Feedback talk:User/Musha/PvE Skills for Heroes

I'm not sure I like this, especially the thought of people exploiting heroes to farm various areas. I think heroes are really important to improving play, but they shouldn't come closer to replacing human allies than they already are. Many players, in the difficult areas you speak of, have enough trouble getting into human groups because they don't meet the standards of the "pro" community. Humans should play more together, not depend on heroes. Xiaquin 06:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I whole-heartedly disagree with you, Xiaquin. Meeting the standards of the "pro" community at this point means you have to have a specific profession with a specific build. I've done every elite area in hard mode very many times. I would consider myself to be a part of the "pro" community, and yet, I've been instantly dropped from parties upon pinging by build because my monk HB build used Dwayna's Kiss instead of Healing Whisper. Forget about doing DoA if you're a paragon or dervish. WTF!? Humans aren't playing together as it is, not unless you're a part of an elite mission running guild. Humans are dead-set on running certain builds and only those builds. Look at Tombs. Back when pets had exploitable corpses, the only professions that could find a party in Tombs were rangers, necros, and monks. Now that SF sins have become overwhelmingly common, the only parties you'll find are those of sins. Go ahead, take a peak. Go to ToPK and count how many non A/E toons you see. The players in the game are racist. Paragons, dervishes, ritualists, etc. will not be able to find an elite mission/farming party because they're not SF sins or fulfill other gimic roles. ~Mervil 16:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

EXACTLY! Thank you, Mervil! Very well said! --MushaTalk 00:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Read what I said on Feedback_talk:User/Tashiro/Heroes_with_PvE_Skills. If this gets implanted, PvE will become the most horrible joke in the gaming industry. Titani Ertan 07:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I read that and didn't much care for it. It doesn't matter what build you can put on your heroes, going with real people will always be better. But, seriously, what is the difference between going with people that use those builds and going with heroes, except, that if heroes have access to those skills, too, then we don't have to wait for people in the elite areas to party up with who never come, or be forced to run a build that the party wants you to run. At least, this way, we would be able to use OUR OWN builds and would be able to do dungeons, vanquishing, elite areas, etc when a real party can't be found.

After all, our heroes have access to all other affects of our titles, why not allow them to use the skills, too. If I am wearing the lightbringer title, all of my heroes get a bonus against demonic servants of Abaddon, why not allow them to use the skills linked to the title as well.

If your issue is that PvE skills are over-powered, then make a post about it somewhere else. This post is about whether or not heroes should have access to PvE skills. And they SHOULD. :D --MushaTalk 05:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, if you can't PvE with normal heroes, you're doing it wrong. With HM I may understand, or DoA, but casual PvE is a complete joke as-is.

WOW! YOU'RE RIGHT!!! You know what!? Let's give Luxon Warrior the Luxon PvE skill, EVEN IN PVP!! Let's do it with all NPC's, because, according to your thought, anyone that has any relations to PvE aspects/skills must have those skills! Ohhhh!!!! What about this: Let's give Kurzick&Luxon PvP players PvE skills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!! Because, as you said, they are Luxon, so they should get Luxon and Kurzick skills!

You still haven't explain how it would be balanced. Hero AI is Henchman, but much, much better. Give them PvE skills, and they will make PvE the worst joke, and they will be the most broken thing. Titani Ertan 05:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So, this Luxon Warrior of yours, has he obtained the Savior of the Luxons title? No? Then why should he be able to have the PvE skill linked to that title? When you wear a title, your heroes get the same benefits, not all other NPCs, so stop exaggerating my suggestion into the most extreme scenarios. Just as I described in my previous statement: When you wear the Lightbringer title, which causes you to deal 5% more damage to and have +1 damage reduction against Abaddon and his demonic servants, all of your heroes gain this benefit. When you have a rank in a title, you also get a skill related to that title, and since your heroes share the inherent effects of a title as well as go through the campaigns with you, it stands to reason that they would have the skills associated with each title. I am speaking of HEROES, not Henchmen or NPCs, and TITLES not professions, species, factions, or classifications.

And it would be balanced in the exact same way that partying up with real people would be balanced (if a party of real people could, indeed, be found these days). The ONLY difference between having a party of real people and a party of heroes that have PvE skills is that when in a party of heroes, you have to put up with their AI, a decided disadvantage.

Again, I make this suggestion so that when I want to do an elite area (such as Urgoz's Warren or Domain of Anguish), or vanquish, or do a Dungeon, or do ANYTHING on HM, not just casual PvE, I can, since it is almost impossible to find a decent party of real people. By decent party, I mean 2 things:

1) A party with enough real people. I usually can't find enough people to make a real party, unless there is a Zquest in that area that day. The problem this causes is that we end up having to use heroes, anyway, which are underpowered for the areas and activities I attempt. Which brings us back to my suggestion.

2) A party that does not discriminate against profession or build. Most parties these days, especially those doing elite areas and HM stuff require certain gimmick builds. I can't count how many times I've been kicked from a party in place of another player running the Shadow Form build, or a terra tank. And when I play my Warrior, forget about it, no party will accept a warrior these days.

Please give our heroes access to title-based PvE skills, even if they are allowed access to these skill only on HM. So when we want to do a higher-difficult activity, we aren't hindered by lack of real people, and so we can choose the builds to be used OURSELVES. --MushaTalk 01:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you know why it's worse? Heroes have better AI than henchman. They in most cases overpower humans. Have you ever tried bringing a hero with interrupts? With Enchantment/Hex/Condition/any other removal? A hero with Hexes? I did, and they did better than people. The only downside is flagging, but that can be dealt with easily.

Now and again, I am going to put it in bold letters:

PvE SKILLS ARE FUCKING BROKEN AND IF YOU COMBINE THEM WITH AI THEY ARE THE MOST BROKEN THING OF THE ERA.

Heroes with Discord are bad enough, but if they can have Necrosis or Cry of Pain, HM will be the same difficulty as NM.

Here I say this once again: DoA is not balanced. It is retarded for ordinary players, and a volleyball on the beach with 3 nakkid ladies for speed clears. And if you say you got kicked for discrimination, why do you want PvE skills, which are in 99% of the time, the reason for discrimination? Hell, it will get worse! You could get a perma form Zenmai or Anton!

So fucking what that we give heroes title advantage? Titles don't come along with skills. You can have Feel No Pain with rank 0 Norn.

So I say this, YET AGAIN: Until PvE skills are fixed, heroes with PvE skills will be more broken than an antique vase in a room filled with giant elephants and fat samurai. Titani Ertan 12:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You can already use heroes to perma, actually. It just takes some hefty microing. I've run the 4H Zquest that way before. ··· Danny Pew Pew 17:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

How? You now need Deadly Paradox. Titani Ertan 17:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

You might wanna take a close look at which attribute DP's in. I'll give you a hint - it's an Assassin one. ;o ··· Danny Pew Pew 18:10, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry... got all this stuff mingled up. My point was that it'll be worse when your heroes can remove a lot of bar compression with PvE skills on them, and enhancing overall damage/protection very easily, especially with SF. Titani Ertan 18:12, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I whole-heartedly agree. The idea of A/Me permas with Ether Nightmare is fucking ridiculous. ··· Danny Pew Pew 18:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

How is that so ridiculous?! A/Me permas with Ether Nightmare ALREADY EXIST on real players! --MushaTalk 04:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

You just proved Titani's point. Also, PvE skills only being usable on players is 1 of the few reasons some people still team up with other players. Take that away and nobody uses anything but heroes anymore. I can see Anet pulling it off though, it's like "You wanna get far in this game? Yea, you want to, don't you? Well you got to buy another expansion you dumbshit!" Koda Kumi 14:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)