I think they should include the +dmg any time you cause their type of ele dmg, not just with an attack. --Lou-Saydus 20:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If they did that, then the damage would have to be lowered considerably. Imagine Searing Flames with +15 damage...or Savannah Heat. *shivers* Nicky Silverstar 06:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think a good balance would be to make the conjure damage trigger after the main axe/sword/scythe/dagger/etc. damage, because the two damages are seperate damage. This balance would allow RoF to actually do its job and not be an hinderance rather than a help. Conjure's just soak up energy because RoF isn't effective versus it. --(Problem. 00:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

These have been nerfed, well see how they play after that. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Meteor Shower

Broken in PvE, making all forms of shutdown unnecessary as everything will die after 2 or 3 of these is placed down on the monks. Make it last 6 seconds hitting every 2, so that it will KD only twice to one target that doesnt move, with as much damage as before. Might make it easier for the Monks to survive (purely pve perspective).--Renegade 13:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't think so. This skill has a high energy cost, extremely high recharge, causes exhaustion and has only adjacent radius. It's completely overrated - I think by this point people take this skill more out of being used to it than thanks to this being good. Add how it does not cause AoE scatter (something beasy easy to deal with, as long as you think of a stratey, but unfortunately many players don't bother with doing so), and you have players going crazy over something that isn't that great to begin with. Erasculio 13:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It really is great though. If there is more than one monk in a group, theyll bunch up within adjacent range of each other from the spawn. Use this and thats 9 seconds of complete shutdown (none would carry reversal or another 1/4 cast that would fit in time). 9 seconds of shutdown is easily enough time for a Fire ele to kill. By the time you get to the next group it has recharged, or is close.--Renegade 14:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

"If there is more than one monk in a group, theyll bunch up within adjacent range of each other from the spawn" - er, I don't really agree with that, though. I think some enemies do that in PvE (for example, the Skree Griffins we fight in Kourna) because they have Healing Touch (and unfortunately they don't know how to use it only as a self heal), but most others don't really get together so often. Also, while enemies in Prophecies are usually very far from each other, the same is not true in Nightfall and specially in Factions. This skill became really popular by the time Sorrow's Furnace was released, thanks to the Gear Trick that made it very, very easy to get all enemies in adjacent range from each other, attacking a specific target. But without that (and I'm very happy that exploit was removed), and without some other kind of way to use this skill more than once (such as Echo, Arcane Echo or Glyph of Renewal, I don't think this skill is that good - good, but not that good or overpowered. Erasculio 14:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, come to think of it, this skill is INCREDIBLY broken in PvE... no wonder nobody needs a mesmer... -Rakeman 17:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the skills where you want to PvE AI to be changed, rather than changing the skill. There's absolutely nothing wrong with MS. Just walk 3 paces to your left after the cast is completed. --  (CoRrRan / talk) 17:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

game balance+pve=no point.--12.217.38.85 19:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Meteor Shower actually does cause AoE scatter, it just rarely triggers before the end of the Shower (well, it seems to trigger right around the time the 3rd meteor hits) when everything should be dead already. It's a skill that plays nicely into the 'round everything up into a tight ball then AoE it down' strategy but is otherwise pretty weak. -Ensign 20:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of the game code (and someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong) is that Met Shower is not considered a persistent AOE skill and does not trigger scatter. It probably looks like it causes scatter because the Monster AI at 66% health level instructs them to seek a new target/reset aggro. --Black mischief 21:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

From my experience, persistant AoE is any time that a single character deals AoE damage in intervals of 1 second or less, even using multiple skills. But yeah, I agree that Meteor Shower is broken in PvE. What if it just did an initial KD and then did damage every second? Then the recharge and cast time could be lowered and it might be a reasonable skill for PvP too. --TimeToGetIntense 22:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Multiple MS do cause AoE, you can see it happening a lot in HM. GoA + The Deep for example. You need a snare or box in target to avoid it kiting. Xitoahc 22:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In my own opinion as playing Ele for 22 months, I think they nerfed this skill when they made Firestorm stronger than it.--§ Eloc § 10:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Mobs become more prone to scattering as their health gets lower, could be an extension of the AoE code or something else entirely. Melee mobs are also much more eager to scatter than ranged mobs. You can get a ball of ranged attackers to tank a Searing Heat when at full health pretty consistently but they'll run after a couple seconds if they're around half health. Also, mobs have a tendency to scatter at low health anyway, and any guys in excess of 3 love to break aggro at first opportunity. What I do know is that even when the only fire guy on a team, mobs do love to break aggro and scatter after the second meteor hits. You tell me what part of the AI code is responsible for that. -Ensign 11:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Sanity check - the topic of PvE balance was breeched, and the starting point for talking about overpowered PvE skills is Meteor Shower? WTF? -Ensign 11:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It's only fitting, in a way. Just like some PvP discussions begin with people saying that something overused is overpowered (regardless of how one thing does not always mean the other), the same here - Meteor Shower is probably the most overhyped skill in PvE, so the perception of some players is that it's overpowered (regardless of how it isn't). Erasculio 13:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Meteor Shower is the best place to start for PvE balance because it may be the only skill keeping Mesmers out of high level PvE. --TimeToGetIntense 21:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

If Meteor Shower shutdown isn't what you want you use Broadhead Arrow + Epidemic. I don't know what a Mesmer could possibly do that would make me want one in PvE, particularly Hard Mode. -Ensign 07:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

IMO, a Mesmer should be able to cause Dazed, PvE-wise. Then it would become a viable choice instead of a Broadhead Arrow ranger. But I don't think Meteor Shower is the problem at all. Erasculio 12:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

When I first read the description of this spell, I saw that it would be attractive to some, but I still haven't figured out what the big deal is about this spell. It is powerful, but not overly so, and it costs a lot of resources to use effectively. Even if you could find a way to nerf it (which will be hard, seeing as it is very restrictive already), it will still be used more often than it should be.Nicky Silverstar 07:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Meteor Shower used to be the only AoE that wouldn't cause monsters to run around stupid as soon as they got hit. So Elementalists would double echo meteor shower.

You people keep saying that this skill is too strong yet I think it should be buffed to "in the area" range. Lets see why. 1. This skills cost 35 energy. (1/3 of an Ele's bar) 2. It has a 5 second cast. Which makes it REALLY easy to stop. 3. Its recharge is so long you only get to use it once every battle or so. Done25 21:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Your top 3 reasons are all pretty bad. 35 energy is never too much (it isnt even that much) for an ele with Attunements. No PvE enemy is going to stop an MS. Arcane Echo, Glyph of Renewal, Echo.--Renegade 21:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh noes, he echoed it! Anyway, doing echo chain for MS is propably most ridiculous thing you would see people do in PvE, donwtime on that combo is terrible for what it does, it takes up to 18 seconds to finish (Aecho > Ms -> Echo/Glyph -> Ms -> Ms) it gives you nice tripple exhaustion, not mentioning that you are sitting duck all that time (if enemies have interupt, he is candidate number one to get interupted, shickingly enough, good amount of pve enemies have interupts or kds). while competent SF ele with buddy would have done better damage, had time to reposition between casts and would be immediatelly ready to slaughter next group (both rechargewise and energywise). MS is way too overrated (mostly because it used to be only decent nuking skill till NF) Zweistein 21:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

QQ It takes five seconds to cast! How is that too strong, and in factions you get dazed by BHA and in nf stripped so your dry of energy quick if you try and spam this. Not only that if the enemies simply move or even go after you their safe. By the time you get a third one out theres only 1 in effect. Other than that you'll need more eles, which take up more support and die easier than tanks. If anything doing the math other fire skills take WAY more damage in shorter time spans, so why pick this one to want to nerf? Unforgivablesin 22:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Its not hard to understand why this skill I chose over the others; its being used by all good nukers because it gives AoE shutdown and damage to an area. That is why. Echoing it just makes the shutdown last longer. Enemies will not move from it not only because they are KDed, but because they are stupid.--Renegade 10:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not broken in PvE. It's powerful, but it's not enough to make every other skill unusable. 76.64.186.175 21:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

IMHO if Meteor Shower really is breaking all other shutdown in pve (and I don't think it is) then the solution is to buff other methods of shutdown, not to wreck MS. --Tankity Tank 02:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Meteor shower is horrible in competitive play. No offense, but who cares how good it is in pve...there are tons of ways for fire eles to mindlessly farm pve baddies with or without meteor shower. Honestly, I laughed when I saw this in the overpowered page. Shard 04:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

in PvE, BHA is THE shutdown, Shover is too random and too infrequent to be really worth itself just for three untimed (= random) KDS every 65 seconds. It just does not cut it especially versus hardmode bosses, once you start getting more of it, this skill starts to eat too much energy and skillslots (and even elite skillslots if you go for triple MS). It is not underpovered nor overpovered, it is just overrated, and currently not worth skillslot even in PvE Zweistein 11:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Meteor Shower is pretty much a longer-recharging, more expensive version of Fire Storm with 8 seconds of shutdown. -- Gordon Ecker 03:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Overpowered? Please. Meteor Shower has a high energy cost and a ridiculous cast AND recharge time for it to be anywhere overpowered. Assassin's promise and glyph of sacrifice work decent with it, but MS is no longer the big spell for eles. While you're at it, nerf maelstrom too since it is even more effective at shutting down casters in PVE...--Zarfol 23:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

... Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 07:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)