User talk:Regina Buenaobra/Archive Wiki Topics/Jan 2009

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Your signature image and copyright

Once again, the subject of your signature has been brought to my attention regarding the copyright status. Since Metroid is copyrighted by Nintendo, all artwork representative of it is also copyrighted and in direct violation of ArenaNet's stated Copyright policy for GWW. I need to ask you to please find a non copyrighted image for your signature. Thanks! -- Wyn/talk 12:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you work for Nintendo? 216.232.127.117

Is it metroid? I can't personally tell. Could be some amoeba creature or jellyfish thing. I mean it reminds me of a metroid a little, but who is to say? I certaintly haven't seen a Nintendo copyrighted image of the one Regina is using. --Ravious 17:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

you don't copyright specific images, you copyright concepts and inventions. Metroid has been copyrighted, so an artist needs to have permision from nintendo in order to re-create their work. It's possiable that nintendo might have relased some images/work into the public domain, in which case as logn as the licenses match it's perfectly acceptable to use it, but from what i udnerstand the image in Regina's signature, hasn't been approved of by Nintendo, nor is it an image that they ahve released into the public domain. (i think i got that right...)--~PheNaxKian Talk 17:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

This is an enlargement of Regina's signature image. -- Wyn/talk 17:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is just one previous mention of it being a Metroid. -- Wyn/talk 18:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe the image, although not created by Nintendo, is still a "derivative work" and is still copyrighted by Nintendo. It is just a reproduction of a copyrighted work is is not significantly different to be considered a new work. However, I am not a lawyer; this is based on my understanding of USC 17 §101. -- Indochine talk 18:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

our CM doing something legally wrong... no... never. (I lol'ed, I lol'ed so hard) 118.92.167.172 18:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

PheNaxKian, you are so wrong on so many accounts please go to wikipedia and learn about copyrights. Your first 10 words are the most wrong. Indochine is correct, but so far I have not seen a picture produced as evidence that shows an originally copyrighted work produced by Nintendo where Regina's picture is not significantly different. I guess we would be like the wikipedia, and when a mod says something is wrong without any evidence, things could just go up for deletion. Before anybody retorts they should read the Perfect 10 case, which states that creating a thumbnail of an original work was "highly transformative." In this case Reginas's "metroid" is a thumbnail, has different colors, AND I believe it was originally created to work as pixel art(not just resized). --Ravious 19:35, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

like i said, i think it was right, I never said i was sure about it >.>. As for an image showing it: (long url), image doesn't exist but you can see the thumbnail depicting it (note the website is the official Nintendo magazine) or alternatively there's this from Wikitroid (bottom left), Blue metroids are from the Metroid Prime games, where Metroids have been mutated by Phazon (and indeed can be just about any colour as such). Truthfully i think Regina's sig is a representation/simplification of the first image I linked to (they look incredibly similar to me anyway). ~PheNaxKian Talk 20:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The images Phenaxkian linked to were the ones I was referring to. -- Indochine talk 20:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

This sounds familiar, and I beleive another user brought up this same topic before, and the sysop team cleared Regina's sig and agreed that it's not a vio. time to go archive diving. — Jon Lupen 22:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I did dig up a comment by Regina that I think will carry some weight. "Well, not exactly. *puts Metroid nerd hat on* Metroids in the games generally have green goo surrounding the central nuclei, unless they're angry -- then they're red. The clearest shot of a metroid with blue goo surrounding the nuclei is in a picture of concept art from Super Metroid (1994). But it's still not exactly the same, because it's mostly clear with a blue outline. Unlike the sig image, which is filled-in blue. --Regina Buenaobra 19:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)" Still looking for that exact discussion. — Jon Lupen 22:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

So if I were to take a picture of Mario, only with pink clothing instead of his red/blue, it wouldn't be in violence of any copyright? Sounds funny to me. --Arduinna 22:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

From my understanding, it would be. Also from my understanding, an artistic interpretation is not a vio. Something such as this as an artistic interpretation of this would be acceptable. Sysops, please correct me of I'm wrong. — Jon Lupen 23:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In the past we have disallowed other artistic renditions of identifiable icons. I personally don't see much difference. Here is the actual Nintendo art -- Wyn/talk 23:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's going to be such a disruption, I'll just remove it, no worries. --Regina Buenaobra 23:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I would advise uploading a new version of your sig image, instead of a completely new one, so the image doesn;t get deleted and leave massive red holes in your sig in archives and such. — Jon Lupen 23:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Does this work?

Well, I think I just broke something.--Regina Buenaobra 00:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Jon: I tried to do what you advised, but it didn't work, so I deleted it, but after that it showed those "massive red holes". I tried to upload an image that wouldn't violate the rules, but it showed the offending image again. I don't have time right now to fix it so it's not there anymore. I'm sorry. Could someone help me with that? --Regina Buenaobra 00:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The servers have issues with image caching. it usualy won't show the updated image right away. Give it an hour or so, and if it doesn't change, then something has probably gone wrong. — Jon Lupen 00:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

If you wish to replace your metroid image file with another image, you'll have to make that new image a png. Currently, your grey box is a jpg, so it can't be uploaded over the metroid. -- Brains12 \ talk 00:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, the sysops will get around to deleting the offending violation, so you don't have to worry about doing that yourself. -- Brains12 \ talk 00:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

/sad --Ravious 00:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

^ yea i thought that it was ok because the image in question was created by a user and not a exact rip off of metroid but maybe im wrong. also i think you need a distinctive sig. so your reply's are easy to spot. 75.165.125.117 07:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify from a legal perspective and from a user with a Law LLB, for those of you arguing otherwise, artwork which a reasonable individual would consider to be derived from works which have been subject to copyright, trademark or other forms of intellectual property protection are indeed a copyright vio (or other such vio dependent upon the form of protection granted). Their is ALOT more to it than that really but not really up to giving a whole lesson on intellectual property. In short if you look at pg35 of the super metroid manual (which you can find online) you can find basically the same image with slight differences. I hasten to say this is not to jump on the bandwagon, it is just to clarify for future reference if this ever arises again with other users. EDIT: I feel Regina's pain though as I personally would love to use some Suikoden rune artwork as part of my signature but alas I cannot. :( -- Salome 14:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Quick question... does it still matter if we use it as a fan, so it ends up being publicity for the original game/artist? I mean, she's not using this for her personal gain (directly or indirectly)? I'm asking also because my current forum avatar is the Zebra from Pearls Before Swine. I'm a big fan of the comics, and I see this as more of a publicity than a copyright violation. I'm not presenting the art as my own, or having any profits from it. -- Alaris 17:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Alaris, the problem is that ArenaNet's legal department has been very rigid about the copyright requirements for GWW. They only allow ArenaNet copyright, public domain, and created art released under GFDL. We are not even allowed Fair Use images. Regina, thank you for changing it. I felt bad having to ask, but it has come up too often to not. Thanks again! -- Wyn/talk 17:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I also agree that Regina should have something more identifiable as a signature, so here is an alternative I came up with, using the same general color scheme as her old one. -- Wyn/talk 17:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I just made that as a placeholder until I could come up with something better. --Regina Buenaobra 18:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

That's cool Regina, and I'm not trying to take the creating of a new sig icon away from you, I just think it's better to use the same format (png) so that all your signatures will match once you do determine a permanent replacement, rather than having different images on different entries. Of course that is just an opinion. -- Wyn/talk 19:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you should join the Paw Alliance. Gaile can get you in should you wish to join =D — Jon Lupen 00:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know they ignored legal precedence on the Isle. --Ravious 23:58, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Aw, man :( Fair's fair, I did use the image above as reference, although it wasn't a direct copy. Regina, do you by any chance have a copy of the original? I lost mine when my server died, and I'd quite like to use it myself (not on the wiki, of course). I could just recreate it, but I'd rather not have to. -- AT(talk | contribs) 11:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not a suggestion, it is a question regarding the wiki.

Hi Ms Regina,

I've read your welcome thingy and it does not say anything about not asking about how the GW2 suggestion page works. and I also do not trust anyone that I can ask.

So here goes:

I have a question regarding the guild wars 2 suggestions page. What is it there for actually? Why are there users who simply motion suggestions to be deleted? what kind of policy did Arena Net Allows these users to do actually?

I love guild war, really i do, and I love contributing my suggestions but can it live long enough to be read by an arena net staff is a whole other questions. I am not asking you to prevent any of my suggestions from being deleted, I can take care of that myself, beside I've copies of them on my own page.

I've seen chaos and bad comments and just plain evil user trying to get rid of as many suggestion as possible with lame reasons like wrong layout. If the layout is wrong but the suggestion is good, as a wiki community I'd correct the layout instead of quickly motion it for deletion.

As for now, I won't even bother to contribute any more of my un-ending flow of ideas if that place remains infested with trolls.

Cross my fingers and hope your not angry I ask you this.

Thanks Pumpkin pie 11:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

ArenaNet has nothing to do with the creation or enforcement of policy. It is the community (yes, that includes you) who decides that. Any user can tag a page for deletion if they believe it to be worthy; sysops act on their discretion whether or not to delete any particular suggestion. So far, 95% of those that have been deleted/await deletion merit it.

Suggestions which are unreadable because of poor formatting may get deleted because frankly, no one is willing to bother to fix them up. It's all fine and good if you wish to volunteer your own time to do that. But that task is too much work for one person to accomplish - there are just too many suggestions to fix. Thus, inevitably, some will get deleted anyway.

Finally, there are better places to post your suggestions than the wiki; forums, for example, are more often read and better suited to suggestions-type posts. Vili 11:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty sure I wasn't there when the policy are being voted/created/implemented, and yes I did corrected lots of spelling mistakes and layout "imperfection" (imo) that's what users are here for, help the community, not find fault with other users and saying everyone else contribution are shit and worthless. BTW, the question is directed at Ms Regina because this is after all Guild Wars Official Web Page. Pumpkin pie 12:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

This may be the official wiki, but it isn't run by Arena Net. It's the community who decides which sections are kept and which sections are deleted, as well as which policies the wiki will follow and how said policies will be followed. Feel free to ask Regina whatever you want, but, as pointed to you before, she isn't in position to tell the community to delete suggestions or not. Erasculio 12:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It was generally agreed that ArenaNet should have some greater measure of control over the ArenaNet namespace. --Rezyk 13:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

That discussion is nearly a year old and so does not apply to the current situation, since any such changes would already have developed. It also is irrelevant to ANet taking part in policy crafting/enforcement. Vili 13:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen an ArenaNet user comment outside the skill feedback or bugs pages. They didn't answer that section you linked, so whatever was agreed upon then can't be said to be an agreement with ArenaNet; after all, if they're going to have "some greater measure of control", they need to acknowledge and agree to that, which they didn't. I don't think they've joined in with community discussions about them either - and there have been a lot. I don't think that 'general agreement' applies anymore, if it ever did. Maintenance (including cleanup, tagging, deletion, discussion, and vandalism patrolling) is, and always has been, up to the community. ArenaNet's role (purely as a company, not as individual users who are included in that community-base) in the namespace is limited to reading the pages and giving their responses. Regina's response in a section above, "Right now, we don't have the resources to provide or create an official alternative if the wiki community decided to remove the Suggestions pages", implies the decision to remove the suggestions area lies with the community - and I don't think you can get a higher measure of control than that.

I also think this might be a good moment to bring up that list of questions again.

Pumpkin Pie, the policy which allows any user to tag a page for deletion is Guild Wars Wiki:Deletion policy, which was decided by the community through discussion. If you disagree with a deletion tag, you should discuss it on the talk page. If you think someone is abusing that privilege, discuss it with them personally. Of course, edits completely in bad faith which can't be sorted out through discussion might require admin attention, but discussion is first and foremost. -- Brains12 \ talk 15:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

As the others have said, this is a community run wiki. Members of the wiki create and enforce policy. There are times when we need to set boundaries, such as the licensing terms, for example, but the community runs the wiki in general. The suggestion pages operate much like the fan site forums do. Players post suggestions. Developers read the forums and the wiki. They see suggestions. This structure is also fairly common in other games, too, with the exception that most games typically do not have an official wiki. LOTRO is the only game of a similar type that has an official wiki, but from what I gather from my research, Turbine exercises more control over their official wiki and policies than we do with ours. Players can also send suggestions to us via email.

In an ideal world, I would have the resources and staff to develop and launch a smart solution for suggestions and feedback, something that is more user-friendly than the wiki and easier to aggregate and pull data from than forums. Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world, so while I give ideas to the team here on what I think we should do to provide a better suggestion tool for the community, at the moment we are not able to do much to alleviate the inherent problems with using a wiki for this type of content. --Regina Buenaobra 01:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)