ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Assassin/Shadow Walk
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And I'm an idiot, I need to follow my own advice and read more thoroughly... finally someone who understand that classes should have something they can do that other can't, and in doing so provide alternatives instead of replacements. --Kalas Silvern 10:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I would be alright with this nerf, but other then AB or Aspenwood/Jade, I dont see it used a lot. Is there something I'm missing? --Angelic Loki 10:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- HA spikes with a/d. Sees some GvG use as well. Lord of all tyria 10:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- You don't see it all that much? I see it used quite a bit with D/A and A/D, but I watch observer mode way too much. It seemed to me that almost any GvG-build that wasn't the standard build had this skill on an A/D or a D/A (or sometimes 5 E/A's with Shockwave). And, Kalas, I'm not saying it should be impossible for other classes to shadowstep, I'm just saying it should be a heck-of-a-lot harder for them to -- and if they're really dedicated to a shadow-step-and-return build, they should be using Aura of Displacement, rather than this and Dash. --Kite 16:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- From PLAYING in HA and GvG, I see Dark Prison and Death's Charge much more, since you aren't forced to bring 2 skills to get a shadow step. Dark Prison keeps them in place so they cant kite your spike, and Deaths Charge is just, well, cheap. Its the same cost as walk, but you dont have to step back, which is a big thing, since in HA, being on one side of the map is really the same as the other. You can also Que Charge/Prison, so your spike timing is better. I could see the use in Shockwave, but I see mostly see Charge/Prison there too, having run that build a couple times (I hate it though). I'm not saying I disagree with the nerf, I am just saying that I dont think its necessarily needed, since those other 2 skills can be used to the same effect, if not more potently. --Angelic Loki 02:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the D/A and A/D problem Kite. One of the reasons that a) critscythe needs to die and b) shadowsteps should be insanely difficult to use on a non-sin. @Loki- The spell steps are used more often for spiking- for mobility though, this skill is amazing, since 9/10 times you cancel stance is an increased run speed. And I really don't see much of this in any mode except fort aspenwood (Enduring Toxin is fun there, people don't know their hexes very well and end up degening themselves to death- I use that and this to spike). The other advantage is that this is a stance- which means no aftercast, and that it can be used during aftercast (try it- SoJ --> this --> falling spider, not great, but it's a fun way to open up your spike). And of course, the other thing that is nice about this is the shock factor- try using a 1/4 hex, this, and an IAS of some kind (weapon of aggression comes to mind, though not practical), and you'll start your combo far faster than any other sin that needs a hex and then step. Overall, it actually isn't that imba due to the 30 second duration and the fact that it is nearly impossible to use an IAS with it, while still being good due to being a cancellable shadowstep. --Kalas Silvern 08:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know if non-sin shadowstepping should be "insanely difficult", but it certainly should require a lot of skill(particularly with non-elites). As for Death's Charge and Dark Prison, I don't really watch HA games much (nor am I skilled enough to play in them), so I can't see their influence there. =/ However, Death's Charge is my non-elite shadowstep choice in PvE, and it really is a good skill, from my experience.--Kite 01:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is one of those shadowsteps that actually have a cost. It is the best balanced of shadowsteps. The drawbacks you mentioned are powerful. Don't touch it. Oh, and none of the regular shadowsteps have aftercasts, too. You might wanna look into that. -- NUKLEAR
IIV 15:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Aura of Displacement is much better balanced, in my opinion. This is often much too powerful on non-assassin professions(Dervishes with Wounding Strike come to mind -- however, perhaps it would be more appropriate to nerf Wounding Strike). Also, I had never heard that the other shadowsteps do not have aftercasts. And yes, I will look into that. >.> --Kite 14:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm, maybe they removed the aftercast on the spell ones. Either way, AoD is in no way better balanced. AoD leads to kill combos and reverting at will- this is a positioning skill. It has a TIME LIMIT. You can only go so far. Did I mention the whole "no IAS unless you're using Heart of Fury (lol) or Weapon of Aggression (YAY, 10 Energy and 3rd attribute!). It is in no way OP for ASSASSINS. Shadowstepping for other proffessions is OP in general, this is no exception when used by non-sins. --Kalas Silvern 08:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- I would've written pretty much what kalas said. oh, and the bit about sin splits. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Meh, I meant that you can pretty much send an AoD sin packing with any real enchantment removal(in other words, it's able to be countered). Plus, it drains a pip of energy regeneration. Also, Shadow Walk is easily revertible too, though it requires a second stance(Dash). In addition, AoD is elite -- as I believe, all shadowsteps should have been in the first place, or at least the vast majority of them.--Kite 17:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- I would've written pretty much what kalas said. oh, and the bit about sin splits. -- NUKLEAR
- Hmm, maybe they removed the aftercast on the spell ones. Either way, AoD is in no way better balanced. AoD leads to kill combos and reverting at will- this is a positioning skill. It has a TIME LIMIT. You can only go so far. Did I mention the whole "no IAS unless you're using Heart of Fury (lol) or Weapon of Aggression (YAY, 10 Energy and 3rd attribute!). It is in no way OP for ASSASSINS. Shadowstepping for other proffessions is OP in general, this is no exception when used by non-sins. --Kalas Silvern 08:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Aura of Displacement is much better balanced, in my opinion. This is often much too powerful on non-assassin professions(Dervishes with Wounding Strike come to mind -- however, perhaps it would be more appropriate to nerf Wounding Strike). Also, I had never heard that the other shadowsteps do not have aftercasts. And yes, I will look into that. >.> --Kite 14:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is one of those shadowsteps that actually have a cost. It is the best balanced of shadowsteps. The drawbacks you mentioned are powerful. Don't touch it. Oh, and none of the regular shadowsteps have aftercasts, too. You might wanna look into that. -- NUKLEAR
- I don't know if non-sin shadowstepping should be "insanely difficult", but it certainly should require a lot of skill(particularly with non-elites). As for Death's Charge and Dark Prison, I don't really watch HA games much (nor am I skilled enough to play in them), so I can't see their influence there. =/ However, Death's Charge is my non-elite shadowstep choice in PvE, and it really is a good skill, from my experience.--Kite 01:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the D/A and A/D problem Kite. One of the reasons that a) critscythe needs to die and b) shadowsteps should be insanely difficult to use on a non-sin. @Loki- The spell steps are used more often for spiking- for mobility though, this skill is amazing, since 9/10 times you cancel stance is an increased run speed. And I really don't see much of this in any mode except fort aspenwood (Enduring Toxin is fun there, people don't know their hexes very well and end up degening themselves to death- I use that and this to spike). The other advantage is that this is a stance- which means no aftercast, and that it can be used during aftercast (try it- SoJ --> this --> falling spider, not great, but it's a fun way to open up your spike). And of course, the other thing that is nice about this is the shock factor- try using a 1/4 hex, this, and an IAS of some kind (weapon of aggression comes to mind, though not practical), and you'll start your combo far faster than any other sin that needs a hex and then step. Overall, it actually isn't that imba due to the 30 second duration and the fact that it is nearly impossible to use an IAS with it, while still being good due to being a cancellable shadowstep. --Kalas Silvern 08:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- HA spikes with a/d. Sees some GvG use as well. Lord of all tyria 10:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I know energy regen doesn't matter when you spike. I'm mostly talking about secondary assassins, who don't get that Crit. energy. I'm just saying, if a secondary assassin wishes to shadow step and return, they ought to be using up their elite slot for it, not getting mobility for just the cost of two would-be filler skills. This skill actually is quite balanced, when used by Assassins, but when used with superpowered non-Assassin elites that are usually offset by being adjacent or touch range, it can be a bit too powerful, in my opinion.
- (Also, I'm sorry again for being ignorant, but how is enchantment removal not a counter to Aura of Displacement? Whenever I play with AoD, I usually get destroyed by enchantment removal, if they are quick enough to use it. Is there some way to prevent the enchantment removal that I don't know about?) --Kite 20:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
- First off, the power of AoD comes from invincibility. You can spike all you want, and you'll be invincible. It also is a killer in any form of split. Sure, it may not be as powerful on the stand or in RA, but it still is powerful. Also, shadowwalk requires two skills to be useful. It kills your IAS, it kills defensive stances, it kills enchants. These factors make it balanced. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said, this isn't an issue about whether it's balanced for assassins or not, nor is this a discussion about Aura of Displacement. Shadow Walk is balanced for assassins. It is not balanced for Shockwave Eles, Dervishes with Wounding Strike, or any variety of super-powerful non-assassin elite skills which are kept in check mostly by their short range. With my suggestion, I tried to keep the skill still usable for both Assassins and non-Assassins; apparently, that failed, but what is better? Less disable time? I was thinking 3...-3...-4 or 2...-2...-3 would be better, if the negatives were zeros instead. --Kite 20:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to nerf this for non sins ( I don't see why, wounding is broken, shockwave is a stupid gimmick) you could add some sort of shadow arts requirement, or just add a disables all spells for 4 seconds clause. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I haven't really seen Shadow Walk used much in the current meta, so I guess this is a bit of a moot point now; no real reason to change it while it's unused. In fact, I see no A/X or X/A in the meta at all, except the Rt/A and the occasional W/A with Disrupting Dagger(I don't get that, why not just use Shock? The extra range?).--Kite 03:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- Because bad people can't play shock. Seriously though, DDagger is better when the enemy has a cripshot or something snaring. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- The use of DDagger comes from the inability to shock through Aura of Stability, which is why its seen more use in HA then in GvG. It started as a replacement for Shock when Shadow Stepping was Vogue. Now that SS isn't used as much, DDagger isn't either, although it still sees use. --Angelic Loki 09:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you want this to be unusable for non-sins, req 4 crit strikes, easy fix. They can still invest in shadow arts as another class if you make it a low req skill- it'd have to be 8 or more, and that hurts sins badly too. --Kalas Silvern 00:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
- Still don't see why this is so overpowered. Ok it is a shadow step without a cast and without aftercast, but it is balanced because of the disadvantages. Granted, the main reason I used it is because it doesn't have an aftercast (shovespike). But apart from the aftercast, is there any reason to use this over something like death's charge? Changing this skill to have some disabling longer than 3/4s will completely kill this skill. In fact I think that adding any disabling time will kill this skill as adrenaline can not be used. IF this skill has to be nerfed (and I don't see why) - change it so that it needs a small investment in some attribute, like giving it 50% failure with deadly arts 4 or lower. Or perhaps make it recharge all skills in the next few seconds recharge longer (like each skill has to recharge X seconds or Y% longer). Shai Meliamne 08:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I see your point. I suppose the reason to use this would be for the return shadowstep, but that doesn't seem all that overpowered in most cases. Really, this is only overpowered if used in conjunction with close-range superpowered elite skills, but that's an issue with all shadowsteps, not just this one. I realized that eventually; about the same time I realized that skill balance suggestions are a lost cause. =/ --Kite 04:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm tired of saying this over and over again: NO SHADOWSTEPS HAVE AFTERCASTS. -- NUKLEAR IIV 08:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yep to no aftercast. No to overpowered with "super powered" melee elites. This shadowstep a) prevents IAS. do you realize how huge that is? It adds at least 2-3 seconds to a spike, which in turn gives the monk PLENTY of time to heal. b) prevents enchants- all sin self heals (Not Sadist's Signet) are enchants. They're best forms of regaining health are enchants. c)Prevents IRS- no faster movement for you! And let's not forget- this isn't a hex, and it isn't an enchant- it doesn't prime combos. I actually like this best because it isn't going to be vital for the combo- due to that, you can feel free to use it and still be able to attack when needed, instead of needing your shadowstep to hex them/ench you. --Kalas Silvern 03:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
- I never said anything about melee range, just close range. I don't care any more, though, GW is dead to me now. TF2 is better balanced, is more exciting, and is(oddly enough), more RPG-ish than GW is. --Kite 18:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yep to no aftercast. No to overpowered with "super powered" melee elites. This shadowstep a) prevents IAS. do you realize how huge that is? It adds at least 2-3 seconds to a spike, which in turn gives the monk PLENTY of time to heal. b) prevents enchants- all sin self heals (Not Sadist's Signet) are enchants. They're best forms of regaining health are enchants. c)Prevents IRS- no faster movement for you! And let's not forget- this isn't a hex, and it isn't an enchant- it doesn't prime combos. I actually like this best because it isn't going to be vital for the combo- due to that, you can feel free to use it and still be able to attack when needed, instead of needing your shadowstep to hex them/ench you. --Kalas Silvern 03:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm tired of saying this over and over again: NO SHADOWSTEPS HAVE AFTERCASTS. -- NUKLEAR
- Yeah, I see your point. I suppose the reason to use this would be for the return shadowstep, but that doesn't seem all that overpowered in most cases. Really, this is only overpowered if used in conjunction with close-range superpowered elite skills, but that's an issue with all shadowsteps, not just this one. I realized that eventually; about the same time I realized that skill balance suggestions are a lost cause. =/ --Kite 04:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
- Still don't see why this is so overpowered. Ok it is a shadow step without a cast and without aftercast, but it is balanced because of the disadvantages. Granted, the main reason I used it is because it doesn't have an aftercast (shovespike). But apart from the aftercast, is there any reason to use this over something like death's charge? Changing this skill to have some disabling longer than 3/4s will completely kill this skill. In fact I think that adding any disabling time will kill this skill as adrenaline can not be used. IF this skill has to be nerfed (and I don't see why) - change it so that it needs a small investment in some attribute, like giving it 50% failure with deadly arts 4 or lower. Or perhaps make it recharge all skills in the next few seconds recharge longer (like each skill has to recharge X seconds or Y% longer). Shai Meliamne 08:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you want this to be unusable for non-sins, req 4 crit strikes, easy fix. They can still invest in shadow arts as another class if you make it a low req skill- it'd have to be 8 or more, and that hurts sins badly too. --Kalas Silvern 00:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
- Because bad people can't play shock. Seriously though, DDagger is better when the enemy has a cripshot or something snaring. -- NUKLEAR
- Well, I haven't really seen Shadow Walk used much in the current meta, so I guess this is a bit of a moot point now; no real reason to change it while it's unused. In fact, I see no A/X or X/A in the meta at all, except the Rt/A and the occasional W/A with Disrupting Dagger(I don't get that, why not just use Shock? The extra range?).--Kite 03:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to nerf this for non sins ( I don't see why, wounding is broken, shockwave is a stupid gimmick) you could add some sort of shadow arts requirement, or just add a disables all spells for 4 seconds clause. -- NUKLEAR
- Like I said, this isn't an issue about whether it's balanced for assassins or not, nor is this a discussion about Aura of Displacement. Shadow Walk is balanced for assassins. It is not balanced for Shockwave Eles, Dervishes with Wounding Strike, or any variety of super-powerful non-assassin elite skills which are kept in check mostly by their short range. With my suggestion, I tried to keep the skill still usable for both Assassins and non-Assassins; apparently, that failed, but what is better? Less disable time? I was thinking 3...-3...-4 or 2...-2...-3 would be better, if the negatives were zeros instead. --Kite 20:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
- First off, the power of AoD comes from invincibility. You can spike all you want, and you'll be invincible. It also is a killer in any form of split. Sure, it may not be as powerful on the stand or in RA, but it still is powerful. Also, shadowwalk requires two skills to be useful. It kills your IAS, it kills defensive stances, it kills enchants. These factors make it balanced. -- NUKLEAR
Of all the...
Of all the suggestions that had to be implemented, it had to be the one that ruined the skill. Figures. I realize I'm way behind posting this, forgot about these pages >_> --Kalas Silvern 01:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
- This needs to be archived. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I had hoped for a 0-second recharge with higher (8+) Shadow Arts, to put a real attribute requirement on the skill. This may be almost identical to what I had asked for, but the subtle difference totally misses the point of the suggested update. =/ Still, I can't help but feel a bit guilty for this skill's downfall, since it was my idea which was twisted into this. -_-; --Kite 00:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
