Feedback talk:User/Koda Kumi/Obliterate heroes

Oh, I can smell the flames coming already :P please place them beneath this line Koda Kumi talk 10:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I think its too late for this type of change Talamare 10:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

No Funking way.. not now, not ever. Yet another retarded idea from this user. Anon-e-mouse 10:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!--MushaTalk 03:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)!

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Maybe remove them from HM only. --Boro 08:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a plan. And slap the 3 people who posted above you because they cannot follow simple instructions :P Koda Kumi talk 09:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Your instructions were to place flames beneath the line, Mine wasnt a flame -Talamare- feedback 10:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

erm only way this would work is if anet added a global mission search so it could reach the spread out community --Aura 11:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not like this idea at all. I HATE playing with people, so H/Hing everything is the only way I play the game. I enjoy the game and, as such, do not think they should do any drastic changes to it. If you wanted to suggest this for Guild Wars 2, go for it, but know that there are a lot of people like myself whom enjoy playing alone, and, therefore, require heroes and henchmen. If anything, I wish they'd remove the henchmen and allow us to have more heroes. (I made this suggestion for Guild Wars 2 several days ago.) FloppyJoe 01:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL why do you want to force people to play with bad players the other day me and one of the other people i normally play with saw someone else in town wanting to do the same thing we were doing so we dropped one of are heroes and let them join shortly after seeing there defy pain bar we kicked them because we knew that 1 they were tarabad and 2 that the hero would do a better job.- Zesbeer 01:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The hero would indeed to a better job. That is about my point :P Also, I am not going to play GW2 so I will not make any suggestions for it. Koda Kumi talk 22:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't understand your point at all. What would be the point of removing the heroes? PvP is competition, so it needs some fairness. But, PvE is not a competition, so it does not have to be fair in your eyes. What other people do in PvE shouldn't really effect you, unless you are worried about them destroying the in-game economy or something. I don't get it. FloppyJoe 02:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Making 'Hard Mode' hard. Koda Kumi talk 12:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) So, don't use heroes, don't use consumables, don't grind, don't worry about titles, etc. Why force this on everyone else? -- FreedomBound 12:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

You can't turn back the clock and just say "none of this ever happened". You say this would make people team up again? No, all it would do is make them stop playing. The game can be as challenging as you wish it to be. As has been pointed out by others above, if you don't wish to play with heroes, don't, if you don't wish to play with consumables, don't. It's as simple as that. Removing these choices for everyone is only going ruin many people's enjoyment, for little to no benefit. -- Wyn talk 12:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

@Freedom bound - that's terrible logic, and it's been debunked a hundred times. "If you don't like it, don't do it" doesn't cut it in real life nor in multiplayer games. There are a hundred reasons why your logic is terrible, but to avoid WoTing, just think of the economy. If you don't shadow form but the other guy does, who wins? Here's a hint - not you.

@Wyn, the same basic flaws riddle your post. It is a multi-player competitive RPG, but what's the point of even trying to compete if the people who ride the short bus can just hit the "I win" button and get everything you can, as quickly as you can, with no effort spent tweaking builds or learning how to play? Giving players invincibility (either literally, a la shadow form, or just really close, like consumables and a full hero team including MM with, as this poster mentioned, a field full of cannon fodder) is bad. In other games, it's called a Cheat Code. Take starcraft for example. Single player, the game is great. If a particular mission gets too hard, you can enter a cheat code and win, and even though you weren't good enough to pass, it doesn't matter because your victory doesn't affect anyone else. As soon as you start playing Starcraft online, guess what? Can you still enter cheat codes to reveal the entire map? Can you still give yourself 500 minerals at will? Can you still be invincible? No, because that totally defeats the entire fucking point of playing online.

"Don't use it if you don't like it" is a stupid mindset and limited in its implications. The game wasn't designed for brain dead idiots to be able to beat it. If you sucked, you got to play with greens for the rest of your life. If you were good (or ebayed, as some players do), you got the golds. That's how it worked in PvP, too. You were bad, you got beaten, you didn't get to press the "i-win" button to get a cape trim. You either learned how to play or you kept losing. Removing incentive to learn to play keeps terrible players terrible and normalizes once-epic weapon or armor skins, and keeping literal invincibility destroys what's left of this game's shitty economy. Quite frankly, Guild Wars PvE is a joke and has been since release. You do it once and... that's it. There's honestly no incentive for doing it over, because the story is boring, the gameplay is mind numbingly easy, and the AI never changes.

How about we apply your "don't do it if you don't like it" logic back at you? If you like rolling your face across the keyboard and winning, you can stick to normal mode. Don't try hard mode, and if you do, don't complain when it kicks your ass because you're terrible at the game. Don't ask for crutches or rely on them. Don't try to make hard mode easy, just avoid it entirely. Now do you see where your logic falls through?

PvE should be hard again. At the very least, all of these things mentioned should be removed from Hard Mode - consumables, PvE skills, and honestly, heroes. If you want to beat the game, go ahead and take all your broken shit through normal mode. I don't care. As soon as you can do something labeled "hard mode" while being mostly afk, the game is broken, and no amount of terrible logic can deny or debunk that. Good try, though, you would have had me there if I couldn't think. -Auron 13:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh I did end up WoTing. Oops. -Auron 13:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Where's the intersection between heroes, farming, and the economy? Farming's pretty much a solo endeavor, outside of some hero-based builds for certain areas or missions that would probably do as well or better with a player at the helm (i.e. they have to be micromanaged anyway). -- FreedomBound 17:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

It's competitive in PvP, well, heroes are being removed from PvP. In PvE, you are competing against the computer and yourself. You talk about the economy, well, in a 4+ yr old game I don't really expect there to be much of an economy, there are just too many instances of everything that ever had any imagined value because of their rarity. People who play PvE, play it to enjoy it, and if they don't enjoy it, they shouldn't play it. If they don't want to use the crutches, they shouldn't, but at this point, saying that taking them away is going to make people change the way they play and go back to playing in PUG's is just ridiculously naive. They will just stop playing altogether, if they are forced to play with "bad" players in pugs. It won't revitalize play, it won't bring people back to activity for guild/alliance groups. It also won't make the economy any better. If I didn't enjoy Guild Wars any longer I wouldn't still be playing it, I don't use consumables other than dp removers which have been available in the game since the first wintersday. I will admit I enjoy my heroes. They allow me to play in pretty much any area of the game I like by myself if I choose to, and after the number of hours I have played, I do choose to rather than playing with others most of the time. I see it as a choice. I don't think ArenaNet would be doing the game or the players who still play it any favors by removing those choices at this point. As for my logic failing, no, I don't really see it. -- Wyn talk 17:42, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I do see it as circular logic. If people cannot beat Hard Mode without heroes, consumables, and PvE skills, they should not be doing HM at all. My suggestions are about HM being a place where good players gather and terrible players stay away from. Forcing people to use their brains instead of relying on broken shit. It was what GW was all about in the first place: your succes was based on your own skill instead of your gear or skilltree. A concept that has not been done before. Of course, there were some flaws with it, but if Anet would fix the flaws and went on with their initial plan, GW would be a lot more enjoyable.

Instead, they introduced more and more ways to give the players an advantage over enemies. Professions that used to be in a more or less support role were given the tools for either absurd damage, absurd shutdown, or absurd invulnerability. You can call that fun, I call NF the most boring campaign to date. It has no replay value or challenge whatsoever, every mission is just about using broken hero builds and equally broken PvE skills to kill everything as fast as possible.

I am tired of seeing PI, ebon sins and broken hero builds in every party to make PvE a joke. Like Auron said, whatever you do in NM, I do not care a rat's arse. But HM should be that. Hard. It is not called joke mode. People should get punished for bad tactics, enemies should use better moves and not get distracted by a wall of spirits, proph-factions monster builds should be updated to counter the more recent profesions.... by the way, I cannot find Jette's FoW page anymore, where is it? Koda Kumi talk 18:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

@Auron - The story is boring? I enjoy the fact that it has a great story. I have played through each campaign many times with many different characters. I still enjoy it and many others do too. Do you remember when all that was out was Prophecies? Remember sitting in town, having to find pugs and then they all would wipe during the mission and you'd have to start over? Maybe you don't, but I do. I do not like having to start over and over again on a mission that takes a long time to complete just because people are idiots. The only people that would want heroes gone from PvE are those that have guildmates that know what they are doing. Even if my guild was active, it'd still be very hard to find someone in it that would want to go through the story with me (they all would just want to do FoW, UW, farm, PvP, or something else boring to me). The story is what pulled me to Guild Wars (that and the no subscription fee). If you want to play harder stuff with people, go find an MMO that doesn't have heroes, rather than try to change the way this game is. Go get WoW and play some 25-man heroic raids or something. FloppyJoe 02:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I stopped taking you seriously when you made the connection between WoW and difficulty. The point is that I am not trying to change this game but trying to go back to how this game used to be. The point is that there is no reason to have a 'Hard Mode' and not making it hard at all. At least WoW's heroics require you to do some preparations for them (read: 2 weeks of grinding) Koda Kumi talk 15:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

A buddy of mine plays WoW and his guild does 25-man heroic raids three times a week. They have Ventrilo and have to coordinate very well on those raids. I'd say they were pretty hard, since they spend hours/days/weeks of wiping to finally beat the raids. Watching them attempt the 25-man heroic Mimiron battle was pretty crazy. Anyway, some of the Hard Mode stuff can be challenging, unless you are a perma-sin or something. If you want it to be a challenge, don't use consumables and make your own builds. I find it funny that you mention, Shadow Form, Pain Inverter, and Essence of Celerity, as reasons to get rid of heroes. I really doubt a hero could be a Perma-sin, since the timing would be too tough for a hero. Pain Inverter is a skill heroes can not have, and Essence of Celerity is a consumable. None of these things should have anything to do with heroes. I don't really understand the comparison you make for Livia being an aimbot, but that's the first thing mentioned about a hero. As I mentioned before, bringing the game "back to how this game used to be" would suck, because then I'd have to play with people. Ugh. FloppyJoe 17:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

You like abusing overpowered shit, I do not. End. Koda Kumi talk 15:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

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"Why would you have sex with people who can leave, overaggro, bring terrible skills, or pay no attention, when you can use your hand to just do all the combat for you?" ChibiCD 00:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

<<"Why would you have sex with people who can.... overaggro....>>

o.O Koda Kumi talk 15:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, these changes would cripple PvE into more of a standard MMO, where you have to rely on people that "leave, overaggro, bring terrible skills and don't listen". Is it really better to bring misery to all players in order to preserve some fake honor? The current system allows for players of all skill levels to be successful in the game. I do not want to sit around for an hour waiting for humans to do a difficult mission just to have someone quit. I think you are alone on this one, OP. Xiaquin 18:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

If Auron and I are the only ones who appriciate challenge in a game on this wiki, I wonder if we should bother posting anything again, considering we are not representing anyone Koda Kumi 18:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

im sorry but there are ways that anet can make things changing and not remove heroes from the game. which is a horabad idea. like everyone has already said who wants to play with pugs who are not umx don't know how to equip the right armor and just dont know how to play i mean there are people who think that the starter bars for heroes are there for a reason and don't change them. there are people who don't use elites. and this argument about if you don't use the "overpowered stuff then your at a disadvantage" im sorry but that's just not true. also if you want to remove heroes then you need to bring ursan back because the class discrimination will be way more epicly apparent then it is now. i remember pre heroes and how you would have to either bring a monk or a war to have a chance of getting into a party, and news flash the other professions are a lot of fun to play.- Zesbeer 20:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I never stated I am at a disadvantage because I do not use overpowered shit. Just pissed off when I accomplish something with skill (you know, it's called Hard Mode, like in "challenge") and some random newbie does the same thing with some discord hero party and steamrolls through it while playing Pokemon in another window. Koda Kumi 20:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, I remembered that 139 others share my views. I guess this wiki has some brave people after all! :P Koda Kumi 20:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

thats a request to balance pve not to remove heroes. there's a big difference.- Zesbeer 23:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Judging by the other article you linked to, Koda, the root of your problem seems to be consumable items, not heroes. Considering that these allow for speed runs, such as UWSC, that don't involve heroes, your suggestion doesn't resolve your complaint. I think there is a reasonable argument against consets making PvE too easy, but not heroes. Xiaquin 22:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I have made suggestions to nuke consumables, pve skills, and heroes. They are all preventing this game from being as enjoyable as it was 3-4 years back. All of them make PvE so easy there is really no point to play with others anymore (which is what an MMO should be about in the first place). Koda Kumi 18:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

That means your next step is to make a suggestion about shadow form -Talamare- feedback 19:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Except, like, that has been suggested 12 times already (yea, I counted them. 12 SF suggestions, ah ah ah! :P) Koda Kumi 16:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

If you remove all of the above, yes that would bring us back to 2006, which I remember playing very well. Most of the time, I played with henchmen, because I didn't want to wait for humans. When I log into a game, I want to play right away. Sure, it made the game harder, but PUGs were as clumsy then as they are now, it's hit or miss. Nothing has changed. I know what you miss and that's the fun of a full 8 human party, no robots and no godlike builds. Those days are over. PvE skills didn't kill them, heroes didn't kill them, and consumables didn't kill them; players did. Lazy players that want the fastest, easiest time getting rich and powerful did this. PvE skills help enhance builds. Consumables help a weak party, for a price. Heroes are useful on-demand help when humans are unavailable. All of these have good intentions, but blame the players that exploit all of that for personal gain. I want change too, but I don't want to purge the system. As unique of an experience as 2006 could give, it was bland. In order to expand on the environment, players needed boosts, that's all it was supposed to be. Xiaquin 18:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

<<players needed boosts>>

You are funny. Koda Kumi 15:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

restrictions make the game fun to play

Really. If you don't rely on your permaform character to book a run to droks for your level 3 character to get max armor, if you don't start your warrior with an eternal blade, if you don't use elite tomes to make your level 3 toon a terminator, then you can have fun. People need to realize that. --Boro 15:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why forcing people to do things or limiting their freedom will make anything fun. That is like saying slaves enjoy being slaves. Heroes and Consumables are all just another dimension that can make the game experience more fun. Forcing players to play with players that refuse to act competently just because they can't get a competent group member is uncalled for. Players who learn with heroes have nobody to blame but themselves and will learn, whereas if you have a group, people will constantly find excuses to blame other players for their downfalls. If a person wants to farm a particularly boring farm they shouldn't be forced to find a monk to farm it with them. Nobody wants to help someone farm if they don't want to farm. That is making the game boring for people. It makes certain classes of player characters required and if 20% of all players don't want to play that class they shouldnt be forced to. Consumables aren't hurting anybody either. Take that away and you will hear many many complaints trust me. Challenge is a part of the game for sure. Taking things away isn't much fun. If it happens in RL people get very angry. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]]).

That is also a problem. This game should not be about farming. It should have always have been about skill. Koda Kumi 21:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Bologna. Every MMO is about farming. If there is nothing to farm or grind for, people would stop playing after a few months, just like any other game collects dust after you beat it a couple times. Let's take a racing game as an example. What you are saying is that driving assists, which make it much easier to race, should be removed, and everyone should play with simulation settings. My point is that skill level is relative. These buffs, if you will, exist, we are stuck with them and there's no going back. Frankly, I'm far less frustrated than I was 4 years ago because of these options. And that's what they are, options. I resent those that abuse them, for sure, but I play my own way and it's worked for me. Xiaquin 18:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I am more frustrated with the game than 4 years ago, so we will never agree. Have a good day. Koda Kumi 16:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr

People will not magically go back to PUGs after this, the playerbase is too dumb and small for that. I wouldn't mind seeing Heroes removed though, botting is obviously retarded. :P Dark Morphon 09:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)