User talk:Raine Valen/Archive 1

Skill table

Hey. I'm not a big expert on wiki stuff, but here's a temporary solution. for each skill list
{{skill table
| titlematch = Mending
}}
--JonTheMon 17:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll use this in the interim. I appreciate it. Also, I'll remove the category tags from said pages, though I have no idea how to actually delete the category (or, for that matter, the original page). Raine Valen 17:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Err, at this point I think you'll have to make a skill table for each separate skill. --JonTheMon 17:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what is is at the moment, though I'd like to eventually restore it to something a bit less... visually painful. Time to dig through wiki code indexes... >_<

Oh, and someone beat me to the tags. =x Raine Valen 17:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I had to "delete" the User talk:Raine Valen/Underpowered Skills page in order to move (therefore attributing) the page history on Talk:Underpowered Skills -- the revision you added after manually moving the content (the one saying you moved it to your userspace) couldn't be merged in, so you'll have to add that back in. Attribution is necessary for GFDL licensing, so when moving a page, please use the "move" tab -- that moves the page history along with the content. Thanks.-- Brains12 \ talk 17:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that's what that tab is for...

Well, since I don't really need a comment on the page in my userspace saying that a page has been moved to my userspace, I think that revision can stay out. =)

Also, would you happen to have a solution to the issue mentioned above? ^ Raine Valen 17:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm no good with DPL and skill tables; Poke can help you with that :) (by the way, I fixed the formatting on your comment a little; using br tags with indents doesn't work so well, so you have to re-indent the next paragraph. If that doesn't make sense, just view the differences.) -- Brains12 \ talk 17:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello there

Yes! I found your page of underpowered. Get Ready cause Im about to put a LOT of skills.--ShadowFog 21:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget to put a LOT of documentation on the talk page. :D Raine Valen 23:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh damn... np will get right to it.--ShadowFog 23:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thx, we love you. ^^ Raine Valen 23:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

New suckish skill

:) Halogod35 19:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow. I'll get right on that one. O.o Raine - talk 18:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Signature Image

As per GWW:SIGN#Images, the image in your sig should be no larger than 19px by 19px. Yours is bigger and disrupts normal spacing between lines - see here for an example - there's a lot of extra space between your vote and the ones above and below it. ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 17:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I fixed it. -- Wyn 18:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. =) Raine - talk 19:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Congrats to you.

for scoring silver... TWICE xD

Raine Valen scored silver on one of Halogod's Contests.

Raine Valen scored silver on one of Halogod's Contests.

-- Halogod35 01:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Skill Feedback section...

Take a look at this discussion and then this one. Making it short, Isaiah mentioned that the current system gives people the impression that he never reads anything, but he doesn't have enough time to read and reply to all suggestions. He proposed a system in which he would read and reply to a limited number of suggestions per week/month/whatever, so the community would have direct input regarding matters of its own choice, but that project was eventually met with apathy and abandoned. Erasculio 13:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, after reading most of that (I didn't get to the abandonment point), I'd like to ask why it was abandoned.

The system needs some streamlining, I'd have suggested something like... well something similar to what I have on my underpowered skills page.

Generate raw material. List of skills, everyone can contribute. Contributions limited to issue (why there's a problem with the skill in its current state) and suggestion (in the form of a skill description). No one adds repeats of the same description, or anything too similar (same thing, different numbers, for example).

Refine the raw material. Bullet points on each unique suggestion: "this suggestion is good because, it is bad because, and it should be changed in this way", or, alternatively, a "this suggestion is perfect in its current state". Minor tweaks happen; I'd recommend that the original posters of said suggestion revise them according to feedback on those suggestions. All of the suggestions get better this way. This takes the place of voting; a reasoning process is more constructive than a yes/no.

Present the refined material. After several changes, when the feedback on a particular suggestion begins to consistently say, "This is good, I wouldn't change this any more," (perhaps even a set ratio; 9 of 10 comments say that the suggestion is perfect in its current form) the suggestion is presented to a committee of community balancers (Auron and Shard come to mind).

Judge the submitted material. They respond, "Yes, this is good, it needs to be modified slightly, though," or, "No, this won't work at all because of this other factor," or even, "That suggestion is decent, but we'd like to see a few more before I decide on one."

Give the viable suggestions to Izzy. The committee gives the suggestion for the skill to Izzy. He decides whether or not it is doable. Doable suggestions are implemented, shot-down suggestions get revised and resubmitted.

I really don't think it needs to be more complicated than that. The bad suggestions get revised until they're good suggestions, the good suggestions get pushed up the ladder. Raine - talk 15:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It was abandoned because people lost interest. That's the same problem with your idea: people would lose interest. In the wiki, anything that takes too long to be implemented will eventually suffer from apathy and be abandoned; using your ideas as an example, people would lose interest in a suggestion long before it's fully refined and move on to the next big thing. Erasculio 15:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Is that a bad thing? I'd think that the people who aren't serious and lost interest wouldn't be the ones you'd want contributing to the balancing of the game. But that's just my opinion. Raine - talk 15:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that everyone left the discussion : x Erasculio 16:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I could see that being a problem. Again, I think that was the result of everyone deliberating over the topic while not actually doing anything. "While the Senate debated, I built the Canal." Someone just needs to do the damn thing...

I guess I should get started. Raine - talk 16:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

My biggest concern would be is who gets to decide what is a good suggestion and what is a bad one. If you'd vote on it, then you'd only get the most popular suggestions, not neccesarily the best. And if you'd let a certain/person group decide, you'd end up with biased suggestions. So how do you plan to handle that? 145.94.74.23 09:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Bad suggestions would be the ones that everyone says are bad; good suggestions would be the ones that aren't bad. There's nothing wrong with popular suggestions, as long as they're not bad; bad suggestions would be cut off at the next tier.

As far as a certain group deciding, why not have that voted on? The community, for the most part, knows who doesn't understand balance.

As far as bias goes, bias can't affect balance. I mean, I love Dervishes, but I'm completely aware of the fact that they're very poorly balanced. It's just a matter of finding people who care more about the game than they care about their own builds, and I don't think that would be a problem. Also, consider that smart balancers wouldn't overbuff a class or skill because their opposition can use it, too.

Note also that balance is an ongoing process. If something does get done badly, it can always be redone. For example, if I were to overnerf Wounding Strike to the point where it wouldn't see play, it would be easy to see that something would have to be done: skills that don't see play typically need fixing.

So, from this point, what would need to happen would be:

• There would need to be a page for each skill: communitybalance/profession/attribute/skillname.
• There would need to be a subpage for each suggestion: communitybalance/profession/attribute/skillname/username's suggestion.
  • These pages are changed based on feedback in the talk pages; old feedback is archived with the update.
• When the talk pages read: "Good suggestion." (for 9/10 posts), communitybalance/profession/attribute/skillname/username's suggestion gets posted at balance/submitted/username's suggestion.
• Voted-upon balancers review suggestion.
  • If it is not feasible, it gets archived and feedback is posted on communitybalance/profession/attribute/skillname/username's suggestion, where it is reworked and resubmitted.
  • If it is feasible, suggestion goes to User:Izzy/communitybalance/username's suggestion.
• Izzy reviews it.
  • If it can be implemented, it is implemented.
  • If it cannot be implemented, this information is relayed to the voted-upon balancers, and from there to the user that posted the suggestion.

All I really see that needs to be done is the creation of the pages and the election of the balancers.

Is there anything I'm missing? Raine - talk 20:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

/sigh

Nice try, but Izzy will not react anyway. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't say that I really expected otherwise. Raine - talk 15:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

That's why I used that expression. Busy people say "I am busy.", bizzy ones just ignore you to death or an even more cruel fate... making you play WoW. *shivers* Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 04:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if maybe he died or something. Or like, left aNet and they don't want to tell us. Or... something. =/ Raine - talk 12:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he was abducted by aliens and he is being tortured as we speak so that he will finally balance the game decently! Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I actually feel kinda bad for hoping you're right. Raine - talk 15:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Olol. Anyway, my comments are being removed which I find rather funny. Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I noticed. I also find that pretty funny. xD Raine - talk 17:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This update was horrible btw, never saw such a clear example of power creep... Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm currently abusing Palm Strike to farm Balth faction in JQ. Plz don't nerf my farming builds anet. QQ

What I loved about the Monk update is that it's now possible to create non-WoH solo Monks. But WoH's still better. Why? Because Monk non-elite heals, for the most part, blow. Ray of Judgment spike is pretty win, though. I run four smiters (two hybrid ele, one hybrid heal, and one hybrid prot), makes something die every 20 seconds. Or less if you get a HSR. Four Rays on a Monk with a 90% speed hex is gg.

Elite Frenzy made me lol. And elite Bull's almost made me cry. Conjure Slashing is pretty cool, I totally miscalled that one.

Mandragor's Charge (PvP) is awesome. Palm Strike makes sins decent, which is pretty sweet. I think it could use a slight nerfing, though. As it is now, at r13 Crit Strikes, it's almost 20 dps from that skill alone on recharge, let alone the attack chains between Palm Strikes. And, oh, the knockdowns... Mark of Insecurity is stupidly overpowered.

I haven't played with the eles' new toys, except bsurge. And well, it's bsurge. Enough said.

Onslaught got a much-needed buff (Harrier's Grasp needs the same one), and Reaper's is actually pretty decent now. If it wants to be as broken as WS, though, it's going to need to drop some recharge time. 6s would make it just imba enough, I think.

I don't play Ranger very often; I haven't had fun with the new skills.

Same deal for Mesmer, except I did use Symbols of Inspiration. Which is win. I mean pick an elite spell (WoH, Spiteful, VoR, SH...) and add 14 Fastcasting. That's totally balanced.

I don't know anything about Paragons. I've never played one, ever.

Clamor of Souls is just silly. Free airspike from Monks every ten seconds?

Cultist's needed a buff, but now it's pretty damn imba. Unlimited Curses for free? They buff Peace to counter hexway, then they make Hexway stronger at the same time. WTF? Aura of the Lich is hax in RA.

All-in-all, it was a pretty damn good update. Thanks for listening to the players, Arena Net. :D Raine - talk 16:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Just to make sure...was that last line sarcasm or not? 145.94.74.23 08:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Very much so, yes. Raine - talk 08:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol

"As a Dervish, you cannot pressure." - 70.15.5.28 03:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"As a Dervish, you cannot pressure." - 70.15.5.28 03:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"As a Dervish, you cannot pressure." - 70.15.5.28 03:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"As a Dervish, you cannot pressure." - 70.15.5.28 03:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Uh... you can't. Welcome to a year and a half ago. - Auron 03:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

GG

You are now on my cool list :D. Dark Morphon(contribs) 13:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Wha happened? =o

And wait! Why wasn't I on it before? D': Raine - talk 13:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, mainly because I sort of... Forgot xD. Dark Morphon(contribs) 13:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

... Raine - talk 22:52, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Think really, really hard on wheter you should take being on his cool list as a compliment. Especially since he forgot you earlier. :p 145.94.74.23 14:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol ur baed. Dark Morphon(contribs) 09:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

In case wondering, no I'm not being srs bsns. Dark Morphon(contribs) 10:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

lol? Raine - talk 10:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Just wanting to say is this: anything I say to mr anon isn't serious anyway because he doesn't understand skill balance. Since you do, I'm being srs bsns to you. Dark Morphon(contribs) 10:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I kinda like 145. He doesn't understand balance, but he does show a willingness to. And he accepts good logic most of the time. Plus, 145 totally isn't an anon. 145 is... well, 145. Raine - talk 11:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Every time I saw him talking about last month's update, he wasn't accepting logic. Usually he says his arguments, other people show him these arguments are wrong and then he simply stops talking altogether. Prove me wrong. Dark Morphon(contribs) 11:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Try this: I give my arguments, you apply incorrect logic, ignore the arguments you cannot counter and throw in a few fucks. I get offended, I decide to ignore you altogether knowing that I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine, making further discussion pointless. 145.94.74.23 14:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Last time I provided a counterargument (we were discussing PvE imbalance and Anet's Approved List of Skills), you ignored it, calling me elitist and saying that my response was "exactly what you expected to hear", though I'd said nothing (explicitly or implicitly) that had anything to do with elitism. Raine - talk 14:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

^That. I can give you countless of examples where you did that, 145. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:03, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, opinions didn't count as arguments. But I'll admit, I'm not particularly fond of metagamers. They're too narrow minded in opinion. My apologies if I called you an elitist, I do tend to overreact a bit (lot) when I am in a bad mood. 145.94.74.23 15:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not particularly fond of being required to be a metagamer (or run gimmicks) (which, sadly, are pretty meta now) to win. Raine - talk 15:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way, are you sure that was me? I rarely use the word elitist, and I suppose my IP isn't the only one that starts with 145. Maybe I should get an account. 145.94.74.23 15:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

There are other 145s on this wiki? I haven't noticed them. And if you (or other 145) didn't use the word "elitist", it was implied. Though I'm 90% sure that the word was, in fact, used. Raine - talk 15:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, anyway, I am sorry I offended you. It wasn't intentional. 145.94.74.23 15:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

You should get an account and name it 145 (this useless contribution was brought to you by the "Save Prince Rurik!" Foundation - donate today and help make Wamos everywhere happy!). Erasculio 15:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

You can make it up to me by reading this and starting the talk page! :D

And OMFG don't edit conflict me on my own page, WTF does this look like to you? Gawsh, wkik nubs... jk =P Raine - talk 15:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

(speaking of edit conflicts...)I don't think there are any other 145.x.x.x ips that have a talk page, let alone one with an archive. It probably is time for you to make an account. That way, we can be sure we are insulting you and not some other random ;) --Riddle 15:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, tbh 145, the only discussion we have had is in your archive. You never answered my arguments. Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed DM, and you know why. 145.94.74.23 15:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

No you. Dark Morphon(contribs) 11:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

No U Fox007 11:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I told you I didn't want to reply unless it was asked (not demanded) in a normal way, without insults or elitism. However, the first person that replied to you immediatly got pelted with fucks and fails again, so I decided to end&archive that discussion. 145.94.74.23 12:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)