User talk:Lilondra/Gamebalance/Assassin/Archive1

fix

10/1/09 Added Palm strike Lilondra *gale* 14:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

8 second recharge doesn't change anything. The combo takes that long to do, then it's off to kill another target right away. All assassin chains should recharge no sooner than 15-20 seconds. ~Shard 20:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Nuked it :p Lilondra *Poke* 15:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

bump update Lilondra *Poke* 14:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Woosh i be running as a rit with another usefull elite skill to my accesoires Fox007 15:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

:) Lilondra *panda* 17:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Off-topic. PANDA Fox007 10:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Added deadly arts :) Lilondra *panda* 11:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

STILL BAD, SHAME ON YOU! NO MORE HELP FROM ME.Oni 12:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

You were such a great help :) /endsarcasm Lilondra *panda* 16:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Remedy's duration should really scale, if you want to keep it in this form. You do not want every physical to be near-immune to blind. Koda Kumi talk 16:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

cast time ;) Assassins will only be able to spike assist so it wont matter that much anyway Lilondra *panda* 20:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

DO NOT KILL PS!

are u srs? 25r? just make it 8 and wtf 1sec activation, its op now but ur version is trash, also 2 health every second=1 regen..wtf again? - Wuhy 15:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

ok i've changed some here and there coz what you were doing with shadow arts&ps was rly painful(dont revert pls, discuss first) - Wuhy 15:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

You do realize it's HIS balance page meaning you have no right at all to change it unless he gives permission? Other than that, 8 recharge is still too low for PS. Perhaps you shouldn't be build-biased. Dark Morphon 11:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

he said that on the main page we can help..and i wont fck with comments, i've done the 70% of the ranger skills, and i asked for permission first, doing the same with suggesting this and that on the talk page would take about 2-3 months tbh.. yes i could create my own balance page but why lol? everyone should concentrate on one to be effective, so...the fact that he done most of it and its on his userpage does not mean we cant add in something.. and srsly, shadow arts and his old version ps(25r 1cast 5e) rly bothered me...an elite skill with 60 touch dmg and 10 seconds of easily removable cripple...reverting to pre-dec11 is better than that tbh or rework or whatever, current is kinda good too... - Wuhy 17:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

DM just didnt want you to "vandalise" my page but its ok I agreed discuss with me on msn though Lilondra *panda* 19:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Entangling Asp

is better than shock since it is ranged and doesn't have exhaustion.

I know it has been touch ranged for a while but then changed back.Nothing on our (attila and my) balance is finished really.I make most of it by just write scratch write scratch and so on Lilondra *panda* 19:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Question on intention

Honestly, what worries me is that you intend to turn sins into spike support... now, if no class can truly spike and only spike support, we run into the current problems of defense being too strong. If other classes can spike themselves, then spike support is useless- just bring more of the spike class. Interrupt support, Healing, Range, etc. in addition to spike support can make sense... but designing a class solely to do spike support is a bad idea. Perhaps a better direction would be to take all three melee classes and give them decent spiking OR pressure. An example would be, say, a dervish with short recharge, lower damage skills for pressure, or using high damage, longer recharge skills to fulfill the role of spiking. This could apply to a sin or warrior as well, such as a sin that focuses on short recharge combos (Low damage L-O-D frontline sort of idea), or longer recharge spikes (O-D-O-D or something new like L-O-D-(Extra skill that can only follow a dual). This preserves the idea that the classes that have to put themselves at close range (in other words, risk death) have slightly higher damage, while the ranged have the support and utility.

My other problem is that the second you move sins to spike support, they're no longer assassins... they're melee versions of rangers, which you can already do by running up into point blank range as a ranger. I realize sins can bring Deep Wound or something more easily, but it blurs, or even eliminates the lines between classes. --Kalas Silvern 06:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

TBH I disagree that they would become rangers.They have knockdowns and DW to start with.They have alot more mobility aswell and have easy acces to shadowsteps.Actually it wouldn't make defense stronger TBH.I often play things like dualgare warrior blackoutcripshot and boonprot monk in AB.We pretty much steamroll the place.Its cause utility > damage ALWAYS.And if the need for protection/healing goes down so will the amount of defense put in a team.Monks are not healbots and they never should be.People should just run support again Lilondra *panda* 07:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to say damage > utility. I was just asking you to consider the consequences of giving a class designed to be a damage dealer a support/utility role. Also, my worry isn't about the amount of protection/healing needed, it's about whether it could become too strong as it has been for quite some time, leading to games where no one dies until everyone has a massive damage buff or health debuff of some kind. My worry was that if too much damage is removed, and especially if it's spread out so that it requires a large portion of the team to cause a killing amount of damage, you run the risk of making it impossible for either a) Individual initiative to matter (Yes, interrupts are an example of an individual taking the initiative- but a well timed spike by a high damage class when they see an opening is the same), or b)run the risk of rendering smaller formats, where you cannot necessarily bring a counter for everything, much slower, more stagnant games since it'll become entirely reliant on who's healer screws up/gets interrupted/knocklocked first. To sum it up, I guess what I wanted to point out that damage and utility are both vital, but in a balance. Being able to carry both on a single bar is what makes warriors good in GvG, and seeing other damage classes brought up to that standard is, in my opinion, what the aim of any balance should be. --Kalas Silvern 21:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Assassins cannot be balanced as an instagib spike.TBH 1 warrior spiking is spike support to me aswell.Atm I'm using the term for everything that cannot kill the target alone but adds in in the spike.I'd also like to note that in gvg ganks and stuff like that exist.I am not making it impossible to spike I am making it impossible to instagib as a sin Lilondra *panda* 06:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying instagib. I'm saying, either they need to apply enough pressure to fight the target while retaining the capacity to minispike(btw, Palm Strike pre-crippling version -> Twisting fangs is what I'm thinking of as a support spike, or as I prefer to say, minispike), or they need to have spikes capable of killing targets who don't react to defend themselves. The spikes has to be one that can be reacted to to be balanced- no "insta". The idea is to be able to fight- if they can support spike, but then face high recharges, you just rendered the sin helpless against an admittedly weakened foe- and auto attacking with daggers is absolutely hilarious, considering how poor the damage from that is. If they can't fight after a support spike, it's useless to have them, since warriors and dervishes can both easily due so due to vastly superior normal swings.

You also need to define killing a target alone. If no class should be able to kill solo, how do you resolve areas with no team coordination pre-match. Fort Aspenwood, RA, to a lesser extent, AB (can only coordinate own team). You know I've championed keeping non-gvg areas in mind balancing before, and that is where I'd be most worried. If your team isn't coordinated, it renders sins one of the absolute worst classes, since they can't kill, and on top of that, they're easily killed. As I said, I understand the worry about instagibs- I don't want sins balanced around instagibbing either. But an inability to continue doing damage after a minispike is a serious problem that would have to be addressed. So, to sum up both points, spike play should remain viable, but the idea of spikes occuring from one person in less than 3 seconds is idiotic and should be avoided. In addition to this, when the idea is to support spike, pressure needs to be maintained so that balance in non-organized or semi-organized pvp is maintained. --Kalas Silvern 12:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You fail to understand my ideas.A sin would still take away 450 ish health with his chain.Only this way he also applied degen and only wasted 3 slots ! The other slots he can spend in utility (for example a knockdown).Also I decided sins should have an easy time surviving.Granted they invest some skill slots/attrib pts in it :) To give you an Idea Frontline spike > midline > frontline > midline > frontline > ... Lilondra *panda* 07:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I see the problem was you and I having vastly different definitions of a support spike, or to use the term I did, minispike. I tend to think of something like old palm strike (90 damage or so, nothing else one) and twisting fangs with no other skills, then having your others to semi-pressure with. Ended up being a good 150 damage or so at times + deep wound, but obviously nothing close to 450 + conditions(and possibly deep wound). I'd consider that a full spike. Now that I understand that, your proposition makes far, far more sense- you can see why I'd be worried if you were turning their role into essentially an extra deep wound applier with crap pressure and mediocre damage. Issue somewhat removed, though I still think O-D-O-D should be doable, just not broken. --Kalas Silvern 12:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Blah, double edit >_<. To clarify something on your palm strike- does that "recharge all dual attacks" include ones disabled by your "5 second disable on other duals after a dual"? If it does, then I completely misunderstood, since I was thinking it was an unavoidable lockout. --Kalas Silvern 12:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats the idea yes.Try the wastrel collapse falling spider twisting fangs combo.It does more damage then you think ;).Assassins should not be able to rly pressure in a damage way but lock people down at the right moment,mobility (dash,shadowsteps) and mobility control(caltrops for example),good survivability AND a nice spike assist.Its a niche that isnt filled for the moment.Lilondra *panda* 04:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

proofread some of this.

General changes Using a Dual attack now disables all your other dual attack for 5 seconds.

Then....section below it...

Dagger Mastery Using a dual attack now disables all your other dual attack skills for 4 seconds.

And: Aura of Displacement While you maintain this enchantment you suffer from -3 pips of degeneration. might wanna say what kind of degen, health or energy.

personn5 20:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Fixd both.Thx for letting me know Lilondra *poke* 20:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank god..

You're not our game balancer xD -- Halogod35 00:54, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Because ... Lilondra *poke* 06:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

halogodfail - Wuhy 22:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Just pointing out how much you fail@balancing

Wastrel's Collapse  : Changed functionality to : Knock Down target foe.If target foe was not casting a spell you shadowstep to that foe.Otherwise you are knocked down for 4...9...10) seconds instead.Fails with shadow arts <5 5 ¼ 25

Alrighto, lets see if I got this right: You shadowstep to the target and knock him down, causing instantdeathspike. And people will be able to run this as a warrior with 5 shadow arts to get 2 sec ranged kd shadowstep in one skill. Making it what the fuck pressure in 4v4.

You fucking own at balancing, though. Since you balanced it with this epic drawback: otherwise you are knocked down for 10 seconds, scaling up? Why? Why should the penalty be even worse if you got decent shadow arts? Not to mention that NOONE, fucking NOONE will fail with that skill. Not casting a spell? What, you think people will be stupid enough to try to use this on flarespammers?

Overpowerd mechanic, laughable stats and fucking idiotic drawback. Am I helping now? ;>btwdontfuckingsuckandsaysomethinglikeITSELIITSOITSHUDBEOVERPOWERDOni 11:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Oni It was a typo the Idea was 4-1 and yh forgot to add that clause again.Now fuck off if trolling is the only thing you can do Lilondra *panda* 11:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't trolling you twat. This is stating the facts.Oni 17:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Then talk normal Lilondra *panda* 18:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Why? Dark Morphon(contribs) 11:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

If you really want to show your 12 years old do it somewhere else thx Lilondra *panda* 12:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, who the hell is the 12yold here? You just removed 5ish of my posts all explaining why some skills are poorly balanced. You didn't even respond to it. You're like a 10yold holding your hands over your ears screaming LALALALALA. If you think you're so god damn superior that you can go around calling me trolling 12yold faggot(yesyoudidthatonmsn). Go ahead and explain atleast one, (ONE) of the skills where I was wrong, and simple told it for trolling. Just ONE. If I'm not slandering your...fucking abomination of a balance; then go ahead and tell me what I was wrong about. Going to go LALALALALLALA here again and remove this post asking you to atleast use facts to counter argue now? If you do, you've pretty much proven my case of what a laughable twat you are, nub:3Oni 20:06, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Oni is altijd zo social en begripzaam niet waar? Fox007 22:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure your healthgain touchspike is OP.I did listen to you I changed around some skills.I just want you to talk on a normal tone.IF you can't I'll automaticly remove your posts.Lilondra *panda* 11:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

So basically, you are too much of a wuss to handle negativity? Wow.

Fine. I'll just state facts instead. The touchspike had enough damage to kill, target would be instantly kded so he wouldnt be able to kite because of your laughable shadowstep. And the spiking skill -wasn't even the effin elite-.

That's just as strong as the previous bloodspike. No, wait. It's even stronger in a way, since you only need one skill to spike with. (Except for the warrior, who carries dw+kd).Oni 19:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait, fuck this. This is bullshit. If you are actually thinking about defending this laughable bullshit of a balance, that's proof enough of your utter failure.

I'll revert my posts for the necro, though. (Well, not revert. I'll re-write them without insults).

Just to point out for every single reader how fucking terrible you are<3Oni 19:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Wastrel's was a mistake. I admit I made mistakes but the balance isnt finished.Unlike you dark morphon can make a point in a decent way.I'm not saying all you said was a lie.I just said you should say it in a decent way.Wich you did.

BTW I DID change +- every skill you mentioned because I know what you say in essence is 95 % of the time correct.However you do it with so many insults (get how shard didnt accomplish anything with izzy despite making some fair points ?) that I dont bother actually answering everything.I'm sure you are very good at GW oni I mean afterall you wouldnt notice they are ganking when you only face 2 guys at stand ^^ Lilondra *panda* 11:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

• Sigh*. You honestly are the same crap as Izzy. Onoes, I get insulted, LET'S IGNORE THE PERSON ALTOGETHER! Izzy was showing the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOUR as you are showing at this very moment. Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Your the one Ignoring me here btw.I did change the skills when Oni said it.I moved the post to idiotarchive because he couldnt type it into a normal way.I did NOT ignore him.I just want both of you to post in a decent way.TBH I dont care anymore wether you post or not.If you do post do it in a decent way or I WILL IGNORE YOU.(see how that is future tense) Lilondra *panda* 16:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Dancing Daggers

Throw a dagger, how fast does that go? -- Halogod35 07:01, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Have a size zero model swing a Barrel Hammer. How fast does that go? --63.227.13.231 07:14, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that Dancing daggers will always be a raw power skill.Its just badly designed so I want to nerf it Lilondra *panda* 07:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Blinding Powder

is now better at blinding than most elemesntalist spells. congrats, you would allow a melee class to dominate other melee classes with one skill. youre almost as good at balancing as ANET. congrats. 76.188.100.220 19:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that its OP this wa but your baed if your sayin its THAT imba.Blind gets removed instantly and sin is a frontline class Lilondra *panda* 20:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Single skill opinions

• Palm Strike: A broken mechanic such as this skill has should be reworked, not nerfed.

=> It should be nerfed instantly till better functionality is found.havent found one yet so this is the result Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Tbh, since this isn't a "live" update, there is no need to do such things. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Assassin's Remedy: I think it would be a better idea to make it trigger when you do hit, otherwise it just remains to be epic active blind removal.

=> I like its Idea with 2 sec cast.To me 2sec cast forces the assassin to run back reposition itself so he doesnt get interrupted cast and get back to get its target.It also isnt maintainable anymore so this is a nerf to critscythes Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shadow Form: Pretty strong. Being able to run 50% faster nearly half of the time will prove to be too powerful, even if it ends on being hit.

=> perhaps Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Beguiling Haze: Perhaps increase the required Shadow Arts investment to 8?

Good idea Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Aura of Displacement: Assassins don't really mind taking somewhat more damage when they can teleport from harm's way anytime anyway.

mmm Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Recall: Too harsh.

=> would Increase range again btw Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Death's Charge: Actually a rather big buff. Making it give health always will promote using it at any time, which is not an improvement since that equals bad play.

=> TBH the health thing means you get 2 uses for 1 skill wich is nice.I like it this way besides 1 sec cast makes these shadowsteps easy to catch?. Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really. If assassins will be used for ganking, they usually won't face opponents other than random flaggers and NPCs. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Sins cant instakill with their chains anymore.So they dont kill nearly as fast.Investing in Shadow arts to get that heal will slow them down even further.Testing should show if this still is a problem Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, a 12-10-8 spread really takes down your damage. Not. Dark Morphon(contribs) 12:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• Death's Retreat: Same goes for this one.

=> The problem is when monks use this TBH Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, because the heal is unconditional. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is the shadowstep mate.Not the healing.I need to find a way to make it sin only Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Dark Prison: The "move slower" part of this skill actually isn't that powerful, so I don't see why you intend to nerf it.

=> The Idea is to force investment.If you dont your target will still be able to kite away.Its not the moving thing its the compression that makes this powerfull.You should spec for compression wich is why I changed it this way Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shadow Prison: Same for this.
• Swap: Meh, not really usable due to 2 cast time.
• Spirit Walk: Possible.
• Wastrel's Collapse: Why this weird mechanic? It's largely fine as it is now.

=> Kinda :p Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Caltrops: I don't think this skill should get a nerf.

Are you kiding me ? It costs half the energy now Oo Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Assassin bars usually aren't tight on energy at all, most of their valuable attack skills cost 5 energy and they have CS to make up for a lot of these costs. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

2 recharge is worth 5 energy though. Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

1/2 extra cast time and 2 recharge is not worth it at all. Dark Morphon(contribs) 12:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• Shadow Walk: I don't really get this "not see-able on compass" idea. My question is, what's the point, really?

Gank more easely.Run away more easely. Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Entangling Asp: 3/4 touch skill KDs are more common. This skill is more powerful than shock without it.

=> Recharge and 10 energy cost.Will change though Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Enduring Toxic: A non-scaling Cripple is begging for abuse.

Going to make it scale Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Crippling Dagger: Either make it 1/4 cast or 3/4 cast. I'd say 3/4.

ok Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Dancing Daggers: With Entangling Asp made a touch skill, there is no reason to keep this skill weak really.

Yh Like 100 damage every X seconds is not powerfull enough.Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not overpowered because it forces you to stand to cast the spell, meaning your foe can have fled. In normal assassin combos, this skill just isn't worth it. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

And how exactly will it ever be used in normal sin combos with this functionality ? Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It won't. So change functionality. Dark Morphon(contribs) 12:42, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• Blinding Powder: Why put it in Deadly Arts? I thought Shadow Arts was supposed to be the defensive attribute. Other than that, giving Assassins ranged Blind may be a bad idea. Touch range or PBAoE might be a better idea.

=> Half normal range Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Half normal range is still ranged. Also, answer my other point. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Half normal range forces them to get back to midline wich is what I want them to.I agree on the move to shadow arts thing Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• Expunge Enchantments: Too powerful. Compare to Rending Touch, this will probably remove every enchantment on one foe whilst rending only removes 1.

=> Disables all skills.Might increase that time Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Only the non-attack skills. Warriors don't really mind that. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

changed Lilondra *panda* 15:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Overall, CritScythes and the like still remain a problem, Palm Strike assassins are nerfed to the ground, assassins still have no real utility and Shadow Steps now have 1 cast time (yay). In short, Assassins are still gimmicky and bad :/. Dark Morphon(contribs) 09:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

First commenting on your extra thing.The critscythes I got a fix I'll add now =).I think its best to make all primary attributes work only for that prof's own skills.This means crit strikes only works with daggers. Lilondra *panda* 13:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Then what's the point in running X/W or X/D if it doesn't get any difference worth mentioning anyway? Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you running a secondary to be that secondary profession or are you running a secondary to add-in,you know have that extra synergy or fill in a spot that X's skills cant? If your running mesmer for fast casting and not for skills thats a gimmick and gimmicks are bad for the game Lilondra *panda* 15:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're running mesmer with fast casting, it would be a waste of time if it would only apply to your own skills. Lots of skills have synergy with FC, particularly those that have somewhat longer cast times. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Lol,that post was hilarious. TBH your the guy playing captain obvious here so if someone resembles izzy its you (and since when should izzy be used as an insult ffs ?).Ow ok I see so if cast time balances something out Fast Casting is a good reason to make a skill imba.TBH skills I like to see on mesmers like Gale,flesh of my flesh + pure,... Dont even need FC. Lilondra *panda* 16:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

When I think about Izzy (who is the personification of bad balance) I don't think about obviousness. That's another random remark of you. You're trying to attack me personally and failing at it horribly. But really, should you remove any advantage of mesmers using secondairy skills just because you can't balance something out? Dark Morphon(contribs) 17:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Izzy is not the symbol of bad balancing in general TBH.I'm sure you can balance the game better then him if your not allowed to play it and have to follow some rules.The compagny also has a lot to say in how he has to balance.Captain obvious izzy often was.People said it was UP and he just said the skill description in his own words.That is not a false argument.

The advantage of a mesmer was given to them because most of their skills ARE BALANCED AROUND FAST CASTING.Your dumb if you fail to see that most skills were balanced around their primary.Ele's got an exhaustion buffer,Mesmers got a quicker diversion,Monks got buffs to their prot and healing,NEcro's well they got infinite energy and their gay but the Idea was to give them that energy for minion armies.Those profession's skills were BUILT AROUND THEIR PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE.I'm sry if your gay gimmick no longer works out if this would happen.Now before you say something about blablabla this discussion is OVER. I have more things to do then tell some nazi parrot why I dont agree with him Lilondra *panda* 17:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not. You're trying to close a discussion you are losing, again. Honestly, you are such a scallywag it isn't even funny anymoar. You say those skills were built around their primary. So when you use a different profession, it's weaker. Right? So what will happen if a mesmer uses such a skill? It will be weaker. Sure, their primary gives them an advantage but by not being a primary watever they are these skills are a lot weaker. See how your own argument turns against you? That just shows how terribly narrowminded YOU are. Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Lol ? They arent bad for another class because of that but cant be made stronger because of their primary.If your ignoring that lot of mesmer skills have long cast time (the non interrupts) and that fast cast makes those quicker again then your dumb.If your ignoring that any monk is forced to invest in divine favor simply because you cant miss it then your dumb.I could go on but like I said this discussion is over.Further posts will be moved to idiotarchive.I'm sick of this and btw my arguments dont turn against me your just going on rampage trying to point out flaws in my theory where there are none Lilondra *panda* 16:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)