Talk:Shelter

after testing it i noticed that when there is a shelter down,and a monk is casting prot spirit on his/her party. one of the members takes a spike of damage. the effect that was laid down first is the one which causes the effect of preventing upwards of 10% of thier max hp. this means that in a normal battle where a shelter spirit is laid down at the beginning, a monk in the party cannot protect the spirit with his /her enchantments. this means theres no synergy in this situation and makes being a protection rit much harder. my suggestion for a buff to rits is to change the way the rit spirits stack so that in battle, a prot monks enchantments trigger before the rit spirits so that the spirits dont take damage all the time and as such last longer. this rewards a good monk by allowing his ritualist partner to have his protection spirits up for longer and thus protect the party which makes it easyer on the monk. this would be a balanced and subtle buff to the ritualist in PvE without giving them too much power in PvP. this kind of thing might even make some PvE situations like fighting malyix the unyeilding actualy possible without jsut nerfing him.124.190.0.218 00:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

With 16communing and 16spawning power this spirit can reduce the dmg from 6 hits at most, yea thats worth the skill slot, cast time, recharge 76.26.189.65 23:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea well most of the spirts are being ruined even tho they were fair before this is just overkill. 75.191.190.36 12:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)ChanneledChaos

Are you guys crazy? This is way better than Protective Spirit. Protective Spirit falls flat to Shelter, 25 energy, 5 seconds cast time and not to mention a 45 recharge? What other skill have this? This is unique! It not like I can waste 20 energy for two Protective Spirits, screw that! Waste 25 energy, wait 5 seconds and last...tada, 4 attacks and even less if its under fire! ....Note:Sarcasm.--ShadowFog 05:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Too bad Anet had to horrible ruin any spirit builds. I mean honestly. It's not viable to use ANY of these protection spirits. It's just NOT worth the spot in the party when another class can do a better job overall, and, you know, provide some other support. Not like this energy-sucking 4 second "whoopdeedoo" skill. Anet: PLEASE BUFF SPIRITS. If not for pvp, then at least for pve. These spirits are USELESS as of now. 99.242.245.57 06:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Icon

any1 besides me think the icon looks like a spirit munching on a boys head? lol Jububju 23:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

BRAINS!Noelahg 22:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You called? -- Brains12 \ Talk 22:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

omg.. lolled so hard xD78.20.153.111 19:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

25 Energy

Even with the one second casting time and +levels in pve I still have qualms taking this on my Rit when I'm healing, True the effect is quite powerful but 25 energy is pretty much (if not over) half my energy pool. Anyone else find this spirit wanting? Weaponmaster 07:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Rits have so many e-management skills, that I never found the energy cost too big. I'd like a small tweak to health loss of the spirit or spirit level in PvP, though. Mediggo 07:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

i used to run this with Soul Twisting back in the day. perma prot spirit on the entire party is hard to beat. -Auron 07:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

When and where? Mediggo 07:50, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

2006-7 high-rated gvgs, replaced the ritual lord rit in this build with it when ritual lord got nerfed. -Auron 07:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice. I really liked to play that Songkai resto build, too. How did you manage the energy with Shelter, though? Recasting it every so often seems little too much energy consumption to me. Mediggo 08:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it was 10 or 15 energy back then actually >.> -Auron 09:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Apparently. Mediggo 09:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Ritual Lord + Armor of Unfeeling

With Ritual Lord and Superior Runes, you can boost this skill to level 20. Combine that with Armor of Unfeeling, this spirit can soak a whopping 30+ hits before going down. --167.167.15.254 22:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Even with all that, 30 hits doesn't seem like that much, especially with a decent sized enemy mob. Guildwarsrunner 23:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

firstly, 30 hits is actually quite a lot, even considering the effect will be shared out among the entire party, wututalkingabout? and secondly wth are you using Rit Lord with this for? ST all the way :P 90.206.126.72 18:36, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Additional Table

Progression
Spawning Power1 Max effective thresholds w/Armor of Unfeeling	0 5 10 1 5 10 2 5 11 3 6 11 4 6 12 5 6 12 6 6 12 7 6 13 8 7 13 9 7 14 10 7 14 11 7 14 12 7 15 13 8 15 14 8 16 15 8 16 16 8 16 17 8 17 18 9 17 19 9 18 20 9 18 21 9 18

¹Actual effective damage capped before dying; assuming spirit gains no damage/health. The number of "threshold damage reduction" is based on level 12 Spirit of Shelter using 15 ranks in Communing.

I've removed the table from the main article again, because the values disagree with the table at Spirit. Also, the table has many assumptions which might make it more confusing and less useful than intended.

If you're convinced your math is sound, please explain your calculations so we can figure out the discrepancy and work on a more useful presentation.

I'm currently leaning towards a more generic note, something along the lines of

"To figure out how often Shelter can reduce damage based on your Spawning Power attribute, consult the Spirit health table."

Tub 11:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I support the table's removal. It assumes things that can easily be untrue during combat (in particular, mobs often attack spirits, which diminishes the utility quickly). The main point is that, under ideal conditions, Armor of Unfeeling could double the amount of attacks for which Shelter reduces damage.

Also: the details in the table are... not really all that helpful. If you haven't decided to make Shelter a staple of a rit-prot build, then level of detail in the table is likely to confuse rather than help you change your mind. If you already include Shelter regularly, then you aren't likely concerned about the exact number of attacks (you just know that it helps keep the team alive). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 15:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I am trying to create a useful breakpoints at a glance while minimzing math/load memory and without increasing clutter or using ugly bars; especially for newer players, those who dont have the time/patience to math-check, and those (like me) who are extremely tired having to "play 20 rit questions" to allies/friends. Assumptions are based the most likly propability and conditions this spirit will be utilized by the player, such as . As with other "help charts" added over the years, the primary progression table isnt of much use when it comes to practical application (i.e, WOW, my spirit lives for 90 seconds! [dies in 3 seconds]). A passive spirit's level/duration/etc ultimately dont matter outside being directly attacked by foes (at which point you may be doing something wrong), nor are they helpful at estimating the usefulness of utility skills. Above Example: at a glance, the bar tells me my tank is protected from 8 spikes, or that on average the tank is safe for the next 8 seconds divided by X "spiky foes" (from experience) provide i dont use use Summon Spirits to gain an additional 100 hp (or +2 seconds), or protect my entire 8-man party from wipeout via single End-boss attack.

Also, Shelter are a staple to Prot rits as Protective Spirit are to Prot Monks and ER-Ele's. --Falconeye 20:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that it is complex enough to not be able to be represented easily. It's kinda like Pious Renewal where you can't fit it into the 0..15 schema. About the only table that would be complete and accurate would be a 2-d table with Communing on one axis and Spawning power on the other (similar to the table on Spirits). and at that point, it's a little much. --JonTheMon 20:12, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you trying to build a chart that will allow people to re-spec their builds? If that's the case, then I recommend that you sandbox it and ask for feedback from ppls that like to spec. Specifically: ask them what would be helpful to newer players.

However if your goal is to let people know that, properly maintained, shelter can help a tank, then a short bullet will get the job done (and be more useful to more people).

Regardless, please try working with everyone else. You've gotten direct (this page) and indirect (reversions) feedback that what you have offered so far doesn't meet the community's best understanding of what might be helpful to the article. In other words, make a stronger case that the article is missing something important and engage others to help fill in the gap...or accept that others feel that the article doesn't need the data. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The primary table isn't meant to provide the data some editor considers helpful for other players, it's meant to document the game. No more, no less. GWW:SKILLS says that this table should only include the green numbers from the skill description, no derived values. We may bend that rule occasionally (Shadowsong comes to mind), but in those cases it should be factual values that don't require complicated assumptions.

In other words: facts and documentation first. Hints, helpful advice and synergies to the Notes section, opinions to the Talk Page.

Re: usefulness of your table: It's absolutely useless for my rit, since she's using a +1+3-headpiece, reaching 16 communing instead of 15. What may seem helpful or reasonable assumptions to you may seems useless or exotic to others. Tub 23:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

~Jon - 2-d table has been attempted repeatedly; its overkill (and sloppy).

~TEF = Such as this?

Progression
Spawning Power1 Max effective thresholds w/Armor of Unfeeling	0 6 11 1 6 11 2 6 12 3 7 12 4 7 13 5 7 13 6 7 14 7 7 14 8 8 15 9 8 15 10 8 16 11 8 16 12 8 17 13 9 17 14 9 18 15 9 18 16 9 18 17 9 19 18 10 19 19 10 20 20 10 20 21 10 21

¹Effective damage capped triggered before dying; assuming spirit gains no damage/health. The number of "threshold damage reduction" is based on level 13 Spirit of Shelter using 16 ranks in Communing.

~Tub - Better?

--Falconeye 02:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for setting up the sandbox and allowing it to be edited by anyone. Unfortunately, I still don't see the gap that you are trying to fill in these articles. So, I'm at a loss to suggest changes that would make the tables more useful to the general reader.

You've no doubt noticed that I have a couple of dozen pages setup with data that I have found useful, but haven't proposed to be migrated to the main space. Sometimes I add a note to the relevant mainspace talk page to see if anyone goes, "wow, this would be useful", but mostly it's there for my use...and so I can direct friends to it.

That seems like something you might try with these tables...at least until you can help the rest of us to understand what you are trying to do. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:54, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Falconeye, the most accurate and complete table of what you are thinking of would look similar to Spirit#Health_and_armor, since that would be able to correlate the attribute with spawning power. However, that would likely be a bit of overkill to have a table for each skill that works in such a way. --JonTheMon 04:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

What im trying to comunicate in my sleep-deprived state is this: using Tubs'-bar example, that Spirit of Shelter has base 563 health. Yes that sounds quite a lot, but its meaningless. This spirit has X level/armor/health/lifespan, great! How does that help translate into predicting how many remaining seconds (or "ticks") needed to fireoff synergistics skills and maybe "teardown" before it blows up and suffer downtime. Most other skills have concrete/measurable/variable numbers and easily grasped breakpoints, while spirits are a variable mess in comparison. Combined experience/testing seemingly shows that they follow a predicable breakpoint pattern, which likely explains why Anet chose those Levels back when they updated, which im trying to translate in terms of predictable "durations" or "ticks", as if they didnt have health/lifespan. Something alot more intuitive then just saying "Buff that spirit with SP-steroids and mindlessly spam it to hell". If im failing to help you'll understand, then im not surprised since i failed debate class. And TEF, many of your pages are superior and more interesting then half the main page articles (Konigs' also); cannot understand why you'd prefer to hide them whithin your dark user:dungeon that only wiki-users dare to dread. ^_^ --Falconeye 08:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

When I said that we shouldn't just write what "some editor" considers useful, that "some editor" also included me. A table with 16 comm is more useful to me, but there are others who prefer different values. That's the difficult part: figuring out what is useful to most readers and what isn't.

I still think your values contain errors, for example at attribute level 3. The linear interpolation you rely on doesn't work when rounding is involved. Tub 10:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Heros and Usage of Shelter (And Also Union and Displacement)

I am wondering if other players have found these same results. I have a hero Soul Twister whose spirits I micro before entering combat. I also flag that hero away from the rest of the party when we enter a fight. Throughout the years I've noticed that if my Soul Twister is not within aggro range of an enemy while the rest of the party enters combat, they will not recast their spirits after the spirits have died, even if the rest of my party is taking damage.

So for a while now I have been intentionally flagging my ST on the very peripheral of enemy groups (ones that don't have any melee attackers rather) so that the ST will continue to cast spirits without me having to micro each one.

Has anyone else also experienced this behavior? For reference, this behavior is the same regardless of the hero ST being set to Fight, Guard, or Avoid Combat, however when set to the Fight mode the hero will be more likely to move away from their flagged area to engage the enemy, which of course results in the hero using their spirits.

This behavior is frustrating because it results in situations where the party is both taking damage and within spirit range of where the ST has been flagged, yet the ST will not cast spirits because no enemies are within their aggro range. This has led to the deaths of party members that otherwise would have lived if they were under the effects of Shelter, Union, and Displacement. Soldier198 (talk) 22:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Heres a brief demonstration. Notice I had the hero set to Fight mode, and only at the very end were they close enough to the enemy group to move away from the flagged area, at which point they began using their spirits. Otherwise, though, the Hero merely stood there and watched party members die. Soldier198 (talk) 23:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)