User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Overpowered Skills/Elementalist/Archive 2

Rodgort's Invocation

Now arguably the best spike skill in the game. With dual attune eles or boosted Glyph of Energy this can easily wipe a party. With 6 eles and a lod /infuse and an rc, you eally can defeat basically anyone. AAlmost beat [Gank] and [Ee] in halls with it, but lost by one point in capture points. I'd say do what you did with Savanha Heat, lower energy but increase recharge. - Cheese Slaya (Guildwiki)

Actually if caster spike like this come back, with 2s cast time and 25E, people will simply bring Cry of Frustration more again (which was buffed). Being interrupted on a 25E spell can be EXTREMELY harsh on your emanagement if you run dual attune. If you run GoE, well you give away exactly when you'll spike. I don't think 2s cast caster spikes are broken anymore. People should honestly know how to handle them by now. It's just that it's been so long without them plaguing halls that builds don't take the utility required for it, but give it a few days and with enough RI spike teams trying their luck, good balanced teams will easily handle them. And winning or losing in 3 ways Capture Point doesn't really show anything about how you'd have done in 1v1 against those teams Patccmoi 23:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cry of Frustration and Xinrae's Weapon were both just buffed. Make use of them. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 00:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

If I was going to even consider running a caster spike with 2c spells, all of those spikers would have an anti-interrupt Mantra. -Ensign 20:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see...Here --ChronicinabilitY 20:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine as is. Sure it's scary, but there are a lot of scary things in GW; people are just not used to eles actually being scary direct offensive threats in something other than a spike- or spike-assist capacity. As Ensign said, any casterspike running 2s cast spells would use Mantras, but you lose a lot of utility forcing /Me on everyone. Dig out your fire shields, spread out, and disrupt the eles.72.211.155.160 08:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with that. Honestly any caster with a Fire shield would survive 5, or even 6 Rodgort's in his face (elemental damage is really not THAT scary), and monks should manage to Infuse/SBond before the afterspike. Unlike something like Rt spike that packs tons of various defense and healing, E/Me don't have anything except wards to offer as layers of defense, and this means that if you got any kind of AOE to force them out, you can easily pressure them down. I think this might make Fire Eles as serious option for pressure as midliner in a balanced build on a bar that can fit utility (cause if you use something like Mind Blast, you can have the energy for other stuff too), and that's good. It's nice to have a caster midliner that can at least outpressure a Paragon (and even that isn't certain if you don't hit 2+ people regulary... but at least RI has the potential to do that, as opposed to Fireball, etc.) Patccmoi 16:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

We've been running 2x Mind Blast/RI/utility eles in GvG recently (as something pretty easy to play that new players can learn on), as part of a balanced build as you mention. They're solid characters capable of kicking out some decent pressure, and I think they're a wonderful addition to the metagame. Mesmers tend to own them in the face, as they should -- granted, one of our Eles is really green and doesn't know how to dodge diversions. --72.211.155.160 19:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Spells with 2S cast that are effected by armor are NOT viable spike skills. This spell is fine as it is. On a related note ... I think Izzy's direction of making high energy skills with short recharges makes for a very interesting game.

This was a scary change well see how it plays out, I haven't seen any big spike teams with it really but Well keep an eye on it over the next month or so. ~Izzy @-'---- 23:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think although this skill costs a ton, its payoff of ridiculous. Being able to do 127 + 42 damage every 5 seconds alone (or spike with 127*5 + 42) makes this skill deadly. Using this with Glyph of Elemental Power makes it even moreso. Up something on it.

On another note, being counterable does not make a skill balanced. Someone above said "cry and xinrae's weapon were buffed, use them." One of those skills sucks and nobody uses it. The other one has a 15 recharge, making the skill you're countering only 33% less effective at best. Cool, you listed one viable skill in the whole game that can slow down a Rodgort's spike. When you can tell me at least one viable skill in each profession (or even half of them) that can counter something, you can start calling that something balanced. Shard 11:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Any mes interrupt. Any ranger interrupt. No one is spiking with this because it costs 25e and you need /Me for mantra of concentration, otherwise you'll get owned in the face by interrupts. And if you go /Me you'll get owned anyway since your defense will suck. This skill is fine as is. --Symbol 19:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok let's say you interrupt it. You have to interrupt it on 5 other people within 2 seconds. Then you have to interrupt 6 more of them 5 seconds later. No team can keep up with that unless they have at least 3 interrupters, which is impractical. Monks can heal for 3 or 4 rodgort's. Can you honestly deal with the other 2? Keep in mind those eles (or FC mesmers) spam other damage skills between spikes. You'd need to interrupt 6 of those every 5 seconds also. Think about what you say before you say it. Shard 23:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Mesmer can Cry, a ranger can DShot one, then you get your melee in range so that they can DBlow/Shock/Devastating Hammer in their face whenever they try it again. Strip enchant so their energy goes down the drain after 2-3. Equip your fire shield for +18AL against it (so that even your lowest 60AL caster suddenly takes around 25% damage less and can survive 5 of them). Infuse. Use Spirit Bond. Sure they might kill some1 at some point, but if their energy is gone, then they're done afterwards. You're talking as if people never fought Rt Spike or Blood Spike which were MUCH scarier than this because they also packed a bunch of healers. Hell, SF spike wasn't much different than that, was even possibly scarier. It's the same for all spike teams : stop/save 2-3, or at worse rez fast, after that your pressure can overwhelm their ability to spike properly. It was much harder against something like Rt spike that had tons of party-wide defense and healing, but 6 Eles that need tons of energy for RI, and possibly /Me, aren't going to manage to power defense on top. Patccmoi 06:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've played around with this skill in RA (using duel attunements), and while it's a nice skill, it's by no means overpowered. If I get enchantment stripped, I have a problem. If I get interrupted, I have a problem since I don't get energy back. All in all, the skill is good if I'm standing there smacking everyone around, but it doesn't seem so difficult to counter it. I'll play around with it more, but right now it seems to me like a good risk-and-reward trade-off, which is what I support in a game. Servant of Kali 07:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: played several matches in GvG with it. I liked it.. but the same downside remains - whenever mesmer smacks my enchantments, I need to be very very careful with how I spend energy; it feels the same as being crippled as melee. While the skill is definitely good, it's by no means overpowered IMO and has a lot of counters. Servant of Kali 22:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is overpowered imo. Mind Blast is RI's bitch. Readem Warning: Ignore this User if at all possible. 05:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Leave it alone. With the high cost of this spell and fast recharge rate makes it less viable to play around with using with an Offensive elite. With Dual Attunement, you're only as good as long as both holds up once they're gone, you're effed up. There are many ways to counter a build concentrating around Rodgort's Invocation. Renin 09:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

If you get your skills diversioned or dshotted, you stop dealing damage and nothing can "remove" the skill disable. If a Warrior is blinded, support character removes the blind and he can deal damage again. The problem with Fire Magic is that it wants to do DPS, so it wants to cast spells rapidly, but the game is balanced so that other casters get strong utility effects from single casts so that they can play around shutdown. Fire Magic gets screwed over because of this. --TimeToGetIntense 05:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said about Mind Blast, good for the game and fire ele's. The combo has weaknesses.

(reset indent) It is sort of sad that this has more spike potential on 60AL targets than Lightning Hammer (especially with Dual attune and Mind Blast). Lightning Hammer does 130 on 16 air this does 127+burning in nearby range. I think a change that would be beneficial would be to up the burning duration and lower the damage. That way it has the same total damage, just not stackable (sort of like Searing Flames' balance) and less spikey. "Target foe and all nearby foes are struck for 10...82...100 fire damage and set on fire for 1...5...6 seconds. (25/2 cast/5 recharge) " 20 extra damage/14 damage per second burning= 2 to 3 extra seconds. On 14 attribute the disparity is even less since Lightning Hammer would do 115 and Rodgort's Invocation would do 113+burning. Keep in mind unless you run Dual attune, you have no form of energy management in the air line to compensate for 25 energy. I think that is a problem.--Life Infusion «T» 19:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that LH sucks, not that RI is too strong. You don't balance skills by comparing them to shitty ones. --Symbol 03:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ward Against Melee

This skill is very strong, make it 15 energy cost. I don't think it's ok that every mesmer can bring it with no energy problems.Ainvar 11:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think increasing energy would change anything because of gole or auspicious incantation 24 September 2007 (UTC)

WaM is not that strong a skill (well, it's solid, but not overpowered)- it's tied to a location. The troubles with the metagame aren't with WaM, but with LoD and the party-wide defensive game (Aegis, Defensive Anthem); WaM could be countered via AoE pressure, but can't be in practice because of ultra efficient party-wide healing. Despite Izzy saying that an efficient party-wide solution to healing is needed, LoD perpetuates the defensive meta by invalidating pressure tactics as a way to break block-way. WaM itself contributes to block-way, but it was dealt with for years. A blocking cap of some reasonable % would help solve some of the problems associated with WaM, Aegis etc.--Epinephrine 17:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Epi hit the nail on the head: the problem is LoD. A party-wide heal more efficient than Heal Party might be needed, but LoD is overboard. --72.211.152.118 06:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I'm looking at the insane block meta we have and see what I can do to change that, this is one of the offenders. ~Izzy @-'---- 00:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Please dont hit the wrong skill. Ward melee is fine when used by elementalists, you can interrupt it and predict its cast. Its the Mantra of Recovery mesmers who are abusing this otherwise fine skill. Please do not touch ward against melee, its been unchanged for so long and for good reason. Mantra of rccovery has been in need of a hit for such a long time, its the main culprit behind so many broken skill combinations. MoR+diversion and MoR+Ward melee being the two popular examples.--Lorekeeper 14:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

While Mantra of Recovery definitely at least needs its 10 energy cost back and maybe a little less duration too, I think Ward Against Melee is overpowered in itself as long as viable AoE options are nearly nonexistant. --Mysterial 17:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove aftercast delay instead, its terrible. 3 October 2007 (UTC)

"viable AoE options are nearly nonexistant." There are many many MANY viable AoE options that work well. Ward Against Melee seems overpowered against teams that dont come prepared to deal with wards, but thats their choice. Personally playing against teams that ward-camp is fine for us, since we've adapted our build around the ward-camp block-block-block meta that we have at the minute. I'd also suggest remoing the aftercast delay since it it stupid and not there for any particular reason. --ChronicinabilitY 17:52, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

And your examples of viable AoE are...? --Mysterial 21:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The Mind Blasters and Splinter Weapon rits and Trappers that were rather common in the last monthly. --Edru viransu 18:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Splinter Weapon is too small AoE to work against decent teams. Trappers can, so I'll give you that. Mind Blasters, or Elementalists in general, have only two skills that are strong enough in a GvG environment: Rodgort's Invocation and Deep Freeze. That's what - about ten skills total? I think that qualifies as "nearly nonexistant" --Mysterial 04:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Splinter is surprisingly effecting at punishing ward camping because you can have it on all the time. When you have two melee chasing casters camping in a ward, you get a lot of mileage out of that adjacent AoE triggering on every hit. Rodgort's Invocation on a 7s recycle is now beefy enough to serve as your only AoE too. --Symbol 21:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You obviosuly havent thought the elementalists bars through. Searing Heat, and Tenias are both good when combine with MoR and an earthshaker war, especially if they're camping in wards anyways. The traps work fine, Splinter is definately enough if you have warriors who attack properly when they have it on. And there are a whole load of smite skills that work really REALLY well! --ChronicinabilitY 14:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I know i repeat myself, but this skill is perfectly fine on elementalists and only a problem on mesmers with MoR. The two main reasons for the gay meta are overpowered Paragons with tons of damage + defense (WY, SU, DA) and monks with SoD. -Void 15:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

If the meta is so block heavy, then why won't people use "cannot be blocked" skills? There are plenty of those, to the point that they could make Ward Against Melee completely useless. Anyway, I would really dislike seeing this skill nerfed, as it is one of the few things an Earth Elementalist has that makes it uniquely useful to a party. It is good, but I never found it overpowered, unless you compare it to the other wards (some could use a boost IMO). Not nearly as powerful as Aegis or Defensive Anthem anyway. Maybe the 'metagame' should try other things to get around blocking, instead of blindly using melee fighters for damage.Nicky Silverstar 07:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Another I just realized: it only counters vs Melee! How is that overpowered? It doesn't block interrupt rangers, it won't do anything for spells, cannot counter mesmers, will not stop high damage Paragons or Ritualist spirits and it has high recharge and unmovabilty as well. Seriously, Aegis is your problem, maybe some stances. If this blocked ranged as well then it would be worthy of this page.Nicky Silverstar 07:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Most people don't realize how much damage a simple warrior can do just hacking away at the closest target. The reason why wards, blind, and others are so engraved into the meta is because they are neccessary to survival. The only reason why teams don't get steamrolled in two minutes in this game is because of LoD, the backbone of any team, and anti-melee options like Ward against Melee and Blinding Surge provide teams with something that can keep their red bars up. The arguement against passive defences needs to be more thought about. After hexes were nerfed, people realized that their monks couldn't keep up with the damage output of melee chars and placed anti-melee skills onto their bars. Undoubtably, these will be nerfed and then another option will have to be considered. Will teams soon have to take a 3rd non-flagger monk in order to survive the damage pace? Simply nerfing these "passive defences" skills blindly is what gets GW into stupid metas. Pve players will not be happy either. I know this skill will be nerfed tomorrow and everything people wrote will be ignored, so don't be surprised to see this skill in the underpowered section, very soon. 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This has been nerfed with hopes to pull away from yet again some more passive defense. ~Izzy @-'---- 21:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

How about scaling the block chance as well? If people specialize that much in Earth Magic, then they deserve a strong ward, but if not, then why not lower their effectivess a bit?Nicky Silverstar 19:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Doubt it will happen, since Izzy has pretty much eliminated scaled blocking (eg, the guardian buff). Don't think it's all that necessary either. Pluto 06:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Me neither, but apperantly there is a mesmer build that can spam this ward by reducing is recharge, and make it nearly uninterruptable due to Fast Casting. However, they don't put as much points in Earth Magic. Making the blocking scale would keep it the same for Earth Elementalists, on which it isn't overpowered, but nerf it for mesmers that made an unbalanced build with it. That is hoping I understand the PvP wardingmesmer plight correctly... Nicky Silverstar 12:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh wait, I see Izzy has nerfed the elite that caused the problems. Nicky Silverstar 11:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This game needs a blocking cap of 66% or 75%. 72.235.48.41 04:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The game doesn't add the % chance to block, but rather treats blocks separately. For example, if you have SoD and Ward Against Melee on yourself and you're getting attacked by a melee character, the game gives you two simultaneous chances at blocking, once at 75% and a second chance at 50%, which is an 87.5% probability that one of the two skills will block the attack, not a 125% chance to block. So capping at a percentage to block would not work, as there is already no single skill above 75% block. It would have to be a completely different way of calculating the block mechanic with multiple block skills and the current method is probably the simplest option without incredibly reducing the usefulness of a large percentage of the skills in the game. --Rururrur 08:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see people try different skills instead of stopping block. If it HAS to be done, then please boost some can't-be-blocked skills (they seem fine to me, but to fighters apprearantly they don't). Nicky Silverstar 17:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

5..15..18 duration. Everything else stays same. Breakpoint at 14 to equal 16secs, downtime of 5 secs including cast time. --CRASH 04:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? This skill wasn't overpowered before the nerf, it only was part of a larger problem. Making it last 18 seconds even at 16 Earth Magic is just ele bashing, it doesn't solve any problems, since they aren't caused by this skill. It is fine. Powerful, but managable. If you're a decent player, that is. Nicky Silverstar 22:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Glyph of Lesser Energy

You can find it on nearly every caster's bar, because it's simply the best non-elite energy management skill in the game. It's okay for Elementalists, but needs a nerf when used by mesmers, necros, monks, etc, so I suggest something like reducing the energy reduction to 8 for 0 Energy Storage, while being around the same amount as now for Energy Storage 9+. - TeleTeddy 00:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

So, its a 30 seconds recharge, it cost 5 energy and only reduce it by 10 two times, thats a maximum 15 energy gain each 30 seconds, considering that u only have 8 skills and that this takes up one skill slot i dont see where its overpowered. --Cursed Angel 00:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats only 10 seconds more than most Elite energy gain. Done25 01:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

15 points energy every 30s, that's one and a half 'pip'. The fact that you can't spec Energy Storage comes with the fact, that you don't need to. It's a universally applicable energy management skill, which can be used by any caster and doesn't need to be specced. On top of that it's not conditional (unlike Signet of Lost Souls or Essence Strike, for example) - do you need any more reasons that GoLE shouldn't be one of the most effective non-elite energy management skills in play? - TeleTeddy 10:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes --Cursed Angel 10:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Nerfing gole again would affect too many people and too many builds. 87.189.247.181 19:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem with using Glyph of Lesser Energy on say, a monk, means that your two biggest, most important and expensive spells are coming up one right after another and turns you into mesmer food. GoLE isn't nearly as widespread as you'd think and most importantly, it's not even that good for the reason said above. —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 20:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Its no longer overpowered now its linked to energy storage. Now its just an effective skill, you can't ask Izzy to nerf skills just because they are effective. GolE shouldn't be on an overpowered page, for the all the reasons stated above this is a nicely balanced energy management skill. Ajax Baby Eater 16:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

For all the reasons stated above, I disagree... - TeleTeddy 19:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

However, what should also be considerd is the fact that it limits the caster from using another secondary profession, like assassin, for defense. So you're actually trading decent energy management for additional defense. And not super energy management for free...and it is certainly not better than Channeling, even if it doesn't cost any attribute points. Nicky Silverstar 20:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe for that reason it's not overpowered on a monk - a monk better comes with some sort of self defense. But what about Mesmers or Necromancers? For the latter it's an easy way to spam all those 10+ energy anti-melee hexes. Please keep in mind, by no means I want to kill GoLE, I just want to sligthly reduce its effectiveness for non-Elementalists. Maybe recast should be reduced to 25s after the proposed reduction of the energy gain. This way you'd still get less energy (0.44/s instead of 0.5/s), and I consider the fact that you have to use it more often a nerf, too. Yet, it would be not as vulnerable to interrupts and such (due to higher frequency in use). - TeleTeddy 08:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hex removal was buffed like crazy and hexes were nerfed (was good for the game) so I don't see your point. Just consider all the removal options and look at how hard some of the powerful hexes have been hit. As stated above, you don't get any defense from /E secondary. This is important in arenas and for split characters. This skill isn't the end-all solution to every caster build. In GvG it's better to have your Mesmer bring a hard rez, for example. *Sigh* I'm just stating the obvious. Izzy already knows this stuff and this whole discussion is pointless. Why do I keep doing this? --TimeToGetIntense 15:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Scale it from 5 instead of 10. It's definitely too easy to use (0 spec). 72.235.48.41 04:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

When you consider the power this skill gives to an /E, also consider the fact that /E has little to offer casters other than this skill. When using an /Me, you get acces to a lot more useful skills. That is something that should be considered: either 2 good skills or 1 great skill is one of the reasons certain skills are underpowered in one and overpowered in another attribute. I think that principle can be applied here as well. Nicky Silverstar 12:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to wonder if the people suggesting to nerf this even play GW. Most of the time you can't use GoLE because you need a different secondary.

Congratulations, dragging this down to a level where personal accusations of incompetence are made surely will help! - TeleTeddy 14:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually for internet standards that was quite nice. And he is right too. /E isn't a very popular secondary choice. And while theoretically GolE beats most other non elite eManagement skills in efficiency, in reality it is quite hard to get that efficiency. Monks for example have to cast the glyph first (which in the heat of battle they simply can not afford) and then have to cast 2 10+ energy spells in succession, which is also not always the prefered way. And if you want to get the most out of it you rarely can really spam it, because you have to wait till you want to unload those high energy spells. Beetlejuice 17:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

If you make this less useful for non-eles then the other professions need to have their energy management buffed which will lead to abuse by other professions unless linked to primaries. At current it makes the game work and casters can do stuff. Leave as is unless all or most energy solutions are tinkered with. --CRASH 04:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The GoLE nerf was one of the better nerfs ANet has done, they did it and ACTUALLY ADDRESSED THE PROBLEM! Non-eles were getting too much from it, so they moved the skill to Energy Storage, put it on a scale, and now Eles still get the old benefit while non-eles get less benefit. If ONLY they had put that kind of thought into balancing all the mesmer energy management skills that they simply trashed because other professions were using them. --Epinephrine 16:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Blinding Surge

Trying to shut down BSurge is way too much of a priority in GvG. That's like 90% of the Mesmer's job these days. Isn't it getting boring? Also, I think this skill forces condition removal to be really strong and therefore indirectly makes weak conditions like Bleeding really pointless. I think the problem with this skill is cooldown, not duration. If the duration was nerfed, people wouldn't even bother to remove it. I guess the concern is that this skill keeps heavy physical in check... Well, I think if this skill was nerfed and other options were buffed, the game would benefit and diversity would happen. --TimeToGetIntense 16:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not overpowered IMHO, but considering how the blocking debate went, I'll guess this will get nerfed pretty soon. It is no better than Broad Head Arrow (considering you need to constantly re-apply it instead of once every 15 seconds), but I have yet to see a caster whine about dazed. Nicky Silverstar 17:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between Blind and Daze. If you are Blind, you are shut down without any further effort from the enemy. You're not going to hit anything. If you're dazed, you can still cast spells at double cast time, but if an enemy hits you, you get interrupted. There has to be an enemy attacking you to make Daze really work. Since Daze shuts down enemy defense, of course it is less powerful and harder to apply. I don't see why you made that skill comparison. Broadhead Arrow can be dodged really easily unless it's fired very close up and it has to hit through blocking and stuff.

Blinding Surge might not seem overpowered if you just look at how GvGs get played, but consider that this skill is powerful enough to force teams to bring specific skills and the power of condition removal skills right now is balanced with Blinding Surge but makes most condition skills a joke. --TimeToGetIntense 21:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Dazed is just as powerful on casters as blindness is on fighters. They wouldn't put dazed on you if they didn't intend to hit you often enough to interrupt 90% of your spells. And my point was, that while Blinding Surge is powerful enough to constantly shut down a fighter, it is also very energy intensive, something BHA is not. And without BS, teams would still bring that much condition remoal, because there are a lot of conditions to remove. Dazed, Blindness and Deep Wound are all common enough threats, with or without the existence of Blinding Surge. The other conditions are annoying enough to warrent lots of condition removal. So basically, I am saying that while BS is powerful, it is no more powerful than Blurred Vision or any other shutdown skill, because it is so energy intensive, especially if the blindness gets removed constantly. Removing costs less energy than applying it. Nicky Silverstar 08:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Warriors and Paras have the option to run Runes of Clarity and Shields with 20% shorter Blind duration effectively reducing an 8 second blind duration down to 4.8 seconds, long enough for a good b-surge to stop a spike or reduce pressure where needed, but difficult to maintain on multiple targets over extended periods. Dervish commonly run Melandru/Wearying so they're not as prone to blind, rangers are going to bring Mending Touch regardless of blind in the meta or not just for the fact that it's a necessary skill for splitting, assassins can run Runes of Clarity as well reducing blind an 8 second blind duration to 6.4 seconds which can become an issue on a professions with relatively long cool downs, but are usually ganking rather than fighting at flag stands which would effectively remove the B-Surge from the main fight if the sin was having to deal with it. Factor in the mediocre damage this skill does and it hardly seems overpowered. --Rururrur 08:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this whole passive defense and blockway debate is going the wrong way. Did no one ever think about considering the root of the problem? Why is it that everyone packs up on block skills? Because 90% of the damage comes from melee attacks. There is a very easy counter for every single kind of block skill, that is spell damage. This just isn't viable, because there is a huge discrepancy between spell damage and melee damage. Spelldamage does less dps, is less spiky and much less sustainable. Its just vastly inferior in any aspect but the immunity to block chances. And that is obviously not enough to balance it. Improve spell damage options (at least to a point where they are options at all) and all those teams who load up on block skills will stand there with half of their skillbars beeing completely useless. Beetlejuice 06:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

True, but the poblem also stems from the way the metagame thinks. People rather bring skills with bigger damage numbers than unblockable skills, even if those skills get blocked so often that then unblockable skills would do more damage. Also, when considering melee fighters, they have several other advantages besides damage output. High armor for example. That makes the very attractive, since they have less liabilities and higher (pure) damage output, not to mention great energy management due to adrenaline skills...I agree, spells should do relatively more damage. My vote goes to nerfing physical a bit, instead of power creep. One way to do it might be to change the weapon mods (see other discussion) Nicky Silverstar 07:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Warriors are used because they have 3 second knockdowns. Warriors can chain KDs for long periods of time, especially if coordinated well with eachother. On the other hand, spell attributes focused on damage have little or no disable/utility, and as I pointed out under Rodgort's Invocation, shutting down spellcasters involves disabling skills which is a non-removable effect and the skills which do that work especially well on casters who spam. A spell line focused on DPS demands that you spam spells or you lose DPS. This puts you at high risk of being shut down without hope of recovery.

Physical damage is not overpowered. Spell damage is just completely unviable. If your damage sources are not able to do damage you pose no threat. With no way to remove the shutdown, this can and will happen to a team who relies on spell damage.

Anyway, I think there is a problem when one elite is being used so often and is such a high priority to shut down. --TimeToGetIntense 11:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This is an anti-warrior skill in its purest form, and it should stay the way it is. Melee has lost a lot of counters with the blocking nerfs, and this is an active, interruptable skill, so it can stay like it is. That is just my opinion though. Spellcasters are already struggling to keep up with fighters, this spell lets them compete. Taking it away means another reason not to bring an Elementalist in PvP (and there are plenty of reasons not to take one already). Nicky Silverstar 10:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this skill should be nerfed really hard, I just think it's a bit too strong now. I don't hope that it gets "taken away" at all. I just think it would be more fair with a longer cooldown. --TimeToGetIntense 13:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as it takes less energy and effort to remove the blindness than to apply it, then it does not have to be changed in my opinion. The damage Blinding Surge deals to melee characters isn't really great (especially compared to the damage they can deal themselves), and with 10 energy, it isn't that easy to use constantly either. Skills like Mending Touch can remove the blindness as soon as it is applied, and thus BS needs the low cooldown in order to stay effective. With a longer cooldown, you kill this skill, unless you make the condition removal skills less powerful too. It is just too easy to counter, and countering it costs less than the skill itself. That's just my opinion though. Nicky Silverstar 12:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think some condition removal skills are too strong. Dismiss Condition, Mending Touch and Restore Condition. They are necessary with Blinding Surge the way it is, but otherwise conditions are very weak now. --TimeToGetIntense 13:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)--63.197.80.39 13:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

So if a nerf were to be applied to Blinding Surge, I believe those condition removal skills would need a small nerf too, because there is no way to nerf BS and not destroy the skill in PvP otherwise. Nicky Silverstar 09:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Who uses bsurge except euros :/? --Readem 23:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah BSurge really fell out of the meta recently. I still think conditions aren't quite balanced because the weak conditions that need time to work can never stick. Maybe it's more a problem with the split meta being total shit though. --TimeToGetIntense 23:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Mind Blast

Nets you 2-4 energy and 50-60 life advantage every 3 seconds.

No skill should be gain-gain. Ever.

Lower energy return and increase recharge to something less godly.

Edited because wikipedia fails at reading newlines. 72.235.48.41 10:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Mind Blast is fine, people really need to stop just looking at numbers and thinking "oh that must be imba it looks good", Look at the state of the game for a change and you will realise there is no problem at all with Mind Blast. --ChronicinabilitY 14:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's damage is relatively weak (for an elite anyway, but also when compared to let's say Flare) and its energy gain will only help you when you have no energy problems, so the only thing I have against this is that it is not in Energy Storage. Otherwise, it is ok. It is no more powerful than Ferocious Strike. Nicky Silverstar 12:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

My comments were all removed from this page. Who did that? Nicky Silverstar 20:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently you removed them, maybe someone else got your password. -- Gordon Ecker 02:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On second though, it seems more likely that you accidentally edited an out of date version of the page. -- Gordon Ecker 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well in that case, I'm sorry for the inconvienience I caused. My humble apologies. Nicky Silverstar 09:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I know it's not seen in gvg much, but any ele running this in smaller arenas has a nearly bottomless energy pool with solid, no-risk DPS. Not necessarilly broken, just a little too imba. 72.235.48.41 09:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd make it an Energy Storage skill and add 1 point to the recharge time. It would make more sense that way, would make it a little less imbalanced and would give the rest of the attributes a decent e-management/damge elite to work with. I don't see why fire should have all the fun. Nicky Silverstar 11:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat myself again. Spam spells get diversioned. This skill is kept very harshly in check when it comes to GvG. --TimeToGetIntense 11:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Nicky up there, but don't add recharge. Then you have a Mind ____ skill under every attribute. No one runs 14+ EStorage, so it is balanced that way. AMAZING utility with less damage (less atts for damage) or Energy to power damage. ~~ frvwfr2 (talk · contributions) 01:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok so i'm know i'm repeating myself...but there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS SKILL...so therefore don't change it. Simple. --ChronicinabilitY 18:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ich find schon. Meiner Meinung nach sollte er den gleichen Schaden machen wie Flare und nich weniger. Beetlejuice 23:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Babel fish says:I find already. According to my opinion it should make the same damage as Flare and nich less. ~~ frvwfr2 (talk · contributions) 23:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, don't know what i was smoking that day. Did not even realize that i was writing in german. I just said that i indeed think that there is something wrong with this skill and that would be that i think that it should do same damage as flare and not less. Beetlejuice 11:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Why should fire get to have all the fun, when it does nothing 'fiery' at all? I don't want it to overshadow any other energy gain elites though. 87.210.150.58 09:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Low Damage and one of the most easily Diverted or D-Shot skills in the game. Even in small arenas, any interrupter can keep a Mind Blaster to minimum damage. If you can't interrupt a two second Rodgorts Invocation, which is really the only reason people started complaining about this skill, you need to reconsider your team build. Any decent E-surge Mes can have this build completely shutdown in less than 30 seconds just by removing the attunement, Power Leaking, E-Surge, and E-Burn a couple times. Catch it with Diversion when the Ele is on it's high sets getting it's energy back. It's balanced simply because it's low damage and builds using it are incredibly easy to shutdown. --Rururrur 13:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You would have to be really bad to get Mblast dshotted :/. Diverted, sure (which is the reason bad people in HA use Hex Breaker). Still, mindblast is probably the best Ele Elite in the game. It might need a nerf, but personally I enjoy the versatility it allows. --Readem 23:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Somebody check my vital signs, I actually agree with this guy for a change. Nicky Silverstar 08:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No, see, a bad Mind Blaster will have all his skills disabled in 10 seconds or so, a good Mind Blaster won't be casting often enough to do any kind of pressure. He will be reduced to casting only when his team calls a spike or whenever he can sneak casts by the enemy Mesmer/Ranger. This gets even worse in 8v8. --TimeToGetIntense 19:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This skill is good for the game and fire ele's in general. The meta-combo has weaknesses exploit them. --CRASH 04:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Marksman's Wager nets you 10 energy every time you hit and no one cares. A nerf to Mind Blast would simply kill Rodgort's Invocation. 87.189.202.112 14:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't deal any damage, and Rangers generally don't need energy, so its effect means less to a Ranger than this means to an Elementalist. At least, that is how I interpet it.Nicky Silverstar 16:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The thing about Mind Blast is it is in Fire Magic. Fire Magic has no utility. If it was in Energy storage, Blinding Flash/Lightning Hammer/Lightning Orb/Stoning/Vapor Blade/Freezing Gust/Ebon Hawk/Icy Prism/Windborne Speed/Ice Spikes (not really)/Deep Freeze (not really) would be spammed all day and this would probably not have Fire damage and chaos damage instead (like Overload). That's not considering secondary skills (if it was in energy storage that would be inevitable...like Ether Prodigy) such as Shield Guardian, Heal Other, Healing ribbon, Spirit Bond, Protective Spirit, Heal Party (even more so than in current Fire-Heal mixes), Healing Breeze (lol), Chilblains, Angorodon's Gaze, Deathly Swarm (not really), Clumsiness, Conjure Nightmare, Conjure Phantasm, Soothing Images, Fragility (not really),Ghostly Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Resilient Weapon, Weapon of Warding, Guided Weapon,Spirit Rift, Vital Weapon, Mirage Cloak. Basically anything over 10 energy with low recharge or anything 5 energy with abysmally low recharge (1-2 seconds). It is a delicate balance really.--Life Infusion «T» 19:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that all the secondary combinations that you mention are already possible now (against the right target, with the right equipment, you can go 12/12/3, the third being energy storage, and still have more energy than anything but an elementalist). Second, the Elementalist has plenty of energy mangement to make all those spells spammable. So all it would do is increase the (low) DPS of the Elementalist a bit, without increasing their spiking power. Basically, you're probably right, but you haven't convinced me. Nicky Silverstar 21:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If anything it belongs in Earth Magic since There's Mind Burn, Mind Freeze, and Mind Shock. And then you can slap on armor ignoring damage and reduce the damage by 25-33% and say its because it is earth magic. --Life Infusion «T» 00:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd still rather see it as a universal energy management skill than a a specific one for a certain Element, but that's just me. Personally, I'd add a few seconds to recharge if it proved too powerful. Nicky Silverstar 08:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It would need a significant buff if it were to be useful in Energy Storage. As it is now, 40% of the gain comes from the attunement. It would be a rather questionable decision to put 13-14 in ES for one skill that can provide 3 energy every 3 seconds. --24.179.151.252 13:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But it also deals damage (armor ignoring in E-storage?)...so you can keep dealing damage while you gain energy. I see the problems that switching it would cause. It is more of a "why does Fire get all the good stuff" rather than a 'this skill must change' problem to me. If it doesn't get changed, I won't mind. Nicky Silverstar 20:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

fire only seems to "get the good stuff" because the only elements are limited heavily due to having extremely strong utility (Blinding Surge/Blinding Flash/freezing gust/icy shackles/shell shock, Obsidian Flame, Shatterstone, and Magnetic Surge for spike assist/Eruption in PVE/Blurred Vision/water snares in general/Ward against melee which was recently nerfed). What does Fire have? a speed boost with crazy aftercast (flame djinn's haste), Meteor Shower (3 knockdowns in adjacent range). The second Mind Blast becomes energy storage Fire basically lost its appeal because there was nothing saving it from being a one trick pony of damage (Searing Flames is the perfect example). Savannah's Heat, while good damage wise, is pretty useless in places other than HA and tank-nuke-heal high end pve setups (Breath of Fire/Firestorm to an extent also go here because of adjacent range and no utility) because any person with a brain gets out after the second pulse of damage meaning you just had Lava Arrows' damage. Basically Earth DoT AoES are better than Fire AoEs due to being in a line with utility (and most of them have useful effects)so really you have skills that do little on their own: Glowing Gaze/Smoldering Embers/Mark of Rodgort/Flame Djinn's Haste and AOES: Fireball/Liquid Flame/Rodgort's Invocation (unlike the other skills, only viable with Ele attunement and Mind blast)/Incendiary Bonds as the only non-DoT and non-PBAoE...which is extremely shallow at best. --Life Infusion «T» 02:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Fire deals (a lot) more damage than the other elements as a balance for it's lack of support, has 3 PvP-worthy elites (Water has 2, Air has 1 and Earth...well, basically the entire line suffers from the Savannah Heat problem) and finds great support in the burning that it can apply as easily as Sever Artery can apply bleeding. I understand the reasoning behind it (you've explained it well). When considering the fact that most support effects can be used without 16 attributes (Deep Freeze, Eruption, Gale) but the damage cannot, then I still think that Fire has gotten more love than the rest of the elements, and so doesn't need Mind Blast exclusively. Nicky Silverstar 08:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

this is skill not overpowered at all , moving this to mind blast would just make this deal armor ignoring damage , then people would whine about ele spike , and then this would be nerfed into oblivio. leave this skill the way it is now , go whine about other skills , but don't kill such an excellent skill like this 189.70.208.9 18:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I never said it should be dealing armor ignoring damage. Just that I like it to stay exactly the way it is now, but in Energy Storage. Nicky Silverstar 21:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright now that everyone is done complaing consider the following: ADDING MIND BLAST TO ENERGY STORAGE IS A BUFF NOT A NERF, IT WOULD BE MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE AND WOULD MAKE ALL ELEMENTAL ATRIBUTE SKILLS MORE SPAMMABLE, I personaly dont think mind blast should be buffed so that it could better cooperate with water/air/earth skills, I belive that an ele can easily run 14 energy storage if mind blast was in there and since when is ENERGY STORAGE supposed to have spammable damage???

No, it would be a huge nerf. Mind Blast is so good because it allows a damage based Elementalist to gain a lot of energy without speccing in another attribute for energy management. This means you can multi-spec very well. The current meta Mind Blast ele in GvG runs Blinding Flash, Gale and Mystic Regeneration and only has like 7-8 Energy Storage. You would not be able to make a multi-spec Elementalist with Mind Blast if it was in E-Storage because the attribute like gives you no useful skills, so you'd be pure whatever element and it wouldn't be a very versitile skillbar. --TimeToGetIntense 14:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That was exactly my point: make it more flexible. And make Energy Storage an attribute worth investing in, there is currently no real reason to go beyond 10. Like TTGI said, there is even little reason to go beyond 8... Nicky Silverstar 15:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's too powerful to damage foes,because it will spend NOTHING(even take you more energy)!!Maybe some way can make it more balance like that "recharge for 3 seconds, if you gain energy by this,this skill recharge for addtional (about) 5 second(or more). -- duceethar

Savannah Heat

Oh yes, you knew it was coming. Everyone in the guildwars PvP population can agree that this is one of the if not THE most overpowered skill in the entire game.

What I think should be done.

10 energy 3 Second cast 45 Second recharge

I think that starting with as little as a nerf that is would really start to help PvP out... --'ÑöẊĭƑý 21:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This skill is fine. It barely sees any GvG play. --TimeToGetIntense 00:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

If GvG NPCs stand in ADOT effects, they need better AI, if stand in ADOT effects, they'll eventually figure out it's a bad idea. -- Gordon Ecker 01:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing about GvG, but as far as HA goes, trying to stand on an altar with 58126412874 AOE spells hurts...

Plus, in Relic Run, ghostly sits at the shrine and does not move (im not talking about HoH rr) a single ele can take him out very quickly while taking no damage himself.--'ÑöẊĭƑý 04:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think only SH-way uses this :/. And that is a gimmick build. --Readem 04:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It is only overpowered compared to other AoE spells if the 4th and 5th pulse hit. At pulse three, it has dealt just as much damage as any comperable AoE spell (40 damage per second) and since that is usually the second people in PvP leave the area of effect, I'd say that it is ok for the most part. It is the bonus damage on second 4 and 5 that makes it worth its elite status, otherwise it would be worse than Eruption or Searing Heat. The energy cost could be raised a bit, but that wouldn't change anything in practice.Nicky Silverstar 07:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)