Talk:Keen Chop

Attribute/Skill Type

Anet, why put this under Axe Mastery, as it doesn't scale. And you list it as an attack, not axe attack, so no reason for it not to be under No Attribute. -WNxZexion 00:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Axe Mastery = Axe Attack. Always. 71.141.110.230 07:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

None of the warrior attacks seem to have the type of attack skills yet(note that there are at the moment, no "attack" skills in the game. There are melee attacks and attack skills for each of the various weapons, but not just "Attack"(although I think Smite actually used to be an attack...)). --Edru viransu 00:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I assumed Izzy meant "Melee Attack" when he typed "Attack" -WNxZexion 01:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Funny how the guy in the icon holds the axe with 2 hands. Reminds me of a Hammer skill icon. Sirocco 05:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, like http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Image:Pulverizing_Smash.jpg --Xapti 06:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This is melee only, requires axe, my script for adding this stuff to wiki was a little weak. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

If this was a melee attack only, it would be heavily abused by Dervish. Keen Chop + Wild Blow? Fro 08:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What one axe and hammer skill and sword gets two. I think disarm should be moved to strength.

Why this skill is bad

I wonder about this and Critical Agility. Seems to be balanced such that you just might pull it off. --Xeeron 09:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Total crap. You end up critting really often due to foes running away (you always critical against "fleeing" foes) so this is not actually a necessary type of skill and won't raise your damage much. As far as a follow up to guarantee you hit for a good ammount, it's always going to hit for the same medium-high damage, but Executioner's will hit for a lot more on a high hit or a critical, obviously. Even on bad hits, Executioners is pretty close to the level of what this skill will deliver. It's a very dissapointing skill. I'd use it if I could find some benefit to using attack skills very often. --TimeToGetIntense 11:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's my thought too. You autocrit often enough that +damage is more valuable. There's some potential in a Battle Rage build, but other than that I can't find a use for this skill. It really needs some bonus effect when it hits a moving target, like causing bleeding or maybe a bit of +damage or armor penetration. --Symbol 12:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this skill's description mean that it will ALWAYS hit? I.e. it can't be blocked? --  (CoRrRan / talk) 18:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Signs point to no, but adding "this attack cannot be blocked" might make it worthwhile. --Symbol 20:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Usually the line "This attack cannot be blocked." is attached to skill descriptions, but suddenly, Izzy is starting to work with "always hits"... --  (CoRrRan / talk) 22:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Even if this attack couldn't be blocked, I wouldn't use it. The effect of hitting with it is incredibly weak. --TimeToGetIntense 22:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't THAT weak. With 16 mastery and 13% AP this does 72 damage on average, while executioner's hits for 82 (both on 60 AL). It's just on a standard axe bar having a spammable adrenal attack is counterproductive, and autocrits make this weaker than it should be, since you always have the possibility for a huge crit on executioner's. Making it unblockable would make this a decent pressure skill on any bar where you use dismember instead of evisc, and potentially really great with battle rage, since you can do keen chop every other hit. Failing that it could have +1...10...11 damage or maybe +10-20% AP, it's dangerous to buff this too much. --Symbol 22:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree it needs dmg added to it.--Killer of Good 22:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am all for elegant simplicity, but this skill looks a bit too basic to even make it on to a skill bar ( for Axe Mastery anyway - it could have been quite handy for Enraged Smash in Hammer Mastery ). If it had 0.5 activation time, it would be a perfect supplementary skill for all those Energy using Axe Elites.

Izzy, certainly you could do something more exciting with this, I mean Whirling Axe and Cleave are already unpopular enough. ;x ~Seef II <☎> 06:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Having a spammable adrenal attack reduces your ability to charge more expensive adrenal skills, because every time you use it, you lose one adrenaline across your bar. Because of this, the skill needs to add a little bit of utility than it does. I'd recommend one of the following, in this order: -adds 1 adrenaline on hit, but with a 1 second recharge -give it a 1/2 second activation time -make it unblockable --Skye Marin 14:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

All it needs is to be Axe attack, so dervs,sins wont use it, activation time and unblockable will make it 2good =) Biz 14:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Axe doesn't need any more fast attacks and a fast attack with a 3a cost is too abuseable as an IAS anyway. The 1s recharge idea arguably makes the skill worse, since now it's now more like a 4a skill (the recharge drains your adrenaline so it takes 3 hits to charge) and it hurts synergy with fast attacks, since if you cancel right into prot strike or agonizing chop you won't build any adren for keen chop. Also, making it unblockable won't make it "2good", it brings it up to par. --Symbol 18:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well making it axeattack will stop assassins from using this with daggers or dervishes to use this with scythes, having critical hit is guaranteed 28 base damage with axe and -20 armor for target, this every third hit is good enough in itself. Biz 19:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

No it really isn't, because if you use it every third hit your other adrenal skills are going to take 50% longer to charge. Also you get lots of crits from smacking running people in the back anyway. Keen chop starts looking lame when you can use executioner's as a followup to evisc for a high likelihood of getting a 100+ damage crit, or when you can use agonizing chop or prot strike as fast followups to dismember. --Symbol 20:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I plan on doing something to this, I was thinking about it a bunch and I don't think without something else I'm gonna make this work, I'm not sure what I'll add but I'm gonna add something. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

How about adrenaline back if it is missed/blocked. It might see use then, as a high form of pressure.--Renegade 19:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I like that also. A mini furious axe of sorts: "if this attack is blocked you gain 0...2...2 strikes of adrenaline". That or making it unblockable both sound more interesting than just stacking on more damage. --Symbol 20:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well there is not a Cracked Armour Axe Attack yet, so how about something like "If target foe has Cracked Armour, you gain 1..3 Energy " ?

Pointless, since the warrior doesn't have any way to inflict cracked armor by himself and the effect is too weak to justify bringing this skill when you don't another character who can. --Symbol 12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Or, Attack. This attack has a +x...x chance of being a critical hit. If it results in a critical hit you gain 1..3 adrenaline.--Renegade 11:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That's way too powerful. You hit someone in the back and get 3 adrenaline so you can do it again? --Symbol 12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That will make it bad for wars while axe assassins will thrive on foolproof adrenaline gain and added critical chance that is likely to stack with what ever bonuses they got now. Biz 11:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Way of the Warrior shows Izzy doesnt mind A/W axe assassins and such. What do Sins do with adrenaline?--Renegade 11:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Way of the Warrior is Assasin skill its more effective on primary assassins then other professions, this doesn't mean that war skill Keen Chop should be more effective on assassins as well, returning all or 66% of adrenaline costs on every hit means you will be able to use this attack on every hit due to native crit hit buffs and skills of assasins not seen on warriors. Biz 11:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you could make the target bleed for 10 secs? when this attack hits.--Killer of Good 17:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, 0..10 would do. Biz 19:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Or what about a minor standard dmg and if it crit's it does..more dmg bleed or something in that direction, so that the name comes more along the skill keen arrow of the ranger.(81.69.210.23 22:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC))

Have it bypass critical hit protection. --Ckal Ktak 08:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, because stoneflesh aura and stone sheath are oh so common... --Symbol 06:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Assuming this gets buffed so it's not worthless as a damage skill... Pure damage skills aren't really worth a slot. Warrior DPS is already very high and you're better off taking utility skills. At this point there are so many utility skills you can take that you see a lot of Axe Warriors with only Eviscerate as a pure damage skill and Agonizing doubling as a followup and interrupt. If the enemy doesn't cast anything and you only have auto-attack damage, you'll win, so disables and interrupts are stronger than damage. What possible niche could Keen Chop fill with that in mind? --TimeToGetIntense 03:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with that premise. Yeah, lots of axe warriors are dropping executioner's, but even more aren't. There's a niche for pure damage skills as long as they do that well. In particular if you want to use another elite instead of eviscerate, there's a niche for _low-cost_ damage skills that can be paired with dismember. As for utility there are a few gaps that this skill could fit that I mentioned in my summary below. Right now I'm in favor of making this skill work like the ranger skill Keen Arrow. Some moderate unconditional +damage, with more if it crits. --Symbol 11:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Then it would just compete with Executioner's Strike for the follow up. I think the only new skills that should be added should offer diversity by giving Warriors more utility options. There are already skills that do pure damage and they are good enough at what they do. Making a new pure damage skill viable means making it stronger than old options, therefore causing power creep like Nightfall did. --TimeToGetIntense 00:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't compete on eviscerate bars, because of the mismatch in adrenal costs. But it would offer an alternative on other axe bars, which I think is worthwhile. I don't think it's the right approach to ask "would this fit on the canonical eviscerate bar?". That template is very mature and has little room for improvement. I'm approaching it from the standpoint of "would this skill make other builds possible?" or "would this skill make other builds better?" --Symbol 00:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

What about making this skill inflict Cracked Armor and upping the adrenaline cost a little? Axe doesn't have as good synergy for the condition as Sword, but it would let you run Body Blow on Axe if you want to, opening up your elite slot a bit. --TimeToGetIntense 12:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be really, really good. I'd be wary about giving the most popular weapon line easy access to both deep wound and cracked armor, which, along with daze, are the most powerful offensive conditions in the game. --Symbol 17:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Cracked Armor only de-tankifies Warriors, Rangers and Paragons. I think it's going to be no where as strong or necessary to score kills as Deep Wound is. The Warrior skills that require cracked armor won't be practical unless Warriors have some way to inflict it. Keen Chop would have it's niche if it did that. I think it wouldn't be bad because Axe has no skills that require Cracked Armor. It would just give you a pretty practical option for having Cracked Armor coming from somewhere for your GvG team, and open up that Axe Warrior's elite slot. Right now the only skill that looks appealing to use for Cracked Armor is Shell Shock, imo. --TimeToGetIntense 10:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

With the sneak peek coming up, any news on this skill? Or will it be buffed by release? ~Seef II <☎|→> 23:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the sneak peek is out. I tested this skill breifly in RA just to see the kind of damage it can do. Against 60 AL characters, I think it is worthwhile. Sure, it delays charging Evis if you spam it, but you can save it for after Evis. With 10 Strength and 14 Axe, it always hits 80 on 60 AL, so that seems pretty decent to me... the problem is that vs higher AL levels the damage drops sharply and it's suddenly not worth it at all. Any base 60 AL characters with shields or armor insigias took significantly less damage, usually around the damage of a normal crit. I'd say this skill is not worth running. I still think my previous suggestion, make it inflict Cracked Armor and raise the adrenaline cost, would be good. --TimeToGetIntense 18:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Are you sure you're hitting a 60 AL target? I just tried it with 16 axe and 13 Str and it hits for 72 damage every time like I calculated. --Symbol 03:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, maybe some guys had less than 60 or sundering triggered a few times in a row... Well, I did not test on dummies because I wanted to see what kind of damage I would see against a bunch of different actual people running armor insignias and stuff. But that's pretty bad if it only hits 72 on 60 AL with 16 Axe, 13 Strength. I was sorely mistaken about th effectiveness of this skill even against 60. One thing is for sure, I saw a huge decrease in damage vs casters with shields, casters with extra armor, and 70 base AL characters. Bonus damage is just so much more practical when you take armor into account. --TimeToGetIntense 04:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Attack correction

This is melee only, requires axe, my script for adding this stuff to wiki was a little weak. ~Izzy @-'---- 19:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed to axe attack so ppl dont get it confused with an attack that works with anything, thus leading them to think its over powered.(this + scythe) Lou-Saydus 16:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Question about wording on Keen Chop

Does "This attack always results in a critical hit." mean that the attack can't be blocked? --Symbol 04:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No. it just means that you do a higher amount of damage the with a usual hit. see Critical hit for more info. I think ur mixing stuff up with Wild Blow

I know what a critical hit is, thanks. That isn't the question. --Symbol 19:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Considering Wild Blow also states that it can't be blocked then i would say no it can be blocked. Knight of Dark Soul 14:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

So it either needs to say "If it hits, this attack always results in a critical hit" OR "This attack cannot be blocked and always results in a critical hit"

Summary

The discussion is getting unwieldy so I decided to summarize the problems with this skill, which are:

1) Autocrits devalue this skill. On a standing level 20 foe you can expect about 20-25% of your hits to result in a critical. In PvP enemies kite and that number is probably closer to 50%.

2) Spammable adrenal skills hamper adrenal build up.

3) No utility.

Fix any one of these and it'll be worth taking.

For 1), you can add damage for striking a fleeing foe. Something like "If this skill hits it always results in a critical hit. If it hits a fleeing foe you strike for +5...17...21 damage." That way if you get an autocrit you haven't wasted your adrenaline. The +damage seems reasonable, half the +damage of executioner's for about half the cost, and it's conditional. Alternatively you could get rid of the "always crit" mechanic and go with an additional effect if you crit, like Keen Arrow. Say "If this skill hits you do +5...17...21 damage. If it results in a critical hit you do an additional +5...17...21 damage". The unconditional effect is fair, in that it offers roughly the same amount of +damage over time as executioner's at the cost of slower adrenal buildup, but the bonus damage on critting makes it attractive as an alternative damage skill for use with dismember.

To fix 2) you can change the cost to 4a and change the effect to "If this skill hits it results in a critical hit and you gain 1 strike of adrenaline". That way you can spam it without hampering your other adrenal skill buildup. The closest comparable skill is Sun and Moon Slash, which costs twice the adrenaline but stronger (you get two hits and double damage from any buffs like conjures or orders) and it can't be blocked.

For 3) you need to look at what axe is lacking. I see two things, a way to hit past block and an easily accessible cover condition for deep wound. So for utility add '"This attack cannot be blocked"' or '"If this skill hits it results in a critical hit. If it hits a foe suffering from deep wound that foe starts bleeding for 1...10...11 seconds."' --Symbol 01:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Or just PvE with this and Whirling Axe... for sure, nothing special. But there, mostly higher DPS than beloved Eviscerate builds. 91.0.246.226 22:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the above. Spammable attack skills may be a no-no in PvP, but its pretty acceptable in PvE (what isn't, but that's another arguement). And although people mention that autocrits happen at a frequent rate, Strength gives this skill some validity, since this IS an attack skill.--98.114.196.97 08:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions

To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 23:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Colpo Affilato --YukoIshii 23:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Russian: "пронзительный (рубящий) удар" Or "пронзительный удар" to avoid having "Sharp Pork-Chops" If some one tryes to translate directly =D Biz 06:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Decapitate?

"Find Their Weakness!"

Keen Chop

Blank

Blank

Blank

Blank

Blank

Blank

And you don't lose all your energy. If ever, now that elite needs some kinda work. ~ Chao 21:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you only lose about half your energy. :S

W/P using an axe seems like a waste. Vili 点 21:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

or just use dismember.--Underwood 17:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The point isn't this being a good combo, but rather that you can achieve the same effects of the elite and use a better one (at the expense of one less skill slot). I guess some elites just sux alot. ~ Chao 23:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Except this doesn't do a shitload of damage meanwhile. Fox007 11:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Stoneflesh Aura

Is this skill bypasses the effect of Stoneflesh Aura and Armor of Unfeeling? Goril 17:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Those kind of skills now grant immunity to c-hit. I think at best this will just do the axe's full dmg. Justice 22:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Not good nor THAT bad

I don't get all those criticism. Sure, this skill is not really powerfull. Quite weak in hard mode and probably useless for PvP, since many people runs like headless chickens, almost granting criticals in most hits. But in PvE you usualy battle stationary foes (or you should, damn you're a warrior, you are suppose to try to take aggro even if you're not playing a tanking build). Now, let's see a little comparison of some low-adrenaline axe attacks. We have: 1.-Keen chop. 3 adrenaline strikes. 2.-Cleave. 4 adrenaline strikes. Elite status. 3.-Penetrating blow/chop. 5 adrenaline strikes. 4.-Lacerating chop. 5 adrenaline strikes. Yeah, it causes bleeding to KD'd foes... not even worthy of mention. Tested those 4 cheap axe attacks (being Keen chop the cheapest) against stationary foes in the isle of nameless. Here are the average results after 20 blows with each skill against 60, 80 and 100AL targets (14axe/13strength, no sundering mod to provide more accurate results)

• 60 AR

Keen chop 67 avg dmg

Cleave: 68.25 avg dmg

Penetrating blow/chop: 60.3 avg dmg

Lacerating chop: 59.9 avg dmg

• 80 AR

Keen chop 50 avg dmg

Cleave: 52.15 avg dmg

Penetrating blow/chop: 48.05 avg dmg

Lacerating chop: 46.95 avg dmg

• 100 AR

Keen chop 37 avg dmg

Cleave: 47.7 avg dmg

Penetrating blow/chop: 41.05 avg dmg

Lacerating chop: 40.9 avg dmg

So, not bad at all for a 3 adrenaline cost skill. Yeah, I know that spamming adrenaline skills slows the adrenaline gain for either eviscerate or executioner's. But the fact is that even against 100AR (not that low since in HM most people brings a necro with spammable aoe cracked armor (name it Weaken Armor)) it makes nearly same damage as 5 adrenaline cost skills and makes more damage than those skills against 60 and 80AR foes, making it a great skill for normal mode, and a decent skill even for hard mode. Sure it could get a buff, but should be very little or it may end OPed. Unblockable seems right at least for PvE, as it would be a nice addup, but beeing a low-mid damage skill it wouldn't be OPed at all.

All this makes me wonder what skills shuold we be complaining about. Lhoj 11:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)