User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20070816

Assassin

Dark Apostasy

reduced casting time to .25 seconds

Just what this skill needed. Jigoku 12:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I like it. The energy scale is kind of off. 10..4 is pretty steep for enchantment removal. A slight buff to 5..3 would make the skill more viable at lower levels of Critical Strikes without making it too potent.--Skye Marin 16:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what it needed. In fact it's even scary right now, but i think there's enough ways to shut it down (EDenial, strip enchant, anti-attacker stuff, etc.) not to have it turn in a second Grenth. But it's scary enchant removal. Still, worth seeing how it goes now Patccmoi 16:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Not quite enough, the high cost of maintaining this skill means the initial investment should probably be dirt cheap. 5e, 1/4c and a slight buff to duration would really help it. It is an elite, it needs to be elite worthy. -Warskull 17:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It is elite worthy. The thing you have to keep in mind with this skill is that when you lose energy on enchant removal, you also GAIN energy (you crit). If you use Zealous, or Critical Eye, the net energy loss on enchant removal is around 0. It also has a very good synergy with Critical Strike which also happens to refill your energy bar. I have no energy problem running it Patccmoi 17:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No it is not, you don't quite fully grasp the concept of elite worthy. This costs me my elite slot. That means I can't take shadow prison, assault enchantments (a far more effective enchant rip), aura of displacement, or any of the other strong elites. Why would I currently run this? The initial investment is too high and the duration is fairly short. This needs to be a very efficient and effective enchant removal to be elite worthy. -Warskull 17:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Assault Enchantments and Dark Apostasy have quite different approach. Don't really see a point in equalizing these two or comparing them in this case. As a matter of fact, I would say Assault Enchantment is much more limited skill and more specific in use. It's something I'd use in Fort Aspenwood on Luxon side, but not in let's say GvG where I'd rather pick Dark Apostasy if I have to choose between these two skills. Servant of Kali 21:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Why wouldn't you take this? Sure, Apostasy is passive enchantment removal, but the only way you can reliably remove an enchant is with Critical Strike, and if they're blocking you it won't do much good. If you do an unblockable combo then Assault is an extremely spammable full-enchant strip that ignores anything they can use to stop you --66.67.187.203 21:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You are forgetting Wild Blow. But Warskull is right, this skill is still not worth the elite slot. Amendment: But that's a fine with me. This skill should sort of suck, or else you end up with a better version of Avatar of Grenth.--Drekmonger 21:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Assault Enchantments, you have to have it confused with something else. Take a look at it again. All you have to do is land a dual attack (pretty easy, expose, black x, dual) and then you can rip all enchantments every two seconds for 5 energy. You can't complain about block because both with have the same issues with block. -Warskull 02:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well that's not exactly true. Wild Blow in Dark Apostasy is a sure enchant removal, straight (unless you have some miss hexes ofc). I won't say Assault Enchantment is bad at all, it's at least as good and in many situations better, but it's not working the same way either and mostly you can't chain someone while spamming Assault. With Dark Apostasy now, i can do GFS-WS-Critical Strike over and over to pressure while i do enchant removal (and 2/3 hits being unblockable and having a fair chance to crit with Crit Strike at 14 and Crit Eye means you can get rid of most block enchants efficiently). When you go Assault, you can totally prevent reenchantment of a target after your dual strike for 15s, BUT you drop your pressure nearly totally too. You become an enchant removal bot that doesn't really contribute to anything else, because using attack skills means dropping your dual attack mark, and you're locked on target. You also have to stop to cast it too so it's hard to keep up with a target even if you want to. Dark Apostasy allows for more constant pressure and edenial so that you directly contribute to the damage on the kill. Assault Enchantment is more do a small combo + spam mass enchant removal while OTHERS kill the target (which isn't bad at all either because the enchant removal is so good). You also have Shattering Assault which is spike + enchant removal at same time and with GFS-WS-SA it's ALSO very good now cause you can have a fully unblockable 4s recharge combo stripping stance and 2 enchants and doing ok damage. I think that Dark Apostasy still has its place though compared to the 2 others because of how CONSTANT the enchant removal is and how you can keep doing any attack chain you want and still have it triggering in the process and switch target really easily to strip enchant fast, while Assault forces you to stop attacking and target lock while Shattering Assault forces the chain and a full combo on target. Personally i PLAY with Dark Apostasy and i find it fine now. I have 0 emanagement problem and i don't even use a Zealous Weapon (my current Dark Apostasy build uses Flame Djinn's Haste for cover enchant and Conjure Flame to have solid pressure). So if you think something else is wrong with the elite, ok, but i don't really understand the energy cost part which i never find a problem when i play with it Patccmoi 03:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Assassins aint really one of those professions I studied more extensively so I have to rely on other peoples builds for the time being ;))) I tested Dark Apostasy in GvG with the skills you use, and so far the impression is "wow, this skill rules!" :) I will remove Critical Eye now, and see how it does without that, but since I put in Flame Djinn (didnt have it first battle only second) I think energy should be fine. I really didn't notice any energy problems, and with Flame Djinn criticals will drastically increase (casters usually kite so it's like free crit hehe). I think this skill can be safely removed from Underpowered section. With Critical Defense and Wild Strike, I even soloed a Ranger few times, even though I had no self-heals :) Was fun, love it. Servant of Kali 11:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Fox Fangs

reduced activation time to .5 seconds.

Good change. The recharge and/or damage is still a bit meh though. Shendaar 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, as long as the recharge is above 4s Wild Strike will always be used over (it's unblockable AND removes a stance on top which can potentially make your dual unblockable if that's all they had for it). To compensate for the lack of stance removal, this one should have .5s activation and slightly higher damage, something around +10..40. Otherwise there's no reason to ever use it over Wild Strike i think Patccmoi 17:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm liking this one a lot more than Wild Strike actually, the faster attack speed feels almost like a 'skip the offhand attack' step that lets you get to your duals faster. -Ensign 20:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Double recharge, less damage, no stance removal for .5s activation? I agree that the .5s activation is nice, but i can't see why you'd take it over Wild Strike unless you have a really long recharge combo on the rest. Imo the stance removal utility of Wild Strike is more interesting, stance removal in general isn't too easy to come by except on Melandru Dervishes and it's nice to stop Natural Stride, MoR, Soldier's Defense, etc. and can allow your DUAL to go through, which is much more important. Patccmoi 21:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What about dropping the recharge and swapping the damage with Wild Strike? -- Gordon Ecker 21:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Needs a bit more than that. Try 50-60 dmg and 4 second recharge.

If you're talking about dueling Assassins in isolation somewhere I agree with you, and that Wild Strike is a lot better. But in a larger fight, I'm less concerned about dropping a stance sometimes, and more about getting as much damage in as possible before my target gets protted. Fox Fangs creates a pretty big pseudo-spike with the lead attack and lets you land a dual faster, which will beat the prot more often. The recharge difference might be a deal breaker though. -24.7.86.220 20:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if the recharge is lower the rest could be fine. I totally agree that stance removal vs damage compression is 2 utility that can be as valuable, and the slightly lower damage makes sense since the skill activates faster. But when you have double recharge, it breaks the pro/con ratio Patccmoi 20:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah playing around with the skill a bit it feels like you want the recharge to be no higher than 6s. Really, it should be as low as possible given its functionality, since if it's ever the choke point in your combo something is wrong. -Ensign 20:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see why any leads or off-hands need over 4 second recharge. The only thing that they are there for is to build up to a Dual, so it's not like people are just going to repeat lead -> off -> lead -> off. Golden Lotus Strike is an exception to this rule though I guess. --Deathwing 15:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the shortcut off-hands want a longer recharge. But for the basic 3-step leads and off-hands, yeah, longer recharges are killer. It feels like the entire point of a 3-step combo is to be pretty spammable, and all of those 8 and 10 second recharges kill that utility. Golden Lotus is just bad...it really wants to be a shortcut off-hand for enchantments. -Ensign 18:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally i'd put all 'shortcut' offhands on 6s recharge and all other offhands requiring lead on 4s. Then you have straight offhands on 8-12 depending on quality. Seems fair, and would make them much more balanced in comparison to each other. If one is too strong/weak this way, well balance the other stats so that they match the recharge. But 10s recharge offhands like Jungle Strike suffers from the same thing too. It's great, i'd WANT to use it, but 10s recharge kills it. On 6s i would Patccmoi 03:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I've been playing around with it a lot and the 8r is just too much I think. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

How about a slight damage increase? :) --Deathwing 23:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

For what? Wild strike is 5 more dmg. So what? This needs a better recharge time. I like the skill change, works really well with my moebius build in PvE, just fix that recharge time. --72.74.237.104 23:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd seriously consider this at 5-6r, though it'd still be a tough choice between fox fangs and wild strike. But 8r is a bit too much. Maybe you could sneak in a tweak sometime this week?  :-) --Symbol 00:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Aren't all "fangs" line supposed to deep wound? Twisting fangs, golden fang, etc. So why not just make the naming consistent and add deepwound and forget about recharge and all else? :) Such a simple fix.

I wonder about that name... fitting with the naming process, it does sound like it should cause deep wound. Did it ever cause deep wound before? Maybe in development? -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if it's a tough choice between this and Wild Strike, that's a GOOD thing. It means that both are valid option. It's so much more fun to actually HAVE tough choices instead of being like 'oh, this is the best combo'. I think that if the recharge goes down to anything between 4-6 seconds, Fox Fangs will be pretty much on par with Wild Strike, both having different utility. I'd like the damage to match, but i don't think it's absolutely necessary, damage compression increases its offensive value a lot too Patccmoi 13:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Theres few leads to compress this damage with. Thats the problem. Impale compresses damage with Dual Attacks, which works great. Compressing damage with Jagged Strike fails. --Deathwing 13:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Golden Fox Strike is actually decent now Patccmoi 15:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget, compressed damage goes well with Unsuspecting Strike too, as long as it's the first hit. Desperate Strike might even be useful as a secondary lead. But for any of that to be viable, Fox Fangs needs at least a 6sec recharge, if not all the way down to 4sec. As it is, you'll need to bring a second off-hand to keep fighting; you end up with a half-decent spike right off the bat, but it's one with no good conditions; then your foe is stuck at near-dead, while you're waiting for recharges. By the time you can spike again, they've healed to full health, and/or called in buddies to take you out. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Golden Fox Strike

reduced recharge time to 4 seconds.

Very powerful now. GFS-WS is very very good. The GFS-WS-CS combo is now exactly the kind of lead-offhand-dual combo you'd want. I'll give you that, you made one viable one and i'm quite happy ^^ It's even now on Obs in GvG Patccmoi 16:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Very good change on this one. Shendaar 17:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

CS... as in Critical Strike?--Atlas Oranos 00:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Combine with the new Apostasy, and your choice of utility skills, and you have a solid damage + enchant strip build. Critical Strike gives the energy back. You could use Shattering Assault instead, but both approaches have their advantages.--Skye Marin 00:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Assassins are not made for pressure. Just look at the DB + MS build. Despite its superior dmg, it's still less popular than the Shadow Prison for a good reason too. They can't take hits. So LOD like this needs more than just a lowered recharge time to 4 second. I say it needs at least +35 dmg since it's unblockable. But reasonably it should have a +40ish to make this reasonably useful.

As I said on the update thread, GFS, WS, Shattering assault +Energy recovery of some sort. Debuff sin. --Ckal Ktak 12:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Simply bringing Critical Eye and 13 CS works well as e-management. Zealous Daggers are a good idea as well, and you'll normally be able to rip through your chain at top speed without much energy problems. I run a build with GFS > Wild > Death Blossom, and I don't have energy problems at that speed, even when maintaining Mystic Regeneration and two other enchantments. Pick cheaper enchants for GFS, and you're even better off; Wind Prayers has Featherfoot Grace for running people down, and Attacker's Insight to help with energy too. I can't wait to get my hands on Shattering. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Iron Palm

reduced Energy cost to 5.

This is a decent change but recharge should decrease a bit (maybe 15 seconds). --Shadetz X 12:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you can reduce the recharge with Deadly Paradox in its current form.

Agreed. A change to Deadly Paradox and this reduced to 15s recharge would make it very good. One thing though is that it's now usable on warriors. For example a Hammer warrior could do Devastating->Crushing->Iron Palm and NOT lose his adrenaline for a second kd Patccmoi 16:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You need the target to be hexed for the KD to work though. A 15 recharge would actually make this playable imo, but you have to kill DP first. Shendaar 16:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs a hex or condition according to the description. I agree with changing DP and then giving this a 15s recharge, other deadly arts skills could use something similar too. skaspaakssa 16:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Right. Forgot about the condition part. But yeah, it really needs a 15 second recharge to be playable. Shendaar 17:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The recharge on this can be tweaked once Paradox is nerfed into the ground. --72.211.155.160 20:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

15r would be good, I agree. But a damage boost might be better. If the scale was something like 10...85 damage it might start looking good in builds with high deadly spec, and there would be less possibility of abuse with deadly paradox. --Symbol 23:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Jagged Strike

increased Bleed duration to 5..20 seconds.

I still think this skill could use some conditional + damage on already bleeding targets. - HeWhoIsPale 13:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh well I guess every update needs at least one non-sense buff/nerf right? You could make the bleeding last 60 minutes and I would still not use it. Shendaar 16:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you are seeing why this skill is bad. In fact, you actually indirectly nerfed it this patch by decreasing the cooldown on unsuspecting strike. All this skill has going for it is that it is 5e and 1r. You could make the bleed duration 40,000-70,000 seconds and I still wouldn't touch it. It needs something else. -Warskull 17:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Jagged Strike: 10e 4r, "If this attack hits target foe suffers from bleeding and crippled for 1..10 seconds" or 5e 1/2c 4r "If this attack hits target foe suffers from bleeding for 1...15 seconds" or hell 5e 1r "If this attack hits target foe suffers from bleeding for 1..15 seconds. If that foe was already bleeding that foe takes an additional 10...30 damage and this attack is disabled for 2 seconds. Any one of those would be at least a step forward. increasing the bleeding is 1 step foward 1 step back... The first one would give it an ok snaring effect, the second one would be good with the fox fangs to skip really quickly to a dual attack, and the last one would at least give it some dmg --72.74.237.104 23:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That last one would be mildly decent, minus the extra recharge time - spamming Jagged on recharge even if it gave +30 damage wouldn't be broken, it'd be sort of lame like Repeating Strike. -Auron 23:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't need a lot of +damage, just a little bit. 5e, 2r +3...15 damage. This would turn it into an appealing bleeding source. -Warskull 14:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless you're using it for PvE it needs a lot more damage. Like about 40-60 ish at least.

35-45 should be the limit. The only other +60s require 90% health + or you to be under 80% or for your combo to be done... Personally I would say go with this: "If this attack hits, Target foe is struck for + 15-35 damage and suffers from bleeding and crippled." Then it's actually a good skill. I dont even think the crippled is pushing it. One mending touch removes it and above that the crippled is on top so one condition removal and its gone. Oh yeah and raise recharge to 4-6 is we do that. --72.74.237.104 14:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That's funny I always thought that crippled is >> 15 ext. dmg. Hmmm. Especially with jungle strike and trampling ox scheduled for GWEN. Your suggestion would make this even far! more powerful. May be give this a +20 dmg and make it cripple too.

Hmm now that I think about it: Jagged Strike -> Jungle Strike -> Trampling ox -> Falling Spider -> Twisting Fangs. OMg PLZ IZZY! --24.181.225.165 19:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Jungle Strike

reduced activation time to .5 seconds.

Recharge going to 8s at least to match Leaping would make it MUCH better. It's a good change though if you want to use it as an alternative offhand in a Temple Strike build or something. Could still use slightly lower recharge imo. Hell, i'd like 4s, but with .5 activation it'd be too strong. 6-8s would be great Patccmoi 16:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would lower the recharge of both this and leaping to 6 seconds imo. Shendaar 16:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep the lower the recharge to LMS and make LMS unconditional and we've a deal.

Tried it out with Black Mantis Thrust, certainly not bad damage, but I think the implementation of Trampling Ox is what will push Jungle Strike into the meta again. For now, LMS will do - and it's not that great. ~Seef II <☎|→> 06:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Locust's Fury

reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

Still a very niche skill, but at least you don't have to worry about it being removed too much. Shendaar 17:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You also don't need to invest much in CS anymore and so you can actually run 8CS and 14+ DM to have more chance of double attack, and still have enough point to put in other attributes. It's a good change, even though it likely won't see major play Patccmoi 17:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You can't really make this skill good without pushing it too far. Assassins live and die off their combos, while doing a combo you don't dual strike unless you specifically use a dual strike skill. -Warskull 22:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, despite the buff, the use for this skill remains exactly the same as it has always been: Either E-denial with Flurry and "Fear Me!" or possibly pounding a foe to dust with Barbs, Strength of Honor, etc. Still not very much though --66.67.187.203 22:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It's still possible to use attack skills with this though when it's like GPS-Twisting Fangs. Allows you to spike every 15s while the rest of your build can be dedicated to pressure (usually you want some +damage buffs and adrenal stuff like Fear Me! to make Locust's valuable). It still doesn't mean i consider this a solid elite, but it's about as good as it gets for the skill concept Patccmoi 01:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It will need that and a 33% IAS and then that'd be a "solid" elite.

IAS might be too powerfull, but I wouldn't mind some bonus dmg.

Solid? try overpowered. With 33% IAS for THAT LONG and THAT RECHARGE it would allow sins to attack 33% faster forever. Not to mention it would blow critical agility out of the water with is considered and overpowered PvE skill (Not "it gonna be nerfed" but in PvP that would be insane) --72.74.237.104 14:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Make the "Locust" part of it steal health. Nothing huge, just like 1...7...8 --Deathwing 16:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not ready to say that this is good, but i played around with it for fun with 15 DM and 8 CS, using an IAS (Heket's Rampage). You double strike so much now (80% with those stats) that it seems like you do every swing, and with some +damage buff (i used +13 Strength of Honor) it's EXTREMELY scary DPS on softies. It's like having an Axe/Sword in IAS hitting for 70-100 every swing. Just using GPS-Twisting Fangs for spike combined with an IAS can cause really big damage overall. Funny with Warmonger too, i was on a monk and interrupted nearly all .25s cast spells. But you'd have to make a fairly gimmicky build to have this viable, it likely won't ever find it's place in a balanced setup because you rely a lot on being buffed by others, possibly multiple others. But you CAN make this the highest DPS build possible i think Patccmoi 13:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Flail's an option for a A/W, you'll have no trouble charging it up without access to Strength... and to keep your DPS up, you can avoid dagger chains and simply bring a few warrior melee attacks, like Wild Blow (which would have a nice side-effect of e-management, even though it drains your adrenaline). -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Palm Strike

reduced Energy cost to 5.

Good change. Just need to find a decent combo that could make use of it now. Shendaar 17:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It's good, but i still think the recharge should go down to 8E to match GPS. But it's a good start at least. Oh, one thing that might actually matter even more than the recharge, although it might not really be possible, would be to eliminate the aftercast. It makes it hard to combo well when your opener has an aftercast related to it that even IAS can't deal with Patccmoi 17:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The aftercast is really annoying for that kind of skill. If it can't be removed, than maybe reduce the casting time to compensate? Shendaar 17:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It seriously need more than just aftercast removal that that's a very good start. Both Palm Strike and Moebius Strike are used in O-D-O-D combo and they both deal similar damage. The advantage of Palm Strike is very limited, in that It can start the chain, but you still need the other offhand similar to how moebius works. However Moebius has a 2 second recharge and can recharge all other attack skills when target is below 50%. Palm Strike needs so much more to compete with that. Say a 4-5 seconds daze with 8 seconds on recharge and no aftercast.

How about: Target foe is struck for 10..120 damage and suffers from a deep wounds for 1..10 seconds. This counts as an off-hand attack. 1/4c 10e 8r--72.74.237.104 17:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Deep Wound with your palm? That is a Chuck Norris ability. --Deathwing 17:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Worked in Kung Fu Hustle. -- Jioruji Derako.> 22:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsuspecting Strike

reduced recharge time to 2 seconds.

Now it has pretty good synergy with Empty Palm. Right on.--Skye Marin 16:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What makes you think players want to use a 1 time use per target skill every 2 seconds? Reminds me of the Ride the lightning "buff," completely pointless. If you really wanna buff this skill, make it unblockable to have synergy with wild strike's buff. 66.245.86.221 16:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Another useless buff. Why would anyone want to spam this skill anyway? Either reduce the energy cost or make it unblockable. Shendaar 17:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

How is it good synergy with WotEP? That elite only covers the cost of Off-hands and Duals. This attack is a Lead. --arredondo 17:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Because then you have free energy to spend on this skill. Lower recharge means less downtime for DPS assassins and the chains they use.--Skye Marin 00:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What about dropping the cost to 5 and changing the effect to "If this attack hits, you strike for +X damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional Y damage and lose 5 Energy.", or emphasising the "unsuspecting" part by making it also deal bonus damage when it hits a blinded or knocked down foe? -- Gordon Ecker 21:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

i like the buff actually, in the case that your chain gets thwarted and the target happened to have gotten healed or whatnot, OR if u needed to change a target, the skill is practically always there charged. its a buff none-the-less, would u prefer a longer recharge time?

I would prefer a longer recharge time and a lower energy cost. Spamming this twice as fast serves very very little purpose despite what you might argue. If this thing gets blocked and you try to use it again, it is very unlikely you can finnish your combo. That or do something more original as a poster above noted... lose 5 energy if it hits foe above 90%, trigger the extra dmg when target is blinded. etc.

I think this skill was fine as it was. It' still fine now, not better, not worse. --72.74.237.104 00:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Still a fine skill, yeah. Just needs more options for combos; Fox Fangs creates a decent, fast spike with this on a max-health foe; too bad Fox Fangs takes so long to recharge. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm what? This is about unsuspecting strike. This skill is exactly where it should be. High conditional damage to high health foes so it can't really kill. --72.74.237.104 17:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I was refering to the rest of the discussion up above; some people mentioned how the fast recharge was useless for the effect. As it is, the skill doesn't see much use, but you're right, it's right where it needs to be in power level. I was saying, what this needs is more off-hand attacks that can really follow up on all that damage, like Fox Fangs. -- Jioruji Derako.> 22:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, using this skill on multiple targets is impossible, because everyone who plays assassin is bad at knowing what's going on or multi-tasking. I would love to see assassins with depth one day, instead of "press these 6 buttons in sequential order and your target will die" strategy. There are great skills in the assassin line which unfortunately are overshadowed by how linear the profession is. Shard 09:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Way of Perfection

increased duration to 60 seconds; decreased casting time to .25 seconds.

An excellent buff for both PvE and PvP sins, I now see no reason at all for any PvE sin to NOT have this on their bar. One of the few things I liked about this update :/ --66.67.187.203 18:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

How about the fact that its still very minimal conditional healing. --72.74.237.104 23:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The most I will use this for is an enchantment for GPS, and Fox. Healing needs more.--Atlas Oranos 23:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Move to CS imo. |GD Defender / contribs 14:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, moving this to CS would help it ALOT as most of the builds that use it are CS and their stats are usually spread thin with high CS and DM. Maaking it CS would allow it to function well in the builds that will use it. --Midnight08 09:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My build uses it and isn't CS. --Deathwing 12:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm using this in a dedicated Critical Strikes build, and I can still manage 9 in Shadow Arts. It's nothing fancy as far as healing goes, but it really helps you last longer in a fight. With a move to CS, it would make critical builds awesome, but being able to have all your damage, e-management, and healing in just two attributes might be a bit much. -- Jioruji Derako.> 23:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If this is your only healing, you better have a monk. --72.74.237.104 23:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

How often do you play without a monk in PvE? Or even the majority of PvP? --Deathwing 00:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're still going to need a monk, but since when have Assassins not needed a monk? Consider WoP e-management for your monk; he doesn't need to heal you nearly as often as without it. And the longer you can keep your health up in a battle, the less often you'll need to retreat to use something like Feigned Neutrality. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I would use this in 2 situations: Farming or soling shiro xD. I kinda like the buff, it would be nice to see more healing in it though, but then again, sins arent meant to me tanks so I don't think it needs it. --72.74.237.104 17:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Way of the Empty Palm

reduced recharge time to 10 seconds.

This skill could've been good with a 20 second recharge let alone a 10 second one nice change!Jigoku 12:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Good change. It is still hard to come up with a decent bar to go with this skill though. Shendaar 17:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Always can go with the classic WotEP->Flurry->GPS->Repeating --66.67.187.203 19:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill has some potential now. It allows you to drop critical strikes and go pure dagger, deadly arts. With 15 DM , 14 DA things like dancing daggers - wild strike - death blossom - impale become really nasty. Impale does 95 damage + deep wound. Dancing daggers is a TOTALLY RELIABLE lead that does 99 damage. Even things like siphon speed lasting 19 seconds are really nice. And because the only thing you spend energy on is DD you can use expensive skills like mirage cloak to good effect. --Symbol 00:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Only way I can think of to fully exploit this would be to run an assassin with low crit strikes, high dagger mastery and just spam the heck out of repeating strike. Then you need an energy dump for the rest of your stuff. That doesn't even sound halfway decent though. -Warskull 02:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would you do that? Repeating strike sucks...however there are skills in deadly arts that don't suck: impale, siphon speed, even dancing daggers. You want to go DM + DA to use those skills, not repeating strike. --Symbol 02:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya i think this skill is mostly useful to power high energy utility while using attack chains regulary still. I remember for example using it with Mark of Rodgort when it was 25E and it allowed it to work. But now Deadly Arts has good stuff too. Skipping Crit Strikes altogether can be nice too for sure. It's likely not gonna become mainstream or anything, but at least it's quite usable now Patccmoi 03:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Usable for what? Spam twisting fangs? Because seriously that's the only offhand/dual that's non elite that costs more than 5 energy. Oh wait twisting fangs has 15 sec recharge, does this skill make twisting fangs recharge immediately too?

The thing is, if you use this and say you use Wild Strike-Death Blossom for offhand-dual over and over. That's 10E used every 4-6 seconds that you're saving. 10E every 4-6s means that you can use a 10E utility in the same time without hurting your energy more than if you would be comboing normally. If you use for instance GFS-WS-DB, that's 15E/4s you're spending in optimal conditions. WotEP reduces it to 5E/4s, which saves you 6E/4s, which is nearly 4-5 pips of regen. It's a very solid emanagement skill overall, as long as you have something valuable to do with the energy Patccmoi 20:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Or you can bring an offensive elite to help you do what you do best: rip the heart out of your target in less time than it takes them to heal. To be honest unless Repeating Strike gets buffed or the oldschool GPS/HotO/FS/TF comes back this probably won't see use. |GD Defender / contribs 06:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Sins don't need an offensive elite. They kill just fine without it, which is one of their strengths. If you insist that 1-2-3-4-5 spike is all they do, then yeah, WotEP won't look so good. But that's pretty shortsighted IMO. Things aren't the same as they were when factions came out. There have been a number of buffs to deadly arts utility, to the point where it actually starts to look attractive once that investment gets high, and having the freedom to use expensive skills from your secondary is also useful. This may be a niche elite, but what it does it does very well indeed. --Symbol 10:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm far from the 12345678 accusations, but I must say that sins are for spiking. They just aren't built for pressure. Moebius DB sins are as close as they get, and they still need pretty heavy monk attention when someone decides to get rid of them. I don't see this functioning in spike capacity because it lacks offense, and Repeating Strike isn't exactly good pressure due to lack of utility. I don't see any EotN skills that would make this better either. So until something gets changed, most likely Repeating Strike, I don't see this being used much, even in niche builds. |GD Defender / contribs 14:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I think even buffing repeating strike won't make the build popular. But at least we will not have Two useless skills to worry about. May be WoP should affect more than just attack skills. Or unless there's a non-elite uber attack skill that costs 25 energy and hit for +40, give daze, and blind, then that'd make this skill more useful.

Seriously, what is this obsession with repeating strike? No one is talking about repeating strike. Repeating strike is a bad (or rather, badly designed) skill. Just let it go already. WotEP allows you to consolidate your attribute spread by dropping CS, to use expensive or spammable dagger attacks on recharge, and to allow you to use your natural energy regen + whatever you get from hitting stuff to power expensive skills from your secondary (I like Mirage Cloak myself). Try using dancing daggers as a lead when you have 14 in deadly arts. It HURTS. Try using impale when it does 95 damage _before_ the deep wound. It HURTS. A 19 sec siphon speed allows you to keep three people snared permanently. Dark prison is a shadowstep + 7 sec hex snare every 30 seconds. There's enough useful stuff in deadly to make it worth investing in, the problem before was that if you wanted to use dagger attacks you needed 9 CS mininum to get anywhere. Now you don't. And even if you don't like deadly arts there's other stuff you can do. Want a beefy conjure or strength of honor? Sure, and now you get a pretty decent cover enchant to go with it. Want a decent self heal? Now you have the points to make it work. This skill has a hell of lot more potential than people are giving it credit for. --Symbol 16:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Heh hes right. Conjure flame + WotEP + Chain + mark of rodgort = high dmg with no costs.--72.74.237.104 17:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Wild Strike

this Skill is now unblockable

Very strong. And totally superior to Fox Fangs, even though the other has .5 activation. The 4s recharge makes it fits perfectly with GFS and also prevents stances that could block your dual afterwards. If Fox Fangs wants to compete, it needs 4s recharge too and higher damage. Patccmoi 17:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Great skill now. That's the kind of Off-hand/Lead the assassin needs to make the lead->off-hand->dual chain viable. Shendaar 17:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I like the application for players, but this skill indirectly nerfed PvE sins as well: Not only do we, the PvE sins, have to deal with Afflicted exploding in our face after we kill them, but now one of our few defenses from the mass of Rangers with Marauder's Shot and extremely painful Hammer warriors, Flashing Blades, is now removed with little difficulty by the masses of Assassins. Previously there was only a 1/16 chance of them being able to remove it (hit with lead and Wild), but now it's a puny 1/4. Thanks a lot :( --66.67.187.203 21:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Who cares about PvE? Go whine somewhere else please. If you can't deal with PvE monsters which are btw very easy in this game, go play Tic Tac Toe. Servant of Kali 21:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Who cares about PvE?"? VERY many people, and the effects on PvE are also something ANet has to consider before they change a skill. Have you even TRIED playing a PvE sin before? It's often difficult to get out of the city because you are, on a constant basis, being blown up by Afflicted that die, Blinded by those damned Rangers, being useless against Am Fah sins, being spiked down by very many different foes, etc. etc. Flashing Blades ends up being one of the only ways you can even get OUT of the city because it's one of the few things that will reliably prevent you from being hit, since the Mesmers have Drain Enchant, the Necros have OoA, which makes their entire party strip something, they will hit eventually, and the rangers are running around with BHA, so when you try to reapply you get interrupted anyway. Besides, this is where Izzy receives feedback on updates, and so I give my opinion, so watch the GWW:NPA --66.67.187.203 22:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I had no huge problems finishing Factions with an assassin, and this is prior to the rather significant nerf to the Afflicted's soul explosion. I don't think I've ever equipped Flashing Blades on my bar. Not once. You might try an alternate build/set of tactics -- I can promise you don't need Flashing Blades.--Drekmonger 22:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course I don't play assassin in PvE, PvE consist of a bunch of mobs which you kill fast; it's not suited for mesmer nor assassin (and I had mesmer). When I said "who cares about PvE" I didnt mean no one plays PvE but that when it comes to skill balances PvE should be irrelevant, really. PvE-only skills are fine, but balancing skills for PvE nobody will like. PvErs wont because their favorite mass-killing skills will get seriously nerfed, and weaker skills in PvE will get buffed but hey, since these skills would require more knowledge and planning guess how many whinning you are going to hear about "gimme my mindless 1-skill-mob-kill back". Complaining that skill balancing will have bad effect on your PvE is totally silly especially considering normal PvE got nerfed even more after Hard Mode came out, and considering some PvE skills now are insanely strong (like paragon one, but that's ok im not complaining). If you can't do PvE even with Afflicted explosions you deserve to die, as simple as that. Off the top of my head I can think of several ways to deal with afflicted but none are just mindless run-in-tank-kill-proceed. Oh and I didn't even mention the tricks to abuse AI by making sure they don't go on you but your teammate instead. Anyway, assassin in PvE is like added challenge, it's not profession which is made for PvE, so if you find it too difficult don't play it, choose some easier ones. Dont blame skill balancing, it has nothing to do with your pve experience. Servant of Kali 23:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent change, I'm ignoring the drama over pve on this one.--Atlas Oranos 00:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Pls take the pve vs pvp conversations back to gwo where they belong kthx.

The reason why I'm not posting to GWO is 1) I'm perma banned there (and keep it that way) 2) I dunnot wish to discuss PvE nor listen to PvE people. The reason why I'm posting to this wiki, in skill balance areas (and all relevant), is because I don't want to deal with PvErs. So when someone comes here and says "wtf why did you nerf Avatar of Grenth, now it's even worse in PvE!" then I get very very irritated. PvErs can vouch for stronger and more numerous PvE skills and I'll support them, but here, no, thanks. I'm a huge fan of the following skill to please PvErs: "Armageddon. Signet. 1 second cast, instant recharge. All enemies in the zone DIE." Servant of Kali 20:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

PvE'ers have just as much right to post their thoughts here as you, so stop acting like skill balance revolves entirely around PvP --66.67.187.203 00:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's the problem with democracy, everyone can express an opinion even about things he/she knows nothing of. Compare Pattcmoi's and the opinions of most of you anonymous authors. His opinion is actually based on common sense, reasoning and experience. Unlike opinions of those based on "uh im not a pro but i feel i should mark the territory as well". So please spare me, im not a democrat, I'm intolerant elitist. Servant of Kali 08:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that things I say aren't from experience? In any case, this has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with the fact that this page was created for feedback, not voting on whether or not to change something --66.67.187.203 16:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Feedback on PvP balance of skills, yes. PvE is balanced by balancing monsters, not skill. Otherwise, how exactly do you think Power Leak should be balanced for Hard Mode in PvE? :) I agree that some skills are made for PvE and probably will never have use in PvP (like Farmer's Scythe) but that doesn't mean the other skills should be balanced with PvE in mind. Again, balancing PvE = monsters. Balancing PvP = skills. Servant of Kali 20:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a separate page can be created for "pve balance feedback" so it can be ignored more easily by the rest of us who actually want to discuss balance? And wikis are inherently not a democracy; they are a meritocracy, where people listen to those whose ideas have merit. The idea "buffing Wild Strike is a bad idea because it makes Am Fah Assassins imba" does not have merit, especially in a discussion of (PvP) skill balance. --72.211.155.160 00:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Could we please not group the "buffing Wild Strike is a bad idea because it makes Am Fah Assassins imba" people in with all PvE'ers? Not all PvE'ers think like that. I am mostly PvE, except for recently where PvE has bored me, so I have done RA/AB. Understanding skill balances takes game understanding, not leet PvP skill. The kind of people who get flamed for that kind of stuff are the people who run tanking warriors in PvP, monk bars with no self defense, and echo'd Meteor Shower in RA. Not all people who play PvE are like that, some do actually understand the game. --Deathwing 00:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)And when did this become a PvP feedback page anyway? ANet deserves feedback about the effects of their changes wherever the effects are to be found. Also, Am Fah assassins don't use Wild Strike, I only mentioned them about the sins because they use Flashing and you basically can't do anything against them because they block all your attacks and blind you if they get the chance, other than that they're mainly just annoying. However, Afflicted are much more capable of dealing damage and the fact that they remove most defenses you can muster (OoA, Drain Enchantment, Wild Strike) make it even worse, but at least before you could properly defend with stances --66.67.187.203 02:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it so hard to bring something to counter their builds?--Atlas Oranos 20:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's see... necros and mesmers remove enchants like Crit Defenses (OoA and Drain like I said above) and now sins remove stances easily with Wild, so Flashing is kind of out. So you suggest we all use SF then? --66.67.187.203 20:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No, people are saying to learn to play an assassin. If you are trying to tank with an assassin you fail. With how stupid the AI is, you should be able to get away with rarely getting hit. --Deathwing 20:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't try to tank with sin, I try to keep my ass from getting kicked (especially since I always go with henchies) --66.67.187.203 21:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to label me as an sf button masher, really. If its bothering you so bad you can either A: Call your target so the henchies soak up most of the damage(before contact, I usually do that if I dont want enchant strips on me) or B: Use a heroes to aid in defeating multiple characters(IE: Making your elementalist a blind surge). I honestly think flashing is not worth its slot, but I recommend you take some kind of condition removal if your henchies/heroes cannot remove it in time. Also, if a certain monster/human/whatever else >.> is giving you trouble like you seem to have experienced with the wild strike comment, you can take your own blind as an Assassin. You cant be strong against 3 different types of characters like that, without seriously gimping your damage.--Atlas Oranos 00:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I offended you with SF, but I meant Shadow Form, not Searing Flames --66.67.187.203 01:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

>.>, sorry for taking offense... but on terms with the skill balance, I think they made the afflicted to be as annoying as possible. From what I remember pveing through factions it seemed to be mostly a slew of fetch missions and running back and forth for no reason, but yeah, the afflicted are one of the most annoying types of enemies in gw.--Atlas Oranos 19:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ritualist

Ancestors' Rage

decreased casting time to .25 seconds; removed Exhaustion; functionality changed to: "For 1 second, nothing happens. When this Enchantment ends, all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 30..130 lightning damage."

Decent change. Devish can use this for a free cast every 8 seconds with high enough Mysticism. --Shadetz X 12:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I love the change. Less stacking = good for the game. Paragon skills should be tweaked in a same way, they should have a normal bonus, not the one which only works if the whole team is full of Paragons. As for Dervishes using Ancestors, It's doable but I don't see it as something spectacular or game breaking. Dervishes have plenty of good secondaries they can take, Ancestors is now one of them but by no means overpowered IMO. Keep in mind that, as with any attacking profession, the amount of time you spend casting something is the amount of time you dont spend hitting. So, as for Dervish, the total damage is Ancestor's Rage minus normal scythe swing. Usually it's something like that. Servant of Kali 12:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Very, very good change. Keeps it as a strong pressure for Channeling Rts that can't be turned into a spike skill (at least not with other copies of itself). It's mostly strong for a Rt using it on a Derv than a Derv using it on himself btw. When a Rt use it, it's a free 4-5E for the Derv on top of having damage around him. Channeling Rt using Splinter on Derv and Ancestor's Rage repeatedly can really be scary Patccmoi 17:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect change, the skill doesn't suck and it is no longer a spike skill -Warskull 17:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Love it- the 1 sec timer makes using it as part of a melee spike much easier- it even makes it possible with a hero providing the rage Tarlok 18:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is way too good now. Since when do 130 damage spike skills cost me 5e with a .25c? Keeping it from stacking only prevents people from rubbing how imbalanced it is in your face by running 8 copies. -Ensign 20:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No kidding. --72.211.155.160 20:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem is just energy cost. It was reduced to 5E because Exhaustion was balancing it. Now that there is no Exhaustion, it's FULLY worth 10E. It's a great skill, i wouldn't want to see the effect nerfed, but the energy should definitely be higher than 5. A comparable Ele spell would easily be 15E Patccmoi 20:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with Patccmoi, needs 10e cost back. -Auron 07:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

lol why? Then no one can run it on a Snarer! So unfair! Readem (talk*gwwcontribs) 07:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Snarer? Do you mean water ele? That's an odd place to put Ancestor's, but why is 10e prohibitively expensive for an ele? --72.211.155.160 08:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Rt/E Freezing Gust flagger/snarer, semi-popular in GvG. Mostly Restoration (WoR/V) and Water Magic though, with points in spawning to increase WoWarding's duration and points in air for Storm Djinn's... Or at least I think that's what Readem's talking about. I don't see how it would have enough attributes to spread to make Ancestor's any good. Regardless, I like this change a lot, but it does need 10e again. |GD Defender / contribs 14:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know those guys, although most of them seem ele primary these days. Still can't figure out why one would run Ancestor's. But, yes, it needs 10e and a longer recharge. Even at 10e it's still a 0.25s cast 130 damage spike skill. --72.211.155.160 18:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion it needs a longer cast time more than it needs the higher energy cost or lower recharge. I made some comments on the update discussion page... er, kinda as soon as it was released. This skill is too good in this form. Yesitsrob 15:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)I think 8 recharge is good, but a bump up to 10 or 12 wouldn't be objectionable. Making skills decent as opposed to good isn't what Guild Wars needs at the moment, in my opinion; we already have hundreds of decent to bad skills that never see use. Also, can't cast on spirits ftl. |GD Defender / contribs 06:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

In GvG most things are killed by a combination of melee beating on them and caster damage fired in from the midline. One of the most common ways to do this is with Lightning Orb: 15e 2c 5r, 140 damage at 16 Air vs AL 60. (I quote those figures only for comparison; only the most shamless eles run 16 air.) Ancestor's Rage is 5e 0.25c 8r, 137 damage at 16 Channeling, and is AoE, and gives energy to the spiker if it's used on a Dervish. The only thing that stops Ancestor's from being as common as Lightning Orb is now is that eles, and the air line in particular, are more useful than ritualists. Skills shouldn't be balanced by being surrounded by crap; while Ancestor's may not see terribly much play because rits are harder to find a place for in balanced builds than other midline classes, it's still a very strong skill. --72.211.155.160 08:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Mmm. I didn't compare it to Lightning Orb, and on that note it's not obstructed by walls either. You're right, anon, but in my opinion unless it's used it doesn't need a nerf. Wait until people start abusing it, perhaps? I haven't seen a single ancestor's rit since the buff. |GD Defender / contribs 14:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what Snare you are talking about, as WoR Rt Flaggers were just after meta nerf. People ran Ancestor's because it ownz with a Derv Frontline. Also, they were E/Rt. Readem Sorry, I'll stop trolling now. 02:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Anguish

reverted skill to its original behavior.

I will comment on former exhaustion idea here for all spirits. Now, I don't play HA so can't comment that game area, but I watch GvGs here and there and play them, and can't really say that Rt spirits were used, anywhere, outside of some heal spirits exclusively on Hero teams. Spirit spam was a major problem in RA for instance, but there's a catch22 - RA battles are too short for exhaustion to have a desired effect. That means that even with exhaustion, people used spirits, and it worked. By the time exhaustion starts hurting you, the battle is over. Thus these whole exhaustion thing did nothing, IMO. I base this on observation, didn't play with spirits lately. Servant of Kali 12:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I actually enjoyed the exhaustion change, it made this skill a little more useable, at 10 energy I could use it without really noticing the exhaustion all that much. Perhaps the 25-E could use a little energy buff? I mean if take a look at what Erasculio said on the prior update you can see the real issue with this spirit and why it's not completely reliable. Xitoahc 01:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Defiant Was Xinrae

reverted skill to its original behavior.

Doesn't matter. It's the skill concept that fails. Patccmoi 17:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh well you can keep it up forever, but Pat said it best.Streetp 00:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest changing this skill to something like this: 'Elite Item Spell. Hold Xinrae's ashes for up to 5...13...15 seconds. While you hold her ashes, enemy Spells that the caster and the caster's allies use against you are disabled for an additional 5...17...20 seconds. When you drop Xinrae's ashes all nearby foes will have a skill disabled for 5...17.20 seconds.' --Shadetz X 07:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats too much for the drop effect. Just 5 seconds would be more than enough. Think about it. Your going in for a spike in a spike team. You cast this and run in with it and drop it near the monks and it effects both of them, GG team, you just single handedly defeated everyone else. I would give it either a very small ADJCENT disable or a recharge for yourself. --72.74.237.104 00:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I assume that in the Shadetz's post, 'a skill' means '1 random skill'. That's not overpowered, IMHO. --Shillo 08:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Disenchantment

reverted skill to its original behavior.

I really prefered this with Exhaustion. Made it easier to fit in a non spirit spammer setup where 25E really hurts you. I liked how the exhaustion on those 25E spirits allowed you to bring one of them without destroying your build and only penalized you when you brought many. I think Anguish didn't deserve it, but Disenchantment and Dissonance at 10E with exhaustion were much more interesting. But ah well, i didn't use it before at 25E and i won't start now, not like i lose anything from before the test week. Patccmoi 17:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy, they de-nerfed R/Rt! :pppp Servant of Kali 21:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

R/Rt Spirit Spammer with Escape FTW --216.113.208.132 01:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I preferred the exhaustion over the 25 energy. --Deathwing 01:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. Either way, you're not planning to run two of the big spirits on one bar (I can't afford 50e for two spirits, the same way I can't afford double exhaustion for two spirits). I'm normally running on the bottom half of my energy bar anyway, weather I'm healing or spamming spirits. And I could finally keep Anguish up infinitely; it lasts about 45 seconds at high attribute, and the exhaustion only lasts 30 seconds, so it was easy enough to not only re-cast, but move it around the battlefield. Maybe that's a reason why it was reverted, but I really liked being useful in PvE as a spammer for a while there. -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Dissonance

reverted skill to its original behavior.

Spirit Burn

functionality changed to: "Target foe is struck for 5..50 lightning damage. If any Spirits are within earshot, Spirit Burn causes Burning for 1..3 second(s)."

The set on fire part is a good change. It will definitely nerf Ritualist team spikes. But the change has made this skill a little too weak for individual use. I think the unconditional damage should increase by 10 lightning damage at every level, equal to that of essence strike. --Shadetz X 12:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I love it. Still have to test it, but the lack of spike potential is awesome, and burning goes nicely with the skill name. Also, burning ignores armor, and can be combined with skills which work with burning. Servant of Kali 12:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Again perfect change, I think you actually get slightly better damage than before with the loss of spike possibility. -Warskull 17:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This needs a shorter recharge now that it's a pure pressure skill. -Ensign 20:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

50 damage + 3s burning is 92 damage, so not as much damage as before. There's really no way to fix a lot of these rit skills without raising the spectre of stupidway in HA again, but a start would be to either drop the recharge as Ensign suggested or add some other utility component (possibly blinding for 1...3s as well?) --72.211.155.160 20:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm... before it did 50+40 at 15, which = 90. It does basically the same damage now if you're doing it alone, and the bonus damage is armor-ignoring. How is that not as much damage as before? --66.67.187.203 20:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

IIRC, the skill did something like 110 damage before. I'm not talking about 1 week ago, I'm talking about 1 month+ ago. Servant of Kali 21:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see the unconditional damage raised too, but I can live with this skill now. I'm feeling it should have a 4s recharge though.TGgold 13:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason it doesn't is that then it would pretty much gimp Immolate since it costs half as much, the condition is easy to meet, and it would only be 1 second longer recharge. Othe than that, exactly the same --66.67.187.203 14:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The condition is only easy to meet if you build a team with 23984729834 spirits for HA. Is the condition easy to meet in GvG while retaining a flexible team build? --72.211.155.160 18:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Dump a Destruction or Life spirit next to you and you've got 2 things: The spirit for your Channeling Magic Immolate and a fallback point to blast meleers with Blind using Rupture Soul if necessary --66.67.187.203 18:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I have an idea. Demostrate to us that this works. If you try it, you'll see it's just one of those cool theoretical strategies which fail badly in practice. I've played Rt enough to express serious doubts about "Destruction" "Rupture Soul" "fallback" "stretching to 3 attributes if using Life"... Servant of Kali 20:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you're confused. The last guy didn't mean the skill "Fall Back!", he meant a spirit to fall back TO where he could use rupture soul for the blind. --216.9.84.146 03:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not confused, I know what he meant. I said "fallback" with small "f", I didn't mean Fall Back either. Servant of Kali 19:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Wanderlust

reverted skill to its original behavior.

Wielder's Strike

increased recharge time to 6 seconds; decreased unconditional damage to 5..50; decreased conditional damage to 10..40; removed exhaustion.

Very good. Makes a decent pressure nuke for Rts without using spirit. Seriously the change to all Rt problematic skills (Spirit Burn, Wielder's Strike, Ancestor's Rage) is about exactly what i wished for. The 3 of them now are great for pressure but not for spike, which is awesome for Rts in a balanced team but less for gimmicks Patccmoi 17:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is still a decent amount of damage, this will put the 4 man rit spikes in check. The HA rit spikes can still spam the crap out of this. 8, I would shave a little more damage off of it and add some recharge time. This might still be a little dangerous and let some rit spike seep through. Considering how long it took for rit spike to even get addressed last time, we can't have that happen again. -Warskull 17:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ritspike doesn't have to be nerfed into nonexistence; now that Cry is on a 15s timer (and MoR is still out there), one mesmer can singlehandedly shut down this crap. Besides, against a ritspike 90 damage should become 60 damage once people dig out their shields. Are we really that scared of spikes in the meta that low-level nukes like this are worrisome?--72.211.155.160 20:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow, now this 5 energy spell only does 90 damage. Perfectly balanced when compared to most elite ele skills which have 6 second recharges... I mean, who really does these skill balances? It's hard to believe professionals can be this bad at 1st grade math. At 5 energy, 6 recharge, this skill should only do 60 damage. Shard 09:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

60 dmg? Are you drunk? Servant of Kali 19:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

By that logic, Lightning Orb is imba. It recharges even faster and does even more damage, and unconditional! The only balance is the high energy cost, which would actually matter if Attunements and Energy Storage didn't exist. Also, most ele Elites with low recharges have other bonuses. Lightning Surge has AP, and blinds; Mind Shock does more damage, has AP, and knocks down; Mind Blast is free for the most part, and gains you more energy then you spend; Mind Burn does more damage, AND burns; Water Trident knocks down, and recharges in three seconds. And all of those Elites recharge faster then six seconds. I fail to see how this is any better then those. -- Jioruji Derako.> 10:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, everyone compares professions and screams "nerf" or "buff", when that's a very flawed logic in any situation. People want heals of a ritualist to match a monk's, overall damage of a warrior to match an assassin/dervish, and things of that sort. An assassin is not a warrior, a ritualist is not an elementalist, etc. They use similar skills in a very dissimilar way. -- Txzeenath 10:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Xinrae's Weapon

reverted skill to its original behavior.

Xinrae's reverted ... so from thrash this skill went back to utter thrash. Please make game skills USABLE. No one needs 200 skills per expansion out of which 100 are never used, and never meant to be balanced so people use them. It just creates confusion but I guess it's a good selling point. Servant of Kali 13:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Meh come on give it a chance...dont just give up on it and revert it back.--72.74.237.104 22:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What was the thinking here... "No one used the new buffed version so we give up." maybe? Nice. --TimeToGetIntense 23:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow no way, no one used it! As I said, if it was 3x better than it is now, it still would not get used. It's worse than Diversion, which even aint elite. Servant of Kali 23:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

While i agree with the sentiment, about 90% of the elite skills in the game are worse than Diversion, so that's not a really fair comparison =p Patccmoi 03:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I wish I had a way to flag certain skills as "crap, always has been crap, always will be crap" so I don't have to keep scrolling past them. Do I really have to look at the Swirling Auras of the world when I'm looking for Shatterstone?

LOL Pat, but hey, at least those other 90% of skills don't pretend to be Diversion elite-wannabes! And they do the job. This elite skill... I mean, your enemy could say "hey, we gonna bring caster spike against you, bring it on", and you still wouldn't bring Xinraes because it wouldn't do anything :) Servant of Kali 09:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless there's some sort of delay I'm not aware of where direct damage spells complete and then take a moment to deal damage, Xinrae's Weapon would disable and halt casting of the spell on all spikers using it except the first. That only helps, though, when all spikers are using the same spell, a la Rit Spike. Could have killed it singlehandedly if Izzy had buffed it a little earlier. |GD Defender / contribs 15:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Xinrae's Weapon is elite, and only stops a spike if you guess correctly and preprot someone with it. Cry of Frustration stops a spike cold, every 15s, period. Doesn't sound like too good of a deal imo. Xinrae's is an interesting concept, might be better if it were AoE or something and didn't cost 25e, but as it stands it's just awful. --72.211.155.160 18:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It's so awful that Izzy himself never used it for real, ever. Which makes me wonder why this skill was introduced into the game? I mean, if I were a skill balancer, I would design skills which I would use in at least some arena. Or at least I would put skill which i *know* someone will use. This skill fits into crack-me-up category - "hahahahaah I'll make a skill worse than Mending for a good laugh when someone uses it hahahahhaaha". I mean, did he *really* think anyone would use Spell Shield? It's more like "let's introduce 20 new skills which will lead metagame, and 100 skills which will fill the new-expansion quota and which will be so horrible that I'll never need to bother tweaking them.Servant of Kali 23:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No matter how unlikely it might sound, I use this skill sometimes. Or well, at least tried it in vanquishing Haiju Lagoon. - IronHeart 17:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering that most monsters have a small set of skill, I guess it might work.. but doesnt change the fact that skill needs to be reworked. Servant of Kali 20:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it needs a rework because the type of effect (skill disable) is very valuable in general. It needs a shorter recharge, lower cost, and a disable duration that actually makes a difference (20s or more). Then it will be more on par with some of the best shutdown skills in the game, Diversion and Distracting Shot. Considering the limitation and it being elite, it should be a very strong disable because it can only disable offensive skills while Diversion and Distracting Shot can disable almost any skill in the game on similar conditions and they are not elites. They are also in professions that have many other utilities that are very valuable. The disable of the same skill is valuable, but ultimately is not strong enough to make this skill strong with a short disable, high cost, or high recharge. It would punish teams for doing things like running multiple BSurge eles or multiple Dom Mesmers, but that's not an issue against a proper team. If anything, skills that discourage massing the same professions is good for the game. The one thing I would change about how the skill works is that it currently does not end when a spell is cast on the target. It should just work on one spell and have a very strong effect. If you could maintain it and it did not end on trigger, of course it would be overpowered. That would mean you choose an ally and that ally is effectively immune to enemy spells. A much more effective form of this spell would be one that ends when it triggers and actually has a useful effect and feasible cost/recharge. --TimeToGetIntense 23:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(RI) How about changing it to, "Weapon Spell. For 4...9...10 seconds, the next time target ally attacks a foe, that foe is interrupted. If that foe was using a spell, that spell is disabled for an additional 5...13...15 seconds for that foe and all party members of that foe". The skill would become harder to use (it would require good coordination between the caster and the attacker), at the same time it would become more versatile (it would be able to stop offensive and defensive spells) and would be given a minor secondary effect (interrupting the target) that would be useful even if the main effect fails to trigger, at the same time said secondary effect is too weak by itself to deserve the high energy cost (especially when comparing with Warmonger's weapon). Erasculio 02:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Exhaustion on spirits

Frankly, I don't understand why you changed the spirits back. (except for wanderlust) The exhaustion on them encouraged you to bring only 1 spirit with exhaustion which hurt less on overall energy management than a 25e ritual. I was hoping, you'd try to encourage bringing specific, single spirits rather than spamming the whole mass of them. Oh, and gotta question the Xinrae spells as well. What triggered the decision to change them back? The other spells are fine, however. Perfect solution for AR and stuff. :) --Ineluki 10:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ritualists have ways to deal with high energy skills, but no ways to deal with Exhaustion. This by itself is a good reason to have high energy cost as opposed to Exhaustion, IMO - and regarding spamming, despite those ways to deal with lack of energy, you cannot spam spirits with 25 energy cost and such a long recharge. The problem is that all conditional attacking spirits are too unreliable to be used effectively - unless you hex the entire oposing team, the chance of Anguish striking the hexed target, as opposed to anyone else, is a very small one. Giving Exhaustion for such unreliable investiment wasn't a good idea, in my opinion. This problem is lessened on RA and TA simply because there are less possible targets there, but it's still a huge flaw of those spirits. Erasculio 12:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, spirits are unreliable, but they could easily fix that. Wouldn't you agree that this would be a step in a better direction? Less spirits, but more reliable ones? It can't be too hard to give spirits the hench targeting system... --Ineluki 13:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, a huge definitely for that one. If we had some sort of targeting for the spirits, I would deffend a nerf to all of the offensive ones, then I think we would have more interesting kinds of play. Unfortunately, given how even the hench targeting system isn't that good, I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. Erasculio 18:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Exhaustion does ASBOLUTELY NOTHING to spirit spam, where spirit spam was heavily used (read: RA). I don't count HA as serious PvP arena so am not debating that (yes, unlike HA I do look at RA as PvP arena, sue me). Read my post in Anguish section. Servant of Kali 13:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It does do something to spirit spam: It lets you keep away from the spirit nest for a minute or so and not have to worry about the rit just creeping the spirit forest closer until you have no choice but to eat it. Adding exhaustion to the nukes and Xinrae spells made no sense, the newer changes are much better. However, the changes on spirits punished mindless, degenerate spirit spam builds while actually making builds that rely on one (or even two) tactically-useful spirits more powerful. And rits can't manage exhaustion? Please. Mesmers ran Gale constantly pre-nerf, Warriors have been running Shock for as long as I can remember, and before that they ran the old 5e Gale. The fact that people are claiming that 10e + exhaustion effectively makes something cost 20e seems to suggest that most of the people complaining about it are clueless and/or bad. Riotgear 06:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You obviously have not read a zillion posts on this wiki explaining the exhaustion part. Mesmers have how much energy? Do you know how much energy Rt has with ashes? Warriors use Shock? Have you totally missed that half of their skills are adrenaline based and that a warrior without ANY energy would still cause quite a lot of damage and have nice utility (like Rush)? And then in the last sentence you're calling people clueless?

Besides, tell me where do you see this mindless spirit spamming, in what PvP arenas? In RA, even with exhaustion, they spirit spammed like crazy (yea I've seen it) and I couldn't notice exhaustion did absolutely anything, because by the time it started to hurt them, the spirits annihilated everyone. RA battles are not the kind of battles where you can say "oh let's wait 5 min till his exhaustion hurts him enough", because by the time 5 min is up you can do 2-3games already. Servant of Kali 09:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You're contradicting yourself. First, you tell us that Ritualists have so little energy that you can't manage even a single spirit's worth of Exhaustion (basically never going above 10 energy's worth unless you're trying to force one of the Exhaustion spirits to stay up). Then you tell us that it didn't affect spirit spammers in RA because by the time they built up enough Exhaustion to make any difference their spirit nest was already doing its thing. Which is it?--Mysterial 15:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly did I say Rt's have so little energy they can't manage a single spirit's worth of Exhaustion? Considering the spirit recharge and the exhaustion "time-out", that would be silly, and I'm not drunk. Which is it? I'll tell you - reading peoples post without needed concentration results in LSD-like effects :) Servant of Kali 20:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

So if a Ritualist can manage a single spirit's worth of Exhaustion, what's the problem? That was the exact intent of the change - you're forced to take one cheaper, faster recharging spirit that is easier to use tactically on its own instead of a skill bar full of the things that you simply press as the skills light up, moving a few steps closer to the enemy each time.--Mysterial 22:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

First, as much as I don't like mindless spirit spam, don't talk about it like it's some kind of WMo who randomly uses Space. You don't press spirits 1-2-3-4 unless you want to suck. It's more complicated than that, but I typed it elsewhere so meh. As second, you "being easier to use" doesn't mean "better to use" so I don't see why that would be a point in a debate. Anyway, I dunno, it's 2am and im not gonna debate this now. Im not a huge fan Rt spamming spirits so not really fair I defend that either. Servant of Kali 00:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

General comments

→ moved from User_talk:Isaiah_Cartwright

Dark Apostasy: reduced casting time to .25 seconds. Still not going to be used

Fox Fangs: reduced activation time to .5 seconds. Not bad, still dont like the recharge time though

Not enough to make LOD attractive. The recharge and dmg are still terrible

Wrong, just the recharge is bad.--72.74.237.104 00:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Golden Fox Strike: reduced recharge time to 4 seconds. ok so the unblockable combo recharge times dont match? huh?

Iron Palm: reduced Energy cost to 5. I like it, more usable

Jagged Strike: increased Bleed duration to 5..20 seconds. ZOMG extra bleeding! 1..15 to 5...20! Doesn't make this skill any more usable

Jungle Strike: reduced activation time to .5 seconds. IMO do this to Leaping mantis strike

Not enough to make LOD attractive. The recharge and dmg are still terrible, the conditional dmg isn't reliable with LMS or would require 2 additional skills a hex + BMS.

The recharge yes, it should be 4-6, the damage no, its good enough for me, especially with trampling Ox coming out in Gwen.--72.74.237.104 00:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Locust's Fury: reduced recharge time to 10 seconds. Good change IMO

Congratulation you managed to make a useless skill, um... less useless?

It's not 100% useless, but for the skill concept, its at its max.--72.74.237.104 00:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Palm Strike: reduced Energy cost to 5. Good change but meh i still dont like this skill over the other skip leads.

AFTERCAST! AFTERCAST AFTERCAST. I thought we've been complaining about the aftercast problem for over a year now how the heck did they miss it. Big deal it costs 5 less energy if you're still gonna pause there stupendified in the middle of your spike after using this skill. And if you're not spiking why're you using this anyways?

I agree completely.--72.74.237.104 00:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsuspecting Strike: reduced recharge time to 2 seconds. Ummm why? Doesn't really buff it at all. 4 seconds was good enough but sure...ill take it.

It's good, but now it's just as good? So what exactly have you done here? It's not like this has suddenly become more spammable with the wups 10 ENERGY cost and the 1 time conditional dmg thingy.

I think this skill was good before, didn't need a buff at all. --72.74.237.104 00:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Way of Perfection: increased duration to 60 seconds; decreased casting time to .25 seconds. Good change, was hard to keep it up before and with such a small effect it was hardly worth it

Still hardly worth it with 1) Conditional healing 2) Puny healing when it's met 3) Not even useful as covern ench with 25 sec recharge.

I agree, but it's a step in the right direction. IMO move it to Critical strikes. I kno its not meant for healing but it would make it more worth it. That or raise the conditional healing.

Way of the Empty Palm: reduced recharge time to 10 seconds. Ehhh good change but I dont have energy problems so elite energy management is useless as it is.

Wild Strike: this Skill is now unblockable Best one of them all IMO --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:72.74.237.104 .

Regarding Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike also has a 4 seconds recharge, as does Shattering Assault. In other words, now there is more than one unblockable combo. Erasculio 03:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wild Strike was probably the best one. changes to dark apostasy and the other assassin enchantments may not see much use but still gives the assassin a lot more options and potential to do other things. I still think lead offhands could use some work with damage and recharges and effects but this is deffinatly a step in the right direction--DVDA 03:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The extra bleeding from Jagged is utterly worthless, because the only people that use Jagged are those who use Wild and either Critical Strike or Death Blossom, meaning they will just end up using it less than 5 seconds later anyway. Reducing Unsuspecting's recharge? WHY? How do you expect us to keep up with that energy cost? Ether Prodigy->Unsuspecting? It's completely useless to spam it anyway since it's only good if they're above 90%, and they won't be after the first hit from it, so the rest of the spam just becomes a mediocre high cost lead. I like the change to Wild, but it makes Fox Fangs worthless now except for the 0.5½ second activation, since Wild will remove a stance and deal more damage than Fox, and yet still have a shorter recharge. Dark Apostasy? How many people even KNOW what that skill does, or even that it exists? Giving it a cast time buff won't make people acknowledge it's existence any more than they used to. The change to Way of Perfection, however, will most likely put it onto just about every PvE sin's skillbar, and quite possibly a good deal of PvP sins. Nice work with that change, but most of the rest is meaningless --66.67.187.203 04:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

C'mon, give them a break. People are ALWAYS asking to buff this and buff that but when it comes around, people just complain. You got buffs for a lot of underplayed skills and that's what Anet wants to see; it's boring to see a lot of people run the same builds or even use the same skills. Do you read their commentary? Sometimes the rationale behind some changes are a "Hey look at me!" or "Oh, look at me, I'm better now, how about using me on your bar?" Sure, you might say that no one knows or cares about Dark Apostasy but maybe *now*, people will check it out, because updates make people take notice. Changes like that and to Way of Perfection, Empty Palm, Locust's Fury is to make skills more attractive by reducing the time you spent casting and re-casting the enchantments. It gets people thinking about different builds and most importantly, gets them to think diversely. After all, all the SP sins were getting a few heavy nerfs (although they say they can still work the build) and a lot of these skill changes to daggers opens up more spike/damage capabilities. Personally, I think this is a damn good attempt to get assassins out of their "Shadow Prisons" and start using skills that were good but couldn't compete and now can. Kudos from me to Anet for keeping on thinking. --76.232.152.202 05:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Meh, I like the buffs... you forgot to un-nerf Black Spider Strike though >_> ... nice job anyways :P --J0ttem 09:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with user 76.232.152.202; I just want to say how great these skill updates have been recently. Great job! :D Jigoku 12:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just in response to unsuspecting strike's buff, 2 sec's off doesn't do a lot but it obviously is helpful if you miss with your attack which is going to be pretty common in gvg. They're probably trying to push this skill as the lead attack of choice for the 'new' builds opening up with the assassin skill patches.

I put my skill-related comments up there. All in all, VERY good update. Even though i'd like to see a few more tweaks, i can't actually complain about lead-offhand combos anymore because there's a few viable ones now (GFS-WS being very, very good). At the same time, Channeling pressure zappers are back instead of spike fest Rts, another thing i so dearly hoped for. You made me very happy with the changes there ^^ Patccmoi 17:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments and who ever set up this page <3 :). ~Izzy @-'---- 18:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur. An exceptionally good update. It would be very interesting to know how many people actually used the channeling skills while they had exhaustion. I imagine you've looked at that data, and I'd be surprised if the usage was higher then 30% of what it used to be. ;)

Incidentally it would be cool if you could continue to consider changes for Xinrae's Weapon. There's real potential in that one. Anyways thanks for all the recent changes. It's really made the game much more interesting over the last few weeks. Fro 19:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You missed heroway, don't make start running it. :p -Warskull 22:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol Yeah I'm still working on some Changes. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Jagged strike needs another buff. It could say "Target foe bleeds forever" And no one would use it because its just so weak. Bleeding is 6 dmg per second. at 15 dagger master on a crit strike its about 35 dmg on 60AL. Thats pathetic dmg for a spike or even just basic pressure. Give it something that makes it worth it. Like give it +dmg if they are bleeding or a second condition--72.74.237.104 23:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed still needs some more lol ~Izzy @-'---- 23:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jigoku in agreeing with Anon. Good buffs don't just happen, they take a lot of thought and time. Izzy's come to the wiki for help, unless I'm mistaken, in seeing what the Guild Wars players themselves would like to see happen to the skills, and then filter the good ideas out into the game. Support and suggestions, not condemnation and criticism, if you please, guys. In conclusion, I agree with this update fully except for the Xinrae spells. Moving forward. |GD Defender / contribs 15:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess Izzy must not be looking hard enough, because these buffs appear completely random.

One step at a time, anon, one step at a time. |GD Defender / contribs 06:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm always up for suggestions thus the point of these wiki page. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

=0 plz notice the jagged strike one. +cripple and dmg plz! --72.74.237.104 00:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)