Talk:Illusion of Pain

If the hex is recast before it's removed, does the healing still happen? Like how reusing Battle Rage still makes you lose all energy? Or does it avoid the drawback, like with Fleeting Stability? 71.179.85.164 09:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

If you recast it before it has finished then they do not get the healing (and the amount of health they will get back at the end is reset) -- The Great Tomato 09:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

the degen is 200 total right? and 150 regen?--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:76.26.189.65 (talk). 10:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Assuming all goes well. — ク Eloc 貢 15:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If the hex is removed prematurely (due to hex removal), is the foe healed or does it have to run its course completely? --Eyekwah 10:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Just when it is removed according to the skill description. — ク Eloc 貢 02:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just tested this skill with Scourge Healing. The healing caused by IoP doesn't trigger Scourge Healing at all... Morrock 01:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

no, because it health gain, and not healing, which should trigger scourge healing --64.229.76.72 03:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Scourge Health Gain. Paddymew 05:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong.Neither Scourge Healing nor Soul Bind does not proc with illusion of pain, not because the skill says 'health gain' (when it actually heals; the proof is in the reduction by deep wound or lingering curse), but the fact that it's the hex that is the healer; There's simply no target that can take SB's or SH's damage.--96.28.30.12 06:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

96.28.30.12 is correct. On a side note, the simple fact that at least one person made a mistake about it indicates that some objective informations about a skill that some find overpowered is missing in the article. But who are we, us scum users, to dare and add some infos and disambiguations for interested people. Even if we dont do it the right way, more experienced users should correct us. In the video game industry, we call it informations retention. Because we want the obvious to stay obvious for everyone, not just some selected people. This is one of the aspects of the wiki experts that led Izzy to stop collaboration on certain projects. Yseron - 90.9.250.96 18:18, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It's because skills used by your team cannot damage your team. I.E., casting Scourge healing on someone will not hurt you if you use Heal Area on them. Likewise, using Reversal of Damage on a minion and then making it hostile and hitting it will prevent your damage, but you will recieve none. However trying the same effect with Vengeful Weapon, the minion will steal life from you (because life stealing isn't damage). <>Sparky, the Tainted 16:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent buff

Great buff, combined with Mantra of Persistence and a cheap cover hex this skill can be a deadly degen hex --Soulforged 16:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Did the behavior change with the new description? It makes it sound like the enemy would get healed at 10 seconds even if the hex lasted longer than that. Also, maybe early removal prevents the healing from occurring?--Chump Chief 18:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I tested it, it only heals when it ends. about the early removal i'm not sure yet, going to test it soon (though i doubt it wouldn't heal) --Soulforged 18:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Did some testing the healing takes place when the hex ends, if it ends early (used drain delusions) or if it last longer (mantra of persistence) it heals when the hex ends. Monk Texas Ranger 21:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, added a note to reflect this (maybe should be listed as an anomaly? I don't know how to do that though)--Chump Chief 22:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I believe it'd be a bug since they intended for it to only heal after the 10 seconds. I'm not 100% certain on that, though. xP 173.64.119.238 11:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I recently read the developer notes on the official site, it says:

"Illusion of Pain has been given additional damage to make it more effective at actually killing something. We've also changed how much it heals and how that works in order to enable more interesting skill combinations and to make it more useful against characters with hex removal"

Thus I believe that the healing effect should take place only when the hex ends naturally and not when prematurely removed, otherwise it would really be of no use against characters with hex removal (quite the contrary). Unless of course the developer team's intention was initially different(?) This is the link for verification. Nefeli of Mirrors 16:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Healing also occurs when hex is removed, [1] Matek 23:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Illusion of Pain + Shared Burden = Spectral Agony almost --Underwood 04:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that they should have made it heal an amount per second it lasted, so that if removed premeturely it doesn't result in a net heal. However, this could be quite bad for you if you do keep re-applying it, since it could result in a potentially unlimited heal (imagine a target about to be killed suddenly gaining 100s of hp from losing this one hex). 81.105.65.18 12:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

True, that's why you should be very careful and use it wisely. However in case you cast it and it lasts its full duration the target doesn't get "healed" it only gets healed for half the damage the hex caused. so basically sometimes you don't have to recast it again and again, it slightly resembles deep wound; reducing health but once removed the target receives the hp he lost (in our case half the hp) --Soulforged 20:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I love it even more now

I never really saw this run, but even before the update I used it and really liked it. The additional damage and now time based healing are great too.

Quite lethal if used on someone around 33% health, 10 degen + 100 hp lost in the process, toss in one hit from another source and the target is likely dead before the healing kicks in.

If you use it with Mantra of Persistence it deals a total of 420 damage after 14 sec, basically it almost kills anything below 80% health. Another good skill to cover it with is Shrinking Armor which can be used after casting and recasting Illusion of Pain. --Soulforged 23:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

imo it's a tad OP now, I'd either lower or get rid of entirely the damage per second. i see a nerf coming eventually but i just hope they don't nerf it too bad. oh well, i'll enjoy using it in the meantime and hate it when i'm not using it. Materia user 23:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember when this skill was buffed and everyone laughed at it saying it's overhealing and bad, now almost every mesmer uses this skill, at last, you see more illusion magic mesmers and not billions of lame VoR mesmers. This skill might be overpowered but hey, it's not as overpowered as the old VoR which wasn't nerfed for almost a year. This skill makes mesmers better health degenrators than rangers and necromancers as they should be. --Soulforged 20:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

this is almost like glimmering mark but nonelite 195.95.209.20 12:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this is much better than glimmering mark, since all health loss from it ignores armor, you can continue using spells on IoP targets, its length can be artifically lengthened with Mantra of Persistance, it can be covered with various condition causing hexes from the same line, and it can be reapplied before the duration runs out, so the drawback never occurs. Might just be me, but there should not be a single damned skill that "bypasses" the degen cap without a drawback that can be loopholed around. 173.88.136.15 00:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Glimmering mark is a pressure skill. Or more accurately, fire and forget (in all senses of the term). You use it, and you MUST switch targets to pressure, or glimmer becomes useless. On the other hand, for IoP, the skill pretty much requires you to maintain a chosen target (to cover IoP, or interrupt hex removal, or etc.) The task of maintaining IoP makes the 10-14 seconds it lasts go quickly. Bottom line: Its a matter of single target pressure vs. damage spread pressure, not better or worse. Choose your build strategy.--72.78.235.192 16:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I want this to be nerfed. Too powerful as it is now. Previously Unsigned 03:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Shatter Delusion

So what happens if I strip IoP off with Shatter Delusions? will it heal or not heal the foe? - Chrisworld 23:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

They're healed. – Emmett 23:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course, the healing is slightly countered by the damage. Good idea if you time it right and don't want to recast IoP for some reason (if Shatter deals the damage first, then it could be for the kill). -~=Sparky (talk) 23:35, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I just tested it. Shatter Delusions removes a hex, then deals the damage; which means that Illusion of Pain's healing triggers first. It is healing, though, so it can be nulled a bit if you take Accumulated Pain or something. —Jette 01:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Bug?

Not sure, But when used against a turtle in FA the damage per second is 1 even at 16 illusion. it does what it's supposed to against juggies, so... am i missing something or is this a bug? they still get the degen but not the DPS. not that i'm complaining that much, as the luxons in FA can use w/e advantage they can get there is already enough bugs working against them. and no the turt was not affected by anything that would lower the damage, i've used it many times.Roflmaomgz 16:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Turtle Shell <-- Kurtan 16:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Heroes

Do heroes use this skill well? I mean do they reapply it?--88.24.9.203 14:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No, heroes won't reapply it before it ends unless you make them. –Jette 16:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Heroes also tend to use this skill somewhere below <50% HP. So it can be somewhat safely argued they use it as a finisher, and won't have to reapply it. Same pros and cons as pvp, however; good finisher, but if there is hex removal, it could make your fight longer.--72.78.235.192 15:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend it. Heroes tend to only reapply hexes when the hex ends. Which means you'll either be healing the target or praying that you finish it off before the hex ends. Karate Jesus 15:46, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

This skill

Is retardedly overpowered. It's only a matter of time till people start abusing it, if they haven't already. Mark my words. Dark Morphon 11:49, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

If you play aspenwood/RA/AB you see it all day, use it with a snare and interrupt and you can rape anything that doesn't have a healer nearby. --Cursed Angel 12:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

How come everyone's complaining that it's overpowered when back then all they said was "this skill sucks it's overhealing"? --Soulforged 18:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Because they were both true? Although, this is still isn't THAT overpowered. In our heavy hexway meta, most people have learned how to counter hexes. Karate Jesus 19:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It's overpowered in small arenas (of which there will soon be fewer), and unused in 8v8. elix Omni 19:04, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

JQ and FA are 8v8 and it's used very often there (but I knew what you meant). Karate Jesus 19:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

They're not as organized, it rules unorganized areas ;o ---Chaos- (talk) -- 19:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, it's used in teh GvGs nao. GG GUIS! Dark Morphon 15:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

How to make this skill not so OP

Increase the cast time to 2 or 3 seconds IMO.68.234.76.177 08:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

2s *might* work, but the drawback would be massive because interrupting it becomes ridiculously easy. I can already time a rupt on it just by counting, and a nonprimray mesmer goes by reflexes. You'd often be forced to just let the target get the heal. ---Chaos- (talk) -- 09:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

IoP is actually the least of your problems in high end gvg splits. It's annoying, yes, it can be interrupted, but really, interrupting snares, heals etc is more important overall. Pika Fan 09:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is. I was actually talking about lower end PvP, but your point stands. I think the cast would be 1.4s on a primary mesmer, without remembering the bar. ---Chaos- (talk) -- 09:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

wat

From r14 to r16 the only thing that increases is the healing. One of the few instances were more attribute points makes the skill worse. ;-) Justice 22:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The chart is nice but its not right. Just because max dgen is caped at 10 doesnt mean the 1-2 pips disapear. Im going to do either tweaking of the chart or a note. Justice 06:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

That chart is very miss leading. It basically says r17, 19 and 21 are bad because degen maxes at 10. The chart should really be removed or choped off at r16. Better to have no info about r17-21 then incorrect/missleading info. Or perhaps:

Row 1: Max Potential Damge (full pips included)

Row 2: Net Damage

With note saying max dgen is 10. Chart assumes full effect (aka foe has regen). The info would at least be correct. Justice 07:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

degen is caped at 10 so the 1-2 pips do dissapear. They are of no matter unless the target get's regen. The cart assumes the foe has no regen at all. Rhonin Soren 10:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

This is quickly becoming a battle of semantics. Some feel that the table should show the skills multiplyer. others feel that it shouldnt show as able to do more than 10 degen. However, This page is not for education about Regen or degen. If they wanna learn the mechanics of that they can look at that page. For the purposes of the skill page however it should show that according to the multiplyer it goes higher than 10. Because the table is for information about the skills mechanics. Once again, its not for teaching the mechanics of degen. Briar 10:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I was just going to say (before the edit conflict) that maybe the 2 rows potenential and net would be the best solution. No we don't educate about de/re-gen on this page I agree but a lot of people don't know the mechanics about that. only the potenial damage would be misleading either because of how regen works. Rhonin Soren 10:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm adding net potentil damage to Rhonin Soren 10:37, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Better now? Rhonin Soren 10:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Its an orderly mess. Seriously just remove it. Anyone who wants to use the skill can just do the silly easy math involved. My basic point of view anyhow. Justice 11:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think its a nice addition. I also think that justice is trolling a skill he doesnt like, but w/e. lol. Keep it. Its good. Briar 11:17, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

thx also justice it's a lott of math trust me Rhonin Soren 11:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I also think it's an orderly mess at the moment. Still, I would like to see some sort of Damage Comparison table since the results aren't intuitive. I think it would be more useful if were less busy: (1) few players will adjust their Illusion rank for the one skill alone (it just doesn't matter enough at common ranks); (2) All damage causes by IoP is potential; distinguishing between total and potential and net is also more detail than most players need. To make this more helpful to more players:

• Replace the four rows with just two, representing Net damage after 10s in absence of other factors;
• Remove all the red highlights and replace it with a note saying that half of the rank increases will reduce net damage by 5-10% (applies to all odd ranks through r11 and all ranks >= 13);
• Include 2-3 notes pointing out the many factors that can affect overall damage: hex duration (extensions, early removal), regen caps, etc

I think the less-is-more approach will be more visually appealing and more useful. (Rhonin: thanks for doing all the heavy lifting on this.)  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:37, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

If your describing "normal" ranks then just do as I suggested and cap the table at r16 and leave the white/red/green. Thats where 10dgen ends and is the "normal" attribute cap. Any one interested in higher ranks can just refer to the top chart which is essentialy all pve where you now when you will run against foes with regen. Thats kinda what put the chart off for me in the first place. Justice 19:05, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fine as it is right now. extentions, removal and regen whe can make tables about but that would make the page as long as the entire wiki together. The reason why there are 4 tables is because of the degen cap wich is quite of a bid deal for this skill. tenesee removing the red and saying half of the ranks decrease the net damage compared to the one before still leaves people wondering wich ranks? if saying the odd ranks >=13, well if they get that they understand the table as it is right now to. if people can't read the table then fail less at reading comprehension. Justice in PvP you can get 17 to and regen is more common in PvP than it is in PvE btw not the other way around. PS: tenesee thx for fixing my notes the first time. I know i fail at writing :p Rhonin Soren 20:04, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The 2nd chart. It's disruptive as hell

And it tells pretty much nothing you couldn't figure out just by looking at the other one. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 21:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

<3 ---Chaos- (moo) -- 21:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I'm personally against doing maths for users, but if so, the smaller and more concise the table the better. Since in most cases you won't have to worry about counter-acting regen, I think making a table based on a cap of 10 is fine (which I did) --JonTheMon 21:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I like Jon's solution.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Wont have to worry about counteracting regen...? uhm.... Troll unuguent sais hi? Briar 22:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Nobody cares, actually ;> ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Obviously someone cares if they put a chart up about it. Untrue yet still invalid points, are both untrue and invalid. >.> Briar 04:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

That's the cart i made the first time (the one jon made) but some people *cough*justice*cought* didn't like it so i had to add 2 more rows.Rhonin Soren 08:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Dont be shy, you dont have to "tip-toe" while saying my name. Everyone pack on that +1 20% illusion magic mod since I made the error of not be specific enough on what is the "normal cap" on an attribute rank. The chart looks fine and uncomplicated in its current form. The note is perfect. Ty for the efforts. Justice 09:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well you can just look at the first chart and conclude that you're already hitting the degen cap at 14, and that a sup rune and +1/20% only give +1dps at the cost of 75hp and a bad set. If someone is bringing the wrong sets, then its their stupidity. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 09:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The sentance about +1 20% was sarcasm. Sorry. Justice 11:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. When you respond to someone, add 1 more : than the person you're responding to.

And your sarcasm fails big time =/ ---Chaos- (moo) -- 22:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

More like your manners and reading skills Justice 09:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't tend to bother being nice to people unless I know that they're new, and I don't know any new GWW'rs because I don't spam welcome templates, so.. And well, I don't really care when I'm on the internet. ---Chaos- (moo) -- 18:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

chaos likes being an ass. much like everyone here. chaos sentences are 1% informative 99% ass.--66.50.35.24 03:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

oh shit, you speak the truth! do you happened to be named Komir by any chance? 71.161.202.16 03:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I laughed, also the truth --ScorpySEH 15:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Spectral Agony?

Is it related, even though it's a monster skill? Minus the snaring feature of Spectral Agony, they do the same thing. Sec Qr Euin 01:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

iirc, monster skills aren't included.--67.240.83.137 01:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

You are correct. See GWW:SKILLS. -- FreedomBound 01:57, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Bug?

When you remove this skill with for instance drain delusions, the heal does not trigger. I guess this is bug, and should be worth mentioning. Nohjo 12:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Fixed--Therobinator5000 02:38, 13 August 2010 (UTC)