User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Dervish/Archive 2

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Onslaught Onslaught

Could use a buff, like a fixed 20 second duration with 1/4 casting time (like most elite derv enchantments) would be nice. IF there were to be a fixed duration, then the % would probably have to adjust depending what your Wind Prayers is. Other than that, I would rather take Zealous Vow than this because of the little effect Onslaught has. ( 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC))

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, your attack Skills recharge 5...29...35% faster and cost 5...29...35% less Energy. 5/.25/10 --Deathwing 21:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I like that. Deserved the same buff zealous vow did, however, it never got it.--Atlas Oranos 20:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
It needs a tweak, not a buff. I don't like the effect of the skill. Rework skill: "Enchantment spell. For each blocked attack, your next attacks do +xy damage each time". Damage is reset when enchantment ends or is reapplied. What does this mean? It means risk and reward, and it's what I like in the game. It means that if enemy overuses block, and negates a lot of your damage, they risk that you damage them more afterwards. In other words, you could pressure the target with Shield of Deflection and Aegis and then you stack +xx+xx+x+xx+xx bonus, teammate Rt puts that block-ignoring weapon on you, and you do nice 5x++dmg to a target for the rest of Onslaught duration whenever you manage to hit. If you fail to utilize opportunity (blind, block etc) then you pretty much wasted your elite. If you do utilize it by mini spikes, it payed off (if the skill is correctly balanced ofc). In any case, such a skill would bring more adrenaline to the battlefield. The enemy team would always be "Dervish is 'building' Onslaught now, prepare to counter if needed". Servant of Kali 22:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
If we are doing reworks, Elite Enchantment Spell. For 15 seconds, you lose 1 energy for every second you are attacking. Every successful attack increases your attack speed by 5% (Maximum 5...41...50). Every unsuccessful attack increases your attack damage by 5% (Maximum 5...41...50. Yay. --Deathwing 22:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
No attack speed, Dervish has enough of those skills :) Servant of Kali 07:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It just needs a 1/2 cast and a reduction to 5 energy imo.--Atlas Oranos 07:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
It already is 5 energy. --Ckal Ktak 10:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, sorry. Then just a reduction to 1/2 cast time. I had the prebuff Onslaught in my head.-- 17:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Deathwings idea is best, 25% energy for mostly 5 energy skills is 1 energy, and for 10 energy skills it is 2 energy.... that is really lame, you have to use 3 to 5 attacks just to get back the energy you spent on the skill, it is hardly energy management, and 25% faster recharge is also pretty lame, it would typically shave off one to 3 seconds on most attacks. I really don't see the value of spending a skill slot just to have slightly better recharge on some attacks, you may as well bring another attack skill if your going to use a slot, and even gain some attack utility..... Unless the skill can cause a minimum of 3 attacks to eclipse 4 attacks in cost and use, it isn't a worthwile skill.

Perhaps it should be 40% attack recharge and attack skill cost reduction. At 40 percent it grants 2 energy for 5 energy, and 4 energy for 10 energy, making a reasonable impact, and 40% X 3 attack recharges is 120% over 3 attacks, effectively allowing 3 attack skills along with Onslaught to eclipse the use of 4 equivalent attacks. This would be worth using another slot for an elite instead of another attack, even with only 2 attack skills it would make an impact. The attribute could effect duration, and the cast time and general duration could be reduced, since quick enchantments offer more energy recycling for Dervish, and paying out more slightly increases the cost Dervish.... or other professions are technically paying out for the benifit.--BahamutKaiser 02:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Reap Impurities Reap Impurities

Err, I won't even pretend to know why Victorious Sweep basically outclasses this skill in every way. Both are melee attacks, but Victorious gives a bigger heal, recharges in half the time, and costs half as much. Finally, Victorious Sweep's conditional is arguably easier to hit, especially if you're on Vital Boon in PvE or god mode in PvP. Suggestion: 5 energy, 4 recharge, or lower the healing by a bit (say, to 15...51...60) and have it heal per condition per struck foe. As Reap Impurities is right now, I count my blessings that the Kournan wildlife waste 10e on this skill. In any case, I wouldn't see this skill as a high priority since dervishes have bigger problems, but I'm throwing this out now since Reap Impurities feels like a relic from the preview, when Victorious Sweep (neé Penitent Strike) was less playable. ~Seef II <|> 09:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Inflciting conditions can be done to order rather easily with dervishes actually, even AoE for multi hit scythe attacks, which is probably why they were worried about this skill, as it allows you to one on one most warriors and other dervishes as you can heal and inflict damage at the same time. But perhaps they went a bit overboard with it, because the cost tends to be too prohibitive when there's good old chilling viictory to go into that slot instead. --Ckal Ktak 08:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm always more concerned about recharge than cost personally, especially when the competing skill has half of it. Yes, inflicting conditions is actually very easy true, but it's still pretty bad. I guess this was actually balanced as both a base self-heal AND an attack skill. Basically, it has 8s recharge like most self-heals while having 10E cost because it's 5E for the attack skill and 5E for the self-heal. But in the end, it doesn't really work as either because there's just better options. I'd say 5/6 would make this pretty good. Patccmoi 16:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
This is pretty bad when it cost twice as much and is useable half as much, either limitation is enough, not both.--BahamutKaiser 04:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Make it 15E and Heal for Each Condition on Target Foes 19:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Arcane Zeal Arcane Zeal

You need like freaken 5 enchantments in your build for this skill to be effective. Plus the 10 Energy and 10 second duration makes this crap. ( 02:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC))

Don't buff this. It's already getting a lot of use on a D/N orders flagger in the powerful and increasingly popular Draak Empire physical pressure build. Errr 10:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know wht Draak Empire is running, but we ran D/N before with Arcane Zeal spamming Dark Fury, Order of Pain AND Mystic Healing non-stop because of Arcane Zeal. It doesn't need any kind of buff atm i think. The only one i could see is making it so that you gain 2E for every OTHER enchant on you (so not counting AZeal) while keeping the same cap. This means that you'd need 4 enchants to reach 6E per cast, which would be more realistic and force your build a little less. But i don't think it's absolutely necessary either, and the skill is very powerful as is. Patccmoi 17:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have never seen anyone using this "powerful" skill, I wonder why.. 5 October 2007
Simply because most of the time Pious Renewal serves the purpose better. This is easy to interrupt, challenging to maintain (continuously keeping enchantments on yourself and getting destroyed by enchantment removal) and forces user to bring like 3 long duration enchantments. --Shadetz X 11:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Intimidating Aura Intimidating Aura

A skill with awesome name. But doesn't live up to it at all :) The only benefit of this skill is 60sec duration which might be nice for some combos with Arcane Echo I guess. Still, I don't enjoy in putting a bunch of useless skills on my bar just to use 2 real skills. This skill is way too conditional and situation to be useless as enchant removal, it's too expensive for what it does. Rework skill: "Enchantment spell. For 20 seconds, if you take damage one nearby foe loses an enchantment and this enchantment ends." 3 seconds recharge time. Servant of Kali 17:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that's too powerful, though. One big advantage of this skill is that it allows the removal of enchantments that prevent spells (like Obsidian Flame, Spell Breaker and so on) - many skills that also do this have a huge cost or a huge drawback (like Signet of Disenchantment). Intimidating Aura is able to remove those skills (as long as you hit the target) without huge problems. I think the condition is actually a good thing - after you cast it, you may strike enemies without enchantments as much as you want, as long as you have more health than they have, without worrying about Intimidating Aura removing itself. Only when you want to use the enchantment removal you have to worry about hitting someone with lower health, and that's a condition easy to meet, between the extra health the Dervish armor gives to them and the Dervish skills that increase their health. Between that and the long duration of this enchantment (as you mentioned, it's useful with skills that require you to be enchanted, so it helps with the whole "manage enchantments and use them to fuel you" theme the Dervishes have), I think this only needs a minor buff, at most. Erasculio 18:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick question - when and where exactly did you use this skill last time? Servant of Kali 18:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This skill is currently used to kill 55s, see Berserking Bison to see what I mean.
I use this skill, it's a handy way to work enchant removal into a spike. It saves using Rending Touch and delaying the spike. --Epinephrine 14:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Balthazar's Rage Balthazar's Rage

Too unreliable to be useful. Rework skill: "Whenever you take damage, the damage you deal is increased by x..y% for 0..4 seconds." Servant of Kali 13:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Balthazar's Rage is being discussed below, at the "Dervish Skill Balances" section (and hi Kali!) Erasculio 16:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I know, I saw, but I thought that section is messed up and each skill deserves a special "thread", like every other skills here. It's easier that way IMO, unless some skills are really similiar such as those earth condition enchants. Balthazar's Rage is so bad that it requires special attention ;) As you can see, I didn't even bother buffing the skill, I aim at complete rework! And yeah, hi there :ppp I noticed all of you guys are posting here, both Pat Arredondo and you :) Servant of Kali 17:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Because of the need to have healing right away, the general function of this skill is greatly in question. Even if it was free, having some healing come by in 20 seconds isn't saving anyones life, so the time really needs to go down. And honestly, delayed healing altogether is highly ineffective, I find Patient Spirit tedious to wait for, so even 10 seconds may be too long. And since delayed healing on just yourself is nearly worthless, as any healing skill from any profession is going to outperform this (give me healing signet....), I would consider an AoE heal payout.
I'd like this skill to remain in the fashion it is in, but it would have to be alot more useful, so I would suggest this alternative.

5 energy cost, 1/2 cast time, 5 second duration, 5 second recharge. Deals a half the current damage, and when the enchantment ends, all nearby allies are healed for 10-20 health for each successful hit delt during this enchantment.

The reduced time would greatly improve the functionality of the spell, and the reduced cost would allow a high energy return from mysticism. Since even 5 seconds wait is a long way from saving anyones life, the nearby healing effect offers potent healing benifits to allies in an area, helping sustain a group of frontline attackers, great for healing minions and pets and mixed melee units. It certianly isn't the lifesaving heal that many skills are, but Dervish has some decent healing skills already, and this does offer a unique and effective AoE healing option for Dervish.--BahamutKaiser 04:21, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Eremite's Zeal Eremite's Zeal

Useless skill. So useless that I'm not even sure how to fix it, since I'm not a huge fan of "adjacent" bonuses. Ah well, maybe for PvE rework it: "Enchantment Spell. When your melee attack hits more than one foe, those foes take x..y additional damage." Servant of Kali 13:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I was just hoping to see it with a lower cast time, and give you base energy when nothing is around.--Atlas Oranos 10:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Nah, I just don't like the energy-gain thing. It's in Mysticism after all, and energy isn't something I badly need as a Dervish. Lower cast time won't help with this skill in PvP if enemy is smart enough not to group, and let's be honest, if the enemy is grouping in PvP they are probably dead anyway. You're hitting 2+ people with a scythe, that's bad enough as it is (for them)Servant of Kali 13:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
All it needs to do is match its own wording, as it stands now, if you haven't got any enchantments to remove, then you don't get energy. The skill's description implies that you still should. It might be alright then. --Ckal Ktak 14:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it's still bad. Look, you lose an enchantment. Now, sometimes Dervish needs to lose an enchantment *but* this means you need to be careful about it (if you use any ofc). Next, the spell costs 5 energy (which isnt lowered with Mysticism since it's a spell and not enchantment), and if only one enemy is adjacent you gain... 1 energy? Which means this skill is only ever useful in PvE, and as such it needs to be tweaked. Why? There are PvE-only skills now, we don't need skills which are only useful in PvE and not in any PvP arena (at least in FA or AB or RA). Also, this skill lowers your damage. It's 1 second cast (is there any aftercast?), which technically means you could have done 1 scythe sweep. If there were 2 enemies adjacent, that's a nice damage which you didn't do because you were busy gaining energy, and since your Mysticism has to be high for this skill in the first place, it's not very likely you'll need energy that bad to devote a skill slot to this skill. Heck, I finished Nightfall with Dervish and never had any need for this skill. I'd rather kill than waste time casting e-gain spells except maybe in very specialized build, but since no one thus far came with such a specialized build it's logical to assume there isn't any :) So, all that put together, the skill description is: "Lose an enchatment. Do xy less damage. Gain some energy, maybe". So basically, you sacrifice damage for energy, so that you can use gained energy for skills which cause more damage? Doesn't make sense to me :) Servant of Kali 16:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
How about....
"Spell. Every second for 5 seconds you lose an enchantment, if you lose an enchantment this way, adjacent foes takes 20 holy damage and you gain 1...5...6 Energy for each adjacent foe (maximum 15 Energy)."
Maybe? I don't know : / --Deathwing 16:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sick and tired of energy gain skills ;) And I'm sick and tired of PvE skills which require additional adjacent foes. I'm a PvPer (even though I did play PvE too), and I just dont buy that. Give me blood and gore, give me impaling, mutilating, masacres and slaughter! :ppp OK here's one!! "Eremite's Zeal: Spell. If 2 of more foes are adjacent to you, they are all knocked down and have Cracked Armor for x..xy seconds." There you go! A conditional adjacent skill which will do almost nothing vs experienced teams (especially when they see you have this skill) but will be fun against all else. Combo this with Aura Slicer. Oh man I can already feel the power of this skill!! ;)) Izzy cmon, remove pansy flower-picking-energy skills and let us feel the power flowing through us :) Servant of Kali 17:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I really think Dervish was suppose to be a counter to is kind of sad that Anet still does not accept AoE damage as a counter to a situation/circumstance rather than a powerful asset. As for this skill in particular, Dervish is suppose to defeat a group of foes, and having a powerful energy management skill wile surrounded or near several foes is reasonable. This can lose the enchantment removal, increase the range of effect to nearby, and slightly reduce the amount of energy gained to 1-4..5, as well as increase the recast time to 10 or 12 seconds. It does seem like a mad energy improvement, but this is a dervish in the midst of enemies, and using skills to turn the tide wile surrounded is a neccessary function for a unit which thrust himself against bad odds. Also, the enchantment removal reduces the requirement, but also removes the added health and energy returned from that enchantment, in a way reducing the energy returned and also removing its usefulness as an enchantment stripping option.

Overall, adding too many stipulations into one effect is bad, and having to be adjacent to several foes is difficult, risky, and unreliable. Foes adjacent to you can run, and with a 1 second cast time, if they don't want to be beside you, they are out of range before the spell completes, making this worthless wile chasing, nearby remedies that. Nearby also helps alot with getting multiple foes into the equation, making the reduction in energy gain in combination more likely to yeild more energy. Since this is a 5 energy spell, and not removing an enchantment offers the chance that no energy may be returned by its use, a moderatly high recast time and higher effectiveness are quite reasonable.--BahamutKaiser 04:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Mystic Corruption Mystic Corruption

Rework skill: Whenever you suffer from a Condition from a foe, that foe is inflicted with the same condition. Duration of the enchantment 5..30. Servant of Kali 13:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is a nasty skill when thought out properly, using this an say, contagion or fevered dreams can give enemy monks a right headache. And the fact that it's coded to work with mystic sandstorm, dust cloak, aura of horns and staggering force etc is amazing. --Ckal Ktak 14:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
OK it's like this. Having played this game for over 2 years I'm kinda tired of bad skills staying bad because perhaps potentially there is a potential abstract role they would be good in. Can you perhaps demonstrate this skill for me? Can you perhaps make a build which make this skill good? Or team build? Be my guest, and when you manage to get it work, we can debate further. Right now, this skill is in your opinion theoretically great, it's just that none of the great GW players ever used it in any PvP arena I was in, nor in PvE. Of course, it's entirely possible that none of these both good n bad players 'properly thought out' this skill, so you have a chance now to show us, and go where no GWer even went before. Basically, you're saying that this skill paired with Dust Cloak etc is good, even though 1 Mend Condition > your 2-skill expensive combo. Let's see, you're going to Blind someone who is adjacent for 6 seconds with these 2 skills, that's totally dangerous. Aura of Thorns will... do 17 second Bleeding and 13 second Crippled. That's ... 3 skills which will do worse than Apply Poison. See, the main issue with Conditions isn't the lenght, but frequency of re-applying them. Even if your Bleeding lasted 60 minuteswith Mystic Corruption, 1 Mend Condition still takes care of it. Servant of Kali 16:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I tried some ideas but I think this is one of those skills where its not worth building around. 30 duration or 20 recharge could help a bit. 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I know. Which is why I think my suggestion makes more sense than any "longer duration" condition thing. Conditions don't last for ages, they are easy to remove these days, even in RA. Improving recharge etc wont help, really. Even if you make it into a signet with instant recharge and cast time, it will not get used, because the beneefit is useless in its current form. Servant of Kali 10:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It definetly needs some added value, but I don't like the idea of changing it's effect to basically a plague effect instead of a Mystic effect. If it wasn't Mystic and it wasn't dervish, I could agree with the idea, but when I think about what you want to do with it, I'm thinking of a really cool condition counter..... for smiting prayers. I might come back to this when my mind isn't running low.--BahamutKaiser 04:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Irresistible Sweep Irresistible Sweep

Useless right now, buff in a wrong way would be too strong. Slightly rework skill and add: "Target foe loses Preparation." Let's spice things up. No, it's not like people would take this skill for gimmick, really i dont see it happening. But the additional effect is nice to have. Servant of Kali 13:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Simple buff, have it crit if an enchantment is removed. --Ckal Ktak 14:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe even "cannot miss" altogether? Would be an interesting mechanism, but the skill is still too far off the mark to even consider. Dervishes need utility; if they wanted +dmg there's Victorious Sweep; if they want unblockable, there's Wild Blow which due to the scythe's damage range will often hit for more than an Irresistible. ~Seef II <|> 00:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Yea, I like that. "Cannot miss", basically, a skill which goes through block and hits through blind. Considering Dervishes are sweeping the floor with a scythe, it *has* to hit someone! ;) Would be cool for killing Shadowsong. Ofc skill needs to be balanced, but really, as it is, no one is gonna use it. I'm all for utility. Servant of Kali 00:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's the thing, the Dervish right now is definitely a "Timmy" (for explanation, see here, you can skip the test) class. Avatars are basically the kind of thing for those players, e.g., Balthazar. Lyssa fits in with the "Johnny" archetype, and Melandru with the "Spike." They're still "Timmy" types of skills overall, with potential or observed huge power but notable drawbacks as well. But overall, I think a lot of people play this class to see big yellow numbers in melee - face it, a critical Eviscerate to the face isn't much more than hitting a critical protstrike with a scythe. That's what "Timmy" lives for. So a lot of the scythe attack skills are designed to put up those numbers: Reaper's Sweep and Chilling Victory, maybe the upcoming Radiant Scythe. Those are nice for the "Timmy" players, but usually bad choices for "Spike"s since those skills don't do much of anything except throw out a slow hit. Irresistible, at +10...26...30 is quite nice damage, even without losing an enchantment, but is hopelessly outclassed by Wild Blow for utility/block, Victorious Sweep for simultaneous damage+utility, and Wearying Strike for actually killing things. I'd much rather trade "Timmy" style play with "Johnny" (combo stuff) or "Spike" (competitive) play, since those tend to add depth or interest to the game and profession. Melandru, for instance, isn't really much more than "swap up, hit 1, swap down, and then hit 2 whenever it lights up." It's not really deep, and the fact that it works so well in competitive play is a sticking point (no pun intended) for many. I'd really like to see an attractive non-elite Deep Wound for dervishes, and this skill has the potential to be reworked into it.
Perhaps: 5/0/10, Lose 1 Enchantment. If Irresistible Sweep hits, you cause a Deep Wound for 5...10...11 seconds. If you lost an Enchantment in this way, Irresistible Sweep deals +10...20...22 damage and cannot be blocked. Simply put, once Melandru and/or Wearying get nerfed the scythe Dervish has little going for it outside of Rending Touch, and that's easily put on a hardier character (Warrior) who can also slot on Pious Haste. Because the enchantment thing is so neglected in competitive play, forcing the DW or damage (can go either way) with a loss of an enchantment should revitalize things somewhat. Buffing Irresistible like this, of course, would necessitate a buff to Wounding Strike, but I am fine with leaving that one to languish; Reaper's Sweep won't take much to become competitive, and single-elite weapon lines (axes) aren't anything new to the game. ~Seef II <|> 01:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, non-elite DW that isn't Wearying Strike would be VERY nice. I think i'd lower the damage though. Or actually remove the +damage altogether and maybe make it 'cause DW, if you lose an enchantment can't be blocked'? Maybe too strong for caster spikes, dunno. I just don't really like +damage and DW on the same attack on a Scythe, it DOES feel overpowered. Reaper's Sweep is fine being elite, but for a non-elite DW i'm not sure i would do it. Patccmoi 16:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd much rather see "this attack cannot miss", it would be more unique than another deep wound. The "cannot miss" would mean it ignores both blind and block. It would be realistic since if you swing a scythe it's quite likely you'd hit someone around you, blind or no blind ;) Servant of Kali 08:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Would "cannot miss" bypass blocking? I've always assumed that miss, block and (before it was merged with block) evade were separate checks. -- Gordon Ecker 22:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with the "this attack cannot miss or be blocked" idea - that allows the Dervish to keep the main role he currently has, of a source of pressure that is very hard to shut down, without relying exclusively on Avatar of Melandru. It adds one non elite option to what currently is the only unique role the dervishes have. Erasculio 22:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I love Seef's suggestion, but Id lower the damage to max at 10-15.--Atlas Oranos 11:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
5/0/10, Lose 1 Enchantment. If you lose an Enchantment in this way, Irresistible Sweep deals +3...13...15 damage and you cause a Deep Wound for 5...13...15 seconds. Irresistible Sweep cannot be blocked.? Remember, this attack's still typed "Melee Attack", let's make sure running an Orders guy won't put Eviscerate Jr. on every warrior's bar.
On second thought, there's no way to work unblockable, DW, and +dmg into one skill without it being balanced. One of the three has to go - probably the +dmg, and it'd still be better than Wounding Strike. Sigh - I dunno, there's so much potential in the Dervish but I can't agree with their implementation. If they were meant to be a somewhat squishy frontliner that does a lot of damage and casts offensive enchants, they're certainly not living up to that.
Final suggestion: 5/0/8, Scythe Attack. Lose 1 Enchantment. If an Enchantment is lost this way, Irresistible Sweep cannot be blocked. This attack inflicts a Deep Wound for 3...13...15 seconds if it hits. I'd be happy with this in both PvP and PvE, and it's balanced like any of the Paragon DWs. I dunno whether I'd tie the unblockable or the DW to losing an enchant - again, it could go either way - but as it stands, Dervishes need something like this because it's a matter of when, not if, Melandru + Wearying will get nerfed. ~Seef II <|> 07:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Dervish has to be utility+dmg, not just pure damage profession like it is now. I don't like "more DW" suggestions. I'd much rather see some conditional but good skills which are made to counter meta just as mesmer is for instance. Servant of Kali 09:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems Izzy has expected Dervishes to subclass for utility - interrupts on /W or /A, stancebreaking in /W, knocks in /W. Really, their utility comes in what, healing? Healing that's not especially reliable, or healing that's so conditional that it's not worth running. It may work (once, maybe twice) for the Margonite Reaper who isn't usually targeted 'til the middle of the fight, but that kind of bar isn't effective at all against a smart Mesmer with Diversion or PLeak.
On the damage front, without Melandru, dervishes aren't anywhere near Warriors in terms of good or reliable damage. Simply because their Deep Wounds are elite and/or bad, and their utility is lacking. Enchantments are a non-factor - I think that if the avatars were specced in Wind or Earth, Mysticism would be completely ignored if not for Heart of Fury. I know I'd do that in a heartbeat - too many of the Mysticism skills don't do what you want a frontliner to do. All of the interesting utility in Earth either sucks or is for PvE, and wind stuff I think Patccmoi has covered pretty well. For the dervish to be a threat, they either do something niche (orders flagging), something imba (tree) or you take a warrior (W/D Steady Stance guy). ~Seef II <|> 19:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The utility of a dervish comes from forms and the ability to crit lots of things at once with craploads of +damage stacked on top. Aside from the tree the only form I see used is Lyssa's (usually run with harrier's haste) and that's just more damage stacking before the wild blow :P. I don't really see how giving dervishes utility will encourage people to use it, the physical damage output is strong enough to basically ignore any utility (unless the utility is brokenly overpowered, ala the tree, pre nerf grenth's av, etc.) --Tankity Tank 20:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
True. But big packet damage can come from hammers, too, which are less squishy (>80 AL or thumpers) and also have some of the best utility in the game and a fairly reliable DW. I like Lyssa, used it in HA and RA a couple times, and some dervish utility (Pious Haste.jpg & Rending Touch.jpg & Pious Restoration.jpg) really is awesome. But utility in the attack skills is what I'm really trying to push for, here. Banishing Strike is niche, Reap Impurities is pretty bad, Wounding Strike's currently a waste of an elite. More Crippling Sweeps and less Point Blank Shots imo, and there's still getting a competitive DW outside of Melandru + Wearying on the table. If we can first compress the bar by requiring only 2-3 attack skills like a Shock Axe guy and open up an interesting elite, we can start making Dervishes a solid alternative to warriors for simultaneous utility and damage. Right now we've got it covered because of Melandru but that could all change soon. Just trying to look forward here. I'm enjoying this debate, guys, keep the ideas flowing. =)
I don't think there's a big problem with the class as a whole given their damage output - I'm just worried about what happens after Melandru. In other words, the dervish won't be a meta profession like the necromancer, but if buffed/nerfed incorrectly, that might end up being the case. ~Seef II <|> 21:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
This is why I like the idea of Irresistible Sweep becoming something that cannot not hit the target. Currently, Dervishes are used thanks to Avatar of Melandru, and what AoM gives to them is the ability of ignoring most kinds of shut down. That's the role dervishes currently have, that's where dervishes excell over everyone else, and that's something that, IMO, should be kept in some degree or another. Having a "smaller" version of AoM as an attack skill (one that cannot be shut down through blindness or missing hexes or blocking hexes) would help the Dervish to keep the role he currently has, while preparing the profession for the eventual nerf of Melandru. Erasculio 00:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
OK this turned now into a full Dervish debate, so I'll add a few things. I've already posted some suggestion on how to make Dervish into a viable, fun, and risk-n-reward class (without Melandru). I would like to see a Dervish as a dynamic profession, where the enemy needs to see what skills Dervish has, in order to approach him in a corrent manner (unlike now where you have generic D builds in GvG for instance). Check my suggestion of buffing Mystic Corruption for instance. That skill would hinder condition spam on a Dervish, but it would not make him immune like Melandru. It would be more like "ok sure, ele can blind me, but he'll get blind too, which wont hurt him in itself but can serve as a cover condition; ranger can poison me but eh heh he's gonna get poison too". In other words, you put the enemy in "damn if you do damn if you don't" situations where he has to decide what's more beneficial to him. The other similiar suggestion is Balthazar's Rage (check it in this section). It basically says "OK, Dervish is more squishier than a Warrior, so let's use that. If enemy doesn't hit him, he roams their backline, and if they do try to kill him but fail, he goes into rage mode and deals more damage." Every spike attempt or simple AoE damage hurts. If monk uses Riposte, same thing. In other words, you punish enemy action in a fun non-overpowered way, and battles become more dynamic than "ok this is your role do that from the beginning till end". The point being, I don't want Dervish to be raw-damage dealer as Warrior is. Make that Rending Aura do something other than help in Dervish vs Dervish duels. Servant of Kali 09:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Simply rework to "Strike for +x...x damage, if you are enchanted this attack cannot be blocked." Then keep the damage as is and the skill becomes fairly nasty. -Warskull 02:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, the cannot be blocked if enchanted is probably the easiest fix. This gives it an easy trigger that doesn't have to be juggled with enchantment removal, if it is to easy, the damage can be reduced as well.
The whole preperation removal deal is out of bounds, preperation are not ment to be removed, they are like one only skill effects, but an option would be to make it naturally unblockable, and add +Damage and stance break along with enchantment removal. As the only stance break for Dervish it would become very useful for many dervish builds, especially ones who don't want to sub Warrior. But Dervish is particularly effective at enchantment removal, on foes, and perhaps it shouldn't offer stance breaking as well, though it also lacks interrupts.
Either way, Warskulls idea offers an easy fix with the least friction, and maybe that's best, since there are alot of skills that need attention, and that is all it needs to be viable.--BahamutKaiser 05:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Noo... this skill is very useful as it is. You just have to find a good combo with it. Prokiller88 02:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Reaper's Sweep Reaper's Sweep

moved to User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Dervish/Archive 1#Reaper's Sweep

previous discussion:

  • underpowered because:
    • Damage is ok, condition for deep wound is hard to meet -> not good for pressuring
  • suggestions:
    • lower recharge to 4, 5 or 6
  • last comment:
Agreed, let's not overbuff it. A reduction in the recharge to 5 or 6 would be enough. Until Melandru gets nerfed there's really no reason to run this in GvG in any case. ~Seef II <|> 00:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Make 10 rec, lower damage significantly, unconditional DW. Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I would perfer the recharge reduced to 3 or 4 rather than unconditional DW.--BahamutKaiser 05:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this is meant as a finisher not an opener... the skill will get a lot better if they remove DW from weary23:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Wounding Strike Wounding Strike

This skill is a little lame. It's great to do lots of DW, but that's all you end up doing. It eats a lot of energy overall, and it doesn't do any +damage either so it doesn't help you kill DWed target and doesn't actually spike well. I'd suggest this:

Elite Scythe Attack. This attack deals +4..10 damage. If this attack hits while you are under the effects of an Enchantment, target foe suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds. If target foe already has a DW, you deal an additional +10..26..31 damage. If you do not have an Enchantment on you, this attack causes Bleeding for 5...17 seconds.

This would make it worth the elite slot. Would do small +damage unconditionally, but if the target already has a DW it can spike hard instead so that it's not wasted on a team spike for instance.

Another possibility, imo more interesting but possibly longer to implement, could be to make it like this:

5/0 Target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5..17 seconds. If target foe already suffered from Bleeding, target foe suffers from Deep Wound for 5..17 seconds instead. If target foe already suffered from a Deep Wound, this attack deals +10..40 damage instead and Wounding Strike is disabled for 5 seconds.

So basically you'd chain it with itself, 'wounding' your target more and more. Once you do +damage with it though, it's disabled. You could chain it with stuff like Aura of Thorns to skip the bleeding part for instance (can easily think of Aura of Thorns -> Pious Fury -> Wounding Strike -> Wounding Strike). Or in a team spike, if someone else DWed you'd just receive the +damage from it.

The versatility added to the attack skill would also mean that you could use it for very varied bars including more of the Dervish utility, since you could easily imagine a bar using Wounding Strike as only scythe attack skill and going for stuff like Wind Prayers, etc. Would open up a lot of build potential imo Patccmoi 17:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, spending my elite slot for Dismember or Sever Artery just isn't tenable. In the preview, sure, this skill was nice when not elite but I think it forgot to get buffed when it gained the yellow border. I like the second idea very much, but that's basically reworking the whole skill. ~Seef II <> 17:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
When Nightfall came out, I actually thought this is quite a nice skill. Spammable Deep Wound, something we didn't have yet. But I guess the problem still remains - someone needs to finish target off. I'm ok with Bleeding>DW>dmg solution, but it reminded me of something else.. GW could use a skill effect similair to bear Mauling in Diablo :) Servant of Kali 01:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I really hope this skill either gets one of those proposed changes, or has its recharge upped and its elite status stripped, because this skill does not deserve elite status atm.--Atlas Oranos 18:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Upped recharge and removed elite status would be SO good for Dervish class as a whole, but it's not the kind of thing that happens sadly... Patccmoi 16:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Things could change...--Atlas Oranos 11:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I've said it 1,000 times. Maybe bleeding unconditional and cover the deep wound. -Warskull 03:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be pretty powerful and interesting too. Patccmoi 14:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
A simple resolution would be to increase the rec to 10, and make it so it cripples and causes bleeding. No additional damage. Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Your proposal would still cause deepwound, correct?--Atlas Oranos 08:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Well it could be just like Crippling Slash, except with DW instead of Crippling. If enchanted deals bleeding and DW for same duration, increase the recharge a little. A double condition would be good enough. Even with a 6 second recharge, if they remove DW which would probably cover over bleeding (because it should), it can be reapplied frequently enough. They can even include, if not enchanted deal X-XX damage. Since removing all of your enchantments is often not reliable becuase it requires frequent enchantment removal abilities and sabatoges your allies efforts to protect you, it isn't much of an asset, like the current bleeding effect......--BahamutKaiser 05:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
This skill is not very powerful, spamming deep wound isn't as good as it sounds on paper. This skill be "Elite Scythe attack. If this attack hits you inflict a deep wound and bleeding for 5...17..20 seconds.If you have an enchantment on you this attack deals 5...17...20 damage." 23:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
One of the big problems here is a that a derv cares little for inflicting bleeding, even if it is AoE. Maybe if bleeding was replaced with something of the order of crippling or cracked armor, then it might see a little use. --Ckal Ktak 09:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion that I'm reposting from GWO: 5/0/4, Elite Scythe Attack. If Wounding Strike hits a Bleeding foe, you deal +1...11...13 damage. Otherwise, this attack causes Bleeding for 5...13...15 seconds if it hits. If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, you also inflict a Deep Wound that lasts for 5...13...15 seconds. ~Seef II <|۞> 19:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Grenth's Grasp Grenth's Grasp

This skill is borderline playable as it stands. I think removing the cold weapon requirement would push it over the edge, especially on classes that can spam attack skills like a ranger or a sin. Being able to use zealous + this opens up a lot of possibilities. --Symbol 01:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Overpowered skills go here. -- 16:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you suggested that Grenth's Grasp is overpowered? O_o --Symbol 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Grenth Grasp > Crippling shot
Uh, no it really isn't. Maybe when cripshot was 15e, as it stands crip shot >> grenth's grasp. The called shot + grenth's combo is nice, but isn't worth the loss of the secondary now that cripshot is 10e.--Symbol 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Just give the skill more flavor. Add something like: "..and target foe losses 1 shout/enchant/ or echo". Servant of Kali 13:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
If target is under the effects of a shout, they die. Then we can un-nerf paragons and armor. --Deathwing 09:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
lol--Atlas Oranos 10:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
This Spell may see some use on Sns with the advent of Trampling ox. Golden Phoenix strike and trampling ox is pretty sweet. --Ckal Ktak 14:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I have already seen a build using it on the GW:EN skills page, if that combo is nerfed, I will throw a fit though, because atm its slower, and its easier to defend against than the stupidly overpowered sp combo(only reason I feel its overpowered is the ias/expose defenses).--Atlas Oranos 18:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Zealous Vow Zealous Vow

This skill is just too inflexible to be worth it ATM. Since it cancels your energy regen you really need to hit the 14 wind breakpoint to make it efficient, and any sort of shutdown just screws you over since you're stuck sitting there with a static energy pool.

Suggestion: Make it 4r, so wind can have at least one cheap, spammable enchant that does something useful and can be fodder for Pious Restoration as well as a cover enchant. Being able to take this enchant down at will depending on the situation would make it SO much better. --Symbol 04:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

o.O i don't really think that's underpowered... there's just noone who wants to use it, because there's no use for its effect. might be funny for an A/D to spam repeating strike, because you don't need crit strikes that much, then. - Just_m3 User Y0 ich halt sig.jpg 16:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a good skill, not so popular in pvp because it's not overpowered but does help with high-cost attack skills. It's cool to spam free attack skills with high enough wind prayers :) - IH 22:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not popular in PvP because it's inflexible. It's inflexible because it requires you to hit reliably and when you're not hitting it is a huge liability. --Symbol 23:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
5/.25/4 could be interesting true. Zealous Vow actually allows for pretty insane pressure damage. Victorious Sweep->Mystic Sweep->Eremite's Sweep every 4s is a LOT of pressure. The main problem is if you happen to run out of energy, you're kinda screwed, and you do need 14 Winds or it all fails. Blocks/Blind kinda screw you up too, and in organized PvP it's hard not to face some. And ofc the fact that you're not Melandru/Balth's means that you're much more of a softie so it's not easy to keep the pressure going. But it's still one of the few Derv elites that i actually consider good. It could use some small tweaks maybe, but i'd mostly tweak that in the sense that you gain 5E at something like 10-12 Wind and not 14. Just raise it to 2..6 instead of 1..5 and then you can have more realistic stats, or if you go high Winds you actually have solid energy when you hit, and the extra energy you gain when you fail to hit can cover for when you're blocked/missing. But a lot of Derv elites need help before this one imo. Patccmoi 14:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The skill only needs a small boost, that's all. In PvE and AB it's actually a fun skill. Put Eremite's, Mystic, Protector's Strike, Watch Yourself, Whirling.. and you have build which consists of maniacally presssing 1-2-3-4 ;) It's good in areas where deaths are fast, outside of that, from what I've seen, it's not gonna do much. --Servant of Kali
The main problem is this turns you into a tanking Assassin with no defensive skills in PvE. --Deathwing 11:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
With spammable Watch Yourself? I don't think so. Servant of Kali 13:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
It's because its an elite energy management skill, I'm pretty sure Elemental attunement and SOMETIMES Glyph of energy are the only ones that are elite that are used.
Offering of Spirit for instance too.. Servant of Kali 10:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The only difficulty I see with this is that it pretty much forces you to invest heavy in wind and scythe to be effective. If your going to go to town with attacks that isn't a problem, I'm sure there are ways to work it. As for the energy problem, using one of the many instant recharge signets which remove an enchantment can easily remove the effect to ensure your energy regen returns after your tapped out. Most notably, Signet of Pious Restrain which was introduced in EotN, which offers the addition of crippling, and function of the same attribute, a good choice when your basically bound all your energy to your attack use. Theres also Pious Light, which may be out of your investment pool..... but anyway, it seems to work acceptably.--BahamutKaiser 05:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Mystic Healing Mystic Healing

Ok, this skill isn't exactly underpowered. In fact, its potential is huge and seriously overpowered (if you could reliably have 8 enchants up on you at all time, Mystic Healing is far superior to LoD without using your elite. With Arcane Zeal at decent Mysticism it even becomes a FUEL for your energy while providing crazy party healing). The problem is that to reach this potential, you have to do extremely gimmicky builds where you basically stack enchantments you have no use for simply so you can power this thing. This just leads to degenerate gameplay and makes it very hard to fit in a balanced setup even though it's a very nice spell, but should it become playable, it's currently broken.

What i'd want to see is to reduce the randomness so it can be more seriously considered while making it so you need slightly less enchantments to make them efficient. Ofc, this would come along with a nerf to their full potential.

So my suggestion would be:

Mystic Healing 5/1/4 Heal yourself for 40..88..100 health. For each Enchantment on you, one other party member within earshot is healed for 25...73..85 Health (the same party member cannot be healed more than once).

The recharge is lowered and the range is too. This way, it becomes less of a strickly better LoD in optimal conditions. It becomes an unconditional self-heal, making it MUCH more interesting and reliable as a skill because you know that you can always rely on it for this at least. It's still not as good potentially as Natural Healing or Dwayna's Touch for a self-heal. But if you're enchanted, it offers some party healing as a bonus, but being within earshot the randomness is much more controllable. For example, in a split, you know that you'll always heal people near you. A Dervish with Mystic Healing in a split and 2 enchants on himself could RELIABLY heal everyone there. In a big fight, if you have 3-4 enchants, it can help greatly at reducing pressure. Mystic Healing would then become a very interesting skill and a good reason to invest in Wind Prayers without having the potential to be far better than any other party healing if you meet some stupid requirement of having tons of enchants. Patccmoi 18:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I would love to see some kind of reliable heal for the dervish, Natural Healing really restricts gameplay, and if this would possibly be given the same amount or even a little less healing than Healing Signet, I would jump for joy.--Atlas Oranos 18:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have watched [DrE] you will know this skill is so overpowered if you run it right in a D/N orders build. You have an 87 hp every 4 seconds with orders aiding in your main team and splits do you know how imbalanced it is. Pressure teams and any sort of degen do nothing to you. However that is its limitation you have to run it in on a dervish that is entirely devoted to that skill.Keep as is imo. 23:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Burton

I made a D/N build using it perfecly a long time ago too, keeping up Dark Fury, Order of Pain and Mystic Healing spam non-stop with AZeal and some other enchants (hell, we were running that in GvG about 1 month after NF was out). But that's the thing though : you have to devote a bar to it, and in this case it's OVERPOWERED. Which ISN'T good. Seemed like you didn't read my original post, cause that's exactly what i said. This skill -is- overpowered if you build for it or underpowered if you don't. That's not good, this just leads to stupid gimmicks. And so my suggestion is to make this skill interesting in a more balanced setup while keeping it viable but slightly nerfed in 'abusive' setups. My suggestion makes it solid on a dervish with 2-3 enchants (where atm it's worthless) but slightly weaker than it is now on a Dervish with 8. Patccmoi 14:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Meditation Meditation

The recent buff to this skill didn't seem to do a whole lot for it. It's absolutely terrible energy management, for a conditional net of -2...2...3 Energy when you lose an enchant and conditional health gain. In builds where this skill would be useful, you have skills like Arcane Zeal or other enchants ending often enough to provide solid management. Otherwise, Natural Healing or Signet of Pious Light has this beat pants down. It's too klunky to use as either healing or emanagement (and sucks at both), but I've really no suggestions to offer - maybe unconditional healing (trades off with Natural Healing, longer recharge and 10 less Health, drop an enchant) or target ally? It can't be used on secondaries to any good effect anyway. ~Seef II <|> 00:25, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep still sucks, I would shoot for a 4 second recharge and drop the energy gain abit to compensate.--Atlas Oranos 17:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
8 energy with an enchantment removal is fine at 4 seconds, that would really be a minimal use IMO. But because of the touchy nature of enchantment removal, and the search for a healing skill, I would suggest that it offers a reduced amount of healing and energy upon enchantment removal, and also have a 3 or 4 second recharge.--BahamutKaiser 05:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Increase the healing to 150 at 15. Prokiller88 01:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Aura Slicer Aura Slicer

In principle, this is a good skill, since a target with cracked armour is likely to be one of your team's spike target's, and therefore going to have prot enchantments thrown at him a lot, so a skill which removes them is all well and good on paper. However, cracked armour is one singular condition, infinitley easier to remove than a hex and can be difficult to apply without a communing ritualist or areomancer helping out, this makes Rending Sweep a much more attractive option, which can even be used with any melee weapon, with only the bonus damage being affected by scythe mastery. This skill therefore needs an edge over rending sweep to make it attractive, something to set it apart or give it a different application. Obvious buffs include:

  • Reduce recharge time (effective but boring).
  • Improve damage to make it a useful general purpose attack skill (We have enough of these though)
  • Make it remove 1...3 enchantments (Possibly dangerous to the game's balance)
  • Make it unblockable against foes with cracked armour, or make it remove an enchantment regardless of if it hits or not (Would be handy against shield of deflection, to be sure)
  • Make it do additional bonus damage if an enchantment is removed (Scraping the barrel a bit now).
  • Make it a 3/4 cast skill (Questionable usage still)

There's my opinion, if anyone thinks of any other improvements, do say so. --Ckal Ktak 10:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It has a couple points of +dmg over Rending Sweep. I'd be wary of buffing the damage with the current physical meta though, but the utility is pretty powerful. I think after Cracked Armor is rethought we can start talking about this skill now. Buffing it now and having it be imba later is a lesson I think Izzy and crew don't want to learn... thrice. ~Seef II <|۞> 06:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Dervish Skill Balances

moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Hey Izzy, this is the one that made the Please Read This Izzy. I was wondering what you think about possibly making deepwound a more accessible condition for the Dervish. The only GvG viable one that people run is the Melandru build, Wounding Strike is an elite dismember(conditional also), and Reapers Sweep is... meh. Are there any thoughts of possibly including deepwound in the new skills from GW:EN, making the elites more desirable, or changing old skills?--Atlas Oranos 02:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that an enchantment, that cause a deep wound to all adjacent foes when it ends, would be pretty cool since it you could combine it with some at the moment unused attack skills that remove an enchantment when you use it like Pious Assault.
My suggestion here is to change Grenth's Fingers to cause a deep wound instead of cripple since there are way better possibilities to cause cripple for the Dervish so this skill is not very useful in its current form anyway. And compared to all the assassin's deep wound skills, it does not sound imbalanced to me this way.

I also want to suggest some more changes to some other enchantments that basically have their effect when you cast it and when they end, because i think that this is an interesting concept which requires some skill both at choosing the right skills and also while playing it, since you need to care about enchantments that other players cast on you for example. Those enchantments also work well with the primary attribute of the dervish: it gives you back some energy when they end, but not if you reapply them before they do so. Unfortunately, most of those enchantments are crap at the moment, because they were nerfed to oblivion after the abuse at the nightfall beta-event. There, those enchantments where used in a spike mainly because of the huge area damage they made (as far as i know, the recharge was also way shorter).
So here are finally my suggestions to make some of these enchantments useful again, without making them overpowered in a brainless spike build:

Balthazar's Rage: This skill gives you some healing and damage, but at the moment, both effects of this Spell are not worth the skill slot. The damage is pretty poor: Even with a spike involving lots of players, it will not kill, and in most cases, a scythe-attack will do more damage. The healing is also pretty poor if you look at the requirement and the fact that it hardly give you the health when you really need it.
It would be really cool to swap around the healing and damage effect like this:
You are healed for x..X health, for x Seconds, this enchantments does nothing, when this enchantment ends, you deal x..X holy damage to all adjacent foes for each successful hit while under the effects of this enchantment (maximum: X damage)
This also allows you to drop the recharge a bit without making the damage spam-able but make it useful as a decent self heal.
To get the damage, you must not spam the skill since reapplying will reset the hit counter. You charge it while attacking (like a warrior who charges his adrenaline) ending up with a spike using a skill that makes you loose one enchantment. With the right numbers, it could even make some fun Dervish/Warriors using a Sword or Axe viable since the faster attack rate will allow you to hit more often.
Compared to Mirage Cloak, which also offers you some damage when it ends (even without the requirement to hit foes, but with higher costs) and some self-defense as a secondary effect, it doesn't seems overpowered to me this way.

Staggering Force: This skill is currently not worth the skill slot. It would be pretty cool, if this skill would cause a knockdown to all adjacent foes when it ends instead of just causing weakness which is almost useless is most cases. Of course, the recharge should be raised to prevent it from being overpowered this way.

Dust Cloak: I'm not sure about this, maybe just increase the range and/or the blindness duration. --Lunk 12:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Those are actually some pretty decent suggestions all in all, at least the concepts.
Grenth's Finger adding DW would possibly be too powerful though. The problem is mostly causing DW straight through a spell, which might be really strong in spikes and goes through all the standard defenses (hell, it'd even go through Spell Breaker). But i'd really like another non-elite DW option for Dervishes too. Maybe something like 'When it ends, target foe is crippled for x..y seconds. If target foe is already crippled, target foe suffers from Deep Wound for 1..3..4 seconds instead'. This way it would be really short DW and requiring investment in Wind, but at least the potential would be there. I dunno if the idea is good, but i think just straight DW would be exagerated.
Balthazar's Rage would be much more interesting the way you put it. You can't make the damage too high though, because it could potentially spike really hard and you can easily control when it ends, but say 2..7..8 damage per hit would be pretty good. If you hit 10 times in those 20 seconds, it's a 80 Holy damage spike you can add. I'd say it would need a max though to prevent abuse (for instance, an Avatar of Lyssa with daggers could potentially hit a LOT in those 20 sec). Something between 60-80 damage would seem like a nice maximum cap. And keep the range Adjacent.
For Staggering Force, i'd do something a bit similar to what i suggested for Grenth's Finger : 'when it ends, adjacent foes suffer from Weakness for x..y seconds. If a foe was already suffering from Weakness, that foe is knocked down'. This way if they were already in weakness it knocks.
Not sure for Dust Cloak, i wondered before what to do of this skill too. I think the main thing i'd do is reduce the recharge so that you can use it more often. Patccmoi 15:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: Dust Cloak: if enemies are already blinded, they suffer Cracked Armor? I think adding Deep Wound and knock down (and Cracked Armor) is going to make those skills too powerful (especially the knock down - right now it falls outside of the things the dervish may do), but then again they are not being used that much right now, so...I like the suggestion for Balthazar's Rage, but it definitely needs a cap on the damage. Erasculio 15:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Enchantments like Dust Cloak would be cool if you could cast them on other allies, even though it would lead to another smiting like problem. Anti Oath 01:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Grenth's Fingers:"Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are Crippled for 4...9...10 seconds.. For 30 seconds, this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment is removed prematurely, all nearby foes are struck for 1...3...4 cold damage for each second this enchantment was in effect."
Dust Cloak:"Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are Blinded for 1...4...5 seconds.. For 30 seconds, this enchantment does nothing. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes are struck for 1...8...10 earth damage for each attack that missed you. (Maximum 120)"
Staggering Force:"Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 20...84...100 earth damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes are Weakened for 5...13...15 seconds and foes already suffering from weakness are knocked down."
--Deathwing 02:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Do not make the AoD Spike Teams come back. I will be very upset. Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 07:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Pious Renewal Pious Renewal

moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Plz Buff... barely worth the elite slot... O and revery the HoTo Update plz. EDIT: O and plz nerf guardian or shield bash or sumthing.. those mo/w's and mo/a's in HB are annoying 02:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It is pretty damn good when you are spamming Orders. And this is in the wrong place.--Deathwing 03:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Why not bring an unblockable attack if that blocking is so annoying...really, warriors should do that way more often IMHO, instead of whining about block. Nicky Silverstar 08:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Find one worth carrying just for a few builds you may or may not run into and they'll do it. Armond 09:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Swift Chop, Furious Axe, Irresistible Blow, Leviathan's Sweep, Soldier's Strike...they're all pretty decent. Sure, they may deal less damage, but that is the point. My point however was, that if every monk takes a block skill (and I now it is not just monks but a lot of players) then why not bring anti block skills? They're worth the effort for sure, because without them, you will likely do no damage at all. Nicky Silverstar 14:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Or just do what everyone else does and interrupt the blocking skills. Interrupts are universal, they're always going to be good. Just have your mesmer or ranger or P/Me or whatever interrupts you have on your team take care of the blocking. 16:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
'Cause interrupts work great on Shield Stance or Whirling Defence. - User HeWhoIsPale sig.PNG HeWhoIsPale 16:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd say the downsides on those skills balance their power (like not being able to keep them up all the time) and with Wild Blow they should be no problem at all. Or just use casters to deal damage for a change...Nicky Silverstar 21:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Harrier's Grasp Harrier's Grasp

This skill is very useful, but because of the long recharge its not going to be used in builds that often.

"Enchantment spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, attacks against moving foes also cripple that foe for 1..7..10 seconds." 10e 1/2c 18r 18:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Zealous Sweep Zealous Sweep

moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Misc Skill Tweaks

Reduce the charge to 6 seconds. The max energy gain for this is 9 energy and most of the time in pvp you don't even hit 2 targets at the same time. 15:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This is the skill tweaks section, you want to post this in the underpowered section. --Ckal Ktak 13:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)