Feedback talk:User/Silent In Death/Not change Shadow Form or 600/Smite

→ moved from Feedback_talk:Regina_Buenaobra#Upcoming_Skill_Update:_A_Suggestion

You will still have terra tanks, 55hp monks, 55/SS Ncros, VwK ritualists, Hunred Blades warriors, Gladiator's Defense troll farmers. You just 'won't be faster with farming than with playing together. So I think that reworking these skills will greatly help out the game. --Boro 08:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This is NOT where suggestions go. If you wish to post a suggestion for the Teams' consideration, please register an account, go to Feedback:Getting started read the rules, and instructions and go from there. Thanks! -- Wyn talk 08:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I am wondering what they are going to do about the 600/smite teams. Since the 'near-invulnerability' part of the build consists mainly of 2 skills that have become the cornerstone of protting (Spirit Bond and PS), it will be difficult to change them without immediately change the monk's role. Koda Kumi 09:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Skill balance updates are here to balance skills. Last time the majority of us checked, Shadow Form is missing a skill balance update. All I need to say. Actually, "What saddens me the most is the effort and time that will be wasted when these skills are gone. The effort I put into creating these characters, learning the runs, getting the correct equipment and skills, farming the consumables, testing, etc. will have been wasted. Sure, I can use the characters for other things but their primary purpose is gone and certainly all the time learning and perfecting is wasted now." Cry me a river, please. Nobody forced you to do any of this, oh wait ANet did because they didn't nerf the skill fast enough for you and the community to use a "proper" build. Snap. --58.7.164.215 10:38, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Many people wanting something doesn't make it good. One example: Item duping. People want stuff. EXPENSIVE stuff. And item duping creates stuff. So many people will want to try it. And many people did when it was possible. Is it good? No. Why? Answer it, and you will answer also why the speedfarming builds must be eliminated. MithTalk 13:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow. That was the most hypocritical statement ive ever seen in my life. O.O Briar 10:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing hypocritical about removing ways of getting rich faster then anet intended. Koda Kumi 22:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Because you, Koda Kumi, know how fast ANet intended us to amass wealth. I suggest you stop talking now. You already look like a bit of a fool. And just because alot of people want something nerfed means it needs to be nerfed. I cite Escape. Certainly it was a powerful elite and not to be taken lightly when 1vs1'ing against a melle charachter. But any Necro or physcial worth his salt has an anti stance in his bar. Rigor mortis or better yet defile defenses would put an escape ranger on ice in about 3 seconds flat just wanding him. And dont start putting something like rock paper scissors in my face because EVERY monk worth his salt carries guardian in his bar so rigor and defile are viable in ANY PvP situation (with the possible exception of JQ/FA which i dont consider pvp anyway, more like PvE on steroids.) Briar 01:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

And I suggest you do the same. People complained about Escape because it strengthened an already rediculous gimmick (expertise combined with scythe attacks) with a stance that gave IMS and a 75% block chance with a very small drawback. Sure, it had counters, but that does not make it balanced. But what did this have to do with SF and SB/PS again?

<<Because you know how fast ANet intended us to amass wealth.>>

Why do you think most elite armors cost around 70k each, materials included? That should be what someone should be able to get in a long stretch of time, not what you get for 4 UW runs. Koda Kumi 10:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Shard's responses

"There is a dedicated player base that completes elite areas and dungeons that wishes for things to remain as they are. We enjoy farming and making money. I am struck by the fact that the development staff consistently asserts that they regard farming as a legitimate method of playing the game. And just as consistently betrays that statement when solo and team farming areas and builds are changed."
Anet doesn't mind farming. They DO mind when elite areas (which are not supposed to be farmable) can be farmed easily and more effectively than when using a balanced team build.

"The effort I put into creating these characters, learning the runs, getting the correct equipment and skills, farming the consumables, testing, etc. will have been wasted"
So you made these characters specifically for using an overpowered exploitable build, and you were expecting it to not be changed eventually? These builds have "Nerf me" written all over them.

Your points are basically the same: "Don't nerf X because I like it." Unfortunately, this isn't remotely valid as an excuse to keep something broken in the game.

Now let me ask you a question. People who don't want to cheat (Shadow Form is a form of cheating) don't have these characters. It is impossible for them to be picked up for a group outside of playing with friends or guildies. People with SF or 600 builds can just say "SF lfg" and get a group instantly, whereas warriors, mesmers, necromancers, etc can't. Do you care that these people are completely unable to form groups in these areas? ~Shard 22:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, shard have you ever even done a DoA farm? Cuz they do in fact use all kinds of casters. And warriors. And paras. And pretty much every proffesion has its Niche in DoA farming. As well as FoW AND underworld. (i cite cryway, SF spiketeam, Manly spike). Certainly none of those teams are PUG'd out but thats because PUG's fail. Alot more than they succeed. Its not so much a matter of what build your running (even though that is a critical factor) But more about the trust level one places in PUG groups. You yourself, having played HA for a while, should understand the entirely minimal ammount of trust one puts in a PUG group. do you not? Briar 01:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

How many characters do you need to maintain a SF tank in an elite area?

How many characters do you need to maintain any other tank in an elite area? ~Shard 01:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

In DoA? 2 or 3. Obby flesh in DoA? 2 or 3. Using any other kind of tank in doa is retarded. Life Guardian 01:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The point of a tank is to stand up to massive ammounts of abuse on his/her own. Thus the answer SHOULD be, NONE. Obby tanks dont need help. They dont take damage. And what damage they do tank they heal back on their own. 600 tanks dont need a support. They only bring it because its more prudent to have on than not. And alot easier. 55 monks DIDNT need an help. Even though they do now. And to answer your question alot. a UA will or HB in a farm team will spend ALOT of time spamming heal party so that he can heal the SF tank from afar. And will even sometimes need to heal him back up after the spike. Briar 02:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, Food for thought, I read your latest rant about underworld. Apparently you lost in PvE. Just wondering, If the great and almight god of guildwars Shard cant do the underworld without a Shadow Form Tank, What are all the rest of us poor Nubs supposed to do? O_o Briar 02:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Since you aknowledge your status, and since you also admit that SF allows you to do what a more skilled player had trouble to do on one occasion, you already did what you were supposed to do: prove that something is wrong with guildwars. Yseron - 90.9.249.150 02:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Thus the answer [how many healers should be required to maintain a tank] SHOULD be, NONE."

Justify this to every game company on the planet who has made an RPG, because they all disagree with you bigtime. If you have the ability to stop 100% of incoming threats with one character (which is what you're saying SHOULD be the case), then the equivalent design scenario is to take all monsters out of the game and lower the party size by 1.

"If the great and almight god of guildwars Shard cant do the underworld without a Shadow Form Tank"

This is exactly my point. The ability of a team to do something in a game of skill should be directly correlated to that team's skill level. Your chance of success in Guild Wars (given that you're trying) is 100% reliant on the skills you bring, not on how good you are. This is a problem, and this is why Shadow Form is getting nerfed. ~Shard 02:40, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

No no, Dont go putting words in my mouth, I said should be able to take massive ammounts of abuse. Not that it should be be able to stop all incoming attacks. The only reason i think people should be allowed to use shadowform is because the other tanks are to slow. WAY to slow. And your missing the point of my question. My question was what are we supposed to do once shadow form gets nerfed? you yourself with your oh so incredibly powerful E-peen couldnt beat the underworld without a shadow form tank. So.... Once shadowform is nerfed, what are we gonna do? just, not do underworld anymore? Briar 02:50, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh noes, a challenge in a video game. Cause games aren't supposed to be interesting and challenging, you're supposed to have god mode. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 02:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

If it takes ZERO characters to maintain a tank (this means zero healing), how can he take massive amounts of abuse and not die? The only possible way to achieve what you said is for him to take no damage at all.

I'm sure once Shadow Form is nerfed, Anet will want to weaken certain parts of the underworld. During the time between the SF nerf and any UW changes, expect your ectos to go up in value ;) ~Shard 02:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Reckoning, Stop trolling. Im trying to have a real conversation here. Get over yourself please. Shard, What in gods name would make you think they would make anything easier? As far as i can see its gotten harder and harder no matter what they nerfed. They introduced skellys, But did they get ridd of dying nightmares? even though they WERE expressly introduced to stop 55'ers? nope. They did not. So what would make you think theyll make anything easier? Name one time when ANet has EVER made ANYTHING easier on their playerbase instead of forcing them to use more and more niche builds? Briar 03:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

In an update note related to hard mode they specified that they had tweaked down normal mode. Yseron - 90.9.249.150 03:15, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The skill updates they've been doing the past few months have been geared towards making SF less viable. Obviously, none of them worked. Aside from those updates, every update they've ever done in the past has made it easier for bad players to beat stuff. This is especially true for pvp. If they took Shadow Form, Protective Spirit, and Ob Flesh out of the game today, you could still beat every area in the game (except possibly DoA and UW). I'm sad to inform some people that some players might actually have to grow a brain to achieve such feats. Anet has been babying most of the pve player-base by giving them skills that might as well read "use this to win." They've only recently realized high-level GW is no longer a game, and are trying to fix whatever they have time for. ~Shard 03:25, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Name one time when ANet has EVER made ANYTHING easier on their playerbase" 1 - Removing area affects from normal mode DOA, 2 - PVE only skills, 3 - craftable consumables in EotN. There are THREE things that Anet has done just off the top of my head that has made things easier for their pve playerbase. -- Wyn talk 03:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Briar has absolutely no idea of what he/she is talking about, end of story. Before SF got buffed, people got fine with other forms of tanks(heck, I was in a guild that ran Earth Shaker as tanker in most elite areas(except DoA). SF just made doing these elite areas doable by closing one's eyes and pounding buttons in a specific order. Even Obsi tanks were susceptible to interrupts, and physical attacks in general; getting any skill interrupted = taking deaths. Note, these are ELITE areas, not plain normal areas where it would be fine to be easy. ELITE means it should take SKILL, not SKILLs.Pika Fan 11:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So the problem you have its the elite areas been farming like whe you farm it whit ursan and then who you cant farm it you dont want any other to do it -unsigned

The problem is the insane number of assassins with Obsidian armor and chaos globes that lurk around forming CS parties. They don't play as assassins, they play as perma, much like ursans didn't play as their professions, they played as a plain ursan. Farming is not the same as over-farming. And the perma build wnat past the line a long time ago. You are just used to it, and don't want to change. Like all those retrogrades that ask for reverts any time that they make a change in Facebook. Once the change is done, I bet they will make some changes to the assassin to make it more... attractive in PvE without the need of shadow form. They did that with the Ritualist. You can farm quite a bit with ritualists, but no way you can't overfarm in teams of 8 ritualist like you can with assassins. Thedecision is made, the change is in progress, and sooner or later we'll gate the update, and you'll have to cope with it. And I sincerely hope Anet doesn't retreat this time. MithTalk 18:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Skill balance changes. The next major skill update... will include big changes to Shadow Form... and changes to other prominent farming skills... pigs are flying, the fat-lady be singing, and hell has frozen over. --Falconeye 07:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)