Feedback talk:User/Rathalosbeneteau/Additional Elite slots

So what do people think? With all the creatures; especially in Winds of Change, Double elites would help a lot by opening up Build avenues that definitely weren't there before. Areas that are far to Over-powered like WoC Minister Cho's Estate would become slightly easier, due to the ability to use better, smarter skill combos.

Smart combo's are needed against the Scavengers of Minister Cho's estate (post-WoC)

Now lets face it, the scavenger groups are so closely knitted together that without EXTREMELY careful pulling, you become overrun by several groups of 6. Combine that with your limited party size of 4, the scavenger Witchs and Soulbinders keeping a constant flow of minions and spirits going, their Chaplain's healing most damage, conditions and hexes you use, and all the other scavengers (beastmaster builds, shutdown builds, warrior builds, etc etc) smashing you to bits, and you have an impossible task ahead of you.

Areas like this REQUIRE the best skills, armor, and weapons to be able to overcome them. Limiting players to 1 elite prevents them from using their BEST skills, limiting them to just 1.

So, can I get feedback from users? Rathalosbeneteau 05:59, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Would be nice but a little op not something i see happening, but if it did they would have to be difficult to obtain not just from day one. Say a difficult quest of somekind thats only available after completing a campaign which then allow you to use 2 elites for that campaign only, would have to do the same for the others, no need for two elites going through nm. --Dinsy 11:48, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

yeah, i see your point. A quest type thing after beating a campaign would be a cool idea to get the double elites.. the quests could involve nerashi or Egil Fireteller (nerashi has 3 elites, egil has 2).. One of them (probably Egil due to his accessibility from all campaigns) could carry 4 quests (1 for each campain + EotN) and the quests would only appear after you've beaten the prerequisite campaign. To get the benefit in all campaigns promotes cross campaign travel to beat the others. And yeah, the double elite benefit could only affect HM when you get it to prevent too much OP-ness in normal mode..

Rathalosbeneteau 15:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Too much work to balance skills. There's many easy areas in GW, even in HM. Those would be outstandingly boring. Defy Pain warrior with 100 Blades / Warrior's Endurance? SoS ritualist with Signet of Ghostly Might / Ritual Lord? Icy Veins + Discord necros? O_o - Ander01 13:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

warriors aren't really to effective in pve anyways unfortunately.. i know through playing one. they can withstand most anything but the damage they do is insignificant compared to others, and other classes (ele and sin) can tank better. So warrior wouldn't be too OP'd.. SoS with SogM would indeed make the spirits more potent, allowing them to do more damage before they are murdered (which can happen surprisingly fast). As for the Necro IV + Discord, yeah, that's powerful, but most of the buffed groups in WiK and WoC can easily protect from hexes and conditions.. discord doesn't work too well there, nor does it work to well in many other places that have hex/condition removal.

As for being boring; if you've already beaten the game, generally most people aren't motivated to beat it again in hard mode.. a title isn't much motivation to go through the hard work required. Using 2 elites makes things more interesting.

All in all if people found that it was too easy, areas could have more enemies put in hard mode could they not? and the double elite concept IS mainly for just having fun, and being able to have more freedom with stronger builds; cause lets face it; after you beat the game, all you really care about is having fun and killing things.

24.57.170.238 17:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Such a thing isn't needed since WiK and WoC are balanced to the lvl of the current players. What you should be asking instead is one of the Purity guys to assist you in those areas like the Shining Blade does in WiK. Da Mystic Reaper 20:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

WoC content isn't balanced in the slightest. All creatures are higher levels, in extremely large, very close knit groups, and use meta skills + the afflicted using their own unique skill per profession. That, along with smaller party groups in some areas makes WoC pretty difficult and almost impossible in some cases without the best skills. WiK was less Op'd than WoC, but is still relatively difficult. Anyways, the concept of this was made from my own thoughts after seeing bosses and npc's with more than 1 elite skill. I find the WoC content too difficult, but i've beaten the rest of the game. I started getting bored with the builds I have and thought how great it would be to be able to use more in HM like Nerashi, egil and several bosses to cure boredom, kill things, and make WoC slightly easier. I am aware that allowing 2 elites would make builds a lot stronger, that's why i only suggested it for PVE and later added on (after the first comment on here) that it should only be for HM.

Rathalosbeneteau 03:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

WoC too difficult? The only quest that is really troublesome is Cleaning Haiju Lagoon but that's about it, i found the first part a good challenge but no where near difficult let alone impossible to do. Here is my advice for you: learn to adept your skills and your heroes to the enemies you are going to fight and learn from your failed attempts, look at what caused the failure and adjust your team to prevent it from happening next time. If you take the correct heroes and give them the right builds you can complete it without too much difficulity. Oh yeah don't take PvX meta builds since WoC enemies are designed to counter it all, find your own team build that works. A common cause of failure in WoC is the mistake of relying on PvX builds and Noobway eh i mean Discordway. If you still can't manage it i got all of the hero builds that i used to clear WoC (and the rest of the game) on my page for people just like you. Da Mystic Reaper 11:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

the WoC content isn't difficult perse, so much as the content after it's gone while trying to vanquish.. Particularly in Shing Jea. I've vanquished areas all through the game with no trouble using my own builds that i'd develop for the area (i don't like wiki build too much) and developing builds for WoC had me stumped. The creatures of WoC have heavy melee counter, enchant, condition and hex removal and have very efficient healers. Besides, I'm not the only person who's claimed WoC is OP'd. The feedback page is littered with suggestions toning WoC down due to the difficulty. My idea is the opposite. Instead of toning WoC down, double elites would buff the players.

Rathalosbeneteau 14:56, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at this makes the idea seem really fun! I beat the games and would love to be able to kill things with the diverse builds that i've thought of using multiple elite skills. It'd be a good idea for it to only affect HM and Egil Fireteller would be a great NPC to carry these quests (and possible use other NPC's for the different regions that act like egil just in case people don't have EotN) This content would make hard mode gameplay so much more fun. I feel so constrained only being able to use 1 elite when i see several that i'd like to use that would work well in my build. Kudos to you Rathalosbeneteau for posting this! :D I REALLY hope that the GW team implements this at some point, especially seeing as with GW 2 being promoted and coming out eventually, most GW players will be on there instead of GW1 I think, making the game slightly more boring without fun implements like this one :D

24.57.4.122 21:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Hahaha, glad u'r so enthusiastic about the topic :P I agree with the frustration on choosing only a single elite while several would work well together.

Rathalosbeneteau 18:19, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

If everyone here is serious about additional elite slots, then the PvE-version of the game should follow the 3-slot limit that Capture Signets and all PvE-only skills follow, that way hard-choices whould force trade-offs between Elites and overpowered PvE-only skills. --Falconeye 18:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Interesting addition to the criteria, which also acts as a decent limiter. I like that idea for elites to count towards the 3-slot PvE only skill limit for multiple elites.

Rathalosbeneteau 19:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Altough i would really like the option for multiple elites in one bar i still strongly oppose it. The only reason you give is some strong mobs in only a part of WoC you find too hard to do, and is a reason i find weak. The offered sollution to it is something that can be concidered a joke. You completely ignore the effects that it will have on the balance of the already due to skill buffs imbalanced PvE and PvP both. Increasing the ammounts of elites you can take would mean all high-end areas would be plundered and the game will be nothing more than a joke as the balance between skills will be completely destroyed by it. Skills and the game in itself has been balanced around the power of one elite skill and increasing it to 2 completely destroys that balance. Yes it makes you stronger and increases build options but you completely ignored the disastrous results that it will cause to the game. Because of this and the weak reason you give this suggestion of yours simply cannot be taken seriously. Don't feel to offended but this just is not the sollution to the difficult areas of WoC. And if you say that NPC's can use 2 elites so why can't we have 2 then remember this; NPC's only have 8 available skills to use but players have 1319 skills to use. Da Mystic Reaper 20:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

What Damysticreaper said; combo's such as these will break the game challenge/balance.

• Healing Burst + Healer's Boon + Unyielding Aura
• Pious Renewal + Wounding Strike + Avatar of Dwayna
• Destructive Was Glaive + Echo + Clamor of Souls

--Falconeye 22:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

actually falconeye, i wasn't proposing to be able to use 3 elites, just have the 2 count towards your 3 pve slot maximum. as for high end areas being farmed, they already are by extremely experienced players, this would just make that faster and make it so that inexperienced players could actually have a chance at getting through them. Anyways, the main idea was to create more fun for killing things with the add on of getting through WoC, but seeing as all that is happening is that this idea is being torn at, i guess users wouldn't find this fun.

Rathalosbeneteau 02:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

If it's in a PvP specific arena with random teams then it would not matter since it would not impact gameplay and will be just for fun, heck you could even remove yoe elite skill limit entirely if it's just for a pvp arena. But if you just wanna have fun with multiple elites in one bar make a suggestion for a pvp arena instead. Da Mystic Reaper 10:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this idea would break the game. WoC honesty isn't worth radically altering how player builds work. /Against.--Will Greyhawk 22:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

No, please; there's really no need

I think this is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. WoC and WiK introduced some difficult challenges, but builds like these suggest that there's no need to give toons additional advantages. Advanced toons have access to overpowered PvE-only skills (e.g. Summon Spirits or Pain Inverter) that are often more useful than similar elites. There are plenty of consumables, including summoning stones, which also buff party strength beyond that available to foes.

I'm sympathetic to a point with players who have trouble with Beyond, but I think a better solution would be finding in-game ways to make them aware of ways to raise their play-style to meet the challenges rather than providing new advantages. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I see no need for this suggestion and the amount of effort required to rebalance all of the elites in order to keep them from being imba (as they are currently balanced with the thought that they will not be used together, unless to give players a challenge. Note: in all games as you progress the game gets harder, WoC and WiK are post-end-game and thus are expected to be the hardest. Giving NPCs two elites to fight PCs (and their PvE-only skills, some of which are as strong as elites without actually being them) is fair game. Especially when you also take into consideration the fact that people are smarter than the AI. Konig/talk 22:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)