Feedback talk:User/M3G/Shadow Form

It is a strange idea, but can other party members cast spells on you?--Ciotto 16:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Good question! What kind of spell do you think about ? M3G 18:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this would solve any problems. You may be fixing a farming or tanking problem but in the process create a bigger one. If the sin is undetectable then they will be able to run people anywhere in the game without fail. Certian dungeons would be completely trashed by the idea of an undetectable character. Just a thought. User:Yamahasynth 3 September 2009 (CST)

I agree with this comment and feel I should point out a few other problems with this plan... Most Mob's AI for skill Activation relies on them being Hostile towards something. IE: Many mobs won't even activate their own Survival powers if they have nothing to aggro against. Furthermore, there are still a lot of powers that DO get through ShadowForm as it is and will eventually kill the Assn if he's not running his own Regen or healing powers while SF'ing. Most of these are Touch skills or PbAoE/Aura damage skills activated by the Mobs, but some of them might also be damage reflection powers like DeadlyRiposte & Retribution. Giving an Assn complete avoidance of all Aggro may actually be a HUGE BUFF to this skill if it allowed them to kill anything they wanted to without ever aggroing it. IE: The skills labeled as "related" are not actually related at all b/c they actually require the User to lay perfectly still and not take any actions. This proposed change, while seemingly very clever, would reward the user for taking very aggressive actions against Mobs that may not know enough to protect themselves from even the simplest of attacks. ...In Theory, this change might even allow Assns to solo Mallyx at which point they'd be able to farm Armbraces instead of just Ectos --ilr 22:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The only flaw I can see is with a team of 8 assassins. It would have to be limited to one 'shadow', similar to the summoning mechanics already in play. Alternatively whatever the assassin is attacking could attack back but dealing 50% less damage since you're just a shadow so to speak. Racthoh 22:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The "stop existing" thing is what Shadow Form should have been in the first place. I think it would be broken if it still allowed you to do damage, but if you just kind of...stopped existing for half a minute to run through a mob or to explore or whatever, that would be cool. ~Shard 02:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

That's right the 33% less damage isn't enough. So to make this idea viable SF should end if the Sin moves or deals damage.M3G 06:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I reworked the skill a little--M3G 07:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It's wonderfully useless. --Gah_ 13:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Just keep the "if you do damage" part of the clause. Otherwise it resembles something like this or this. --Gah_ 13:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Gross, instead of dying and getting rezed later, you just hide there and do nothing. Maybe good for runs where mobs have huge patrols but not useful at all in general PVE. Waste of an elite slot IMHO.Rypofalem 18:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I see no meaning in rendering the skill completely useless. MithTalk 19:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This would make a pretty cool PvE skill. Being able to hide when you aggro a patrol or something. As far as an elite on your skill bar goes though it's not worth it. Not being able to attack makes you useless. If you allow the player to move then dungeons would become easier as one SF sin is only needed to run through the levels where there is no boss key. It could also change other classes in areas. Skipping whole mobs until you get to the boss. Making the sin untargetable would be a great thing though because that would prevent many hexes from working as well as remove the sins tanking ability as well. Mob AI would also likely run away if they can't target you (like if you cast spells from the other side of a gate they run away) severely reducing it's functionality as a farmer. Shadow Form isn't supposed to be a tanking skill, it should always have been an evasion skill.122.111.4.131 07:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No, Shadow Form was meant to enter the battle, take out as many enemies as you can - if you are smart, you'll know which ones, like healers or nukers - and get the hell out of there before it ends, usually with the help f a shadow step skill. ~If you can't deal damage, you definitely can't take out the enemy healer. And thus it will become useless MithTalk 12:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• 10 1 45 Elite Enchantment Spell. Lose all enchantments, for 5...18...21 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41...50 Health. UPS! --Super Igor 09:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that assassins are not ninjas. Assassins have a wie range of skills, know how to use several different weapons, and their jobs are espionage, infiltration, assassination... Assassins are just that: dagger-wielding assassins. Don't mix them with ninjas just because one of the Assassin heads has something that looks like certain ninja headbands.MithTalk 12:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed the word "ninja" from the note, even though it was just to show the idea. Thx for the input Igor, I reworked it using another idea like yours :) M3G 13:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

And now... for the "Move undetected"... have you ever heard of Shadow Steps? Why using Shadow form and then 'move undetected', to have the form removed when you start attacking when it's way faster ans simpler to use a Shadow Step, and that won't even use the Elite slot? O_o ... MithTalk 17:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I see two main reasons:

• It may not be used to only deal damage: you can run through a mob to activate a switch, pick up key, etc...
• shadow step = limited range + instant kill if you jump into a mob in HM.

Something you are right is that it's not enough special to earn the Elite slot, though number of elites are not so special.

M3G 07:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that we should make other elites not special, but that those not special elites should be changed to make it worth the use of the elite slot. When you are supposed to skip fights in GW you are already presented with the occasion (Like when avoiding Mursaat or when running away from the Kournan or avoiding Corsair camps). Basically what you suggest is an invisibility skill, which would fit more the Mesmer. Mesmer have one less elite spell. That could be the case. MithTalk 13:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Reworeked the skill a little bit M3G 07:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I honestly like this one. It fits with the original "ninja" hype that got everyone into Assassins at release. The disable is a nice touch, so it isn't able to be maintained indefinitely, but maybe a longer disable and a shorter recharge would work better (like with the Dervish forms, so if they're interrupted you don't have to wait two minutes to use it again). Might need some work on the wording, but I think this could be very cool. (PvE only, maybe, though. I don't know how balanced this would be in PvP. Probably not very.) Only downside I can see would be killing the VSF teams, probably, but someone can feel free to point out my ignorance on that front. --70.158.147.92 20:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Thx for the feedback. I listened to your advice about the interrupt/relaod problem and made the recharge a bit faster. M3G 08:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

SF isnt the problem

But rather the lack of countering skills in elite areas (read dungeons, especially the ones that are usually rushed and Slaver's Exile, aswell as UW and FoW). Signets and monster skills go through SF, they just need to buff them up a bit. If they wished, they could even make a specific counter skills such as "Target loses shadowform." and add them to "elite areas", thus preserving the skill for "casual use" while making other tanks viable again in "elite areas". --Taki Fujiko 13:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You know a skill is bad when they need to add an exact specific counter to monsters such as "target loses shadow form" -Talamare- feedback 15:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Like this? Trample can already be problematic to Permasins, or PBAoEs, they just need to elaborate a bit on them. --Taki Fujiko 23:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)