User talk:Gem/Request for balancing PvE

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Listen.

Alright listen...Your only making ONE point and that is'nt enough. Even so, since Ursan Nerf PvE cons have been used less.(As far as I've seen).
All you do is ramble about how ITEMS are ruining this economy. Thats Bull Crap. Listen cause I'm only saying this once: People make builds using a Certain elite, certain build, etc.... For example. the new VS farms. (I like em my self) Hello! there farming Voltaic spears. and you still hav'nt changed one dang thing. If you want to balance pve. then do something, don't just talk the talk, walk the walk. Have you even talked to the Programers. You say that ITEMS ruin economy when how the heck do they do that? Oh well, its a small buff. Tell me something new. No, overfarming rare items such as Ectos are what increase price of the Traders. You probaly saw Dye prices or Material prices and got Angry and blamed something. I may be wrong but if all you say is words about Items...Then I will never sign. What do you say to that Gem? I want PvE balance to, but thats not the way to do it. I'm done now. Sharingaun dervish 22:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Use your brain. It's not "a small buff" from consumables - it's a major buff that allows the party to basically do whatever the fuck they want and still win.

Of course it's items that are ruining the economy - the economy is only made up of items and currency, by definition.

Overfarming ectos happens because of things like Shadow Form, Ursan, consumables, etc. What did you expect? Even so, ectos aren't the point - it's things like voltaic spears, tormented gems, storm bows (remember when they went for 80k+?), elemental swords, and a huge number of other items that were farmed so much in so short a period of time because the developers haven't a clue how to watch what's going on in the game, much less adjust for problems.

Why should he have to talk to the programmers to understand that PvE is broken as hell?

Gem's far too smart to simply get angry at the game because the prices of something he wanted were too high. In fact, if you had properly read the document, you would have found that he was complaining that prices were too low.

He's not updated this page in a while because he doesn't play guild wars - because, guess what, the developers ruined the game. He'll probably not get a chance to read your comment, which is why I responded for him.

-- Armond Warblade 02:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Armond speaks truth. Racthoh 07:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You sir ned to learn to read. I don't care bulls shit for the economy. I don't care about what items are worth and I never mention anything about economy or item prices in the whole article. What I care about is how freaking easy the game is.

Besides, there is already enough rant about overpowered farming skills and whatnot. The reason for this article is to bring it to awareness that these items are also bad, since there isn't enough ranting about their overpowerdness. Certain overpowered skills/builds only make a certain area or farm too easy, and that doesn't bother me too much. It's much worse when these items make every area of the game too easy. -- (gem / talk) 02:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Boo F'in hoo. Have you ever played an RPG game before? They get easier as you progress, and get more money, to buy better stuff, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, the list goes on. In fact, GW is the only RPG i've played where the most expensive armor has the same function as the cheapest. If you want balance, go to PvP.--Ohnoes 03:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

you are lame, gtfo, the point is, not every noob should be able to win HM and get to GWAMM pushing random buttons using full conset and dp removal so he can be as powerful as HM monsters and he can bring random build and no brains at all while mashing the keyboard cluelessly, and getting more power for money.... wut? that makes no sense, you farm for money, then you accomplish things with that you could never do normally... that is rly rly bad, and you do not progress after lvl20 do you? yeah the game is designed around players being lvl20 and having 8 skill slots, now you can have every effect on you that these skills would give for money w/o bringing those skills themselves and you can dish out lots of damage using your overpowered pve only skills... the point of hard mode would not be being easy... - Wuhy 04:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I don't generally use con sets. I'm a jew with money and I very rarely spend it on anything other than armor and weapons. But, even on the few occasions I did use con sets, I didn't mash buttons. Because it actually wasn't that easy. When I was in HM, I actually paid attention, because it was, well, Hard Mode. I mean, I'll go try your way, I'll throw on a con set, close my eyes and get random skills. Then I'll go out of town and just mash buttons, but I'm skeptical. Usually the con sets only compliment you. Yeah, they make the game easier, but, in hard mode, certain areas are still... well... HARD. Even with a conset. I mean, again, I could use your way, but I think I'll probably run out of consets and dp removal before vanquishing the area. I'll even watch T.V. while I do it. But, again, I'm skeptical. Rain and Dark 20:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Summoning Sickness

It looks like they could implement a similar debuff allowing only one major party consumable per 30 minutes. -- Gordon Ecker 22:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Awesome idea! Someone drive this through to Linsey. It keeps the items valid but not overpowered. I totally fell in love with this idea. <3 -- (gem / talk) 02:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Waiting...

Ok, so I've basically rewritten the page to be more up to date (the original was written almost 12 months a go for gods sake). We are receiving some sort of a balance update next week (woohoo, that was fast, just 12 months), but if that's not enough then I'll be posting this on Linseys talk page to get some more attention. Let's keep our thumbs up! -- (gem / talk) 03:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Next week = tomorrow? Unless they pushed it back, which wouldn't surprise me a whole bunch. -Auron 04:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I might just remember incorrectly, don't quote me on this one. Sounds good if it's that soon. :) -- (gem / talk) 11:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What is "Hard"?

sup,

I'm a GvGer that only recently stopped doing PvP (because no actual care is put into it besides the occasional random buffs), currently trying to max titles out of boredom. I accidentally came across this page and couldn't help but think you're missing the point with this item stuff. Let's look at a few facts:

• Normal mode presents a moderate challenge to average players, although (as shown by the nerfs such as THK) more and more geared away from cooperative play.
• Hard mode in itself is nothing but big numbers and "unfairness".
• Taking on certain hard mode areas with a balanced build yields failure (or extreme annoyance at the very least) no matter what; a "build wars" approach is more favorable.
• Build designed for hard mode "challenges" always favor exploiting mechanics such as AI dumbness, enchantment stacking (terratanks), or environment oversights (Duncan spirit swapping): you hardly ever take those challenges head on.
• According to acquitances, most if not all dungeons are soloable with flagging and a proper tank build, whereas vanquishing can be easily done with a sabway.

How are items related to all this? An even better question: what would you consider as appropriately "Hard"? Because "hard" PvE is not hard: it's simply not based on skill, because skill doesn't have the chance to come into play due to unfairness (think trying to interrupt fast casted skills). My concept of "hard" is more similar to what the very eldest THK was like: cooperation as a necessity to achieve success.

I believe you're missing the point, and that this is not what should be looked at. If we were to pinpoint a more specific culprit than generic bad design/balance (in terms of both players and monsters), I'd look at PvE skills. --Akaraxle 21:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

PVE skills are just stupidly overpowered in general. You should be able to talk to anyone and get a consensus on that. Items are related because the consumables make you equivalent to HM creatures. They are even post nerf greatly overpowered. They let you do immensely stupid things without serious penalties. If by some freak accident you really fuck up with consets on, someone may die, but its Hard Mode. All that extra xp means in about 30 kills or so your back to no death penalty (depending on the area). If for some reason everyone is so terrible that they wipe again and again, there are powerstones of courage. You can do practically anything if you have enough powerstones. And the latest summons are just icing on the cake for that.

Your comments about how pve is just buildwars has always been the case. And tbh, a relatively balanced team (minus the spike infusing) can actually do pretty well. It's just not as efficient. There really isn't a good way to fix it, however the AI could do with some fixing. Kelvin Greyheart 21:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

A properly designed "exploiting über build" will always have it easy, that's no surprise. But for almost everything in the game, in hard mode, you will also be able to play with a balanced ("non maxed team" would be more proper) team if you are good at it. What the items do is make it easy for everyone to use almost any crappy builds with no team synergyes and no skill to complete anything. Even if you fail at surviving, it's enough if you can kill atleast one enemy before wiping, then res and wipe all dp and repeat. With a nice stack of candy and other items this no brainer head-to-the-wall -tactic allows anyone to do anything.

That's why I started this campaign and that's why I still haven't picked GW up actively again. -- (gem / talk) 22:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Your ideas are pretty good, but that will simply make more players feel frustrated because of superior monsters with inferior AI. Nerfing consumables is a step in the right direction, but in the end, the only way to make PvE "hard" yet also "fun" at the same time, is to nerf monsters and buff AI. Right now, you could bring no skills into battle yet still win due to exploiting AI, but if you come across certain monsters, there are certain skills that cause you to have to exploit AI (i.e. that dinosaur steal 200hp+deep wound+bleeding=you start the battle with only 5/6 players alive) or face a party wipe unless you are in a team of extremely skilled and co-ordinated players. Hard-Mode should be hard, but it should not be elitist hard, where you need Vent to not get wiped every 30 or so minutes. Right now, simply nerfing consumables makes HM harder, but not any more fun, especially not for semi-casual players. You need to make PvE require balanced builds and skill, but not by simply giving monsters with shitty dps +1000HP so that they pose a larger challenge by "pressuring" your monk. The only real way to make PvE challenging yet rewarding is to give monsters decent intelligence. They should not all be Ursans, spamming skills 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, auto attack, spam skills 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 with no regard for targetting except "all gangbash the person with the lowest hp until we break aggro and target the newest player with the lowest hp". However, this is quite impossible (or at least, pretty hard), so I say simply nerf consummables so that you do not get invulnerability+unlimited deaths, but make them so they require skill, such as for 10 minutes your DP is reduced by 15% and you cannot use this item again for 25 minutes, so players need to be wary and not simply spam consummables, because then they will be caught by a "spike", and instead of being aided by the consumable, their monk has been caught off guard by it expiring.Crimmastermind 07:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Form your own parties...

There are enough people who have signed this to easily form parties to do elite areas without consumables. If others want to use consumables why hurt them by getting rid of them? That's like saying I want the Elementalist class removed because it does better DPS than my Ritualist so more people will want my rit. 122.105.157.213 13:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Because people who play with consumables hurt the game. Erasculio 13:23, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to mention consumables are also good because they remove money from a game where wealth is building up more over time, with no repeated gold sink like armour repairs or other similair systems like the ones in WoW, this itself is problem with people being able to afford any item in the game fairly easily pushing the prices of rare items like the polar bear up to ridiculous prices. I play the game, the only time a consumable hurt me was when I was casting faster through backfire. Consumables can't hurt you if you don't use them. 122.105.157.213 13:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

"Don't use it if you don't like it" is terrible logic. It affects the balance of PvE and, yes, the in-game economy. I don't like the fact that shadow form exists, but me not using it doesn't prevent voltaic spear prices from plummeting through the ground. This is a multiplayer game, in case you missed it. You can't just pretend something doesn't exist. -Auron 13:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

122.105, as Auron and others have said, this is a multiplayer game and what others do affects the rest of the player base. And consumables do not qualify as a gold sink, using them allows players to make gold faster, negating the gold spendature. -- (gem / talk) 19:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Farming builds bring in the real money, and no one ever uses consumables for farming, and if they are, they're not making a huge amount of profit. And "Because people who play with consumables hurt the game" is just bullshit, no argument to back up that statement was even given by the poster, which makes me think the majority of the people complaining about consumables are people who can't afford consumables. The economy is going just fine, and the price of the majority of materials, runes, and dyes have been completely stable since a few weeks after HM was introduced.--Ohnoes 03:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Wait.... you attack claiming an arbitrary statement then follow it up with one? You claim that the claims that consumables hurt the game are arbitrary because of lack of proof, yet there is ample proof. You then follow up with, the statement " which makes me think the majority of the people complaining about consumables are people who can't afford consumables". Evidence has been provided in dozens of places, which would invalidate that statement in and of itself. On top of that. Note that many of the people complaining are quite well off. I have well over 500k in the bank, and consider that to be rather low. Yet I despise consumables. I know I am not alone in having money, and hating them.

Your first statement is also nearly completely invalid. If consumables hurt your profits, you don't use them. Yet if they can increase the rate at which you acquire money past their expenses, they still net you money. For example, you can speed vanquish with consumables. find an area with a lot of foes, and clear it in a portion of the previous time. Now the gain for one person to do this are minimal since you are paying for cons each time, but in groups, the cost is shared, and the amount of loot increases at the cost of some gold. You in all likelyhood get more gold still even with the expenses, and will get more items, and mats. Extra money no matter how you look at it, and if you are vanqishing a kurz or luxon area you are getting extra faction too. This isn't even optimal conditions for this.

Cons also allow speed clears of FoW and UW, which would still be doable without them, but not nearly on the scale at which they currently are. How can you say they do not effect the economy? I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind it, because (and I find it ironic I can use your own argument here) you have not provided any reasoning that they do not, other than fallacious claims that no evidence exists that they do. Kelvin Greyheart 09:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I never said they don't affect the economy, but i will say they help it. They create a flow of cash, and can help people get more cash, so wtf is the problem? You're pissed off because you don't like someone else being able to get money, too? Without consumables GW PvE becomes even MORE boring, the whole "god mode" portion of RPGs is pretty vital to their success. Once you beat the game, and you beat all the stuff, what else is there to do? Run around and repeat? No, i'd really enjoy running around at twice the speed, doing 400dmg/hit, and watching everything flop to the ground, and no, i'm not being sarcastic. So really, what is the problem YOU have with consumables? It's not making anything more expensive, and it's allowing people to accomplish more. If you want a challenge, fight naked, or something, instead of bitching to Anet about their attempts to keep people playing.--Ohnoes 00:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not pissed off because someone else can get money too. Again you have made an arbitrary attack. Please look up how inflation works. Adding more money to an economy is never a good thing. The economics are not the only thing as well. Cons allow truly terrible players to do things. Two complete idiots with cons running copypasta Sabway, or whatever, can do every mission in Hard Mode, and vanquish every area with minimal difficulty, even doing almost nothing themselves. They remove what skill things required.

God Mode is not a bad thing by definition. It can be fun to run around with God Mode in any game, but unless something mitigates the rewards for using it, God Mode does harm. The problem here is that God Mode doesn't penalize you. It actively rewards you. You get more stuff, faster, and more easily. There are no drawbacks. That is the problem with cons. They hurt the economic structure of the game, and damage other things like certain difficult (well...more grindy than difficult) to acquire titles. Kelvin Greyheart 06:47, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is something that ought to be forced on players. When I use consumables during a vanquish or some similar HM run when I'm trying to get points for a title or get an item I need, how am I hurting the economy of GW? What's the point of only being able to use your good consumables in NM? There's absolutely no point as it just becomes overkill in an area you could defeat easily enough with low level armor and half of your max health. Consumables were made, I'm sure, for a number of reasons not exclusive to "making things easier". It's not like you select HM and they're forcing birthday cupcakes and candy canes into your character's mouth. As far as I know, consumables can remove some DP, buff you a bit, etc--I don't see how that affects Gold/Green drops or the like? Yes, it lets you survive longer in order to acquire said drops, but you eventually need to rezone in order to re-spawn more things for you to kill, thus requiring you to use more consumables...now, most of my consumables come from holiday events, granted, but wouldn't most people have to buy their consumables from a merchant or another player in order to be able to consistently travel into an HM area and buff themselves with consumables? It's not like they're creating/farming consumables themselves and then using them...They're contributing by participating in holiday events, opening Z-chests, and buying them from merchants and other players. User:Zahrim

i'm new

how do i sign on that list?Akbaroth 19:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit the page and insert # ~~~~ on a new row. The # takes care of the numbering and the tildes take care of your signature. -- (gem / talk) 22:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Pointless...

This petition's been hanging here for so much time, ANet don't do anything about it. Why?... Ninjas In The Sky 13:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Because this petition is a totally unnecessary and destructive idea from ONE, count it ONE person that uses the wiki. And so what if 150 or so people signed the petition because ONE person want's it and got followers. This petition will only make those 150 people happy, but completely upset and aggravate the 4-5+ Million that play guild wars everyday and enjoy it exactly the way arenanet decides to make it for us. Balancing or changing Guildwars isn't YOUR decision, it's arenanet's. Signed, Chrisworld 00:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

who cares about retards? the same thing happened when they nerfed ursan, lots of noobs QQ'd, i like that, more of that pls - Wuhy 03:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

thats right anet doesnt give a shit about people who want pve to be balance because the whole idea is retarted. some people dont have all of the campaigns, therefore they dont have all the skills so they use cons. if you dont like cons then dont use them people seem to QQ more about this then the people who were against the ursan nerf.

Oh, so everyone who doesn't sign here is automatically against it? From all the people who visited this page only a couple have voiced their voice against, while dozens have been for this request. Not that it matters, the game PvE is ruined and will not be fixed anymore as they are working on GW2. -- (gem / talk) 13:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see how PvE is ruined, at all. It's still, well, FUN to play. No, I'm not generally happy with the updates ANet does, but I deal with it. I'm for adding some balance into using consets, like only one type of item can be used once per area, ie, only one armor, grail, etc. Don't get me wrong, they are heavily affecting the economy, I'm not denying that, and for that reason, I'm saying, change areas that are heavily farmed. Make the consets single use per area, but also buff the areas that are heavily farmed to make it impossible to farm. I truly don't know how this would be done, but it could work. Rain and Dark 17:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

If u really don't like Cons, then form a PvE Guild/Alliance that doesnt use them. Stop trying to take ur ideas and force them down everyone elses throats. No matter what Anet does, someone is gonna be upset. And from where I am standing, I think it should be the minority, which is those that signed the petition. Elvynd Doomscythe 14:02, 26 January 2010.

Ress Shrine Buffs

Don't forget you can add buffs from the ress shrines as well for a small fee to beef yourself up even more --In ferro veritas 12:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Attributes

Its +3 to attributes.... Hidan Santai 06:04, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think Gem meant that portion without the use of party wide cons. So that would be not counting Grail of Might --71.193.48.146 14:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Solution: Using another consumable replaces the previous effect

Whether party wide or single person, if you use a consumable, it will replace the previous effect. Lorazcyk 05:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Solution: Create "Totally Hardcore Mode"

This would work in the same way as hard mode, but summoning stones, PvE skills, nor consumables would work. If you try, you get that error message when you try using those items in PvP.

Increase Zaishen quest rewards for this Totally Harcode Mode. 25 to 75 extra coins depending on the difficulty of the quest.

Lorazcyk 05:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)