ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Ritualist/Rejuvenation

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Epinephrine's Discussion

Party heals need to be figured out, and this is certainly the weakest of them. Looking at the party heal options they vary in energy per health and health per second, and they should probably fit a pattern of sorts. As it is, Rejuvenation has among the lowest efficiencies in terms of healing per energy (at 37.4-49 for 12-16 Restoration, with 11 Spawning Power), and the lowest healing per second (struggling at 16 Restoration with 11 Spawning Power to hit 1.8 health per second per party member). The table assumes 8 players are affected, though this obviously varies depending on the spell; with Heal Party or LoD it's more likely, but the smaller range on the spirits and paragon skills makes it less likely that all 8 will be affected. Likewise, the table assumes that the spirits last their full duration (somewhat unlikely in the rather extreme case of Recuperation, which has to last over 40 seconds), and that the chants are actually triggered.
Note: Assuming 8 party members are affected.

Skill Cast time Cost Recharge Healing per target per casting (@12) Healing per target per casting (@16) Healing per target per second (@12) Healing per target per second (@16) Total healing per energy (@12) Total healing per energy (@16) Energy cost per second
Divine Healing Divine Healing / Heaven's Delight Heaven's Delight 1 5 15 51 60 3.1875 3.75 81.6 96 0.3125
Heal Party Heal Party 1 15 2 66 75 22 25 35.2 40 5
Light of Deliverance Light of Deliverance 1 5 10 57 70 5.1818 6.3636 91.2 112 0.4545
Life Life 3 10 20 120 140 5.2174 6.0870 96 112 0.4348
Protective Was Kaolai Protective Was Kaolai 1 10 15 70 85 4.375 5.3125 56 68 0.625
Recuperation Recuperation 3 25 45 234 282 4.875 5.875 74.88 90.24 0.5208
Rejuvenation Rejuvenation 3 10 30 46.75 61.25 1.4167 1.8561 37.4 49 0.3030
"Never Surrender!" "Never Surrender!" 0 5 (0 with Leadership @ 10) 20 120 150 6 7.5 192 (infinite) 240 (infinite) 0.25 (0)
Ballad of Restoration Ballad of Restoration 1 10 (5 with Leadership @ 10) 20 63 75 3 3.5714 50.4 (100.8) 60 (120) 0.4762 (0.2381)
Song of Restoration Song of Restoration 1 10 (5 with Leadership @ 10) 20 97 110 4.6190 5.2381 77.6 (155.2) 88 (176) 0.4762 (0.2381)
Mystic Healing Mystic Healing 1 5 2 53 69 17.66 23 63.6 (assuming an average of 6 enchants) 82.8 (assuming an average of 6 enchants) 1.66

As one can see from the table, the spells/spirits vary considerably. I suspect several need adjusting, including Light of Deliverance (as it is an elite). Rejuvenation places very low on efficiency (even with the 11 in Spawning Power) in the same ballpark as Heal Party, but there are three very large differences between the two:

  • Heal Party casts faster (harder to interrupt)
  • Heal Party can crank out more health per second than any other skill when needed
  • Rejuvenation is imobile and can be targeted, and the healing prevented simply by hitting the spirit.

Given these differences, I don't feel that Rejuvenation should be so far below on both efficiency and healing per second; typically the healing per second rates are in the 4-6 health per second rates when maxed, with a slightly lower rate for Divine Healing and Ballad of Restoration (both of which have great efficiency), and pretty high rates on both efficiency and Heal per second for the other spirits (but they are vulnerable to being targeted, and rely on being up for their whole durations). I think that the rate of healing could be increased into the 4-6 health per second range and the efficiency into the 60-80 range without a problem; this can be done by halving the health cost to the spirit (which would double the amount of health it produces over time) and decreasing the recharge to 20 seconds; these changes would put it at 4-5.2 health per second, and 73-96 health per energy efficiency, approaching that of the Life and Recuperation Spirits. --Epinephrine 15:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Song of Restoration should be there as well? -- Hong 15:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't as certain about the paragon skills that require triggers (using skills, getting hit), but I can add them. The costs get tricky to calculate, though I suppose I can do what I did for Rejuvenation and assign a reasonably high value to the primary attribute (around 10). As you can see the healing per energy for Song becomes undefined, since you can end up paying nothing for the heal. --Epinephrine 15:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This skill is fine. You cannot compare it with SoR because it is not an elite skill. The healing mechanic is also different. Rejuvenation will not heal allies that is at full health. Therefore it keeps everyone at full health without ever overhealing. Lightblade 20:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not comparing it to SoR, I included that on the table since someone asked. My comparison was with the other spirits and skills like Heal Party. I agree that the mechanic is different, but it's still easily the lowest in healing per second, and among the lowest in efficiency.--Epinephrine 21:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm amazed you didn't run into at least one repeating decimal there. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 22:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that I've actually read the discussion, I agree with you, this is underpowered, but not by looking at the numbers (which I personally am mostly ignoring, except as interesting pieces of information, because they assume ideal conditions). Keeping the spirit alive long enough to do its job, and keeping everyone within its range, is nearly impossible in the chaos of combat. Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight are meta now because, well, it's one pop and you're done. This requires babysitting. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png 22:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Put an extra column reading "Energy cost per second" and your argument goes in the hole. Rejuvenation is a spirit. It's not a spell that you use once and forget about. If you're a half decent player, you know that there are many rit skills that can heal spirits (or give them health regen). Use it with Signet of Spirits and see how much you like it. Yes, most of the rit skills I'm talking about suck, but they exist. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 03:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added the column, but I don't see the point of it, the healing per second columns provide short-term healing rate information and the healing per energy columns provide efficienty information. -- Gordon Ecker 04:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The point Lightblade made about overhealing is interesting, and does affect the healing per person and healing per second, so it might not need as much tweaking as I originally suggest. I'll test some more. Of course, since the mechanism is quite different, it's efficiency actually goes up as party size drops, while other skills do the reverse - a point worth making as well, lest it unbalance 4 v 4 battles. Still, despite all that, I suspect there is room to imporve it. --Epinephrine 05:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Signet of Spirits is generally inferior to Offering of Spirit and Offering of Blood, Signet of Creation adds 60~360 healing at 16 Restoration Magic and 12 Spawning Power depending on how long the spirit lasts. As for Spirit Boon Strike, it's more efficient to boost Rejuvenation's healing by dumping more points into Spawning Power unless you already have high Spawning Power and low Channeling Magic, in which case Spirit Boon Strike is a waste of energy. -- Gordon Ecker 05:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

This skill is not good because of the casting time, range, recharge and health loss. This skill is easy to interrupt when you are trying to summon and easy to destroy once it is up. --Shadetz X 08:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this will not heal players who have full health, and will not lose life from missing those heals, so its healing is always equal to the amount of health it has (unless you heal it later or it is destroyed before it suicides) ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the few spirits that is NOT easy to destroy. Any spirit that's over level 10 have significantly less chance in receiving a critical hit from weapon. This spirit is Lv15. It is very durable. Lightblade 08:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The best other skill to compare this to is divine healing. Rejuvenation has twice the cost and twice the recharge, BUT it is a spirit with all kinds of positive synergies to other skills. You have to stay in range, but there is no overhealing. So far I'd rate the two skills about equal, but now comes the big hammer: 3 second casting time renders this instantly useless compared to 1 second. --Xeeron 14:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This is just capless health regen. I've actually run rejuv in 4v4 and it works well. Never tried it in an 8v8 situation. ~Shard (talk / Nerf List) 11:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I've updated the values for Song of Restoration in the table. -- Gordon Ecker 02:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I've never used this skill honestly due to the energy cost. When I do however, its because I've a filler spirit slot open, and unless a spirit is very OP, or I have a skill meant for killing spirits, I wont bother. The thing I like about this skill is that instead of one large hit of life like life provides, this healing occurs over time, so its less likely you will run into overhealing, like mentioned. Rejuvination is obviously meant to buff that particular spirit when under spawning power, but I agree that rejuv is a little under powered compared to Life (and even recup) since most of the times, N/Rt's are the main users of Resto skills (with the exception of GvG runners). --Angelic Loki 03:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the table again. -- Gordon Ecker 00:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And again to account for the May 1st rollback. -- Gordon Ecker 06:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)