Feedback talk:User/Tennessee Ernie Ford/Beyond Opt-out

Cannot be dropped?

Just to clarify, the issue here isn't just abandoning quests, though that is also an issue for WiK content. One can abandon WoC quests just fine, but the spawns do not return to normal.

From the lore perspective, it makes sense. Once you've learned about the impending threat and blah blah blah, there's not really a good reason for the enemies to just go back in the hole from whence they came until you decide to defeat them all.

However, it's a colossal pain to go do anything normal with a bunch of souped up baddies running around. And many exceptions have been and can be made on account of lore. There is never a good reason to compromise playability for lore consistency, especially for a game that does not center on the plot.

WiK content returns to normal after completing BLA (at least if no Wanted quests are active) so I would not be surprised or displeased if after completing all the WoC content that some explorables were beautified. It would be pretty awesome if we could actually see some results from all the killing we do, such as no more afflicted or something. Maybe less sludge in Kaineng. Winds of Change should actually change something, don't you think?

I'm also in support of using skill points for something other than cons, in pretty much any form. If that's for an optional NPC service, I'm all for it. --Axis 01:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, you can drop any particular quest, but it doesn't return you to pre-Beyond conditions. Ever. The closest to that in the primary campaigns is that you only have access to Nightfallen Garden until you complete the game...but then you can return to the Garden of Seborhin afterwards. In contrast, once you start WiK or WoC, you're stuck permanently with the new spawns; finishing those campaigns doesn't give you an option.

And, of course, this makes perfect lore sense. As you say, there's no good reason to compromise good play for good lore. That's why I'm suggesting it be done through a specific NPC (similar to the NF mission NPCs that tell you that you will be reliving the events of the past). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

"One can abandon WoC quests just fine, but the spawns do not return to normal." Keep in mind that while War in Kryta was being released, abandoning quests (when they began) did not remove the spawns either. One must complete The Battle for Lion's Arch in order to have spawns revert to normal. I expect this to remain the same for Winds of Change. Also note that with War in Kryta, the spawns change immediately, however with Winds of Change they only change as you progress (meaning that if you never start it, unlike WiK, spawns remain normal Factions spawns). Konig/talk 02:05, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I did a bit more testing and as far as WoC goes:

• If you have completed the current quest chain, the spawns are changed permanently, with/without quests.
• If you took the first quest and abandoned it (for a new player, perhaps), spawns remain as they are before WoC.
• If you took the first quest and completed it, spawns are affected for all WoC-dependent areas. I had the idea that maybe it would not change the area so long as you didn't take the quest for it, but that's not the case.

Perhaps they will do something like the WiK content when WoC is over, such as deciding that the Afflicted exist to bring balance to the gangs of Kaineng or whatever. Which would return the spawns to normal, but I'd love to have the NPC versus just running through the portal option that TEF mentioned for Garden. If they felt like it, they could only accept one version for HM vanquishing too. I'll try to put a warning up on the relevant content for now.--Axis 23:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, I used Shadow's Passage as a test, but I think saying that it changes all the spawns for all WoC dependent areas might be too sweeping of a statement. Because spawns are replaced by other high level spawns in some cases, and in some cases, such as Shadow's Passage, they are just added on to existing spawns, it is hard to say. I think it's still safe to say that you do irreversible 'damage' by completing Bukdek Byway, so it should be cautioned. Let's be more spoilerific: If you cleanse the afflicted from an area, expect the spawns to be replaced by Am Fah or Jade Brotherhood. Also expect to find some extra Am Fah or Jade Brotherhood in the relevant areas after completion of Cleansing Bukdek Byway. I don't know how to warn people, but I suspect word will hopefully get around for those who might not want to wait for phase two and three. --Axis 23:47, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Probably the worst offender is Minister Cho's Estate. Apparently after the rescue, the total number of foes doubles (or maybe triples) for the VQ. Never mind whether the groups are individually harder or not, that seems unfair. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I just attempted the Minister Cho's Estate vanquish. I started WoC like everyone else thinking it would be fun, now i regret the decision. I need the vanquish for the title and as of thus far i deem it impossible to do under reasonable circumstances. I used full consets, Pcons, summon stones, the best builds available to me, and after 30 minutes i had 64 kills completed. In that 30 minutes i completed maybe 10% of the vanquish meaning an area of about 600+ foes if I managed to finish. I fully understand the devs choice on replacing the afflicted foes from a lore standpoint. However this is as TEF stated, unfair, and wildly unbalanced. To take a fairly simple area on what is supposed to be starter island and turn it into the what i would call the most difficult area in Guild Wars. Well, that's not fair, not balanced, and not in the spirit of what the area is even supposed to be. If you asked me the foes that get added should be comparable to the foes that get replaced. These Scavengers are no where near what the afflicted were. Not even close. Definately needs either a balance, or the opt-out option. --Tea 21:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I also attempted the VQ in Minister Cho's Estate, and I can feel your pain, Tea. I understand the dev's idea of trying to make this challenging (from the number of enemies in a pullable group), but perhaps outside of the quests they shouldn't be, especially when not everyone are aware of that. Lorewise speaking, If the (campaign) missions are repeatable to begin with, the lore aren't supposed to make such permanent connectivity by design.

I hereby make this challenge to the devs: Since Winds of Change does not require Nightfall or Eye of the North, I would like to see 10 videos (1 from each primary profession) of a vanquish anywhere in Shing Jea Island with Winds of Change Spawns (so Haiju Lagoon, Zen Daijun or Minister Cho's Estate) done with Factions henchmen without the player character dying (this is imposed so you can't jsut spend 100k on the shrine for morale boosts). No Consumables are to be used unless it can be collected since the Start date of Winds of change and can be collected/made in Cantha (for example, summoning stones from urgoz or Deep can be used, but not the ones made by EotN npc's). K61824 23:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I also found this at the support forum: [1], if it helps anything. K61824 22:15, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference. More helpfully, we learn, "I brought up the issue with one of the designers and put a suggestion into the bug database. Hopefully we’ll be able to patch this in a future update so the normal explorable isn’t mind-numbingly difficult" — Zack Nickerson at the bug forum. In other words, this was not intended behavior (at least, for that one area). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I find it somewhat problematic that even the team members realize the explorable is "mind-numbingly difficult" and seem to have no problem with that being the case outside of 'normal' play. 'Mind-numbingly' should never be acceptable in any format. --Axis 09:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

If the devs find it difficult. They'll change it, when they can. I wouldn't say they seem to have no problem. It's apparent to being a problem and no doubt a bug. 72.148.31.114 16:38, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Plans to change

"We are aware of the difficulty of the post Winds of Change mobs, and we currently don’t have any plans of changing them." So they do intentionally make this mind-numblingly difficult... K61824 01:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

You've conflated several ideas:

1. Feature: Did they expect post-WoC and during-WoC mobs to be tougher than ordinary Factions?
2. Feature: Did they plan that people would be stuck with these challenges during WoC?
3. Did they plan on have 50-200% more foes for VQing Minister Cho's estate? See: Zack's original post
4. Did they plan on preventing folks engaged in WoC from helping toons new to Factions? (I haven't seen a definitive post on that topic, but I'm sure the answer is: no.)
5. And, last, but not least, how likely are they to allow folks to opt-out in the middle of the story? It would appear, not very.

So there are at least five different issues: ANet has addressed three and sorta implied an answer to the fifth. In other words, no: they did not intend this to mind numbingly difficult...just really, really, really hard. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:46, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I generally support an opt-out option.  It should be easy to code because it's not like there a physical impasse.  I think I might've engaged in WiK for one of my characters, but I definitely didn't like the harder foes in explorable areas, especially if I'd like to vanquish or just scrape for the cartographer title.  I totally agree that playability and user experience shouldn't be compromised.  My friends and I got this game for stress relieve and possibly an escape from the real-life difficulties at various stages of our life.  If the experience in the game simply duplicates all those problems (economic issues, class issues, hardships, concern over minute detail, etc.), then there's not much relief.  I love the adventuring aspects, but if the playing becomes a chore, especially when I can't pick it up after being away for a while (too much information), then where's the fun?  I think that my friends and I will at least avoid WiK and WoC as long as we can.  I've been a fan of the GW art, the missions/quests, some of the processes and rewards (haven't thought about an itemized list), but I'm not a fan of the extra stress it puts on my real life....  :/  Shawn@GWW 17:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I like this idea, but ...

I am in favor of this idea, or something like it. But, some other pieces could be altered that might serve the same function.

Specifically, think about party size. We defeated Shiro with a party of 8, not a party of 4. Lorewise, it makes no sense that we should be limited to a party of 4 just because it happens to be noob island. In fact, since all these historical events have passed, the towns (lorewise) should "already" be updated to allow 8 characters. Heck, Master Togo is DEAD after all.

However, this would be seriously unbalancing, since now truly new players could enter the zones with full-size parties. I'm sure plenty of other ways could be found to exploit it as well.

So, perhaps the better choice would be to create a "Ran Musu Gardens Keep" type of area, modeled after "Lion's Arch Keep". This could be done with each town.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there are enough empty spaces on the island to allow for such a thing. But, really, only the towns directly connecting to WoC-modified areas would need to exist. In fact, only ONE of these pseudo-towns would be needed for each zone WoC has a quest for (and perhaps one could "touch" two areas at once). This might be doable for the devs. They already have the code (they used it for LAK). The question is whether there is enough map room to pull it off.

Still, please don't take my comments as not favoring your idea. I like it, but I think there could be other things that could augment your idea.

Or another thought... An Npc In KC that automatically takes you to the explorable to vq out the afflicted, etc. w/out having to travel there, etc. and then go into it. There'd be coding of course to make sure all parties have done factions and all.. similar to that la keep, but possible to do and less likely of noobs. Better to vq the area via woc w/out it affecting the original area. We have something similar to this using npcs doing a few various areas in prophecies. I wouldn't object to this being done or changed in Factions. :-) Just additional supportive ideas for you Tef. :-) But Yea I kind of agree with this user's thoughts. It can be done w/out exploits from people who have not started WoC or have not done quests up to the quest another one needs to do. Easier to take along 7 other heroes or henchies. 72.148.31.114 05:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) (Very similar to Kaisha's idea above...)

I like your idea. I think it could be implemented easily in one of two ways: (1) by using an Embark Beach-like launching point or (2) by having the NPC who gives you the quest send you to the explorable (in fact, in order to enter several of the areas for quests, you have to speak to a gatekeeper NPC, who transports you to the area; HotN works this way for all its quests/missions). There's no reason why Rescue couldn't work like this. When you create the suggestion...I will endorse that part of the idea. For VQing ... I dunno.

BTW Opt-out is meant as the simple (simplistic?) idea that we should get to choose, rather than be forced to play in a world we didn't sign up for. But that also means that folks that want to VQ the old areas under the old rules, but with new spawns should get that opportunity, too. It isn't meant to address all the issues that people have raised regarding the difficulty of WiK/WoC (or the weirdness of being forced to play the same profession each time you do HotN). (It also isn't meant to address the fact that many of us believe that WoC spawns are bugged: toons that haven't finished Factions should be able to pair up with those who have completed WoC without adverse affect. As you have noted elsewhere, that's freakin' far from the case now.)

Thanks for your feedback on my idea. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 05:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

The other guys' comments has given me another idea: Time travel. Not really, but in the same manner as non-Nightfall characters get the speech from the guy in Chahbek Village telling you that you are about to re-live historical events. That way it fits into the lore, but still allows you to complete other goals using either the original spawns OR the WoC spawns. I mean, heck, even doing hard mode missions is a time-travel incident, if you think about it. You must already have killed Shiro in order to HM Minister Cho's Estate, right (or, someone on your account did).

Another option (which is kind of a hybrid of the other guys' ideas and yours) would be to have an NPC somewhere who can temporarily set you into "historical mode", but you can come back from it to continue or finish WoC, or even just to do WoC hard mode quests. The fee idea you had is good, but wouldn't really be necessary if the "this is a historical simulation" idea is incorporated.

I'm liking this more and more. I really would like to take my main character into WoC and see if he can handle it. But, there's no way I will until I KNOW that I can get back to normal so he can finish up his title hunting, if he fails. I know my other toons are simply not good enough to handle it, but Blasterus might be. But, I simply can't take the chance at this time. Daddicus 05:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm a girl. Anyway, I was thinking of things similar to like the Commando quests where he did time travel. Also, other quests like Hearts of the North, where you were teleported to the same explorable, but doing different missions, etc. 72.148.31.114 17:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with the starter island issues that have been brought up by everyone (I have myself as well). I also like a few of the ideas to remedy the most problematic of areas. However one thing we all need to take into consideration is the fact we may be jumping the gun on a key aspect. That being WoC isn't over yet. so to return to a "pre-WoC" like world should not happen yet since we havent seen the Bla like event yet. Afflicted may still be hiding in the nooks and crannies of the factions world. The scavengers may meet an exceptional fun end for us players to see at a future time. When that time comes perhaps all players will reap the benefits of finishing WoC, and be able to get a 1 kill vanquish from the newly cleansed areas. Much like how a factions character gets to have a 1 kill vq of Zen Daijun explorable. So before we completely scrap WoC and rail on the developers we need all the content first so we can make a proper assessment of the situation. So yes, as of now Minister Cho's Estate explorable in HM sucks, but who knows what WoC has in store for us in the future. At least that's my two cents on it. --Tea 17:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point on phases 2 & 3 coming! It is good to remember that. But, I think the OP's original point still applies. Characters might want to shift back and forth. I know I find it useful that I don't have to do those Sorrow's Furnace quests all back-to-back, because it frankly gets a little boring after a while. And, I really see the devs having done the right thing by moving Cantha out of, can we call them the dark ages? But, my big critique of WiK was that you had to do them all in order to get the spawns back to normal. I didn't like being forced to fight WiK foes for vanquishes and such. I suspect WoC will do the same thing at the end of phase 3, but unless that's right around the corner, the OP's idea should be given serious consideration NOW, to help people who are stymied by the changes. Daddicus 22:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

And that's exactly why the suggestion was made so early. Not only do we have to wait until the final content is out, but if we've made the "mistake" of starting the content at all ever, then, we'd have to finish it (however much/difficult it is) before we'd be able to theoretically(which we're not even sure of either) return to normal. And that's not always plausible/desirable for all the players who start the quest chains. --Axis 19:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

In support of easy opt-out from WoC spawns

I fully support TEF's call for opt-out from the modified spawns once you embark on Winds of Change --- these are ill winds, or a change too far.

Joking aside, it's mortifying to discover that your character has been compromised by a choice with such terrible consequences. The fact that my two main characters can no longer play with people in classic Cantha because several zones have been overrun permanently with overpowered foes is nothing short of terrible. If I were talking to ArenaNet here, I'd make no bones about it: "You have made a really harsh and unfriendly mistake which is to the detriment of the player base and of Guild Wars."

I'd go slightly further than TEF by adding the word "easy" as an important requirement. There is no game reason for making the opt-out any harder or costlier than the opt-out in WiK, which consists simply of deleting any active WiK quests. That's exactly how it should be done in WoC too, and is easy to arrange in principle. Instead of implementing your WoC involvement as a "hidden primary quest", make it an explicit one in the Quests window, and let it be abandoned at will, and re-taken at will too from some NPC.

There should be no extra costs here, as there is no need for them. The goal must be fun, and player-friendliness. Morgaine 18:11, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, when you start WiK, you have WiK mobs until you complete the entire story. IIRC, when you remove one of the intermediate quests, you might alter the spawns for the destination area, but you will still encounter PKs and the buffed-Mantle in all/most of Kryta (people have complained that you cannot drop the umbrella quest, which is the trigger for the spawns).

After you have finished WiK, taking any WiK bounty turns the War back on; dropping those bounties returns the game to classic Kryta. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

In support of "opt out", I've now taken this idea further and created my own suggestion on the topic (Improve user choice for WiK and WoC). I believe this suggestion brings a number of improvements with respect to the parent:

• It is significantly simpler: it requires no gatekeeper NPCs to revert zones, the player just abandons a single quest in the usual way. This makes it very easy for players to comprehend and leaves no uncertainties.
• It sticks to just the single issue of enabling / disabling a storyline, keeping the suggestion clear.
• It provides implementation details for how this can be achieved, based on quite simple state selection at the zone entry point. The key details are really quite minimal.
• It leaves no corner cases, because control is achieved through a single boolean condition, the presence or absence of a primary quest. This is immensely important for real production code, because it is not uncommon for the bulk of subsequent maintenance to involve fixing corner cases.

Being a software developer myself, I've tried to focus the suggestion on good software properties like control point reduction and simplicity, which hopefully appeal to developers since it generally helps improve their codebase. That said, I have no idea whether devs review these suggestions, or whether giving players a great game is viewed as more important than code. Either way, there's no doubt that GW players would benefit greatly from a good opt-out mechanism. Morgaine 19:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)