Feedback talk:User/Raine Valen/Skill suggestions/Ranger/Wilderness Survival

Burning Arrow

I'm going to drop the damage by a lot and make it focus more on burning. I'm also moving it to this attribute. Sound good? — Raine Valen 0:24, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking AoE burn and damage, spammable. Like, consider Poison Arrow's relationship to Apply Poison. Then consider a skill with that same relationship to Ignite Arrows. — Raine Valen 1:40, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

... Don't mess with my BA :( --Jaigoda 01:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Marksmanship will continue to have strong damage options (have you seen it?); BA just won't be one of them. — Raine Valen 1:48, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Um, what damage options? Burning Arrow is the only real damage option for a bow that doesn't sacrifice the normal ranger bar. Cripshot is utility, Prep Shot is energy management, Punishing is an interupt, Mel's Shot is bar compression, and Barrage sucks in PvP. Rangers run utility, but BA is the only option rangers have to actually provide some spike assist without gimping theselves by trying to be a turret. --Jaigoda 03:02, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Feedback talk:User/Raine Valen/Skill suggestions/Ranger/Marksmanship.

Rangers have like 3 dedicated spike assist skills. Couple with Sloth Hunter's for great justice.

Prepared Shot will be a fourth. Mel's Shot will stop doing damage, largely. Punishing just rapes faces. Cripshot will be cripshot. Barrage is like Incendiary but better.

Rangers won't have pressure-through-damage skills like current-iteration BA, though; this is intentional. Condipressure, yes. Disruptive pressure, yes. Spike damage, yes. Big pressure domages? Not so much. — Raine Valen 3:59, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Barrage would be rediculously broken. Put on an IAS and Choking Gas and you're AoE rupting EVERYTHING that doesn't have .25sec activation time, and even those you'd have a ~50% chance of interupting. Hunter's Shot is practically Mel Shot but on a 7sec recharge. Needling would be the same way, though single target and wouldn't require Choking Gas.

I'm just wondering, why are you trying to rework so much of Rangers when they're easily one of the most balanced professions in the game? I mean, I'm all for tweaking, but this would basically be an complete overhaul. --Jaigoda 18:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd appreciate if you moved that comment to respective sections on the marksmanship talk page.

That being said, because rangers don't need to explode faces on top of interrupting everything and degening teams to death. At range. If it were just two of the three, maybe. But all three is kind of excessive, and, since warriors, eles, and paragons will have damage covered, I thought I'd largely axe it from the ranger quarter. — Raine Valen 18:43, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Sloth's no longer explodes faces. Also, rangers can only interupt key skills, due to recharge and energy constraints. And most rangers only bring poison for degen, unless they bring Poison Arrow, at which point they're sacrificing almost all direct damage for degen. Rangers are balanced because they do a lot, but only a little bit of each. The buffs you're proposing would allow rangers to literally provide constant shutdown from interupts (Needling Shot alone would be OP'd), plus be able to spread conditions far, far faster than right now and apply more than just poison. Kindle/Ignite + Barrage + IAS would be like 50+ AoE DPS, and you'd still have room for DShot, Needling, and 3 slots for more utility. That would make the old Escape Daggers look underpowered in comparison. --Jaigoda 19:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, BA will still explode faces (arguably better than before); with the att change, though, rangers carrying it should deal less damage overall.

And barrage is prolly going to need a nerf. I think normal or 1s activation (aftercast-inducing) should cover it. — Raine Valen 19:19, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

So, to address that: Needling Shot is cool if you can land it consistently, but one cancelcast smashes it • I nerfed Barrage pretty hard (halved its effectiveness for non-degen prep abuse).

As far as rspike goes: Forked Arrow no longer exists (neither will Dual Shot) • and all of their Marksmanship spike skills are slow, which makes the spikes leagues easier to catch.

The thing that does concern me, though, is a spike that uses no Marksmanship. Rangers could upwards of 200 damage a pop with BA + <fast-activating skill> + Kindle under Conflagration (BA for ~50, Kindle x2 for ~70, Conflag x8 for ~80). Nightmare Weapons would just make it insane, but I plan to change Nightmare so that it doesn't work so well with ranged attackers. Still, though, Brutals would still work (though I'm considering changing the conditional to "physical damage" or something so that it won't trigger Conflag or stack with Conjure), and OoV could be substituted in for Conflag. Long story short, it could get ugly.

On the bright side, a conflag spike would be hurt pretty badly by armor bonuses (fire shields would knock off ~27% of the damage alone, Disciple's insig would make the spike pretty much autofail on monks, etc), most of the damage could be mitigated by killing or interrupting Conflagration and shutting down copies of Kindle (since, unlike traditional rspike, a huge percentage of the damage is from the preparation). It would be a much more fragile spike, I think.

Anyway.

Overall: Rangers will have the capacity to be tremendously strong, but all of their strongest skills, like Needling Shot, Disrupting Shot, and Marauder's Shot, will reward good play and punish bad play on both the rangers' and their opponents' sides. The same will be true for every profession: differences in skill level will be glaringly evident. — Raine Valen 22:01, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

I'm just wondering about something, wich elite from Wilderness Survival are you gonna place in Marksmanship to replace Burning Arrow, Melandru's Arrows or Scavanger's Focus perhaps? But you definitly can't leave Marksmanship with 1 elite less and Wilderness Survival with 1 elite more, that would throw off the balance of the elites. Damysticreaper

I can move an expertise elite into Marksmanship, if it comes to it. Really, though, I don't care which atts have the most elites, as long as they're all competitive. :) — Raine Valen 15:12, 25 Sep 2010 (UTC)

With normal skills moving is acceptable, with elite skills however you have to replace instead of move. A good example would be when anet moved Shattering assault to critical Strikes and moved Fox's Promise a Critical Strikes elite to Dagger Mastery to keep the location of the elites balanced. They could have easily left Dagger Mastery with 1 elite less and Critical Strikes with 1 more or moving a elite from a different attribute to Dagger Mastery but they did not, and for a reason. If you want your suggestion with Burning Arrow to be seriously looked at like that you have to move a Wilderness Survival Elite to Marksmanship. If not i'm afraid they will simple ignore the suggestion of Burning Arrow.Damysticreaper

"you have to replace instead of move" • "and for a reason"

Why do I have to replace instead of move? For what reason? — Raine Valen 22:48, 25 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Choking Gas

I would keep it as arrows only because i can't imagine the horror when it's combined with dagger attacks or Cyclone Axe. Even with the limited number of foes affected combining it with those will wreck havok on the backline on a rate than is very difficult to counter. And when it's combined with a scythe who hits up to 3 foes with normal attacks you can gues what the outcome will be, and it's not very pleasant. So like i said i advice it to be returned to arrows only. Damysticreaper.

It should be largely unaffordable for non-primary rangers. Warriors don't even regenerate 25 energy every 24 seconds. Assassins do, but their model (my model for them, not anet's) doesn't really work with any sort of pressure skills (this is a pressure skill) and their spike openers are intentionally limited by energy. Paragons might be able to use it, maybe? — Raine Valen 21:28, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Hmm i assume your ranger cannot use daggers or scythes anymore, like mine?

You do have taken that into your suggestion right, and a dervish will be able to use it because they can easily regenerate energy with a Attacker's Insight/Lyssa's Assault combo.

And if your ranger is still able to use other type of weapons combined with expertise what prevents them from taking scythes and daggers with them?Damysticreaper

Daggers: Assassins are a totally different profession. Even with Choking Gas, a sin would suck at constant meleeing. I already addressed this point.

Scythes: Dervish melee-support skills, like IAS and IMS, are going to rely on enchantments. In the past, a ranger could get melee support in Expertise, so it didn't matter, but that won't be the case in my model. A ranger could, theoretically, run Beast Mastery, which will continue to support melee, but then we're talking about a ridiculous attribute split. I will nerf Choking Gas slightly to emphasize this. That's why Choking Gas scales from 0 interrupts.

Axes/Hammers/Swords: Rangers won't have the skills that support melee like Warriors will (have you seen Strength? It's beastly), with the same Beast Mastery spec issue.

In any case, a ranger COULD run choking gas melee sure, but the opportunity cost is so high that it wouldn't be worth it the vast majority of the time. — Raine Valen 23:30, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Your choking Gas plus my derv = <3 203.118.170.86 22:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Dryder's Defenses

Not so sure about that, i like it's function of giving aditional defence. It's function looks nice but i don't think it will beat Natural Stride. Maybe in this case you should keep it close to it's original function instead of making it a look alike of Natural Stride. Damysticreaper

Natural Stride is a very good skill. It's hard to make something stronger than (or even competitive with) that without making it overpowered. Dryder's Defenses was in an... interesting place: it granted one advantage (block rate) that other skills better provided (due to the abnormally long recharge) and another "advantage" that was not desirable at all (rangers don't need another elemental armor bonus). So I took the opportunity to completely rework it. — Raine Valen 18:08, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

True, NS is already concidered OP by many, but what i had in mind is a stance with DD is to have it a +24 AR with 50% block (75% and it would be too much like the warrior Tactics and those in Expertise) with a playable cost recharge and drawback, keeping it close to it's original function instead of a functionality overhaul. Altough your idea to cripple attackers so escape is easier isn't all that bad either. And i don't think Anet is planning to make a stance similar in function to the already OP Natural Stride (as well as that your version has no drawback at all, even with it's short duration against only a 8 sec recharge it is quite OP if you ask me).Damysticreaper

The new version with crippled while moving should balance it better now with the duration it has.Damysticreaper

Cool. — Raine Valen 21:30, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

This'll be a good skill for / monks. Block, IMS and cripple Demonic Fahrir talk 10:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

That, it will be. — Raine Valen 21:30, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Raise recharge to 12 tbh. Although, the lack of anti kd in the ranger line might make an 8 second recharge balanced. 98.248.90.248 22:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be less annoying than Bonetti's Shield Bash, even with 8 recharge. Also, Warriors will have means to deal with it (largely via target swapping, but things like Shove are also awesome, and Wild Blow's going to stop sucking) and Assassins won't care so much. What I will do, though, is tie something to Expertise so everything doesn't carry it. — Raine Valen 22:50, 1 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Ignite Arrows

Pretty ridiculously powerful Ignite Arrows there. elix Omni 22:36, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

It's still worse than Apply for serious play. — Raine Valen 22:46, 20 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Kindle, Ignite, and Incendiary are almost identical. As far as I can tell, Kindle does exactly the same as Ignite but with more +damage and longer burning, and Incendiary only differs from Kindle by being 5 energy more and adding an extra second of burning. Not worth the elite IMO. Also, Ignite's +damage is a good deal higher than Glass Arrows. It just screams RSpike abuse. --Jaigoda 23:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Ignite Arrows and Incendiary Arrows can't miss or be blocked (and are harder to dodge) and deal damage to an area. It would be funny to see Ignite Arrows or Choking Gas with your Barrage, if not a bit scary. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 00:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Ignite Barrage or Choking Barrage would win PvE (and certain HA objectives) because mobs (and certain HA objectives) are designed badly. It would be funny to watch, but, honestly, I couldn't care less because PvE can't be good until it's largely redesigned. — Raine Valen 0:14, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Kindle's damage is single-target, but the burning is AoE. The description is ambiguous; I'll amend that. The descriptions look similar at first glance, but it does specify exactly that.

Kindle Arrows is in a worse attribute (as far as rspike goes) than Glass Arrows and does not ignore armor. It also deals a separate packet of damage (like it does currently). However, that being said, most marksmanship spike skills have been changed and most protection prayers skills have been adjusted, so rspike shouldn't be a huge issue.

I will concede that the skills are almost identical; there's really not much that I could do thematically with those skills. — Raine Valen 0:10, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Well thats nice and all explaining the power of Kindle Arrows being for single targets and dealing AoE burning but that is where the problem lies when you compare it to Ignite Arrows.

Rangers primary focus is that of a single target not multiple like the elementalist. Kindle Arrows is superior in damage generally with the exception of 2 or 3 skills because the ranger attacks one target at the time.

In it's current function Ignite Arrows is indeed good but as i see it is now too situational when you compare it to Kindle Arrows.

Also the unconditional burning they cause on every hit is a little too OP when you look at the damage burning causes. I advice it only causes burning when a bow attack skill hits now normal attacks

The original Ignite Arrows has some great synergy with Incendiary Arrows. Instead of making a non elite version of your Incendiary Arrows why don't you try to keep that synergy. As Ignite Arrows is it is inferior to Kindle Arrows for the reason i stated above in case you missed it it's because rangers focus on 1 target and not multiple with the exception of a few skills. It's too situationalDamysticreaper

There's no need to keep any synergy between Ignite and Incendiary when there's Raine's version of Barrage/Volley. Ignite Arrows is generally better than Kindle Arrows, the only thing that lets Kindle compete is the unblockable Burning and slightly higher damage. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Blinding and Blocking are very common and Ignite Arrows completely ignores them – not to mention, it's also very difficult to dodge. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 22:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The 'aside of a few skills' i meant Raine's version of Barrage and Volley as well as Forked Arrow.

But aside from that if you look at it the only issue there is is blocking, not Blind. I rarely see a ranger who does not use Mending Touch if not Antidote Signet and runes to keep themselfs clean from blind whenever they are. Why they take counter measure is because you said it yourself it's common and a predicible encounter hence it's easily to counter wich makes it no big issue.

About the blocking that would be indeed the only thing aside from only 3 attack skills that it will be useful for.

And then there is still the inferior burning duration wich in my point of view should be conditional instead of unconditional.

One last problem that comes with buffing the AoE of the ranger is that it is going to surpass the casters in terms of ranged damage if not widen the gap even further and have a larger power imbalance between professions (Altough i admit it is something i'm quite good at as well).

Well one last thing to add. I'm not saying Ignite Arrows is weak but it's overal damage regarding effects like blocking will still be inferior as blocking in PvE is nothing more than a bit bothersome as for PvP it it weaker than those seen in PvE.

And if you are gonna outweight to Pros and the Cons of the 2 skills when looking at play styles and encounters and the damage it deals over time, i see Kindle Arrows as superior because the damage buff it gives the ranger is greater than that of Ignite Arrows unsituational. Ignite Arrows is only stronger situational so in my point of view is weaker.Damysticreaper

Kindle really is superior in most cases. This is an imbalance. It is imbalanced because there's really nothing else that I can do thematically with them, so I sought to preserve the original functionality as much as possible. — Raine Valen 0:12, 2 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Sorted, I think. — Raine Valen 16:57, 2 Oct 2010 (UTC)

Poison Arrow

Alongside Melandru's Arrows, how do I make Poison Arrow sexy? — Raine Valen 0:24, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

That is really tough. Maybe some combination of unblockable/fast activation/fast flight time/AoE effect/<cool conditional effect>? –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 00:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking:

• Short disease (0...4...5 seconds) on top of the poison, unconditionally.
• Short disease if it strikes a poisoned foe.
• Fast-activating, inflicts daze (0...2...3 seconds) if target is using a spell.

Or something. I dunno. — Raine Valen 1:01, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is totally out there, but maybe a Chain Lightning-type effect instead of disease? I like the conditional disease option better out of the two, just so that you can choose if/when you want to apply it. Dazed would be weird, but it could work if it makes the skill usable. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 01:25, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

For daze, I was thinking it'd be like a fever... thing. If that makes sense.

I think that the daze makes it most useful in PvP, but the disease makes it best in PvE. I'm leaning toward the daze. — Raine Valen 1:32, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

I think I see what you're saying, like a side-effect of the poison. GW is a PvP game, so it only makes sense to balance for PvP rather than PvE. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 01:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding a short disease. Karate Jesus 02:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I really like the "conc shot: lite edition" version. Plus, it could be used to condispread like savage shot, since it'd be pew pew fast. — Raine Valen 3:20, 21 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Why not make poison arrow a AoE attack like the current incendiary arrows, should make spreading poison alot easier as well as synergise with those new preperations of yours. Damysticreaper

Barrage, Volley, and Forked Arrow already have that functionality, and don't really require a marksmanship spec (though it helps). Mel's Arrows + Volley would be better than Barbed Arrows + "Poison Arrows". — Raine Valen 15:20, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Ehh don't Barrage and Volley remove preperations? I don't see them in your suggestion either and since you are altering Incendiary Arrows, what else is their left to hit multiple targets in 1 attack skill? Dual/Tripple Shot and Forked Arrow all attack one target not multiple. Oh yea i'm not looking at the preperation Barbed Arrows but Ignite Arrows and Kindle Arrows instead. Damysticreaper

Feedback:User/Raine Valen/Skill suggestions/Ranger/Marksmanship. — Raine Valen 15:46, 22 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Ah i see you did make a suggestion about them and covered condition spreading. Well then stick to the poison/disease combo then, it would have some nice synergy with Toxicity and Fragility. Damysticreaper

Poison Arrow

That's a 1 second recharge interrupt you're suggesting there. I think it would promote brainless use. Why would you time your interrupts when you can spamspamspam it on whoever you want to shut down? With interrupts as they are now, this strategy is easily countered by casting in the aftercast delay of the interrupt, but this suggested version doesn't seem to have such a delay. It also gives far too much bar compression, effectively combining the effects of Apply, poison spread skilll of choice and, to a lesser extent, Savage. You're also suggesting buffs to some damage preparations. Since this skill doesn't take your preparation slot it's bound to get abused in spike builds. Imagine this situation: R-Spike that is capable of pressuring and shutting down Monks constantly. I think that's as bad as it can get. 83.163.190.111 21:38, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You're right; I'll update that. — Raine Valen 0:00, 28 Nov 2010 (UTC)

Poison Tip Signet

Maybe make it on next attack skill? -- Armond{{Bacon}} 04:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Dust Trap

Dust Trap has no duration on it? or am i simply missing it? --ChaosBurst 15:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

"Inflicts Blindness condition (2...5...6 seconds) every second (3 seconds)." - 3 second duration of blindness inflicting time. expires like a normal trap after 90sec. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 15:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah. Alright then i was reading it wrong. It inflicts blindness every second for 3 seconds. ChaosBurst 17:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)