User talk:Shard/Archive3

Ever played

Golden Sun? It's ridiculously fun, even if Felix and Sheba are kind of eh class-wise. -- Armond Warblade 02:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

My friend had it and I played it a bit...it's alright, I didn't play it enough to appreciate it. ~Shard (talk) 03:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

1st Golden Sun pwned 2nd imo. — ク Eloc 貢 04:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I played the second before the first. The Lost Age seemed much more aimless than the first, like the first three-fourths of the game were just setting up for the real heroes to join up. Of course, if you don't have a password from the original Golden Sun, the original characters are uselessly weak. What did you guys think of the general story? --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 17:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought the storyline was pretty sweet. I remember in like grade 6 I would skip the beggining of class so I could try and beat that like last boss or whatever. lol — ク Eloc 貢 20:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The second game blew chunks, storyline-wise, with the exception of the Izumo and Lemuria portions, right up until you met up with the original crew (who were by no means hopelessly weak; any gear you could transfer over became useless by the time you hit 40 anyway, though the lack of djinn and transfer items such as Masamune hurt). I love the plot of it, and indeed the entire gameplay; I've played it around ten times now (that's only counting full playthroughs of getting everything in the first game, transferring, and getting everything, including all transfer events, in the second), and I want moar.

My main beefs are the Madra blushing scene (whoever wrote the script for there was a dumbass), the lack of Babi's boat (seriously, what happened to it?), and the fact that Felix and Sheba are basically duplicates of Isaac and Ivan.

...Doesn't mean I don't occasionally write fics, though. It *is* an awesome story, after all. >.> -- Armond Warblade 01:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I got the second one for my... 11th birthday, I believe, and I was reading through the map and manual because you can't enjoy a game without knowing the background dammit. Or at least I couldn't. Anyway, it had events from the first game, and as I was playing through, I was thinking "Man, even reading about the first game is more awesome than most of this." I really liked the first one, though.

Well, maybe I didn't like using the original cast when I met up with them in the second game because I overprepared for the third lighthouse. I think I ground myself stupid to level 50-55 before even going in. If I had played the games the right way around, I probably wouldn't call them useless, since I'd have all the cool things that made me groan over my poor luck to have started with the wrong game. --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 01:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

/agree with background. Picard was fucking awesome, though. -- Armond Warblade 02:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Alex was a badass villain. Reminded me of Sephiroth, but with blue hair and more magic.

And man, I wanted Rising Dragon as a player-usable spell... only the mars adept bad guys could cast it :( -Auron 08:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sig image

You'll need to take it down to 19x19px at the most; it's currently at 21 which may affect the line height on talk pages.-- Brains12 \ talk 23:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say remove it- it's fugly. Or use this as a sig: "SHARD IIV." It eez betteh. -- NUKLEAR IIV 08:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

lmao. — ク Eloc 貢 21:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

--SuperShard for coolness and manlyness points --Cursed Angel 21:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's against some retarded wiki policy to make your sig look like someone elses. ~Shard (talk) 07:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Try it, so you get to bitch about it when admins start wailing. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's only fun for a few people. The precise policy is in GWW:SIGN#General rules and considerations, second bullet, so I wouldn't exactly call it "wailing," unless that's what you associate with their warnings. Well, I guess that pretty much makes me what the lower caste of GWW would call a "Policy whore." By lower caste, I mean those who wouldn't even bother paying attention to policy. That's none present, as far as I know. --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 14:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no one impersonating anyone. We're just saying that we find our own signature sytles to be vastly superior to shard's, and propose that he addopt such a style. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Second sentence. --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 15:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you refering to this line? "Do not attempt to impersonate another user. Avoid having similar signatures to reduce the possibility of mistaken attribution." If not, then please quote, becuase I'm just too boneheaded right now. Meh. Whatever. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) You got it! The start of the sentence you bolded is the one I'm talking about. You're less boneheaded than you think you are, apparently. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's what applies. If it weren't for that little line, you could be the Borg of signatures. --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 15:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Does chaiyo know that it's only a guideline, not a policy? ~Shard (talk) 22:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

How is my sig now? Is it as superior as yours nuklear? ~Shard

I know, I know, no need to talk around me. If you want to get technical, it's a consideration, since Guidelines are more like whole pages, rather than sections of policy. Anyway, I like the orange. --Chaiyo Kaldor talk contribs 01:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Use manlier orange and icon. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

GIVE. ME. EMULATOR.

RAPIDSHIT NAO. Well,not now, won't access to my comp forabout 2 weeks. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey that means I have 2 weeks to think of a way to say I CANT PACKAGE THE EMULATOR in a polite way. ~Shard 17:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Another way would be to tell me how it works and how you did it? -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

How it works:

It's a computer program that uses a series of logic checks and mathematical calculations to decide what to show on the screen.

How I did it:

Wrote from scratch.

Besides, I broke it the other day while trying to code online connections, so I have to uncode it back to single player before I can use it again. ~Shard 20:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

WINZIP WOOOO :p (yh i'm noob at things like that) Lilondra 07:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

You need to be more... uhhh.... concise. Can't you just package it all in one folder, Rapidshit or utorrent it? -- NUKLEAR IIV 08:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I could, but then you'd come back and ask me how to run it, and I'd rather not explain it. It took me hours to setup the thing that starts it up.

I will tell you when I have a *working* version. I tried to make it "multiplayer," and somewhere down the line, I broke the physics engine, so I have to rewrite part of the engine, meaning at the moment even I can't use it. I haven't even programmed most of the UI yet, so you won't be able to do anything but move around and jump and stuff. Right now it works off my game's rules instead of GW's, I'm slowly adding a feature to switch to "guild wars mode."

There, now you have 3 reasons why I can't package it.

1. I broke it.
2. There isn't much you can do in-game.
3. It doesn't use GW's rules yet.

However, Maybe this will satisfy your appetite in the meantime ~Shard 09:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Coooool... Are you making a new guildwars? If so, damn ugly icons. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:03, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a group effort to recreate Guild Wars from some people, not sure if this is the same project or a different one. Last I knew that project didn't have any graphics and they were still building the engine, but this was early 2007, so..DarkNecrid 11:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Guild Wars Lan Project is an GW emulator. That's not what I'm working on. I'm independently working on my own game which will have the ability to "simulate" the GW rules, in addition to having its own ruleset.

GWLP is coming along slowly though, but I do hope it gets done. ~Shard 21:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm, wasn't talking about GWLP. This is a group of people that Tiyuri and others are a part of, last I knew. They had a cube moving in a grid, no textures or anything. The eventual goal is to have a recreated GW PvP, most likely from just Prophecies, over the internet. Should be cool if it ever finishes tbh. I need to find that youtube again, but I don't remember the search terms. DarkNecrid 09:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Balancing~

Heya, twas wondering if you could take a look at User:DarkNecrid. I spent most of the night working on it so. <_<;. Maybe discuss it or whatever. It doesn't look very pretty and it's pretty long, but y'know, if you ever get some free time~ DarkNecrid 16:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Updated it. The new stuff is bold, though I may have missed a few things. Changed stuff around you mentioned that I agree with. I made a change with how Enchantment removals work in this update to my update, and I think you might like it! DarkNecrid 12:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I like the balances you (and Necrid too) proposed. Really good ideas, wish they got more attention. Mango 02:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Form

I feel really bad for those kangaroos....and I feel bad because I laughed at that too. Nice work ^.^ -- Wandering Traveler 06:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Immune to lawsuits huh? Interesting.... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:DarkNecrid (talk).

I made a small modification. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I've made a better one. ~Shard 22:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I guess. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Love it ^^ Lilondra 14:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Mending

Unaware of that yar dying? FOOL! If you use mending you WILL NOT DIE. I just got through a ra match FLAWLESS using mending!!!!Oni 03:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Izzy@hb?

To quote you: Also, stop lowering people's rank just because they beat you. Being a terrible game balancer and a terrible player is NOT an excuse to be a sore loser as well. ~Shard Image:User Shard Sig Icon.png 07:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Did this actually happen?Oni 18:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Happened to a friend. He beat izzy in HB, trash talked him a little, then the next day had a wolf instead of his tiger. ~Shard 04:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If thats even possible thats reason to fire him IMO. 68.151.16.139 04:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think sucking at one's job is reason enough. ~Shard 04:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That to, but then half of A.Net wouldn't work. 68.151.16.139 04:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

can you fire someone because of weight ? ugly looks ? cuz then we would have 4 + X reasons (X being the other guys he lowered rank from or other mistakes me made (while drunk))Lilondra 17:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

He could've had his account banned for being unsportsmanlike (it's in the EULA ;o). — Skakid 05:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

YH but the point is that if you laugh at a random guy in HB you get some flaming if you laugh at izzy for being such a complete morronyou get youre rank lowered.(just scroll down @ the link)Lilondra 06:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, a human being made a minor mistake! What is this world coming to? — Skakid 06:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor Oo ORLY Its his job to prevent these mistakes 1 isnt that bad but then for the love of god fix it within fewm onths mkay ? Lilondra 06:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Uhhhhhh wail is fine sry — Skakid 07:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

not in small arenas (in GVG WS alone = death so why wail lol) Lilondra 07:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

A 1/4 second kill spell is fine? You couldn't be more wrong if you were OJ's jury. Honestly, I'd expect more from...oh wait, it's Mr. "I heroway cheat in ATs." I thought you were someone good. ~Shard 08:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Wail of Doom is so imbalanced, that's why it's so used often. It's great on paper and in TA, but it's a good skill everywhere else. I'd expect more from... oh yeah. — Skakid 08:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you like some fries with your Proving Shard's Point? ~Shard 08:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

oops — Skakid 08:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

skakid youre missing the point.In gvg its an elite blackout and with a meta like this you got like 3 monks + an rt monk + smiters + 3 derv with WS (lameway imo).So using WoD is rather ineffective.Even with 2 monks you still got a backup and its just not worth bringing 2 of them.(necros only got few decent skills aside from hexgay imo).BUT in TA there only is 1 monk and a smitersupport so WoD is like ranged backbreaker yay.Wich = KILL.If its imba there it should be nerfed .TA still is non simulated pvp so keep that in mind.Youre a great player dont get me wrong but saying wod isnt imba is like saying there is no problem withthe meta or izzy's balance.heck there shouldnt even BE a meta.Lilondra 09:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Skakid, do you honestly think a skill is fine because it isn't used? That's what the infinite damage dark aura combo was. Unused, but still broken up to its eyeballs. Don't post on wiki about balance anymore. You only get other people thinking stupid. ~Shard 03:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Imo WoD isnt OP in gvg its just like hey we lose 1 of our 3+ monks but WHO CARES because with a WS meta we have so many its hard for some people to count !When WS gets nerfed and 2 monks are sufficient WoD might see use but will still be less powerfull imo then A Knockdown.However that is a personal opinion i'm not rly a pro Lilondra 13:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

You're comparing a skill that can do 9800 DPS brokenly with a skill that does it's intention. If it's unused it's obviously not broken, lol. Broken is thumpers, soul reaping, dervishes, ect. — Skakid 20:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"If it's unused it's obviously not broken, lol."

Read the section on my page entitled "How to lose an argument." There have been tons of underused skills in the past that were still broken. Being overused/underused is zero indication of how strong something is.

Also, dervishes are nowhere near broken. ~Shard 23:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this just me or

does youre link here of the last update actually links to an update that buffed shadowform Oo no major problems introduced ? ok you proly mean pvp but still that update killed the game for 60 % of the players.half of the game for 20 % of the players so... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Lilondra (talk).

I look at pvp when I determine that. ~Shard 23:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Armond did just remove an error i was the one noting that comment Lilondra 06:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah so you like nerfing Blinding surge eh ?Lilondra 06:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

? I don't understand what you mean. Bsurge is weak right now, I don't think it's on any of my pages. ~Shard 07:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

no i mean you liked the update where they nerfed bs to hard causing wounding strike to reign if bs was still alive we wouldnt have so many of them imo.Lilondra 08:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Compared to the last 50 skill updates we've had, yes, I liked that one. Like I said, it solved more problems than it caused. ~Shard 08:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

well yh but if you compare with worse you always get better :p Lilondra 08:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

My Simon Le Bon User box

He's just that amazing...I had to make a user box for him. I need to look through GW skill icons to find more duran duran looking ones. Yasmin Parvaneh 23:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

This user LOVES Simon Le Bon.

Nice one! ~Shard 23:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Omg I just realized...is there any wiki rules about me using a Duran Duran related image for my sig? Yasmin Parvaneh 23:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

As long as they wont sue over its use. Use your artwork. ~Shard 23:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok here's my siggie...how does it look? --*Yasmin Parvaneh* 07:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Very flashy ~Shard 09:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are you comparing HP with Resto?

I'm serious. We all know healing is absolute and total shit when compared to semi-decent attribute lines, such as, I dunno, say, prot? The true counterpart of MBaS would be RoF, which, a comparable attrib levels, heals for roughly the same amount, can be boosted with the use of Divine Favor, and is generally much easier to use (preprotting and all that jazz). Word of Healing is the only semi-decent healing skill, and that is totally outclassed with powerhouses like RC and tbh ZB. There is a reason why nobody runs a pure healing bar - it so totally sucks. There is also a reason why nobody uses Rt backlines for serious play: They just don't hold a candle to decent prot monks.

The only advantage Resto has over prot is that you can cram a bit more offense into your bar (Weapon of remedy, channeling, etc) and get a bar that is fragile alone, but works decent as a runner (Where versatility and fluidity wins) or in gimmicky packs of 6. resto also doesn't have any good elites - MBaS is great, but nothing compared to RC. Expel hexes is great - but nothing compared to veil. Weapon of Warding is great, but absolute trash when compared to any semi-decent monk prot.

The real issue with Rt is stacking. You can stack 7 or 8 of them with their "meh offense, meh defense" bars, and get a team with "WTFHAX offense WTFHAX defense". If you really wanna address the problem of rt's, this stacking needs to go. Somehow. the most viable way to do this is give spawning a big, big buff (So people actually keep using it) and change resto so you need spawning to work. Oh, and, Healing prayers will suck no matter what you do. -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Because comparing a prot skill with a healing skill is harder to do for people who don't know that 100 is a bigger number than 80. People need healing, you can't make a build with 100% damage mitigation, even on perfect prot monks, and expect to win.

Also, even though people don't usually use it this way, rof gets better as the person using it gets better. That = skilled game. MBnS always has its full heal. That = FnF. The fact is that it's hard to compare restoration (a 95% healing line) with prot (a 5% healing line). Explaining it to idiots is even worse.

The point I was trying to make was that restoration is better than healing. That = not balanced. Either rit healing is OP or monk healing is UP.

You bring up the other point I was making about rits. To be an "effective" healer, rits don't need much attribute spec, so they can bring 12 channeling (or soul reaping) as well, which, again, is not balanced. ~Shard 00:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. My point is that you are comparing resto with HP, clearly when HP is total rubbish. It's invalidating your comparison. A bar with Resto has roughly 65% potency of a bar with prot. However, a bar with smiting has only 30% potency when compared to channeling. IF you want to compare lines, you need to address that.

I'd also argue that It doesn't take much skill to get that 100 heal out of RoF. What does take skill is - sorry for the awkward wording - getting the skill to cost you less attention. That is the real power of prot, you can use it to conserve your attention as a monk, so you can kite, heal (Which is pretty costly attention-wise, and why HP sucks no matter what you might do), infuse, and etc. -- NUKLEAR IIV 01:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Bottomline: HP is total shit. -- NUKLEAR IIV 01:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Which was my point, or at least half of it. I'm not saying healing is good. I'm saying restoration is better than healing, which is true (for nonelites anyway). ~Shard 01:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that if you have half a brain you can get MBaS to take off DW for +100. -- Armond Warblade 01:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

MBnS's condition removal is icing on the cake. Even if it didn't remove conditions ever, it would still be OP. ~Shard 01:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Nuklear, in which I don't think it's a problem that Rit's healing is better than Monk's healing as long as Monk's protection is better than Rit's protection. Just to make an analogy, Smiting Prayers does not have to be as powerful as an Elementalist's skill lines given how a monk is able to do its own role better than the mix of damage and utility elementalists have. Likewise, if Monks were given the role of focusing on protection (with smiting and healing as a support) and Ritualists were given the role of healing (with damage and protection as a support to said healing), I don't think it would be imbalanced....Of course, IMO it would still not be a good solution, but Ritualists lack a role right now, and turning them into healers with other things supporting said healing would at least give them a direction. Erasculio 03:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with nuklear too, but none of what either of you said is even close to my point. Rits aren't imbalanced only because their heals heal for more, but because they are allowed to do other things as a result of their healing being so easy to accomplish. Monks can't do 12 heal 12 smite and be better than a rit with 12 resto 12 channel. That's my point. If monks are "supposed to be a more defensive class" then it makes sense that they should have better overall defense than rits, which they currently do not. If you could add up power levels, rits would far outweigh monks. ~Shard 05:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This is the same problem paragons have. Though they don't really excel in any particular role, they have a little defense, a little offense, and a little utility by themselves, using up only 7 skills. When you put 8 of them on one team, they have broken offense, broken defense, and broken utility. This is why GW needs a color pie (or a profession pie). Classes that are jacks-of-all-trades should not exist. Want melee damage? Bring a warrior. Want ranged damage? Bring an ele. Want shutdown? Bring a mesmer, etc. There should not be a "want something that can do everything? Bring a rit." ~Shard 05:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Shard would you take an ele pure for damage Oo cuz i heard thats the reason invoke is baed Lilondra 07:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Healing will always be shit, no matter what you do, shard. Healing will never, ever be in the same class as prot because prot is superior by design.

HP is shit. It will stay shit until it is a) changed or b) brought to the same broken level as resto. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Shard that Rits as a whole are imbalanced. Arena Net obviously does not know what to do with them, given how their original design (turret makers) didn't work. If they were kept as the game's main healers and everything but the healing were nerfed so everything else could only support healing, then I think maybe they could be balanced (although they would become a profession that I would not have fun playing myself).

I think the idea itself of professions being jacks-of-all-trades is an interesting one, especially for GW2 (considering how the game apparently will focus on solo content), but I don't think Arena Net could pull it off without some extremely big imbalance (like what we have right now). I have no idea of how they could do it either - the best I can think of are some contrieved limits (only one shout active in a party at any given time, only one weapon spell active at any given time, etc), but those are far from being good solutions, IMO. Erasculio 16:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

youre userpage

well when is youre wiki starting ? anyway about mbas i will not disagree its fkn Broken and so is bar compression on a rit but do keep in mind that monks have a decent primary attribute and when i'm saying this i'm talking about the skills in it.Monks have WoH,hadHeal party ,had lod,have/had aegis and some other utility skills.Also they can switch to mo/e or mo/a or mo/w without having to remove decent hex removal.(not that a monk takes any besides holy veil but you get my point).YES RTS are OP yes spawning needs to be made useable and GOD !!!! IT YES THEY NEED TO REQUIRE MORE SKILL.but do keep this in mind.Lilondra 07:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Monks have more versatile siklls, but again, that's not my point. The nonelite spot heals (orison, kiss, ethereal light, whatever other ones you want to name) are complete garbage in a profession that's supposed to excel with those skills. Rits, who are NOT supposed to specialize in healing, have better spot healing than healers! It's fucking stupid, that's why people run n/rt, because they say "do I want heals that restore 100+ health and remove all conditions, or do I want a heal that restores +70 health and does nothing else?" and ofc they choose spirit shitters because they're better at spot healing. The kaolai buff didn't make things better. ~Shard 01:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

dont get me wrong youre right about that but we should keep that in mind Lilondra 08:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

You are right all the way up to the point Rit's are overpowered. That is all. --Readem 08:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Fuck off, troll. -- Armond Warblade 13:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Readem, what do you know about balance? You're not even a good player. You should really stop patrolling wiki like you matter, I think acting like a douchebag has made your ego too big. ~Shard 22:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Shard, you're still ignoring the fact that spot heals will never be good. Prot is so much superior in every respect, and I've still not seen Rt's replacing prot monks. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Spot heals may suck, but they're necessary, and when given a choice of monk spot heals vs rit spot heals, rit spot heals always win. Resto-Channel rits essentially act as two people when they shouldn't. ~Shard 22:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong again. Since you'd never need a char fully devoted to spots, you usually have either 1 prot one hybird or 2 hybirds, and they all use Healing prayers. You wanna know why? Becuase of divine favor. You seem to ignore that in any prot bar, you will have prot and divine invested already, and tossing some spot monk heals is easier and more efficient than tossing some Rt heals.

If resto was way way better than monk spots, you'd see monks going Mo/Rt to get those heals. But... they don't. Theorycrafting is nice, but ultimately irrelevant. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

But nuklear wouldnt that lock youre secondary prof ? leaving no room for gole,block stances,return,shield bash,channeling,hex breaker,.... ? besides it would have to be a lot more OP to be usefull for monks that they would drop the bonus they get from divine favor.I'm a terrible monk i admit but i wouldnt drop my way of e management (and aegis) for 20 each heal Oo Lilondra 13:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me but the only spot heals I've seen Monks use lately are Dismiss Condition, Word of Healing, and Dwayna's Kiss. Patient Spirit if you want to count that. The rest of the slots are usually GOLE and some prots. Most monk spot heals suck donkey balls. Patient is good for KDs, DK is good for epic heals, WoH is just op, and DC isn't even really used as a spot heal. I mean, there's Healer's Boon monks I guess but I don't see those very often at all. :P DarkNecrid 21:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Its not that the monks need to go M/RT to add the spot heals, they have a N/RT on the team as a 3rd healer to do that for them, but that is beside the point. I think Shard's main point is, a potentially stronger healing ability on a class that isn't intended in that role can be too much, and perhaps, should not be--or at least not to the degree it is. Since the role of monks are that of healers, Shard's just saying their spot heals should be as strong, if not a little more than a different class with utility heals is all. Another point he has with rit heals is a discussion he and I have went over several times, and it is that the majority of rit spells do so much in one spell as well...its as if all their non-elites function as an elite.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 18:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

What I don't understand about Healer's Boon: HA has an anti-enchantment metagame, yet people run a build that is solely dependent on running not just an enchantment, but an elite one. That's like running frenzied defense on your monks to counter caster spike.

Anyway, yasmin is dead on about what I was trying to say. Rit heals are not only stronger and more flexible than monk heals, they cost less attribute points to get higher numbers. The ONLY reason people still run monks for healing is for the elites, namely WoH. The biggest nonelite 5e monk heal is patient spirit, and it has a delay. MBnS heals for 10 less, and it's an instant heal that removes conditions. It's not hard to see how that's imbalanced. It's not only MBnS either, Soothing Memories is about as powerful as most monk heals, except it costs 2. Spirit Light costs 5 less than it should. Protective was Kaolai...how many 15 monk skills do you know heal the party? The two divine healings...but they don't give you 35% base damage reduction. Ghostmirror Light is just an orison that hits 2 people. I can go on, but you get the point.

However, I did find this quite funny. From the Automatic Comment Generator on the Dev Update page:

"In PvP, Spirit Bond was too readily-available when coupled with enough Energy management. We've slightly raised the recharge to limit how often it is in effect."

Let's replace two words to find out what should have been changed in that update:

"In PvP, Wounding Strike was too readily-available when coupled with enough Energy management. We've slightly raised the recharge to limit how often it is in effect." ~Shard 23:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Shard, you're still ignoring the main problem:

HEALING SUCKS MAJOR MOJO.

I hate to say this, but open OBS. Tell me how many healing monks you see (WoH is not a healing skill, just Fyi). Then tell me how may prot monks you see. Then tell me how many resto rit's you see. the ration would be 1:10:3. Prot is so much superior to everything.

We've been over this shard. Healing is shit. Resto is in the middle. Prot is not OP. Resto is not OP becuase it is better than healing. It is OP because it can go so readily with channeling. Please do not compare resto to a shit line and claim it is OP becuase it is better than a shit line. -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear, you need to run for office, or at least join the debate team. Your argumenative skills would benefit the American Government, or some Government well.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 19:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Your "First rule of game balance"

I'm here to present an argument against your so-called "first rule of game balance"

This breaks the first rule of game balance: Nothing should be outright "better" than another otherwise identical thing. ~You

First, a skill comparison between two viable skills with nearly identical functions in different attributes and professions:

Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight vs. Protective Was Kaolai:

Divine/Heaven's only heal for 60 at 15 spec and only affects Earshot range, while Protective heals for 85, affects the entire compass, gives you armor, and has the flexibility of being ashes that you drop for their effect. The only thing Divine/Heavens have going for them is a lower energy cost, but Protective is clearly better, however, teams run both of these skills in the same lineups because they run a Smiter at stand and a Rit runner. Both skills are good, one is better, but that does not matter. The Smiter has access to the weaker one, and it's worth a skill slot on his bar.

Next, a skill comparison between one viable skill, and one non-viable skill with nearly identical functions in different attributes and professions:

Reversal of Damage vs. Vengeful Weapon:

Reversal of Damage is removable, and deals damage equal to the damage prevented, while Vengeful Weapon steals a good amount of life no matter how much damage was taken. They have the same cast times, energy cost, and recharge times. Vengeful Weapon has all the advantages; In a vacuum it is better. However, the viable skill is Reversal of Damage. Teams that run a both a Smiter and a Rit have Reversal of Damage on the Smiter, but they do not bring Vengeful Weapon on the Ritualist. When the skillbars are complete, the Ritualist has better things to bring rather than VW, yet the Smiter brings RoD. In the end, it synergizes well enough with the other skills he uses, while VW has no synergy with any skills the Rit brings.

Now, a skill comparison from a different game, Defense of the Ancients.

Slayer's Laguna Blade vs. Demon Witch's Finger of Death

Two incredibly straightforward skills that are almost exactly the same. One is better, but overall both characters are viable. Laguna Blade costs 680 mana, deals 950 damage, and has a 55 second cooldown. Finger of Death costs 650 mana, deals 850 damage, and has a 55 second cooldown. Slayer's nuke is superior. Both characters see play in high level DotA. They each have 3 other skills that give them unique reasons to be picked.

If you have not played DotA, i suggest you look into it. It's a very well balanced game with high strategic depth, and plenty more examples of individual abilities that are almost identical but of different power levels, however the overall characters have other elements which balance out the individual imbalances. I could probably produce 15-20 examples from that game that support my argument, but I think I've written enough.

Frankly, GW has very few skills which can work for such comparisons. This is a good point of the game, I guess. ANET managed to create many unique skills.

In conclusion, I believe that while your rule may have some merit and is a decent basic rule of thumb, it should not be applied to single elements of a game. When small parts are combined, the product's strength is not the sum of it's parts, but how well the parts work together. --TimeToGetIntense 15:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason something breaks ur rule is either logic that only izzy understand, built on some balance issues that could be caused due to other skills in the same profession/attribute, for example

(MBaS vs Ethereal Light) probably due to enchantments and such that increase healing

(Apply Poison vs Barbed Arrows) due to "bleeding should not be easy available for rangers"

(Seeping Wound vs Conjure Phantasm) due to failure, and possible op builds where the assassin wouldn't have to add a few points in deadly or something else for a hex.

or its completly retarded that izzy and no one else understand, like

(Glass Arrows vs Scavenger's Focus) probably due to scavenger's being able on any weapon

(Lyssa's Balance vs Rip Enchantment) i really don't understand, and neither do izzy.

--Cursed Angel 16:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If you don't understand, why do you feel the need to comment? -_-; --TimeToGetIntense 17:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

its fun to write on pages --Cursed Angel 17:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Part of being "otherwise identical" is being usable in the same situations, or at least to have an equal chance of being used. It's harder to compare skills like Vocal Minority or Cure Hex to more vanilla skills because there's a "percentage chance to be useless" factor, but it can be taken into account. Zealous Benediction would have been a better example for you to use. It's the second biggest monk heal in the game, not counting infuse, but its real power comes from the fact that it's in an attribute that it cleans up for, which is why ZB is amazing in RA/TA. If ZB was a healing spell, people would laugh at it.

I was careful in my examples to only use skills in attribute lines that perform almost exactly the same. Restoration and Healing are both 99% pure push-red-bars attributes. Likewise, orison and MBnS are both fire-and-forget heals with pretty close cast time/recharges.

I am very aware that something can be stronger than another skill but still not be better, and I'm glad you do as well. The way I presented it was a very linear, simple version of the rule, that basically power levels of two things on average should come out to the same number (if you could measure them). This not only includes number values on skills, but also viability, flexibility, what it counters, what counters it, how easy/hard it is to use, and probably a truckload of other things. I just don't explain those very much because they can get pretty complex. ~Shard 00:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sims 2

Did you want me to give you a link to the sites I use for better furniture/clothes/genetics for the game or are you cool with Maxis' mismatched stuff?--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 18:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

My game crashes sometimes when I use the content installer, so I haven't tried to use any of those (although houses work fine for some reason). I use the sims resource, which has almost limitless amounts of stuff. ~Shard 22:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

My sims forum. There isn't a lot on it, but now that you're playing there will be. http://wwwrydiasims.forumarena.com/ --*Yasmin Parvaneh* 09:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Font Family

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_family_%28HTML%29 *Yasmin Parvaneh* 08:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Insults

Back off with throwing the Nazi, and Communist cards, or you are really going to offend someone, fast and very ugly things will come your way. Seriously, it's not cool, enough, now. --Wolf 14:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This "Orwellian" fear we have of offending people has become out of hand to the point of being a joke. Are people so sensitive that they cannot ignore it and move on? This isn't the playground, there is no tattling to teacher. I have no issue with someone stating to Shard "please stop your comment is out of line" or debating the reasons they don't like what he said, that is fine, as you are stating your entitled feelings and opinions, but telling that he should so so out of "fear" is indeed fascism at its finest. Fear should not withhold someone from saying what is on their minds, respect should, and that is a whole different issue. People need to realize that freedom of speech is a two way street, and even when people have opinions that differ, or are even wrong in some aspects, so long as there is a means for you to walk away, ignore or disagree with what they say, that person, wrong or not, as every right to say it.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 19:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If people want to throw around insults, go ahead, I'm not going to stop them. What I had a problem with was his choice of insults. Nazism and Communism are very sensitive issues that should not be thrown around lightly. Calling someone or a group a communist or nazi is out of line no matter who you are, and no matter the context unless it is politically linked and you have strong evidence to back-up your claim. Honestly, I think freedom of speech only goes so far, just because you can say something doesn't mean you should. There are just some things that SHOULD NOT be said. A friend of mine got put in the hospital because he was throwing around Nazi as an insult and making light of it, when he was attacked by a German man who he had deeply offended, and yes, I knew that German man, and it was next to impossible to say anything that would get to him personally. --Wolf 19:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe calling them nazi is harsh, but they are communists by definition, so I see no problem with that. If you don't like communists, don't play arenanet games. I will stop throwing nazi around tho. ~Shard 23:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

So, they are communist just because they have a rather strict policy on names? --Wolf 00:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not a policy. They ban people for putting "butt" in their name, when it isn't even in the filter or the bad names list. The only thing missing from anet's communist regime is a class system. Wait, they have one of those too. Lowest tier: People who are good at he game. Middle tier: People who suck at the game and play GW as a fad. Highest tier: Them controlling the other two. ~Shard 00:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That has got to be the most un-educated statement I have ever heard. $10 says you phailed history, if you seriously think a communist society has classes. --Wolf 00:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats a caste system not communism. — Seru Talk 00:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

srs bzns --Cursed Angel 00:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Lol ok check any dictionary or encyclopedia. Communism has a class system, it just isn't based on one. A caste system is one based on classes. Where's my $10? ~Shard 01:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

kk. The international socialist society where classes and the state no longer exist." The idea behind communism has no class system; only the corrupted application of it may. Still, the whole point is not to name-call. -- Brains12 \ talk 01:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That's the goal of communism, not what it actually is. Their class system is as follows:

Highest tier: The government.

Lowest Tier: Everyone else.

Many countries are moving away from communism because it obviously doesn't work. You can't have all the people having equal possessions if an oligarchy controls both of them. ~Shard 01:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL! You call THAT a class system? That's the way it works in any country when you get down to it. --Wolf 01:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Are we talking about Communism (capital C, examples of USSR) or communism (the philosophy, ideals, etc)? The word "communism" is sometimes thrown about to mean either. I was discussing the latter, and I think you the former. -- Brains12 \ talk 01:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is. That's how human society works. Some people are better than others. ~Shard 01:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No, what you gave as an example of a class system is just those who want power and got it, and those that don't. It has nothing to do with who is better than who. 90% of the people who are better than everyone else are content to sit back and let other people run things and risk skrewing up everyone else's lives and rule a country. --Wolf 01:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The dictionary defines communism as such:

1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state. 2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party. 3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.

The dictionary defines class as such:

1. a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits; kind; sort: a class of objects used in daily living. 2. a social stratum sharing basic economic, political, or cultural characteristics, and having the same social position: Artisans form a distinct class in some societies. 3. the system of dividing society; caste. 4. social rank, esp. high rank.

Case in point, there are class levels in communism--either government or public.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 06:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but any country that has any form of government will fall into the mold of being split into the governing body, and everyone else. Thats's hardly a class system and more of a generic. Being spilt in such a way does not make a country or group communist, hardly, it just means it has a government that does not directly include everyone. --Wolf 13:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

NO ONE CARES. -- Armond Warblade 13:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Wolf, you just got

File:User Shard Owned1.jpg

~Shard 21:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

That was more directed at the section as a whole. -- Armond Warblade 00:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Even better. ~Shard 02:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone else read or see one of the Anti-War protests Jane Fonda attended, it was before her trip to Hanoi, where she said "if people knew what Communism really was, we'd all get down on our knees and beg to be communists." Lulz--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 18:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Skills of the day

If you want the skill on your main userpage to update automatically when you manually update the skill of the day subpage, wrap the most recent entry in <onlyinclude> </onlyinclude> tags, and use the subpage as a template (i.e. put {{User:Shard/Skilloftheday}} on your main userpage). It'll only show what's in the tags rather than everything on the page. -- Brains12 \ talk 23:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it <includeonly> and </includeonly> Brains? --Kakarot 23:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No -- includeonly will not display it on the original page (i.e. User:Shard/Skilloftheday), but include it only in the page its transcluded (i.e. User:Shard). Onlyinclude works similarly, but will display it on both pages -- it'll only include what's in the tags and nothing else. For example, the community portal's Did You Know uses onlyinclude so it appears both on the portal and its DYK archive. -- Brains12 \ talk 23:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I've been wondering how to do that for the longest time. ~Shard 23:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I learned something new too XD --Kakarot 23:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What did you think of the last updates?

I remembered your list of badly designed skills when I saw the list of skills reworked (although, as expected, Arena Net didn't change most of them yet). What did you think of the August 7th and August 8th updates? I'm curious about what good PvP players think about it. Erasculio 23:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

A lot was changed, I'm still putting together a big change to my nerf list and the badly designed skill list. So far, I think from a pve point of view, things got changed for the better. Ursan isn't viable anymore, and all the pve skill ranges got bumped up a bit. Unyielding Aura is fucking awesome now, as are a few other new elite skills.

However, pvp wise, nothing got fixed, which is why I consider it a bad pvp update. I appreciate that it was mainly a pve change, so I haven't been as critical about it as I would normally be.

I think the absolutely most retarded dumbass change was to Xinrae's Weapon. Weapon of Remedy is already broken, so they took a skill that was fine (very underpowered, but fine functionally), and made it better than WoR. I strongly feel that Xinrae's needs to do what it originally did, and just have the

changed to make it usable. ~Shard  23:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Zomg

So Adrin told me about the debate last night. Adrin screen shotted Izzy saying he never heard of our friend. I have 2 friends in the alliance he claims to be in and they don't know him. I also snooped though the guild's forums and can't find him. I think its hilarious that he's so good, but they all play with us. GG. I'm going to do some more research to debunk his guild claims. They want to make me an officer, and my first objective would be a /kick for our friend.

Oh, and I saw this quote while searching for info on rawr from their interview on GW.com, I thought you might like it: "Imitate a good team. Teams should observe a top team and copy Skill usage patterns of top players. Don’t reinvent the wheel. Use the right Skill, the right amount." Yeah, thats a great way to play *sarcasm*

This is why DF is awesome, here is their quote: "They advise players not to rely on imbalanced builds or layers of passive defense and shutdown, as these won't help players improve their game. Instead, [DF] suggests using just enough defense to survive, and then slowly removing it as the team improves. Throwing Monks into builds without a lot of extra defense actually helps those Monks improve and grow stronger. They also believe that running a lot of passive defense is not a fun or honorable way to play."

--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 20:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah DF has been one of the guilds that, even though they weren't big before power-creep-buildwars, they have maintained a consistent top 10 for a very long time. I'm glad people who think like that are still in the game, they're absolutely right.

Soc was so full of shit, he even said he was in EviL, to which I responded "I know the ten people in EviL, and you're not one of them or korean."

He also pretended his main account was s executioner, and that he's never heard of me. Too bad I know s executioner and he knows me. ~Shard 17:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Does he think we're stupid? EviL and RenO were both Korean. Maybe he bought Executioner's account lol. I like when he told Adrin he was in vent with Izzy, and Izzy said to Adrin "no" roffles.com! The thing is, he should have one of them guest these other 10 accounts, I'd like to see them.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 22:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Fail@restoratiom magic.

Give me a standard high end pvp monk bar that does NOT use divine favor. the you have to use divine favor to make orison of healing just as good as mbas is just fail. Every fucking monk runs 13 divine favor.

Try comparing patient spirit at 13 hp and 13 df with mbas.

You also forgot the fact about mbas needing a spirit for actually havind the condi removal, that's 2 skills.

Fact: ALL monks carry divine favor. Who gives a fuck if mbas can outheal orison at 0 divine favor? Monks got RC, WoH, HB. And sexy shit like that which the restoration line does -not- have. Oni 15:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is that monks need 13 hp 13 df to get heals as good as a rit with 12 resto. The rit can then pump up to 12 channeling and bring DPS. The fallacy is that healing fails in a game with this much prot. -- Armond Warblade 19:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

lol oni don't run ur mouth without knowing anything about what ure arguing for or against. --Cursed Angel 20:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Oni, did you read anything past the first word of that section? 72.253.129.142 22:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is that he claims that restoration magic is better than healing prayers. Atleast that MBaS is better than all the healing prayer non elite skills, which is wrong. It's a fact that all monks carry DF. So why even make a point that they have to invest 13 df? I mean, that's like saying a rangers e management sucks because he needs to spec 13 exp when rits got OoS.

Hay armond<3Oni 12:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Oni, Divine Favor is not healing prayers. Read the section all the way to the end. Saying Divine Favor makes healing as good as resto is like saying diversion has a 1.5 second cast. It's just not true.

About your retarded expertise point: No. Rangers spend points on expertise, rits spend points, energy, and an elite skill slot on OOS. Rits get the extra healing over monks in restoration FOR FREE.

By the way, that section is a logic proof, so it isn't wrong. If you disagree with it, it's either because there's something wrong with how you think, or you live in a parallel universe where the rules of math can be changed at will. ~Shard 04:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hay Oni, Armond, Shard and perhaps Izzy (if he's, liek, looking at shards comments... Ah well wishful thinking)! Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Does it matter, shard? I get what yar point is but still: every fecking single monk in the game uses DF, So does it matter that it does better heals without?

Btw: Infuse+Patient spirit

wiki em and compare with mbasOni 14:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Oni, stop posting here until you read the whole section. You're only making yourself look worse.

I'll even spell it out for you like you're a first grader.

Monk primaries using all attributes, runes, and a hat	Rit primary or secondary using all attributes alone
Can heal as much as rits	Can heal as much and rits AND have offensive pressure or Soul Reaping at 12.

It's simple math: Rits are better. How do you not get that? ~Shard 22:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Monks use divine favor because we have too...it makes no sense to not utilize the bonus to maximize heals and do heals on Prots, as on a monk bar, and as Shard has explained 211,232,313,213,213,153,456,456,468 times are not as high without the conditional...where as you need very little in resto ro heal the same on a rit. Now can we end this topic...its above this part too.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 19:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Shard, I hate to say this, but I must: FUCK. YOUR. THEORYCRAFTING.

Rits are better than monks - show me a gvg battle between any decent guilds with Rt backliners, and I'll rest my case. Until then... no. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 08:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, umm...all of them? How many guilds run 2 monks and a rit? 90% or more? That's not including the gimmickway N/Rt hex thumpway people in the 500-2000 range run. ~Shard 10:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant backliners, not flaggers. Big comparison difference. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 10:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Those are two different jobs? Not really. The only difference is that half the time it backlines for one set of people, and half the time it backlines for another set of people. Whether or not 100% of teams run pure rit backlines doesn't have anything to do with rit heals being overpowered. ~Shard 10:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

They are very differnet jobs. Backliners are expected to perform at the stand, with the main group. Flaggers needs to be mobile and be able to quickly tend to the base/the gank/the stand. A lone backliner cannot survive alone. A flagger can (should).

Let me put it this way: If Rt heals are OP, why are monks being run at all? Why are Monks the chosen backliners? -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 10:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Prot. And hex removal. Simple.

His point is still valid. Rits heal more than monks. Monks need an assload of stuff buffed - stuff like orison and words of comfort, for example. But people run monks because they can prot and remove hexes. -Auron 12:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, his point (this quote, tbh: "It's simple math: Rits are better.") is invalid. Rts will never be as good as monks. Simple as that.

Now, restoration is better than HP, but that's not becuase restoration is OP... HP is just absolute shit (with a few exceptions) compared to anything else. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 12:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Mend Body and Soul did more than heal HP. It does what RC does, except is non-elite.

His argument has merit. Open up obs and look at any shitway-esque build (there are tons of them). Their backlines are always N/Rt - and they can bring anything from OoA to OoS to wail of doom, stuff that monks can't possibly fit on their bars. That's because rit healing is all in the non-elite skills - so, naturally, they're stronger than monk non-elites. N/Rts don't even have to sacrifice skill slots for energy, they just let soul reaping fill them back up.

I'm not agreeing with him 100% in that rits are better than monks, but a great number of PvPers agree with him or they'd be running N/Mo healers instead of N/Rt. Auron 08:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But that's a completely different issue right there. The N/Rt gimmick is a skilles build that allows for 1234 people to /win without much skill input. People run N/Rt's because, frankly, they can't run anything else. Pitting a Skilled Monk vs A skilled N/Rt (lol), there is no doubt on my mind the monk will (does) emerge superior. If, by per chance, the N/Rt required an ounce of skill, the comparison would've been different. But right now - no. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really. Rit heals heal for more than monk heals. The non-elite skills also do more than non-elite monk skills, although they're sort of conditional. I'm guessing ANet figured that because you had to have a spirit in range to get the best benefit from spirit light/MBS/spirit transfer, it was worth pumping up the numbers on the resto skills. But it could have also been just plain power creep.

Remember Shard's argument - you keep assuming his argument is a broad, sweeping statement like "ritualist healers are better than monks." If you still think that's his argument, go back and read his write-up again, because you missed it completely. He says that divine favor is a piss-poor reason to have piss-weak healing skills stay piss-weak, and is using the Restoration line as an example of what healing prayers should do.

Monks get healing prayers, which, for the most part, suck alot. Rits get restoration, which, compared to healing prayers, rock alot. Then the classes split off; monks get prot, ritualists get defensive weapons (aka, unremovable prot) and spirits. Then monks get smiting (a low-utility, low-damage and very weak attribute, with the signature elite only being used because it causes KD), which is a joke compared to ritualists Channeling (which is used, even now, as direct attacking via ritspike, and indirect damage via ancestors/splinter). Ritualist is, overall, a slightly less balanced class. However, that doesn't change the fact that monk heals are still shit compared to rit heals. There's no redeeming factor there. People run a total of one heal skill right now; Patient Spirit. Instant cast, heals for a bit, and you can pre-heal if a warrior is going in deep. The entire rest of the attribute isn't used (outside of the imbalanced non-healing skills like Spotless Mind). Ethereal light, heal other, heal area, healing ribbon, healing touch, healing whisper, orison of healing, words of comfort? Why do all of those suck, even when compared to the unused rit heals like Ghostmirror Light? :/ -Auron 12:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Monks aren't designed for red-barring, which is why their healing skills are laughable (outside of the mighty WoH) — Skakid 16:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Then why does that attribute exist at all? If it only had skills like Spotless Mind, you'd have an argument, but because a third of Monk skills are crappy redbar spells, I can't agree with you. And, if what you say is true, why does Zealous Benediction exist - an obviously redbar skill in a totally unrelated attribute? -Auron 16:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Fail@u shard. What i ment in my posts was exactly what nuke said: a monk does better heals than a rt. Sure, a n/rt healer is EASIER but that does not make it better, and seeing that i've seen you tons of times saying you constantly play in r11 teams ect, i thought you would understand. So either the part about you being so fucking amazing is fail, or you have'nt gvged in quite some time, the fact that you thought a backline monk and a runner rt was the same supports that fact :/Oni 14:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

...You're trolling, right? You're entirely too good at pretending to have no clue. -Auron 12:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

yah, i'm trolling o: stopped gw+wiki aniwai and arguing is fuwnOni 16:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

NO ONE CARES. Redbarring sucks and will suck until such time as the blockweb is eliminated, at which point N/Rts will take over for one of the monks. -- Armond Warblade 16:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Some people also run monks out of tradition and others a sense of obligation to not seem 100% gimmicky. And no, Shard hasn't GvG'd lately because its all messed up.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 16:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Monks weren't meant to red bar? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard so far on this wiki, and readem used to post here. I guess monks were supposed to be a damage class before factions came out huh? Healing is a counter for damage. Do well placed prots counter more damage than heals? Yes. Will you win with 100% prots? No.

Oni, I beg you, read the WHOLE section on my page. You're obviously getting past the heading a little bit, but you need to go to the end to understand it.

As I said before, it's a logic proof, so you're arguing against a fact. Nice joke. ~Shard 15:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, I never said rits were better than monks. They're ten times easier to play, but they're not better. Just their heals are better, of yeah, and their 14 second caster shutdown skill...monks don't have that. ~Shard 19:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't Bullshit me, shard. You've said yourself Rt's were better. A couple of lines above, and I quote "Rt!s are better". But that's neither here, nor there semantics, so I'll give that up for now...

No, fuck it all, red barring sucks. Auron, you know. Armond, you know it. Everyone knows that it so fucking totally sucks to redbar. It so totaly sucks to try and react to every single drop in every single red bar, when you could be throwing out prots with half a brain and nullify it so you don't have to heal like fcuking St. Nicholas.

I've said this before, Shard, and I'll say it again: Comparing Resto with HP is fucking stupid, because HP will always, no matter what you do with it, suck major basketballer balls. Restoration would've been the same case - Except you can hammer channeling into a bar with the resto. That's what makes it broken, not the efficiency of the healing. Fuck that - who needs healing when you could be protting?

tl;dr: Armond is right. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 17:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Except you can hammer channeling into a bar with the resto. That's what makes it broken, not the efficiency of the healing."

That's what I've been saying the whole goddamn time. Though part of it is the healing. If the rit heals were as powerful as the monk heals, people would run monk secondary on their n/rts and flaggers instead so they can bring the utility, just like people used to do before Factions. The whole point is that rit heals > monk heals, so anytime someone needs any form of healing, even just to splash it, they choose rit. Someone else'e quote: "In a suitable balanced game, players will choose what they want to play based on personal preference, not based on one thing having an inherent advantage over the other." I couldn't care less how much better prot is than healing, the point is that PEOPLE NEED HEALING IN HIGH END PLAY, and the choice guild wars gives you is "orison for 60, or mend body and soul for 96 and 2 conditions."

On a secondary level, this goes back to attribute compensations. Monk heals are lolweak because anet's rationale behind monks (as opposed to rits) is "Monks have Divine Favor." Other professions have it too. Diversion is a 3 second cast time to stop FC abuse, but no other primary profession can use diversion because of that. The primary sttributes are requirements instead of bonuses. Monks should be able to outheal rits EASILY with high divine favor, that's supposed to be their specialty. ~Shard 05:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I had a really long post written up, but it said the same thing shard did, so w/e. To summarize, prots are better than heals point for point, but when damage gets through, rits are better healers than monks. The entire healing line is simply not feasible on anything except monks because the numbers are so ridiculously low.

Part of this is due to power creep. With scythes hitting for 150 damage and adding deep wound and bleeding (every 3 seconds), why on earth would you even bother using Orison? It has been effectively power-creeped out of the entire game. It even sucks in PvE. Those skills need a buff, no matter how many superior divine favor runes you're running to try to compensate for their badness. -Auron 16:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

But healing will always suck. Until you can cram smite along with healing into the same bar and get the power a Rt has, healing will always suck becuase prot is so much better. Who needs orison or MBAS when you got RoF, preventying an upwards of 200 damage without any input at all? Who needs WoW when you can Guardian and kill melee pressure? The healing power Resto has is not important. If MBAS healed for 200 health but prevented the use of channeling, Resto would be utter shit. -- NUKLEAR ^IIV 11:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your an Idiot Shard. And thats not a personal attack, its a fact. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Starfall (talk).

No, you see, a fact is something you can prove. Can you prove I'm less intelligent than someone who forgot to sign their name and obviously doesn't know what an argument is? This isn't middle school, son, baseless insults will get you nowhere. ~Shard 22:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Nope, it is. By the way, "Idiot" doesn't need to be capitalized, "thats" and "its" should have apostrophes, you're using the wrong "Your," and "and" shouldn't begin a sentence. Also, sign. I really can't come up with a better burn than Shard's, so let me just say that you're apparently new to the concept and policies of a wiki. This isn't like the rest of the Interblag: something isn't a fact just because you say it is, good writing is expected, and the personal attacker doesn't judge his/her own comments as NPA or not. Well, that's that; time to stop feeding the troll, eh? Also, gogogo Removal of text! --חיו Chaiyo Kaldor 22:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)