User:Yoshida Keiji/Wilosophy/Future Features/GW2W says no GW1 content

From GW2:Talk:Abaddon

Abaddon has been effectively dead for over 250 years. Do we really need this article? --Santax (talk · contribs) 18:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope. He's never been mentioned as part as GW2 except stuff like "...since the death of Abaddon..." Calor (t) 18:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Lore from Guild Wars clearly applies in Guild Wars 2, as they have the same setting. That said, I think this should be rewritten from a 250-years-later standpoint. —Tanaric 19:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps. I'd be more comfortable deleting it unless Abaddon pops up in dialogue a lot in GW2. We can fill in the GWW Abaddon article with the last tidbits of info given, if necessary. I have a feeling interwiki linking is going to be used a lot more than we expected. But this whole conversation should take place on the article retention page, not here. Calor (t) 19:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we do need this article. Otherwise, people from GW2 taking a look back at the first game won't have a clue who in fuck's name Abaddon, a very important character in Guild Wars: Nightfall is.

Uh, he's not actually dead (gl hf killing a god, I don't know what rules they have in the devs' minds for it), so I'd argue for keep. Willing to bet he'll pop up at some point to say boo. -- Armond Warblade 22:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I think we got him for good. Kormir finished him off with the power the five gods gave her. Lord Belar 00:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Dhuum's been dead for over a thousand years and Abaddon is a significant historical figure. -- Gordon Ecker 08:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If the site is keeping Dhuum and menzies, you might as well keep Abaddon. I think Olias mentioned that Grenth will not make the same mistake he made with Dhuum or something along those lines once nightfall has been beaten. there could be the possibility of Abaddon being a re-emerged threat (Farwind 04:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC))

don't delete this because it tells how kormir stole abbadon's power so that relates to a god so why should we delete it (Arthurperson 20:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC))

I can name other historical figures that don't get GW2W pages, because everything they did was done in GW1. As far as I know, Abbadon hasn't done anything new after GW1. Delete. Or we can bring Gwen in, because she's a historical figure. Or maybe we could even bring in the Lich, afterall he's from Orr, and Orr had an ancient dragon, so they're related, right? No. Delete immediately please, completely irrelevent to GW2. Kai Nui 19:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Kainui brings up a good point. It'd be best to delete for his/her reasons. Calor 19:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, seriously no need for this. We MAY need it for the future, But I'd wager that won't happen soon. --Nuclear 7 19:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

To me it seems an equivalent of a "dynastic period" article relating to Elona, or a "the empire of the dragon started in **** with kaineng" article, in that it doesn't directly effect the game, but give very important background on how the game world got to be the way it is.Tambora 22:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between historical figures and significant historical figures. Abaddon played a major role in the Searing, the Cataclysm, the Jade Wind, the formation of the Desolation, the drying up of the Crystal Sea and the near extinction of the Mursaat and the Forgotten. -- Gordon Ecker 09:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget Nightfall as well. Cress Arvein 02:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

And let's not forget, if Abaddon hadn't done all of his NF craziness, we'd be short one god. If we're going to delete him, we might as well delete all of the historical data on the original GWW and make a 'pre-Guild Wars wiki' for it. 24.89.47.33 04:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a bit extreme. This is the GW2Wiki, not GW1Wiki. Abaddon is dead and won't return and as such isn't a part of GW2 aside from mentions which can simply be done via Abaddon in the page instead of linking to this page, but he is a huge part of GW1 and thus deserves its GW1 page. -- -- Konig/talk 05:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't even know how someone could consider deleting this. That would be like deleting the gw1:Goddess of Truth because it really didn't have much to do with GW1, or like deleting the Ventari article because he's dead. Abaddon was a god, he's an important part of GW's back-story, and removing this page would probably lead to many new players being confused. Eive 01:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Eive, having this article is like having an article on King Doric on this wiki, or having an article on the Exodus of the Gods. Comparing this article to the Goddess of Truth article on GW1Wiki is not an accurate comparison - it's like taking an apple and comparing it to an orange. We have a Ventari article because he lives past GW1's time and influences the time past GW1, Abaddon does not. Durmand has an article because he greatly influences GW2 - far more than Abaddon does - and his article is easily debatable for existence (so long as the information is moved onto the GW1Wiki article for Durmand).

The only affect Abaddon has on GW2 is that he is the predecessor of Kormir, and an inter-wiki link (e.g., Abaddon) would serve just as much purpose and not leave people confused. The only issue that will ever come up with these kinds of characters (Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies, Gwen, and other GW1 and pre-GW1 will be when people search on this wiki and the article is on GW1Wiki - but the solution to that should be discussed on a more general page). -- Konig/talk 01:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "We have a Ventari article because he lives past GW1's time and influences the time past GW1, Abaddon does not." To be honest, we don't know that yet. Abbadon basically influenced or directly caused most major events in GW1. Prophecies, Factions, and especially Nightfall are entirely his fault. He should at least get a decent sized page here. His story is basically the back-story behind GW itself. Not to mention the fact that the GW1 article is filled with random things such as how to defeat him, armor, skills, and other things that don't relate to GW2; while the article here provides information about Kormir's ascension and how the Lich and Shiro were "manipulated" into almost bringing about the end of the world three separate times. Eive 02:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

In a now-old video interview with Jeff Grubb, he stated that Abaddon is dead and will not return (I think it was the PAX 3 years of GW panel, might be wrong - it'll be hell to find it). Why should he get a page here when he doesn't influence anything beyond GW1's time and we can just interwiki link to a better page? Sounds like a waste of space and effort, tbh, to maintain a page on him here. -- Konig/talk 04:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, there is no reason to maintain it. But removing what we have is just as pointless. With some of the reasons you listed on Dhuum I find the position you are taking here a bit odd. And (although my argument is still flawed) what I meant by "We don't know that yet," was that maybe we might run into stray demons, margonites, or crazy Abaddon fanatics, I find it hard to believe they all died after we killed him and Malyx (like I said, still flawed). Eive 21:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Should any of those return, we can still just link to GW1. Again, the only issue there is would be when someone tries to search it directly, but if we solve that issue simply by making a page for everyone someone might search, we might as well not have a separate wiki for GW2. -- Konig/talk 21:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

GW1

Regarding these edits - I don't think there's a need to include everything that happened in Guild Wars concerning Abaddon - gw1:Abaddon (and related articles) can be used for that. Remember, we have GWW at our disposal to link to when referencing past events. The article goes into way too much detail about non-Guild Wars 2 happenings; a short summary with interwiki links would suffice. -- pling 14:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we will need to establish a convention or dealing with these things. Personnally i suggest that Kormir should have her page on GW2W but referemces for abaddon should link to GWW, seeing as he has no significant role IN GW2. Regarding lore concerning pre GW that should stay on GWW IF it was learned during GW. ie. we learned that the Jade Wind was a result of abaddon in GW so if it continues to play a significant role in GW2 we make an article with the information gleaned from GW2 and make a rather pointed note that there is much more info located on the GWW. However should we learn in GW2 that a dragon was influencing abaddon to cause the Jade Wind (I know that that makes no sense but its just an example) then that info gets placed here, while GWW gets a link to here stating that new info was revealed in GW2. If anyone thinks this is a bad idea let me know.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Indigo121 (talk • contribs).

There was a discussion somewhere a while back that information on lore during and before GW1's time goes on the GWW while lore info post GW1's time (which atm is 1079 AE though it seems that it'll be at 1080 AE soon with the GW:B) should be on this wiki. So certain things we learn about from GW2's lore that affects GW1 more than GW2 gets a note here and an article there - e.g., gw1:Cauldron of Cataclysm.

This article is only kept here thus far because people are constantly speculating that Abaddon may return. He's dead - get over it people. I still vote for deletion of this article (and Dhuum since there's no reference to him thus far). -- Konig/talk 19:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for deletion, unless someone can come up with a legitimate reason not to delete this in the next few days it should be deleted.Indigo121 02:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I've never really messed with a wiki before so if I'm doing this wrong someone should change it. From an outside perspective I appreciate this article existing because I really don't want to have to go offsite to get information. I know he's from Guild Wars 1 but as long as it's written as a past tense article I think it's good to have here for someone who never played the first one and wants to know who he was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.121.117.32 (talk • contribs).

I also agree with deletion, he has no real effect on GW2. ~ Bow File:User Bow Sig.png | 01:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The whole off-site linking has been discussed here, and the general consensus at the time was to continue to utilize inter-wiki linking because GW1 information should belong on the GW1Wiki - and interwiki links exist for the purpose of documenting the two games on two sites without unnecessarily duplicating articles made purely for lore purposes - this, and Dhuum, is such an article. -- Konig/talk 01:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

DISAGREE he is still important he did alot of things before he was overrun by ms idiot. and besides we already been through this deletion crap.--Icyyy Blue 01:47, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

He's as important as Ronan, Prince Rurik, Salma, Kisu, and so on - do they have articles? Nope. Also, discussions can easily be brought back up when new people enter the fray. -- Konig/talk 01:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Just because they don't have articles doesn't mean they shouldn't, if they provide important enough historical context. "Consistency" is a bit of a red herring considering that there's still not been any proper discussion on what GW1 content should be kept (it's usually just decided on a case-by-case basis or handwaved away with "consistency"). It would probably be more pertinent to argue why Abaddon isn't relevant to GW2. --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Correction: there was the start of what might have been a larger discussion on article retention here, but the page was deleted (it has since been restored). Perhaps we should consider starting up that discussion again. --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

If you read the cinematic script to the post Gate of Abaddon video, Kormir only states his "will is broken" there is no mention of Abaddon's actual death or destruction. If the five gods couldn't kill him, I highly doubt Kormir could.

I agree, there's no point in this article being here. If eventually Abaddon comes back at GW2 (which is IMO extremely unlikely), we could simply recreate it. Erasculio 17:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Either delete the article or make less tl;dr. As all the rest have stated, if you want more details about Abaddon, then just go to the GW1 wiki.--Ravencroft0 05:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Reopening this discussion

With recent information that has come out regarding Orr and Arah, it's likely that we'll be seeing references to Abaddon in-game (statues of him from Arah have been datamined), and it's not unlikely that people will search here for additional information about him. Also, if any new information arises about him in this game that wasn't in GW1, it'd have to be documented here. I'm in favor of having at least something here, the "Abaddon isn't directly relevant to GW2, so no page" argument seems very weak. There's also the option of using a template like the one seen on this TF2 Wiki page to link to GW1W for things like the Exodus of the Gods and the Cataclysm, which might not need a new page but people might still search for here. -- File:User Nineaxis Icon Mesmer.jpg Nineaxis (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I like directly linking to GW1W better. Massive top-banner just seems too ugly and outdated to use on this wiki. Something more subtle like disambiguation template or standard GWW template could be used instead, but as long as there's nothing else to say about Abaddon than what history books tell us (from Tyrian's point of view), I don't think we need an entire article of just a few lines about how evil Abaddon was, coupled with link to GWW article. Mediggo 19:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Linking directly to GW1W makes sense for references to Abaddon elsewhere on the wiki, but the issue is when someone types Abaddon - or the Cataclysm, or Exodus of the Gods, or Vizier Khilbron (or any other lore-related item that's relevant in both games but only documented on GW1W) into the search box here. Having a page there to direct people to GW1W would be more user friendly then a search list of pages that reference them that they would need to click on, and look through for the reference to get a link to GW1W. -- File:User Nineaxis Icon Mesmer.jpg Nineaxis (talk) 19:39, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Was Abaddon a pawn of Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik?

The magic which Abaddon provided to Vizier Khilbron and the titans/Flame Legion for The Cataclysm and The Searing respectively seem to be related to the respective Elder Dragons in the general vicinity.
Zhaitan is an undead dragon who is using the undead (former citizens of Orr that were transformed by The Cataclysm) as part of his army.
Kralkatorrik is a crystal dragon and (fiery?) crystals rained down from the sky in The Searing in GW1.

Has ArenaNet confirmed any relation between Abaddon and the 2 Elder Dragons mentioned above?
Has anyone tried comparing the art (the look) of the crystals from The Searing to the crystals caused by Kralkatorrik (in the Dragonbrand and elsewhere if relevant)?

Abaddon was not a minion of Zhaitan, nor of Kralkatorrik. If you look back in the lore, he was originally one of the Six Gods (as shown by Varesh Ossa's dialogue during many of the Nightfall missions). He was originally the god of Water and Secrets, both of which have nothing to do with either Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik. Also, the magics used by the Charr during the Searing were derived from their "gods," the Titans, which, might I add, are "demonic creatures created in the Foundry of Failed Creations by twisting tormented souls." That has absolutely nothing to do with either Zhaitan or Kralkatorrik. Before you go on a rant about "Oh, but Zhaitan is the Elder Dragon of undead stuff and souls are undead-ish," let me point out that souls are just that, the entity, or to use the word again, soul, of the dead. They're not undead, per se, unlike, for example, the Risen, or the undead wandering around Kryta in Guild Wars. Also, how are the actions of Abaddon, Vizier Khilbron, and Zhaitan- three completely unrelated "people," related, all of which happened centuries apart? They're not. That'd be like saying that that one of George Washington's four hundred and twenty-third sneeze caused 9/11 and the Rwandan genocide in 1994. Also, to point this out, Abaddon did not necessarily provide the Titans/Charr with the magic that they used during the Searing. Sure, the Titans were minions of Abaddon; however, they had their own magics, as everything in GW1 did. Examples of that fact abound; the Mursaat, Shiro Tagachi, even the Norn. ANet has not, to the best of my knowledge, confirmed any sort of relationship, nor that any of the gods and Elder Dragons are somehow connected/related. The only thing that connects them are theories, propagated by either people like ourselves or others, like WoodenPotatoes. Yes, I have looked at Searing crystals, both from GW1 and GW2, and, while I can see how you would deduce what you did. However, you need to keep in mind that 1) technology changes and graphics get better, and 2) it's most likely just a re-used texture from somewhere previously made, such as the Brand.

Is this page needed?

I just read through the article and most of the information is about historical events that have no impact on GW2. To me it seems the only information that could arguably be on here is "He gave magic to humans" and "He was originally one of the 6 human gods before the events of 'Guild Wars: Nightfall' replaced him with Kormir". We have no need to know about his influence of the events of the original Guild Wars as there's the other wiki for that (which there's a link to all ready). Thoughts anyone? ~ PheNaxKian talk 11:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a direct copy of the intro section on gww:Abaddon. I agree, it's pretty pointless on this wiki at this time. If the Fall of Abaddon fractal is developed, then it would be relevant to have a local article about Abaddon, but not until then. —Dr Ishmael File:User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.png 12:31, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmm .. If there is nothing new about Abaddon in GW2, then I'd agree not to have the page. Instead, would it be possible to have it refer to GWW:Abaddon until there's more information? I'd rather have a page that refers to some information than delete it. -- Karasu (talk) 12:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC)