User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Assassin/Archive 3

Dagger Mastery

Disrupting Stab

change to "spell or chant"? --Life Infusion «T» 17:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Still needs quicker activation to actually be usable imo. --97.100.157.41 00:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Horns of the Ox

As seen in the January Tournament, Trampling Ox has made this obsolete, since with Black Mantis Thrust you have a semi-reliable cripple. Maybe buff this to +5...17...20 damage like Trampling Ox (Horns of the Ox is +1...9...11 right now). I know that not being adjacent to allies is an easy to meet condition, but there's no reason why something with 12 recharge as opposed to Trampling Ox's 8 recharge should have half the damage. As for other Duals, all of them have higher damage (even twisting fangs has +10...18...20)--Life Infusion «T» 02:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

maybe increase the not adjacent to "not near" allies like "You are all alone!". --Life Infusion «T» 04:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

this got raped so bad in the nerf 24.141.45.72 00:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. HotO has been mercilessly assassinated. Bull's strike is a pretty easy condition to meet (via rush, crip, or a combo of both); it even has less recharge time and a greater bonus than HotO. Not to mention you have to execute an offhand attack successfully (and lead attack.. depending on build) to get to HotO; Trampling far outweighs this. A slight boost in damage (equal to, or just ever so slightly more than the total of bull's strike) would be in good order. --Ulterion 14:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Deadly Arts

Dancing Daggers Crippling Dagger Disrupting Dagger

Lets take Deadly paradox out of the equation, these skill's aren't that great without it. Dancing Daggers is an average skill but in the idea of promoting lead attacks lets change it a bit. Actually lets change them all a bit.

My suggestion is to take them from being Spells into being Skills. This allows them all to be cast While moving (like an assassin would throw a dagger while moving). This is better in the assassin role play department and over all for these skills. With them being skills however, we should change them a bit, my suggestion is to increase the recharge for them. Dancing Daggers becomes 8 recharge, crippling dagger 10 and Disrupting 12. Also Disrupting Dagger should either have a disable function for about 1...12 seconds or changed from half range to full spell range (like impale). Disrupting Dagger doesn't do real damage, and on a sin using Deadly arts purely as utility, this open's it up for him to get into attack range without being attacked by a caster first. If Disrupting Dagger is turned to a skill at long range, as soon as the sin gets in the aggro bubble he can see that the caster he's attacking is already sending a spell his way, he can interrupt this spell and save himself damage or a hex. This Promotes a new flavor in the sin's play.

Crippling Dagger's damage should be changed from earth to Piercing.

Change to skills instead of spells (since when is throwing a dagger a spell? :s), change damage from Earth to Piercing (automatically makes these spells useles against earth elementalists as it is), decrease activation time as all three are pretty easy to interrupt at present and Deadly Paradox is pointless to use now because of nerf. Spamming Dancing Daggers is ok, it was the rest of the combo that was overpowered due to its quick recharge. Unreal Havoc 16:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

A cripple with no cast time? No thanks

An interrupt with no cast time? No thanks.

A 90 damage guaranteed lead attack with no cast time? No thanks.

Overall, bad ideas. Shard 03:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

+1 24.141.45.72 00:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Dancing Daggers and Disrupting Dagger seem fine to me the way they are; but they should all be skills just to make logical sense. And What about YAA? That's a conditional cripple with no cast time. Crippling Dagger does need a buff, so it should at least be tried. 71.166.46.22 09:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Shroud of Silence

Suggestion:add shouts/chants/echos into the skills disabled.--Life Infusion «T» 21:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

the skill is fine as it is now , but your idea is good , and it fits the concept of Shroud of Silence--189.12.67.75 01:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Make a

touch skill, for 1..5..6 seconds target foe cannot cast spells, but you have a 10%..6%..5% chance to miss attacks on target foe, and you cannot cast spells for 6..5..4 seconds 10e 20r 1/4 cast Gives a window, thats USABLE DURATION!!!!!!!, but still has a blanced effect, no spells=no heals, no shadow steps (not counting shadow walk, and no hexes, and that small chance that your spike will fail, its useless, unless you planning a skill update that give sins the new skill called Extend Hex(increase duration by 200%) or revert to pre march 6 Annoying And Deadly 03:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

See User:Isaiah Cartwright/Assassin/Shroud of Silence and the notice at the top of the page. -- Gordon Ecker 23:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Arts

Shadow of Haste

Before the nerf, one of the most useful skills to grace a sins bar. After the nerf, meh. I suggest a drop to 30 recharge, a drop in duration by 10 seconds, and an extra description stating, for each point in critical strikes, this skill lasts one second longer. There, no longer able to be abused by secondaries.--Atlas Oranos 06:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this used to be a great skill, one of my favorites. But the nerf really destroyed the point of it, I'd love this skill to be useful again --J0ttem 09:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

also signed. tactical skills like this should be unnerfed and put into play —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 22:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also signed. --Tankity Tank 22:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

No, this skill needs to remain as is because its worse than Recall, worse than AoD, and worse than Shadow Meld, when it comes to having free reign about the map, and ability to escape situations you shouldn't be in in the first place. --(Problem. 01:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

Aye, leave it dead. Some things are made utterly useless for good reason.. — Skuld 10:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't they just revert it to the original, original version (except being called "Shadow Step")? I don't remember that being abused. Hell, they had to make it ridiculously overpowered to get people to use it. Here's the original stats:

10/30

For 5...17 seconds you move 25% faster than normal. When Shadow of Haste ends, you return to the location where you activated this skill.

--68.106.223.233 10:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Yeah, just revert it back to what it was before. But it will still not be used :P--72.84.76.135 05:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Imo, just move it to critical strikes, and lower recharge. Sure, it would be a nerf to a few pve farming builds, but who really cares about pve? — Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Change the skill back to where it use to be when it was released but give it a 25 recharge.68.20.17.16 15:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Change the name to Shadow Step and then change it to, 5e 1/4c 10r or less. Shadow step to target foe. A shadow step which allows you to travel but not escape. People who liked the SP chain can use it in the same way, only it doesn't snare or act as a hex. It will be the most spammable shadow step in the game, to make up for the fact it does nothing else, and doesn't fulfil requirements for all the annoying "skip lead" builds out there, so it opens up new diversity. Did I mention it doesn't act as an escape card? Anon

Well, compare that to Death's Charge. Something could be interesting, however, is a half-range step. — Skuld 16:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This was not worse than recall. Right now it's absolutely useless. That's a bad thing for balance. It needs to be usable, and the only way to achieve that is to let the duration go over the recharge. Reducing both duration and recharge so you have to spam it in order to to keep it up would make it less ganker-friendly, but still usable for many other build archetypes. Shard 03:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You guys don't know what you are talking about. This skill was too good. --Readem 04:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Eight A/Any and Any/A running around in an all out gank fest. . . I don't miss that. Leave it dead. Rururrur 15:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Form

10/1/60

• Changes: 5/.25/12 "For 10 seconds your maximum health is lowered to 100 and you suffer -5 degeneration for 10 seconds and all your enchantments are removed. While you are enchanted with shadow form you can not be the target of spells or attacks and you can not use spells or attack skills. If you attack someone while enchanted with shadow form, shadow form ends and you gain 20 health for each point in critical strikes"
• Reasoning: A skill the makes you temporarily invincible will probably never be good enough to be viable. But, with this change to shadow form to assassin gains a skill that will essentially let them go into "Stealth Mode" (Increasing the complexity of the class by adding "stealth" to the assassin). The degeneration is to keep people from being permanently (By recasting shadow form) invincible . The health gain is to keep the assassin from instantly dying after shadow form ends and the critical strikes requirement stops other classes from using it.
• Questions: Is the health gain to high?

What the hell?Stealth of an assassin? Thats not a good boost.

If you can't attack, have only 100 hp, and there are still skills that can kill you.... can't enchant yourself or heal yourself. Thats more of a nerf to me, if the maximum hp is lowered then gaining 20 health doesnt matter/ Heres a better clause. Increase shadowform's duration by about 3/5 seconds. Shadow Form ends if you use a stance. As its not an actual form going into a stance should end it, you can precast a stance and then shadowform...just you can't cast another 1 (deadly paradox the arcane echo'd shadowform) And it doesn't ruin the Tombs Shadow of Haste solo at all.--Ensoriki 21:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ya, I know stealth on an assassin that is absurd! That isn't the whole point of the class at all! (/sarcasm) I don't think you understand the idea I'm trying to purpose here. Your suppose to take it off before you die and your health goes back to normal when it ends and it's 20 points of health for each point in critical strikes. Most skills won't be able to touch you with this shadow form and the ones that can suck. (Bane signet and Signet of judgement) Jigoku 02:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's just a bad suggestion. Besides, nothing is wrong with this skill. It's balanced. =\ RitualDoll 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It sucks. Jigoku 23:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Q.Q that everything doesn't work everywhere. RitualDoll 03:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL do you realize that -5 degen for 10 seconds is 100 health? xD A skill that kills you and is elite! GREAT idea!--Lou-Saydus 17:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Your supposed to remove it before you die......I think this change better illustrates my point>>>

5/.25/10 "All your enchantments are removed. For 0..5 seconds you are enchanted with Shadow Form. If Shadow Form lasts it's full duration you die. While enchanted with Shadow Form spells against you fail and attacks against you miss. Shadow form ends prematurely if you use a skill." Jigoku 01:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC) I don't see how this is underpowered - yes, it sucks for PvP, but it is by far the best gold and green farming skill in the game. Hero Faction Farming and E/A or A/E Solo Green farming is lucrative. --Falseprophet 18:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Unseen Fury

ARE YOU READY TO UNLEASH THE FUCKING FURY? I always wish I could say that with this skill. But it's already a bit difficult for a melee assassin to blind their opponent because their skill bars are tight enough as is, let alone the fact that the blind will probably be dismissed before long. The high recharge is a pain should something happen to the stance, plus using this disallows them to use a much more appealing IAS stance. Perhaps give a small damage boost scaling with deadly arts? (1...8) I don't really know, it's late and I'm not really thinking straight. Still I stand by the "this needs a buff" idea. --97.100.141.74 05:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

This skill would be very good if it didn't take so long to recharge. It would see a good amount of use by assassins and secondary assassins if it was reduced to something like 5e 10r For (3...12) seconds.... This is a good skill, with a good effect, with a condition that is reasonable to meet, but not too easy. It just needs to be active. RitualDoll 05:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

15e 20recharge, For 1...5...6 seconds you attack 33% faster. Shadow step to target foe(radar range) and that foe is blinded. When this stance ends you return to your original location. --Lou-Saydus 17:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Sin's will never have their own PvP IAS, that's by design. --Ckal Ktak 20:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Shroud

The skill icon looks like the guy is blinded... a short blind like Smoke Powder Defense would be nice. --Life Infusion «T» 22:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

wtf? Why? --Readem 04:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a shroud of shadows being pulled across his eyes. Blind is unnecessary. -- Armond Warblade 01:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh disregard this suggestion then. --Life Infusion «T» 02:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Way of the Fox

most of the assassin enchantments that trigger like this one have been changed to "attack skill" instead of "attack". Considering this has 45 recharge, I don't see why this couldn't have that change made as well. --Life Infusion «T» 22:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Refuge

This skill's duration was changed back to 4 seconds while having the healing effect was increased to 88 at 12 shadow arts in a hidden update. Change this back to 6 seconds and 68 at 12 shadow arts, it was fine as it is and it should be changed back or at least give us a reason why it was changed. Prokiller88 22:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

this skill went through alot of changes when it first came out didnt it? at one point it gave you like 6 health regen and you took half dmg/ or 50% block chance. another point it cause u to randomy shadow step. i realy dont see why anet put so much focus into this skill especialy since in high end pvp which apears to be all they care about, offensve classes dont bring selfheals. that being said a self heal for a fighter class that at rank 12 gives less than basse heal of 100 health is weak, yes the you get regen which can be countered but if its ganna have a base heal of less than 100 you might as well have kept the 6 second regen duration70.6.14.153 21:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Viper's Defense

Maybe Viper's Defense: "Stance. All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds. For 8 seconds, the next time you are struck, you take half damage and all adjacent foes are struck for 5...41...50 piercing damage." instead of "Spell. All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds, you Shadow Step to a nearby random location." Right now it is so pointless since poison is common on Rangers. --Life Infusion «T» 22:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Smoke Powder Defense

The recharge seems to be the problem with this skill. Perhaps drop the recharge to 15 and drop the blind duration slightly?--4.248.57.204 23:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

skills like this get to much abuse from other proffessions. sin realy dont have room to put in defencive skills but monk,ele,necro etc abuse the hell out of skills like this and sheild bash, bleh and to think of it here that nobrainer counter to plam strike sins since this and sheild bash70.6.14.153 21:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Unlinked

Wastrel's Collapse

→ old discussion moved to User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Assassin/Archive 1#Wastrel's Collapse

Still sucks.--Atlas Oranos 08:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It didn't even get changed, so I don't know why it was archived. --68.106.223.233 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably because other changes were made and they just decided it wasn't unreasonable, I could see this having some uses in very unique builds, but it could definetly use a reduced trigger, that way it isn't so easy to spot. Tell me, is it canceled if the foe attempts to use a skill, or is successful?--BahamutKaiser 04:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Its if he is successful.--Atlas Oranos 16:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of something like a 12 or 15 second recharge that kds the target IF he uses a skill. Not sure if that would be op or not, could be abusable on two or more sins.--Atlas Oranos 16:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What about increasing the recharge and adding a secondary effect? Something like "After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. If target foe uses a Skill, that Skill fails and this Hex ends prematurely."? -- Gordon Ecker 00:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a reason this skill was originally named Shameful Waste, and it's not because the skill is good. --Tankity Tank 00:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe 5/0.25/10 "Elite Hex Spell. After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. This Hex ends prematurely if that foe uses a Skill, and that skill is disabled for (Recharge time)+10s. That way it could be used to quickly put an enemy into dilenma... Do nothing and let it kd you after 5 sec, or use a skill to avoid kd, but disable that skill for (Recharge time)+10s. HTS 84.40.188.84 12:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that actually sounds good, they could change it to wastrel's altimatum and have it disable the skill used for a short period of time, even if it is 10 seconds, it will make it very worthwile since you can keep casting it. But it is potentially overpowered since it can keep a foe spamming skills to avoid knockdown and disable their spamable skills since itdisables.--BahamutKaiser 14:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem with this skill is really just the class it's under... Assassin? It's interesting that the only related skills are all from the mesmer line and that it's even named based off previous mesmer skills. Well, it's that and that it sucks. Improvement would definitely be nice. It would be fun if it was longer recharge, but something like: "Target foe is knocked down and hexed with Wastrel's collapse. After 5 seconds they're knocked down. This hex ends prematurely if they use a skill (or maybe make it more restrictive, like spell, that might be getting overpowered I guess...just trying to make it viable).

I'd like to repost some pretty much all of the comment I made when I first added this skill to the underpowered list in July:

It's inferior to basically any other knockdown skill, including non-elites. The only possible use it has is with Diversion, but there are better skills that Diversion works with. This skill is very un-assassin and very useless. It should not stay in its current form. It should've been a mesmer skill if it was meant to be used with Diversion. I would like to see this skill completely reworked into a dagger attack. Preferably an off-hand that follows a lead to encourage the use of lead attacks. My vision is a 5e/.5c/12r attack that knocks down foes and deals extra damage if they weren't using a skill. If they were using a skill, all it would be is a normal dagger attack with fast activation. It's got an interrupt activation time but the last thing you'd want to do is use it when someone's casting. This would be interesting to see as an attack. It would also still work with the "wastrel" theme. I would also make the conditional damage pretty high and linked to Critical Strikes (60 at 15 CS).

Here's a more clear description of what I'd like to see:

Wastrel's Collapse 5/.5/12 (I think it could actually be shorter recharge, now) Critical Strikes Elite Off-Hand Attack. Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits and target foe is not using a skill, that foe is knocked down and takes +10...50...60 damage. --Heelz 07:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Skill: Wastrel's Collapse 5/.25/8

• Changes: "After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. Every second this skill is active an ally of target foe ,nearby, is knocked down. If this skill is removed prematurely target foe is not knocked down "
• Reasoning: The problem with this skill is that it would probably be better in the mesmer lines then the assassin ones. I'm tired imagineer the new usefulness of the skill. Jigoku 09:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Make it this imo: 10/.25/20 Enchantment Spell, shadow step to target foe. The next time you successfully hit with a Dual Attack, your target is knocked down and Wastrel's Collapse ends. If you do not attack or use any skills for 3 seconds, Wastrels Collapse end prematurely and you are knocked down for 3 seconds. --76.2.19.228 07:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Why not just take Mark of Instability then dude? How about Wastrels Collapse,For 5 seconds. Target foe moves 10% faster if they use a skill they are knocked down.

Shadow step and enchantment spell. — Teh Uber Pwnzer 03:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

How about: For 5 seconds, target foe is hexed with Wastrel's Collapse and suffers 1...3 degeneration. When Wastrel's Collapse ends, target foe is knocked down and suffers from cracked armor. This hex prematurely if that foe uses a skill.--Victoryisyours 18:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ends prematurely = nothing happens still. If somebody doesn't use a skill for 5 seconds when they're hexed with this or one of the Wastrel's skills they must suck. Thats the real problem with it. The whole idea of this skill completely sucks, hence why my suggestion completely reworked it. Adding 1...3 degen and cracked armor still wouldn't be worth it. — Teh Uber Pwnzer 06:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Duration 5 when this skill ends target is KDed, this skill ends prematurely if target uses a skill... basically it KDs no matter what 21:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

How about if it ends prematurely on using an elite skill, not just any skill? Would make things interesting. -- Hong 01:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

1.) Wastrel's Collapse:Enchantment Spell. (unlinked) The next time you shadowstep to target foe, that foe is knocked down 2 seconds later and suffers from bleeding.

2.)Wastrel's Collapse:Hex Spell (deadly arts). After 2...5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. If that foe uses a skill while this hex is upon them, they suffer from poison for 10...15 seconds instead.

3.)Wastrel's Collapse:Hex Spell (unlinked) For 10 seconds, nothing happens. When this skill ends, target foe is knocked down and takes 20...45 damage for each skill activated while this hex was upon them.

Like any of them? Victoryisyours 12:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You screwed this skill up when you gave it a serious name it was much better as Shameful Waste. 130.13.72.175 17:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Draken

Link it to Deadly Arts...If ended prematurely, the enemy loses X...X amount of energy....If they wait it out, they physically collapse, if they end it, they mentally collapse. --Deathwing 06:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

ooh or make it a 5 second kd, make it worth a blackout, Wastresl, blackout, kd them spike = dead target Annoying And Deadly 03:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

imo make it an elite version of shield bash but for casters, for 5 seconds target foe is hexed with wastrels collapse, if they use a spell they are KD'ed and that skill is disabled for 5...10 seconds link it to deadly arts. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.6.122.112 (talk).

Other

also underpowered

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin) you may wanna look into that its pretty underpowered.--DVDA 06:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Epic win, and truth --Ensoriki 04:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Gotta agree. Assassins get B--ched about all the time as being "overpowered", however they're ridiculously easy to stop (any sort of block) and then have low armor for being in melee. The only use they have is jumping in and dealing burst damage to a single target, however even that's being taken away as well as the assassin versatility and range of builds that are really capable of being played. The nerfs to the two Ox skills and the Black Lotus (although I guess people were tired of sp?) really hurts the range of assassin play. This sort of thing, of course, is just going to result in the same thing as sp before. There's going to be very few viable builds and then everyone is going to play only the best one of them, resulting in a new 'sp' type build that everyone is, once again, going to get pissed about and make page after page moaning about them. 76.102.172.202 06:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

nuh uh they could nerf everything they have then there will be no combo to bitch about. BLS is understandable to some extent but the ox skills hindered a lot of legit builds outside of sp--DVDA 06:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why was SP hit so hard? It's pretty easy to avoid or survive (lol less than 500 damage), and if it was nerfed due to its abuse in HB, I can't imagine it would be very hard to alter Hero AI so blocking stances/hex removal would shoot up to the top of their to-do list in the event they're hexed and there's an Assassin inside Adjacent range. Expose is pretty much dead, so players would have to choose between Tiger Stance and Rigor Mortis, and if they choose RM their chain is going to pop so slowly SP will expire before they've even finished. And if someone's willing to burn seven slots (BLS nerf) and fifty energy inside seven seconds to deal <500 damage to a target once every twenty seconds, let them. If they have RM your hex removal won't have a problem popping since it's going to be 1.33 seconds until the KD, which might not even exist anymore due to Horns nerf, and if they don't, blocking stances and Blind work wonders. Actually, Blind works both ways. Imagine that.

And I always hear that argument, if you have to alter your bar to deal with one build it's overpowered. And then I hear that other argument, GW is a big game of rock-paper-scissors because something always beats something, and I get confused. SP is basically representative of the entire Assassin class in HB, and there's two counters for it. Hex Removal, which is also useful against necros and mesmers, and blocking/Blind, which is also useful against warriors, paragons, and rangers.

I'm off-topic. Unnerf Horns pls, I want to use decent Assassin builds besides assacasters and Grenth's Grasp because I hate them both. --71.208.133.30 09:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Basically, you are fueling biased opinions against assasin players. Oh noes, block will stop me! Guess what, that problem refers to all attackers: Watch and learn how other classes handle that problem. Oh noes, I can't kill a 500+ hp target on my own any more. Well, nobody can, at least nobody should! So basically the assasin has to do what all other melee spikers have to do, too: Wait for your window of opportunity, where you can jump on an unprotted target with low health, and take it out. Be sure not to engage someone with block stances, at least don't do so if he can afford the energy to use his stance. Don't be predictable in your choice of targets. This is the way the game is (should be) played. - TeleTeddy 10:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

or just spec your build to be unblockable :) Dargon 16:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing, what I was trying to say is the BLS nerf was just about perfect, 'sins now have to choose between damage, IAS, and snare, pick two. But by nerfing Horns, Izzy's killed 'sin diversity since the only builds that can be run even remotely effectively anymore are the ones everyone hates - the new SP, AoD, MS/DB, assacaster, and GG. Horns was a common factor in a lot of other 'sin builds, but now it does too little damage and has too long of a KD to be effective. Izzy, please either boost the damage by ~10 or reduce the cooldown by about 4sec, right now there isn't any reason to run Horns over Trampling since I can achieve Cripple and acceptable damage with the same number of skills and less energy than it would cost me to do the same with Horns, and I can do it more often and with less risk to boot. Or maybe playing 'sins have spoiled me and you need to nerf Trampling instead, I'm not sure which. --71.208.133.30 19:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I can still kill a 500hp+ target solo. Eviscerate is awesome. :) --71.208.133.30 19:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

But can you do it starting from full spellcasting range in three seconds at the beginning of a battle? --Ckal Ktak 22:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No, but I can do it every nine seconds for as long as I want.

I forgot what we're arguing about. Something about assassins doing five hundred damage. I just want my Horns back. --71.229.204.25 00:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

On another note I just wanted to say I thought this comment was hilarious -

Oh noes, block will stop me! Guess what, that problem refers to all attackers: Watch and learn how other classes handle that problem.

I would like to encourage users to THINK before posting lol. Obviously assassins have the worst issues with block being that if one of their attacks is blocked, their whole combo dies (resulting in almost zero damage) and the fact that, unlike warriors, paragons, and rangers they have to get out after pulling their combos as well, they aren't a steady stream of dps like their 'counterparts' you mentioned. 76.102.172.202 01:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If an Eviscerate warrior gets only one of his attack skills blocked, the spike will fail, too. It's not a problem to assassins, what you describe, but a problem to melee spikes in general. However, there are various possibilities to handle that: Fake spike on a different target, shutdown the monk, jump on overextended targets, don't jump on target's the monk would expect, bring anti-block skills - I'm sure there's even more. :On a first glance, attackers that pressure instead of spike seem less vulnerable to blocking, but I don't think that's true: An attacker mustn't be blocked, especially if the build relies on pressure damage. A blocking enemy results in the necessity to switch your target (or remove your enemies ability to block, but that's a possibility for "spike blocking", too).

Again, this is the way the game is (should be) played, that's what being a frontliner is about. If your target's block your first attack, then you either engaged an already protected enemy, or you were too predictable (maybe the monk saw you running towards your target and knew you would spike this time). Both ways, you failed. - TeleTeddy 10:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If an assassin gets his lead blocked, his entire chain is ruined. The warrior still gets lots of damage if only one attack is blocked. Warriors can also autoattack for damage, assassins have to use skills to get much damage. See here for new sp sin! --76.2.19.228 23:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If an assassin gets his lead blocked, he failed miserably. That was my point. - TeleTeddy 00:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

However you still failed to refute my point...Assassins are still suffer worse under blocks than a warrior does. Warriors also have plenty high dps along with their armor advantage and don't rely on skills all hitting and all being used in the right order (that's a disadvantage in case you didn't know). First of all, Way of the Fox isn't good enough to prevent blocks and hexes can be removed readily and give away the target thats to be spiked, and acting like blocks aren't a common thing is ridiculous. Also, if an Eviscerate warrior (using your example here) misses with a part of his combo (like evis), he just has 1 second before he can use other adren skills (time to swing again) if the target isn't under ridiculous blocks, otherwise, he just changes targets and can spike in a matter of seconds. The warrior, despite being hurt by blocks as any attacking class is, can be used more often and doesn't suffer AS HEAVILY from them as the assassin does. 76.102.172.202 00:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that you listed some disadvantages of the assassin, I will list some of the warrior: A warrior needs to build up adrenalin. This is a crucial point, because blind, blocking, etc, all that prevents the warrior from getting adrenalin. An assassin can spike every x seconds, so the assassin can be blind or blocked all the time, a well timed condition remove prior to the spike will do, all you have to do is to jump on an unprotected target. In other words: The window of opportunity you need is very short. Warriors, however, need to build up adrenalin, so they need a larger window of opportunity. Btw, they can NOT continue their spike if one attack was blocked, because they need all of their spike skills in order to kill, if they fight a good team. Listing advantages of warrios and the downsides of assassins will get you nowwhere, both classes have their own flaws and edges. Maybe assassins suffer more from blocking than warriors do (still have my doubts, though), but on the other side warriors are more vulnerable to conditions: Blind (because they need to be not-blind much longer (to build up adrenalin) than assassins) and Cripple (because assassins can shadow step more easily and have better snares) are two examples. - TeleTeddy 11:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What about altering the skills so that they recharge faster if they don't hit? -- Gordon Ecker 02:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. Adrenaline is an advantage first of all. Against an unprotected target, a warrior can spike (depending on what spike) every 10 seconds or so (allowing for variation). Blind should be removed if you have a halfway decent team anyway, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern, but if its not then there's no point in debating as ANY physical attacker will fail to kill under blind. Warriors CAN continue hitting targets hard even if they have 1 attack blocked, they have standard ias that they can use frequently and when needed and are able to continue their combo after 1 successful hit (to gain back the adrenaline). If you aren't able to hit 1 time, obviously the spike is going to fail whether assassin or not, but the point is that, for example, against a 50% blocking target, assassins might as well not attack while warriors are still able to pressure it (50% block can actually prevent an entire sin combo). Assassins do have shadowsteps, however they aren't limited to just sins as even a warrior can use death's charge, however shadowsteps also only recharge so often, if you use an elite one (quickest recharge) you're still only spiking half as often as a warrior. My point is basically this though, assassins do no damage outside of their combos and those combos are fairly easy to completely shutdown through a single block while warriors are capable of pressuring in and out of combos, are able to spike more often, and are able to continue combos after being blocked (you somehow don't seem to see this point but it IS true). 76.102.172.202 03:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is true, but in my experience, a build relies (mainly) either on pressure OR on spike damage. Given the scenario that no team is dominating, you will need all your damage, no matter if you pressure or if you spike: Getting blocked (even once) won't get your enemies down. I know a warrior can keep up more pressure than an assassin outside of spikes, I just don't think that - playing against a good team - this is of high relevance. And yes, if your enemy brought no anti-melee, a warrior will definitely will kill faster, but that's a very unlikely scenario. A decent enemy will have anti-melee. Warriors and assassins both have their own advantages and weaknesses. Maybe a warrior is more versatile (not sure about that), but there are many builds/situations where I'd prefer an assassin over a warrior. - TeleTeddy 10:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

You're not sure if a class with the highest armor and DPS in the game is more versatile than a glass cannon that requires a totally uninterrupted five seconds and forty energy to have half a chance at killing someone? Really?

Also, anti-melee hurts Assassins approximately one and a half bajillion times worse than it hurts Warriors, and they're a higher-priority target to boot. --71.229.204.25 04:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, sins are high-priority targets. I guess that's because they are so sucky and don't do anything, and most importantly because you can shut down (and keep them shutdowned) so very easy. - TeleTeddy 22:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Run that past me again and drop the facetiousness. I'm too tired to deal with that right now. ): --71.229.204.25 22:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Assassin Utility Buffs to Consider

assault enchantments - add "target foe suffers 5...20 damage for each enchantment lost"

beguiling haze - 10e and increase daze duration to 3...15

deadly haste - add "and become full-ranged"

expunge enchantments - 5e 20r

lift enchantment - add 5...40 damage

mark of instability - 5e 15r

scorpion wire - hex spell. after 8...2 seconds, target foe is knocked down and you shadowstep to it. full range, 10e 1c 15r make it useful ffs

shadow fang - reduce duration to 5 seconds. reduce recharge to 20. this would be a pretty cool skill. reminiscent of anime where enemy dies after hero unleashes flurry of attacks and is already far away in a cool pose

shadow refuge - you gain health if you are NOT attacking makes more sense

swap - can target foes and allies. increase recharge to 20 seconds. i see awesome use for this. you and 2 warriors all stand together. you swap the enemy monk. warriors gank it.

unseen fury - stance. for 1...16 seconds, you are unblockable and attack 33% faster against blinded foes. 5e 20r now that does the skill name more justice. blindbots would now blind non-melees just for this. team synergy ftw.

wastrel's collapse - elite hex spell. for 5 seconds, it does nothing. when it ends, target foe is knocked down. this ends prematurely if target foe uses a skill. (kd after 5 seconds, or if removed, or if uses skill) 5e 1c 12r change the worst elite in the game to a decent one. 222.127.223.69 17:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)shinde

Put them under the headings like everyone fucking else ;) — Skuld 18:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Except for Wastrel's, every last one of these is retardedly-fucking-overpowered. Don't quit your day job, dude. --71.229.204.25 21:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that people on this wiki can't give their opinion with out being extremely rude? I like the shadow refuge change and all scorpion wire really needs is a recharge reduction. Assault enchantments is fine the way it is imo It just hasn't seeped into the meta yet. Jigoku

Deadly haste would be awsome that way, i should cast daggers normal ranged all day long, also it should work instead of Deadly Paradox since its still 50% and paradox is 33%.

Wastrel's Collapse should've been that way from the beginning.

Swap would be my favorite skill if i could change possition on other people, i would use it on eles as they cast spells :D. the other skills doesnt need to be changed tho --Cursed Angel 23:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10224174 umm todah.

Swap would be hilarious if you could do that; especially versus flag runners in GvG. Let them get a head a bit, then hit swap just as they are about to get to the stand... Not to mention that Shadow Stepping makes you drop items, so that would be a great way to stop flag runners. NeonCrusader 02:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It'd also be downright dangerous. You'd just swap an enemy team member while standing next to a bunch of angry warriors, and then use return to jump back yourself. You'd also interrupt them doing so. Would be as cheap as anything.--Ckal Ktak 09:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point... How about... Spell. 5/.25/15. Swap places with target ally or foe for 20 seconds. If target ally or foe drops below 75...51...45% Health, this Spell ends prematurely and you both return to your original locations. It would seem less broken that way, imo. NeonCrusader 04:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This would still be overpowered and actually promote fights near doors. Since swap is a shadowstep and it's blocked by closed doors, you'ld just have to swap out the monk just before a guildhall door was closing, then it wouldn't matter if their health dropped below a certain point, they can only teleport back as far as the door. Dargon 15:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)