Talk:Empathy

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Hold on a minute. Why was this buffed? Izzy has said on numerous occasions that they're moving away from passive skills. And this, one of the most passive skills ever. Gets a buff...

Someone please give me a good explanation. I'm getting really sick of this bullshit. >.< (Forgot to sign. Oops.) RitualDoll 19:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a short duration hex, it's active because instead of just making the warrior try and hit anyway, it forces them to make a choice as to if they should or not. This got buffed because the choice usually was "I'll attack through it, the monk can heal me in one 5 energy spell anyway." Users of frenzy keep your eyes open. --Ckal Ktak 22:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
All of that and this skill is basically SS jr., always has been. You sacrifice AoE for what was originally slightly higher single target damage and now if you happen to be a mesmer primary you can do a decent amount per hit. To be honest I love the functionality of Spiteful Spirit but if the duration was shortened and the DPH was increased to match Empathy I'd be in heaven. Empathy is actually a really nice skill. 67.191.245.177 15:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I have seen it a few times in AB now, and guess what... it is not that much of a problem. Monks can still heal you, one WoH is enough. But it finally comes at a price to attack through Empathy, and I think this is a good thing. And agree, it is SS jr.. It also buffed some Mesmer mobs in PvE and Mesmer players as well, a good thing. The massive hex hate dating back to hex-heavy metagame is exaggerated at the moment. I have not seen it used in GvG during the weekend, and I do not think it will destroy the physical attacker heavy team builds at all. --Longasc 08:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
also SS is elite and also a necro skill. they shouldn't even be compared. Roflmaomgz 03:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I think you just proved some of Einstein's ideas of the relativity of time, specifically that the future can affect the past, in that because of your cautionary message, no one compared them for 2.5 years! Wow!! | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 12:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Good Buff[edit]

An Assassin trait is to attack and kill fast, and thus Empathy does it job and with the damage increased it's even better. Keeping this skill around 50 damage, will eat away at their health in matter of seconds, if not, it's enough to "scare" them away.--ShadowFog 19:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes Sins can do a hella dmg in a mater of seconds.. thats their frikiin job. they also die like you wouldnt believe and since there primarily attackers they are vulnerable to the multitude of anti attacker skills that can in the blink of an eye shut down multiple attackers at once. there is not need to bufff this skill to twart sins, blind them criple them weaken them run away!

99.207.11.68 20:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I just think it is cool, because it makes Empathy really dangerous for assassins. Glad to see that emotionless killers had a soft spot. =) - Elder Angelus 14:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually works pretty well if you cast Spirit Shackles on the healer a few seconds previous. Occasionally, you can frighten them both off - Vik 06:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm.. on the healer? Spirit Shackles only works if the foe attacks unless your talking about Hero's battles where players make their monks auto-attack with vamperic weapons.William Wallace 19:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Dangit, brain! You know you get confused when it is late! The above mention of Spirit Shackles should be Backfire, although that trick against Vampiric sounds good, too - Vik 21:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

(indent) Empathy is great vs any melee character... it is their only way to deal damage... so they either have to slow their roll, find a way to heal while they attack, or bring a skill to remove hexes... Most warriors in particular who have no way to remove hexes in their primary and have little desire to take a skill slot against hexes will suffer greatly with this hex MrPaladin 18:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad Buff[edit]

Considering that the frequency at wich you can attack is much greater that that which you can cast spells. anti attacker skills such as these should have a much lower duration and a much lower dmg rang. and since the frequence at wich you cast spells is much less to have equivilant efectivness they should do much more dmg and last much longer... why the heck is it that every time i turn around i see boost to anti attacking skills and debufffs to attack skills and anti spell casting skills? 99.207.11.68 20:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Because physical attackers are insanely more powerful damage dealers than casters. And it is not true you know, with all the nerfs to blocking skills like Ward Against Melee and Aegis, melee got even more (undeserved imho) buffs. 145.94.74.23 06:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The professions that deals more damage are casters. Take an example of fire elemantalists and mesmers with their interrumpts skills and skils like Empathy and backfire. They can kill a melee character faster than another melee profession. In this case i agree with User:99.207.11.68. To melee professions deal damage they must get to the target and that can be prevented in many ways. So i agree when he says that should be a buff to physical attaks and a debufed to spells. Silvajef 16:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

empathy doesnt trigger on peeps using iw? BS![edit]

i dont know who put that on their but simply reading the skills description woulda told them they were wrong. But despite that i know for a fact it does trigger on IW people cause thats like my favorite elite. removing note--Justice 23:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Bug?[edit]

When I was hexed with this and I used Hundred Blades, it seemed to only trigger emapthy once, but when I had insidious it triggered insidious twice. Halogod35 User Halogod35 Sig.jpg 12:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

empathy triggers on attacks, and hundred blades is one attack, insidious trigger on hits and u hit 2 times. --Cancer Angel y so srs? 12:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
What about the fact that this effects sun and moon slash twice? Halogod35 User Halogod35 Sig.jpg 12:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
i have no idea :/ --Cancer Angel y so srs? 12:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Lol I win Halogod35 User Halogod35 Sig.jpg 19:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
GW says you attack twice with SM slash and not with HB I spose. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible functionality change[edit]

Hex Spell. For 5...12...14 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 10%...58%...70% of damage dealt. (Maximum 70 damage)
Cost: 10 energy, Cast: 2 seconds, Recharge: 10 seconds

Why? Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 15:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Because with lower damage weapon and/or without using attack skill on every hit, melee end up taking more damage. 16:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:69.150.76.241 (talk).
With the max at 70% my warrior would not stop wailing on a mesmer til he was dead... 192.203.160.241 16:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Maximum damage limit can be adjusted but I think percentage damage should be incorporated. 69.150.76.241 16:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like... PI? Owait, people use Empathy in PvE. You do realize that the main reason for Empathy (outside of gimmick arenas like RA) isn't to shutdown melee, but to put more pressure on monks (no decent player let's one skill put him/her out of the game, one of the reasons why VoR was broken). Your proposal pretty much makes axe warriors useless for an infinite amount of time (apart from splits) and barely affects hammers. Keep the great suggestions coming! Moo Kitty 16:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Related skills[edit]

Backfire and Visions of Regret? How are those similar in any way other than punishing for an action? Might as well put in every nuke spell, those punish for an action too. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 19:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, we don't need to stretch the truth; nuke spells have nothing to do with "punishing for an action". But I agree that the relationship is tenuous. Removing a couple. | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 19:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
It's not really stretching anything, tbh - nukes punish for balling/grouping and standing still. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 03:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
That's not why I use nukes though ;) i.e. I would use nukes to kill my enemies regardless of what they were doing | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 03:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
You wouldn't kill them if they were moving, though. :D -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 03:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The difference is that these skill punish for doing something (attacking, casting, etc.) while nuking punishes for NOT doing something (i.e. not moving). 145.94.74.23 10:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
By now it's quibbling, but unless I have no idea how to play the game, or nuke means something different here than in most games, nuking isn't "punishment" for anything! :P | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg | 15:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Nukes punish you for casting and attacking and standing. Unless you stop doing anything and start moving, you are being "punished." On a side note, WW punishes you for the action of waiting. It's fo'real. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 22:59, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I notice we are not using the same definition of "punish", which in my version uses an element of "backlash", "retaliation", or "dealing consequences for an action" -- if you agree that nukes don't do that (especially the last one), hurray; if you don't agree, then one or both of us doesn't understand the game D: | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg | 02:25, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree that nukes do not backlash or retaliate in most cases, but they definitely deal consequences for an action. Unless "standing" lost its status as a verb. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 16:02, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
That depends on whether "breathing" is something you consciously do most of the time... ;)
Though it's true that in a competitive game, doing nothing could be a game-deciding "action"... | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg | 17:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
But punishing for a partially involuntary action is still punishing for an action (as opposed to punishing someone for circulating blood, breathing and standing can be done consciously and can be avoided). In the case of standing being a game-deciding action, you have to stand in order to cast spells or attack. :P -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 17:39, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
72 was dead-on the very first reply. If your going to exaggerate an example to sarcasm a point then at least keep it comparing apples and oranges instead of bicycles and garbage trucks. Justice 11:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I have merely stretched a comparison - in that nukes are area effects that can be moved out of, but not ended, while hexes stick and can be ended. Same ends, different means. I would say it's more like comparing a cardboard box to a paper bag. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 18:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Epic. You managed to convince yourself that your thin arguement was right when two people were saying you were being rediculous. Justice 10:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ruined Spell[edit]

They ruined a good defensive (and offensive!) Mes spell with this round of nerfs. Disappointed with this one. :(218.40.186.9 22:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)Ryoko

OMG, they kept original functionality with the PVP version. Why was this nerfed???218.40.186.9 22:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)Ryoko
...it wasn't nerfed. -- Tha Reckoning 04:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
facepalm.jpgHarrier C. Goodman talk 18:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Shame.jpg tbh. -~=Ϛρѧякγ User Sparky, the Tainted guided sig.png (τѧιк) 23:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


Order of Description[edit]

Just noting that the skill description is essentially reversed from what the in-game description is; the damage reduction is listed first in-game whereas on wiki it's listed second. 68.104.204.103 06:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Is there any way you could transcribe both the regular and concise descriptions from the game here, or on the article page? G R E E N E R 06:32, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Empathy is Over powered needs a function change![edit]

Okay since we all know empathy is SIMPLY overpowered (Along with Backfire)Im gonna suggest the following function changes:

Empathy : 10e// 2s//10r Effect: Everytime Hexed Foe attacks, The attacker takes 10...40..55 Damage. If the attack lands successfully, You also take 10...20..35 Damage.

Explanation : Simply put, the word empathy means when YOU ARE IN PAIN, SOMEONE ELSE FEELS YOUR PAIN. So having such an effect makes sence, and leaves it LESS overpowered, and an interesting gameplay change.

Also With Backfire it should be the same, except the damage taken is much less:

30...120...140. When spell is successfully cast, you also take 10...30..50 Damage.

To me this makes sence.

It also makes the skill basically useless--TahiriVeila 04:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Except they don't make sense. The reason Empathy is a Hex is because you're applying it to an enemy. As you said, feeling the pain of someone else. Namely, the person the hexed target is attacking. Same with Backfire. You don't inflict damage by being empathetic, you inflict it by forcing your enemy to. And it isn't overpowered, there's plenty of counters. Especially since you posted on the PvE page and with PvE numbers, so you don't seem to be talking about PvP. You can bring 7 heroes now-just give one of them Expel Hexes or something if you're so terrified of Empathy.
I also have to point out the hilarious fact that your version of Empathy would effectively give melee enemies a massive buff when attacking you. And your scaling numbers aren't even close to linear. ¬ «Ðêjh» (talk) 05:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh great.. A hammer warrior would then be able to come up to me and be like. "Smack! 100 damage from the hammer, knock down, weakness and an extra 35 damage from the empathy hex.. And all it has to take is 50 damage.." OH JOY!!! Because that sounds fair.--Yozuk 21:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Dont see any sense in while doing damage to the attacker it prevents damage to the target. A skill like this should be a elite skill and not a ordinary skill who can be used again before it ends on the target. Beside its energy costs aren't to high for casters. It should lose the damage reduction efects. Silvajef 16:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible Bug/Anamoly[edit]

Might be my missing it somehow or not fully understanding game mechanics, but heroes (Gwen in my case) won't cast this on some physicals. I've noticed this on Root Behemoths (just tested), Furnace Guardians, and Flame Djinns (the latter two in Sorrow's Furnace). Lord Flynt 17:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I haven't checked the specific Warriors you mention, but I don't remember empathy ever sitting unused in Sorrow's Furnace or the Falls, i.e. I'm pretty sure that the AI does use Empathy on those foes (but I could be misremembering).
There are any number of reasons why heroes might not be casting a spell.
  1. The AI determines martial/caster based on equipped weapon, e.g. it won't cast Chaos Storm if the target is wielding a spear (so perhaps it won't cast Empathy on some foes unless they use an actual sword/spear/dagger/etc, which perhaps some of the foes you mention do not).
  2. The AI uses an order of priority that causes some behaviors unexpected by human players: monks will not cast UA first immediately after being rez'd; they'll try to cast some quick heals first (using their post-rez reduced energy pool). → Check out what other skills your Gwen is using instead; maybe she's choosing stuff that the AI thinks will be more effective against the named foes (or their allies).
  3. Similarly, the AI behaves differently depending on what's happening during combat: it chooses somewhat different priorities depending on its guard/attack status, if the battle is going well/poorly, if there is a single foe or multiple foes, if a target is called/not, etc.
For the moment, how about if you post Gwen's skillbar (and how's she's spec'd), which might suggest a minor skillbar change. You might also try disabling other skills of hers (that will test whether the issue is true non-use or just low prioritization). If that doesn't result in the desired behavior, I'm sure some of us can do some further testing (perhaps on foes that are closer to an outpost). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Of possible interested might be the test results without any skills equipped except empathy. User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 18:58, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Which should be the same as if you disable all skills except Empathy (although, I suppose it's possible that the AI might behave differently in the two cases). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:35, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind responses. Okay, waited for the Forgeman to be the ZB and ran it 10 times today. For each batch of Furnace Guardians and Flame Djinns, I blocked Gwen's use of all skills except Empathy and she still didn't use it on these foes. Perhaps its Norgu's skillbar that's making her wand or maybe she's just copping a 'tude for bocking her Visions of Regret. Anyone else experiencing this? (Not sure how to post a visual of the skillbars I'm running or I'd add them here,) Lord Flynt 00:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)