Feedback talk:User/Tha Reckoning/Weapon Spells

Preparations are impossible to remove, so they are fundamentally broken. Your logic, not mine. Dark Morphon 15:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Omfg, you even have the same stance on Xinrae's Weapon as Shard does! Dude, you're the most shameless Shard copy I've ever seen violating the wiki. Dark Morphon 16:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Preparations don't influence the outcome of a match nearly as much as weapon spells do, unless you're talking about choking gas, but even then, it's not close. There's a difference between unremovable, uninterruptible prots, healing, and damage, all rolled into one free spammable spell, and a preparation that causes disease for a few seconds. Stop nitpicking and stick to the issues. Have you considered the fact that Shard is probably correct? I notice you haven't countered the stance at all, so I'm assuming you're just pointing that out to draw attention from the fact that you only disagree because you don't seem to like Shard very much. -- Tha Reckoning 17:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Shouts, Chants, Echos, Some Signets, Skills, Pet Attacks, Forms, Wards, Traps, Wells, Item spells, Preparations, Glyphs - "cannot be removed, and thus are fundamentally broken." -Talamare- feedback 21:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, no points made, so that doesn't even warrant a response. -- Tha Reckoning 21:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

If you dont see the point, youre idiot... Im done here -Talamare- feedback 21:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, points are made by referencing things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and then insulting someone when they call you on your bullcrap. You have all the necessary drawbacks to lead humanity! Fire up the doomsday machine. -- Tha Reckoning 21:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll do some analysing here. Xinrae's Weapon is nothing more than Reversal of Fortune with some damage strapped on. Unlike Vengeful Weapon, it actually protects you against damage. If this skill didn't deal damage, it would be slightly inferior to Reversal of Fortune because Reversal is affected by Divine Favor, creating slightly more healing in almost every case. It should be noted that when used on someone that already had a Weapon Spell, the old one is removed which means it's counterproductive with other ones. It should also be noted that Reversal of Fortune's short duration and recharge make it not worth it to remove, making the whole irremovable argument obsolete. The question that remains is whether removing 2 conditions, having 1 second less recharge (Life Sheath) and giving more health could be considered equal to dealing ~75 damage. I think it's clear that this is at best a skill that comes quite close to Life Sheath, but is still inferior to it. Dark Morphon 11:22, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Concerning Preparations, this was merely to show irremovable mechanics aren't fundamentally broken in every case like you claim it to be. Dark Morphon 11:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Protting a 130 damage hit from lightning strike down to 30, and stealing 76 health behind it, and then reprotting 3 seconds later, for no cost, isn't better than healing for 75 of that damage with RoF? What world do you live in? The preparations argument is again, useless, because preparations don't nearly affect the outcome of a match the way weapon spells do, preparations' effects are worth 5 energy and a decent recharge. No three spell combo can do what xinrae's does with 1/3 of the efficiency that it does, so it is definitely worth a lot more than 5 energy on a 3 second recharge that is non interruptible. The irremovable argument is not obsolete, because of warmonger's and weapon of warding. Seriously, this child's play stuff is getting really old. -- Tha Reckoning 12:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Two things here. One, I agree with shard and reckoning - in terms of comparing skill vs skill, xinraes and vengeful and one or two others are simply ridiculous. They aren't a huge problem, however, because rits in general are a broken (as in, not working) class. If they were viable healers (had more emanagement, had more hex removal, were more mobile) then weapon spells' superiority would be much more obvious. As it stands, they're rather sub-par healers outside of N/Rts in tombs, so the spells don't have a chance to show themselves off. -Auron 13:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I compared Xinrae's Weapon WITHOUT the damage to Reversal of Fortune, not with it. Of course Xinrae's Weapon is more powerful than a non-elite, that's not what's being argued. Secondly, the odds of Lightning Strike hitting for 130 damage are next to zero, I have seen very few skills that are capable of such a thing. In fact, it will usually be around 40-50 damage, sometimes getting a peak at 100 or so damage. But let's assume 130 damage is right. In that case, Reversal of Fortune prevents 75 damage, heals for 75 health and an additional 30-35 from divine favor, totalling +50 health. Xinrae's Weapon reduces the damage to 30 and steals 75 health, resulting in a +45 heal. That's 5 health more for Reversal of Fortune on a 2 second recharge. I realise that Xinrae's Weapon also deals damage but since it's an elite it should be stronger. Point is, Life Sheath prevents even more damage (resulting in 20 damage reduction and 20 healing) and ALSO removes Conditions. I was wrong. LS is actually leagues better than Xinrae's Weapon in your situation. Look, I don't mind if you want to use unrealistic numbers to support your arguments, but at least get the calculations right. Concerning Preparations, that is just a concern of power and designing things well. It's possible to balance irremovable effects which is shown by Preparations. A broken mechanic, skill or whatever is defined as something that is impossible to balance. Since being irremovable doesn't automatically mean it can't be balanced, your first sentence is wrong and should thus be changed. Concerning your next sentence, what on earth are you talking about? Xinrae's Weapon only affects one blow, unlike a lot of other skills. If you want to compare it to something that's fine, but compare it to a similar skill. Concerning irremovability, I was specifically talking about Xinrae's Weapon here for which it is indeed completely irrelevant as it only affects only one packet of damage. The other two skills are completely different and I'm willing to discuss these if you want but before that, please stay on topic. Dark Morphon 13:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

One thing I do agree with is that Xinrae's Weapon and its near skills are a lot more stupid than Reversal and its near skills because they don't require you to pick the right package of damage to prevent but just have nearly the same effectiveness regardless of that. That however doesn't mean Reversal is inferior, it merely means it's harder to use. Dark Morphon 13:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Were there any points made in there? I didn't see anything you haven't already said, which I have stricken down. -- Tha Reckoning 02:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

You haven't struck anything down, you have merely answered my calculations with a question that didn't answer the point whatsoever, especially since in your example you didn't mention the fact that Reversal of Fortune also counters 75 damage. Since apparently you are too stupid to do these on your own, I acted like a nice guy and calculated these numbers for you. If you had paid any attention at all, you'd see that Life Sheath heals for 45 more health AND removes 2 Conditions in your situation, as opposed to dealing some damage. I don't know about you but I'd prefer removing two conditions (which give you an immense amount of versatility and bar compression as well) over dealing damage at a random moment (which barely helps at all, except for gank situations). To be exact, Xinrae's Weapon only has more net health gain with damage packets over 145 and below 20 damage. In all other cases (which is, about, 99% of the time) Life Sheath heals more. I'll finish this post with a question like you put up earlier: Having more net health gain and removing two Conditions isn't better than dealing damage to a random foe at a worse recharge while healing for less? What world do YOU live in? Dark Morphon 10:49, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course, prot monks always have much more versatility than restoration rits. Thats why prot monks have to spec into two attribs to get the effect of a rit who specced into one. It doesn't matter that a random prot elite heals for more and removes conditions, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I really don't give a damn about life sheath, other than the fact that you can remove dazed from yourself with it, which is annoying. You keep insulting me and proving nothing with your idiocy. I'll answer your dumbass question, then: for virtually the same result, with offense, protting, and healing, for 5 energy, on a 3 second recharge, with a non interruptible spell, for half the attribs, no, having more net health gain and removing two conditions is not better. -- Tha Reckoning 17:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually he didnt insult you, You insulted him, You didnt actually "stricken down" anything, you just dismissed it and insulted him...... Dark Morphen just give up, He is like talking to a toddler (thats a compliment reckoning, really) -Talamare- feedback 00:43, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Talamare you've already proven to everyone you have no idea what you're talking about. Do yourself a favor and stop talking shit. -- Tha Reckoning 00:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Reckoning you've already proven to everyone you have no idea what you're talking about. Do yourself a favor and stop talking shit. byes now -Talamare- feedback 01:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is that not surprising. -- Tha Reckoning 02:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Because you are probably the most idiotic user on the whole wiki? The only person that ever called Bathory and Talamere stupid on this wiki is you. However, nearly everyone I have seen discussing things with you calls you stupid. Couldn't it be that you are the idiot here and that you have no idea what you are talking about? Had you considered that? Your answer is complete and utter nonsense. If you claim that any skill combination of 3 skills that you can think of can only achieve one third of the effectiveness of Xinrae's Weapon and I can provide you with a skill that does the same and is better at it and you have no way of answering any of the points I made you have to admit you're wrong and change your opinion. It seems odd to me that you claim there is a skill that is better than any Protection Prayers skill and when I provide you with a skill that actually is better AND in the Protection Prayers line it is suddenly irrelevant and misses the point. If that's not the point, what is? Of course, you can't think on your own and merely follow Shard's opinion like a sheep. I think you don't know what "net health gain" means. Net health gain is the amount of health minus the amount of damage dealt plus the amount of damage prevented. What does this mean? This proves that Life Sheath is better at protecting and healing than Xinrae's Weapon is. You also use the low cost, cast time and recharge as an "argument" even though Life Sheath has EXACTLY the same cost and cast time but has a LOWER recharge, further making it superior. Concerning "having" to spread into two attributes: worthless argument since the Monk doesn't spec into Divine Favor to make Life Sheath more effective, it specs into that attribute to enhance its entire effectiveness on every skill it takes. Having to spec into two attributes can only truly be called a downside if it reduces your overall effectiveness. Since Monks are used purely as backliners in HA and since Divine Favor increases the effectiveness of every skill on the Monk's bar enhances that role it's not an argument that holds any truth whatsoever. Primary Ritualists don't get anywhere near the effectiveness of a Monk when used as a backliner as they can't deal with conditions, hexes and spikes as well as Monks can. If they would, you'd see them used and as it stands, they just don't. Ritualist heals are however very easy to use and require only speccing into a secondairy attribute. It's therefore that you ocassionally see them used in gimmicks on Necromancers and Elementalists because of their superior energy management, which makes it a lot easier to play. They are however still inferior to a skilled Monk because of their inferior abilities to deal with Conditions, Hexes and spikes. Dark Morphon 09:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Btw if you use Reversal of Damage instead of Reversal of Fortune the comparison to Xinrae Weapon actually becomes much closer -Talamare- feedback 10:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Reversal of Damage protects and deals damage, Reversal of Fortune protects and heals, Vengeful Weapon heals and deals damage. Xinrae's Weapon is unique because it does all those three things in a way. Dark Morphon 10:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

If you call the 5% cap dmg on xinrae its elite "bonus", the difference between RoD and Xin is that RoD only truly lasts for 1 hit (so it can prevent a little or a lot), but the amount you heal from Xin potentially lasts more hits (ie the next 10 damage packets you take do 8 damage each, Xin then effectively prevented 10 hits) ........... Edit - Tho I dont want to continue a debate for just Xin, since this page was made to encompass every single weapon spell, I think we need some deep compelling insight from Reckoning about every single weapon spell -Talamare- feedback 10:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Come again? Xinrae's Weapon only reduces the damage from one packet of damage. Dark Morphon 15:43, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

ya'll quit bitchin, there are enough personal attacks on this page to ban you guys for a week. just chill out. -Auron 11:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Thx Auron. In any case, I'm not wasting my time trying to show you the flaws in your ways of thinking anymore, as it's like talking with a wall. -- Tha Reckoning 13:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

If only you had shown flaws in my thinking. In fact, you did not do any such thing. Dark Morphon 15:43, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Last warning. Reckoning, stop being dumb. That tactic only works if you're right to begin with. Morphon, stop being trolled. -Auron 16:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Auron. Dark Morphon 16:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

DM, I meant up there, Remove the 5% hp dmg cap for a second, lets say youre at 300/600 and someone uses Xin on you, That will put you at 380/600, the next 10 packets of damage all did 8 damage, so after those 10 youre back to 300 hp, you could say that Xin effectively prevented those 10 packets... RoD on the other hand since it only actually "prevent" and doesnt heal at all its only truly effective for a single packet -Talamare- feedback 18:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

What are the odds of constantly getting 8 damage packets? As far as I'm concerned, average damage is roughly 30-50. Dark Morphon 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

If you are talking about balancing weapon spells, why skip the most rediculous of them all? For that abomination of a skill, being unremovable is a big issue Koda Kumi talk 15:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Sir Reckoning gave Xinrae's Weapon as an explanation, so I figured I'd discuss about that first. Concerning Warmonger's Weapon, it indeed needs a rework. Dark Morphon 16:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

xinraes is far more broken than warmongers will ever be. -Auron 03:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I consider RoF with damage and unremovable Dazed about equally broken. Dark Morphon 16:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Unremovable

OK, getting away from the huge arguement, the unremovability of weapon spells is clearly a problem - look at the WoW nerf 'cos it was being used on Ghostlies, and look at the way all weapon spells got subsequently nerfed on all non-rit primaries. Why not just add some counters? Dulled Weapon is just crying out to nullify weapon spells, and could use a buff anyway, and with a few other such skill changes, weapon spells would suddenly become less reliable. Of course, not wanting to make this game even more "Build Wars"y, the implementation would have be careful or you'd force all teams to carry a counter too. Thus, no Ignorance for weapon spells, but some sort of counters could be good. 188.74.101.228 19:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Think about it. Niche counters are almost never worth taking. If countering Weapon Spells would be viable you would just create two different mechanics that have an equal effect, meaning you have to take counters for both. Not desirable as it decreases the amount of skills that actually take skill to play in use and indeed increases build wars. You could of course let Enchantment removal skills remove Weapon Spells as well. But if you do that, what's the point in having two different mechanics as they are going to be countered in the same way anyway? Not desirable. Conclusion? Adding counters is not a good way to fix Weapon Spells. They need careful balancing and a simple solution like making them removable in some way is not going to fix them AND let them be a unique function. Dark Morphon 16:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

WoW should've gotten 25% block and 5e cost. NuVII 20:30, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I think they need a mechanic something like what happened to Watch Yourself. For example, WoW ends after X incoming attacks. As for Xinrae's/Wep of Remedy/Vengeful Wep, a functionality needs to be picked. For Xinrae's, I would do, for X incoming attacks, damage is reduced to 5%, with about an 8-10s recharge. Wep of Remedy, for X incoming attacks, each attack heals for X, something like 20 max, and removes a condition, 8-10s recharge. Vengeful, you steal X health per incoming attack, something like 20 max, for X incoming attacks, 8-10s recharge. -- Tha Reckoning File:User Tha Reckoning Sig2.jpg 22:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, counters (especially niche ones) are not a perfect solution, but they're better than nothing. Currently people have to put up with uncounterable weapon spells anyway, so I'm not sure they'd feel obliged to take counters if there were some, especially if they were done well. It's kinda like stances - they *can* be countered by Wild Throw/Blow/Strike or Whirling Axe, but these are rarely taken in most areas. Since WoW isn't even taken on all teams after the nerf anyway, I don't think everyone would staple a counter to their bar if it existed. But if you did have one, it would be nice against somehting like RSpike with 4 unremovable long-duration Brutal Weapons. 188.74.101.228 15:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)