Talk:Otyugh's Cry

i got this skill from the skill trainer in lions arch, but it doesnt say you can get it from him on the page. is this wrong, or just a glitch? Danny 12:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If the skill is unlocked on your account you can get it from any trainer in the campaign. Misery 12:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivia

Theres no way the old version was THE poorest skill design. the trivia bit is just filler and really should be re-worded / deleted. Far too many other skills that suck worse then this and havnt been changed since prophecies release--Justice 10:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

It's talking about bug-wise skill design. Although, Signet of Ghostly Might (PvP) killed Guild Lords in 10 seconds, so I disagree with the statement of this being the poorest skill design anyway... PowerGamer 18:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It had very little effect in most PvE areas, because low level wild animals do barely any damage, the pets are hostile both to your team and the enemy, and it is useless in PvP. Couple that with long recharge, it was simply the biggest waste of a slot on a skill bar ever in its original form115.188.219.43 06:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The old version cold be fun though.. (especially if they'd changed it just a lil' bit) --The Holy Dragons 06:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Skill name trivia

There is an event in Guild Wars 2 that requires the player to defeat Chief Otyugh, an ogre. Ogres are known to have tight bonds with their pets, and indeed he has two pets; ->connection to beast mastery attribute of this skill. In the game it says that he's older than 300 years, putting him into the timeline of the original GW, therefore, I am deducing that the skill is named after him. I took a look at the otyugh monsters from dnd, and there are no similarities, they look completely different and have no pets. So I deleted that bit of trivia too. Thoughts ? 192.168.103.52 10:56, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Even though it says in GW2 that the ogre lived during GW, doesn't mean the creators had even thought of him when they created Prophecies 7 years ago, and with it this skill. Saying this skill is named after something the created later, sounds kind of weird. It makes sense within the universe of GW, but not in our world. I'd say the trivia should include the name is taken from D&D, purely because the name is so unusual, that I doubt the Skills creators came up with it by coincidence. Don't forget D&D was the father of roleplay or something, so it's often related. But the note about the ogre should stay as well. That's my opinion at least. Gaudy Gourd God 11:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

First of all, just because Otyugh doesn't physically appear in GW1 doesn't mean he wasn't created then (Ree and Jeff do this all the time, they call it "setting hooks", http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/327657138), and just because Otyugh from dnd have the same name doesn't mean that this skill was in any way inspired by it (in fact, when you look at how the otyugh look and how they act, you know it has nothing to do with it). Look at it again:

The skill's name is Otyugh's Cry. The chieftain's name is Otyugh. The skill is in beast mastery. Ogres have beasts. Otyugh lived during GW1. It's the same world.

The only thing dnd has going for it is the name. True, the name is uncommon, it can't be a coincidence that the name is the same. So, fine, keep the dnd part in, but I'll be damned if somebody tries to delete my Chief Otyugh trivia.

p.s. Do you think that Chief Otyugh is ALSO based off dnd otyugh ? Try and come up with connections other than the name there. MadSkillz1o1 09:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The boss is more likely named after this skill. This trivia belongs to gw2wiki. Ich bin marc 17:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

This skill was named after the unique monster in the D&D universe. Years and years later, they also named a boss mob in a different game after the same unique monster in the D&D universe. How is that difficult to understand? -Auron 03:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

And you feel that (in addition to what you said right now) there is NO additional connection between Chief Otyugh and the skill Otyugh's cry ? None worthy of a trivial mention? YOU don't decide if the connections I stated might be valid, and granted, neither do I. To avoid further conflict I'll try to get a line out of Ree (who does decide if the connections are valid, since she or Jeff make them). If she doesn't reply, we'll leave the page as it is, though I think that's a shame. MadSkillz1o1 13:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The devs replied. Basically they said that the developer who originally created the skill name was no longer with the company, and they don't know. I quote: "We believe that it may have been connected to the Dungeons and Dragons name "Otyugh" (he was diseased, foul-smelling, and lived is sewers) but we can't confirm this either.

In Guild Wars 2, the ogres were a race of powerful humanoids who had a deep dedication to their pets - they would be a race of rangers, as it were. The idea of Otyugh being an Ogre's name was pretty cool, and Otyugh's Kraal (from the South African kraals and the ancestor of our Western US "corral") was a good name. So the Chief of that aread became Chieftain Otyugh. Ogres are extremely long-lived. It is just as likely that Otyugh is a historically powerful name and this may be a descendant of that original Otyugh."

So I guess that, at the moment, the truth is unavailable, and the page stays as it is. Either of us might still be right or wrong. 212.235.186.230 11:14, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

No, really. Nothing has changed. The original guy named this skill after the D&D monster. The monster is pretty popular, and is featured in a handful of webcomics and videogames. Every time you see "Otyugh" used, it is in reference to the original D&D monster made by Gary Gygax in the 70s. Nobody names a monster "Otyugh" by accident. -Auron 11:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

"The original guy named this skill after the D&D monster." - thank you for your opinion Auron, but if you will direct your attention to the only relevant piece of data we have, that is, a statement from the developers, you will see that this is unconfirmed. From there take your pick: leave your unconfirmed statement and quit trying to remove mine, or remove or reword your own. Note that I have loooong since accepted your bit of trivia and agree that it should be on the page.

TIP: On the page Defeat Chief Otyugh on GW2 wiki, which I have not touched, is a wonderful trivia section. Can you guess what it looks like?

• The chief's name, Otyugh, could be a salute to a creature in Dungeons & Dragons.
• In Guild Wars, there is a beast mastery skill called Otyugh's Cry.

MadSkillz1o1 19:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

What I see here is a serious case of circular logic. The chieftain is named after the skill, and the skill is named after the chieftain; but that just doesn't make sense, especially since one was published seven years before the other. On the contrary, there is a brazenly obvious article of which Otyugh's Cry could be a reference to: the otyugh itself, which was first published in 1977 and purportedly created by Gary Gygax himself.

I would like to, at this point, challenge the reader to find an "otyugh" that is not a reference to the original creature, above, or the purpose of this discussion; in my ten year history of nerdiness, I have yet to find any. (The creature from the garbage masher in the detention level of the first Death Star in 0 BBY and before doesn't count; that's a dianoga, and was published earlier in the same year as the otyugh.)

Moving on, there are two primary reasons to believe that this skill is a reference to the otyugh of Dungeons & Dragons fame as opposed to a reference to the boss of Guild Wars 2. The first is that ArenaNet's tendency to create references to various aspects pop culture (or, at the least, some form form of culture); the second is that Occam's razor proves that this specific skill is a reference to that specific otyugh.

ArenaNet's history of making references within their game is obvious; we have skills such as Discord whose icon represents a popular figure fitting for the skill itself, Little Izzy references a real-life folk hero, notorious outlaw, and game designer, Signet of Spirits makes reference to one of the best parts of the Star Wars prequel trilogies, &c. &c. (By contrast, in-universe references such as Zojun's Shot and Zojun's Haste being named after the character Zojun are comparatively rare.) There are literally hundreds of references, perhaps even thousands, in the game. In my opinion, the most memorable ones are skills and related assets, likely because I encountered them more often than the references in dialogues, mission and quest text, &c. I believe there is sufficient proof for parties to agree that Otyugh's Cry can be a reference to something; in fact, I expect there was little argument on that front in the first place.

When multiple hypotheses are presented in a debate or scientific environment, one method of determining validity is to use Occam's razor. It should be noted that Occam's razor is no substitute for hard evidence, research, and general scientific effort; however, in this situation, evidence and research left beyond our grasp when the employee who created this skill left ArenaNet. In their absence, Occam's razor states that "among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected."

The first hypothesis on this page was presented some years ago when Guild Wars: Prophesies was released. The hypothesis states that Otyugh's Cry references the creature published in the AD&D Monster Manual in 1977. There are, of course, some assumptions to this hypothesis: the assumption that the skill designer would know what an otyugh is, and the assumption that the otyugh is an important enough symbol that the designer would think to make a reference to it. However, it is plain to see that these are relatively small assumptions: due to Dungeons & Dragons' popularity, especially during the time frame of the otyugh's publication and republication, it is not uncommon for game designers making nerdy games to be familiar with what is often touted as the highest standard of nerdy games, and from one's familiarity with D&D, it is not unrealistic to assume that one would be familiar with the monsters of the system. After all, how many people on this wiki are familiar with the histories of the Mursaat, the Margonites, the Forgotten, &c.? Due to the otyugh's many variants (the neo-otyugh, the lifeleech otyugh, and the gulguthydra), it is reasonable (and, indeed, correct) to assume that the otyugh made a number of appearances past its original debut in the Monster Manual in 1977, thus increasing its popularity and notability. As we've already seen, ArenaNet makes something of a habit to make reference to popular and notable icons; as such, the assumptions that Otyugh's Cry is a reference to (A)D&D's otyugh are few and small.

The assumptions for the second hypothesis are neither. The second hypothesis states, in essence, that Otyugh's Cry is named after a Guild Wars 2 boss published nearly a decade later. There are several assumptions in this hypothesis: in addition to the two above, this hypothesis assumes that the boss Otyugh was created around the time Otyugh's Cry was created (thus, the skill and the boss would have a connection where one could reasonably state that the skill references the boss, instead of the boss being formulated much later and named after the skill). The hypothesis also assumes that the boss, once created in the development of Prophesies, was placed on the proverbial backburner until the development of Guild Wars 2, without being forgotten, discarded, or modified. Due to the vast difference in time between publication of the skill and the boss, and the human mind's perpetual forgetfulness of minor details (in this case, compared to such items as the backbone of the Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 game design, world development, lore, skills, &c., all of which were vastly edited between the two games), I find this in particular to be a rather unwieldy assumption. Finally - and perhaps I am repeating myself on this front - this hypothesis assumes the designers chose to inter-reference Chief Otyugh and Otyugh's Cry instead of simply referencing the much more well known otyugh of D&D mythos. Once again, I find this assumption difficult to rectify with other information available.

If there were some measure of proof leaning towards one hypothesis or the other - for example, confirmation from the developers that the two were distinctly related, as opposed to being similar products from the same general train of thought that passed by multiple people, or knowledge that the same developer worked on both the skill and the boss - I would entertain and support an argument to post the hypothesis with proof on the main page and either reduce or remove mention of the other. However, as it is, we must use Occam's razor to choose a hypothesis; my work above has shown that Occam's razor supports the original hypothesis presented on this article, and that the existence of a similarly-named boss in Guild Wars 2 is merely coincidental trivia.

It is also notable that some of the logic presented above is inconclusive. "[J]ust because Otyugh from dnd have the same name doesn't mean that this skill was in any way inspired by it[...]." Likewise, simply because the Guild Wars 2 boss Otyugh shares his name with this skill does not necessarily mean that the boss was inspired by the skill, or that either the skill or the boss were inspired by the AD&D monster. As said above, in the quest to find proof of any connection, we must "[t]ry and come up with connections other than the name[...]"; thus was proposed the connection between an ogre exhibiting talents representative of the Guild Wars Beast Mastery attribute and this skill within that attribute. However, it is important to realize that while this evidence proposes a connection between Chief Otyugh and Otyugh's Cry, the evidence neither proves nor suggests that Otyugh's Cry is named after Chief Otyugh (as was originally presented), nor the opposite - that Chief Otyugh is named after Otyugh's Cry.

The question was posited: "Do you think that Chief Otyugh is ALSO based off dnd otyugh ?[sic]" This question, I believe, was answered later in this discussion, though the quote doing so was taken slightly out of context: "We believe that it may have been connected to the Dungeons and Dragons name "Otyugh" (he was diseased, foul-smelling, and lived is[sic] sewers)[...]." Not knowing the exact question asked of the developers, this response is not perfectly clear; however, it would appear that the word "it" refers to Chief Otyugh instead of the skill Otyugh's Cry ("he was diseased, foul-smelling..." [emphasis mine] - skills are gender-neutral, not male), suggesting that Chief Otyugh was named after the AD&D monster instead of the Guild Wars skill (and, on a related note, I am inclined to agree with Auron when he says "Every time you see 'Otyugh' used, it is in reference to the original D&D monster made by Gary Gygax in the 70s"). However, even if I am mistaken, the alternative reading presents evidence that "[the ArenaNet team] believe[s] that [the skill Otyugh's Cry] may have been connected to the Dungeons and Dragons name 'Otyugh'", which - even ignoring the results of Occam's razor above - could be construed as support for the original hypothesis. Lacking superior proof (e.g. a copy or screenshot of the correspondence), I believe this is the best support we will find in favor of either hypothesis.

Due to the lack of evidence supporting either hypothesis discussed above and the results of applying Occam's razor, I believe this article should keep its original trivia note - that Otyugh's Cry is named after the otyugh found in Dungeons & Dragons - and have a note added referring readers to the Guild Wars 2 Wiki page for Chief Otyugh, similar to how Guild Wars 2 Wiki handles their page on this topic.

Should my discussion be encouraged or required further on this topic, I shall be reachable - if not immediately, than indirectly via my contacts on the wiki - to continue in discourse.

-- Armond Warblade 09:15, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The skill is most likely a reference to D&D, and the chieftain a reference to this skill; however, that does not mean we couldn't list it as trivia here (tbh, I hadn't known of this discussion when I added the trivia note). Quite a few articles make a trivia note of related GW2 facts - take Alesia for instance, there a trivia note about her grave being in GW2. I think that this note is more or less the same, and it gives no harm to denote that there's a GW2 boss with this skill's name. Anyways, I think the way I wrote it ended up better than the old version, since it's not making any presumption on what the skill was named after. It's stating, as TEF often put it, "just the facts, ma'am." And that's all we should denote: there's a D&D monster of the same name, and there's a GW2 boss of the same name.

Beyond this, stop arguing "What came first the chicken (ogre) or the egg (skill)?" because it's pointless to debate. Konig 23:40, 11 March 2013 (UTC)