User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Paragon/Archive 2

Skills

"Stand Your Ground!"

Not so good on splits and nonremovable front-loaded instant cast armor is bad. Maybe instead of "For 5...17...20 seconds, all party members within earshot receive +24 armor when not moving." (15 energy, 30 recharge) something like "For 2...4...5 seconds, all knocked down party members stand up. Party members below 75% Health gain 0...1...2 strikes of adrenaline." (10 energy, 10 recharge) like a Ward of Stability that acts as a twitch skill. This would also act as a counter to assassin knockdown chains, warriors with stonefist gauntlets, and gale-lock. 10 recharge is exactly that of Shock. Inspired by STAND UP!, Never Give Up, and Never Surrender. I was thinking adrenaline gain at first, then it occurred to me Bull's Strike, Frenzy, sprint are all energy based. Alternately, "For 2...4...5 seconds, all party members' melee attacks cannot be blocked by attacking foes. Knocked down party members stand up." (10 energy, 10 recharge) OR "For 2...4...5 seconds, all party members' melee attacks do +4...6...8 damage against attacking foes. Knocked down party members stand up." (10 energy, 10 recharge)" Let's make the Paragon into a support class again --Life Infusion «T» 21:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

On second thought 20 recharge would be better given how often shadow steps work. Shock has the exhaustion drawback.--Life Infusion «T» 21:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Warriors with stonefist are fine... -- Armond Warblade 21:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

there aren't many anti knockdowns that aren't passive. Aura of Stability and Ward of Stability are both really narrow. Brace Yourself is similar to the suggested change but Stand Your Ground is more active than "next time". Balthazar's Pendulum is a joke. Fleeting Stability is only usable on self. This suggestion was an attempt to remedy the lack of knockdown counters and the armor stacking capability of Stand Your Ground. --Life Infusion «T» 02:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

"Incoming!"

conceptually bad from the start since it reduces armor ignoring damage. Maybe a better thing to do would've been "For 1...8...10 seconds, all party members within earshot have +40 armor against physical attacks and projectiles. "Incoming!" ends on an ally affected by this Shout when that ally uses a skill. " (15 energy, 15 recharge) I think this reflects the idea of a commander saying "incoming arrows/melee etc". I think once you engage in combat it is no longer the idea of "Incoming" but "Charge!" instead. --Life Infusion «T» 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

That would make it even more useless than now. 1. Extreme cost(gtfe no longer brings in enough energy) 2. Armor no longer stacks, making this skill less powerful if you already have +20 AL from Watch yourself 3. Doesn't reduce damage from elementalist spells = ghey 4. ends on skill for complete uselessness. This suggestion sucks. --193.95.217.70 12:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Gtfe brings in enough energy to fuel 15e shouts. Incoming (-15e, +6e), gtfe (+6e) and you're only down 3 energy; for a defensive elite 3 energy isn't a ton.

Armor no longer stacks, but this version of incoming wouldn't be for teams entirely comprised of paras and wars, it'd be for balanced teams (which would most likely not have WY).

Yeh, "incoming" should still be a viable anti-spike skill, so the not reducing elemental damage is really lame.

I agree that ending on skill would be severely limiting, especially on top of the already-limited skill LI suggested. Maybe ends on skill that targets an enemy? -Auron 13:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Armor stacking nerf is the only reason why I suggested +40Armor to physical. If stacks were possible it would be insanity. The idea was making it limiting so that it really will be used against physical heavy meta. Defensive Anthem has the blocking covered, so really it comes down to armor. If you're kiting you're not using a skill, which is when this skill shines. I think Incoming shouldn't be a "fire and people are invincible" (especially in teams with 3 monks...). Should be "fire and get out of melee bashing in your face". Then again you can change the part about Physical to "and elemental damage" considering there are few sources of elemental armor. I just can't see flavor to "Incoming!" meaning spells incoming (unless they are projectile spells like Fireball/spear of Light/etc. How about ""For 1...8...10 seconds, all party members within earshot have +40 armor against physical and elemental damage. "Incoming!" ends on an ally affected by this Shout when that ally uses a skill." (15 energy, 15 recharge" --Life Infusion «T» 22:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not sure about the ending on skill usage, which would make it a bit more limited, but this is putting it more in the realms of making a single Paragon useful in a team which I applaud. Ajax Baby Eater 23:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ending on skill use is still a dumb idea. Who uses Song of Power? Exactly 0 people. At any one point you will have on average 2 ppl kiting out of 8. They will kite 3 sec then use a skill. Who the hell would take an elite that costs insane amount of energy just to have 2 people on party have +40 AL vs physical for 3 sec? Who would take an elite that can be simply defeated by switching to elemental weapon mod? If you wanna make a skill that is worthwhile that helps people who kite: For 1..20 sec all allies in earshot have +40 AL while moving. End on attack. 20 recharge. IT IS A FRICKEN ELITE. If I can get +20 unconditional AL all the time from non-elite Watch Yourself, then elite that only works on moving allies and ends on attack better give +40! Duration 20 sec, recharge 20 sec makes it same crap with 1 or 23 paragon on team. Notice also that I wrote allies instead of party members. NPCs generally stand still, so it is not problematic, at the same time "allies" makes it better in AB. --193.77.133.232 18:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And how would you remedy chaining this on multiple paragons if it didn't end on skill use? Defensive Anthem has a similar problem (it ends on attack skill use). Maybe ends when using a skill on a foe? --Life Infusion «T» 02:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Why chain duration 20 sec recharge 20 sec shout that ends on attack? Reapplying will only affect those people have lost it by attacking, and they will probably lose it again in a second. I'm confused. Or better question...what's wrong with paragon giving +40 AL to moving allies who aren't attackers 24/7? You can already give +20 AL to all with non-elite 24/7. --193.77.18.248 12:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind Watch Yourself is adrenaline, so it can only be used with skills likje To The limit or Enraging charge to be frontloaded. Energy based +40 armor would be stronger (akin to Shields Up!) since it cannot be adrenaline denied or shut off with block, miss,blind, Soothing Images. --Life Infusion «T» 01:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"Elite Shout. For 1...3...5 seconds, all party members within earshot take 25% less damage." 5 Energy and 10 Recharge. Now this skill isn't bull---t anymore and won't become OP again... Cool, isn't it? ^.^ A. von Rin 02:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

2x of these plus Watch Yourself plus Shields Up plus Wards and Aegis/DA chains = enjoy your forty minute GvG. --24.9.234.253 03:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

"Can't Touch This!"

I really, really wish I could use this skill more often, even if it's just to see the speech bubble over my character's head! But it's usage is just too darn narrow. I have an idea to make it useful in more situations. I'm thinking a 10 or 15 energy single target shout, pretty short duration (maybe 1...3, 4 at 15 Command), and a recharge of 12~15. It would make the next Touch Skill or Attack Skill fail against the target and be disabled for a moderate amount. This would make it still useful in its original purpose against touchers. But it would see reasonable use as an anti attack/spike skill. Recharge and cost could be tweaked for balance. Also, you folks seem to really want more active forms of defense rather than the heaps of passive defense that paragons have. Despite being a shout, this change would be a very active skill, requiring much attention and decisiveness. --Heelz 10:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't make it useful it all. Disabling any one of an enemy Warrior's skills is going to make little difference for the outcome of the game. Even if you took out his whole skillbar, he's still able to push out 20~25ish DPS. Why do you think no one uses Wail of Doom?--TimeToGetIntense 10:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually it WOULD make it useful... it would be a very good adrenal spike saver that slows the next spike since the skill is disabled too. I wonder if it wouldn't be too good... Wail of Doom just can't be compared, it's elite, costs 15E, has to interrupt, has a life sac on top... nothing like a non-elite shout that targets an ally. Patccmoi 11:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I still disagree. An Axe Warrior in Frenzy getting on a spike target will easily contribute maybe 80~100+ damage without attack skils. He also has the potential to reach peak DPS and contribute 150+ damage in a few seconds... Without attack skills. Blinding Flash/Blinding Surge seems like a much stronger spike stopper because of this, or even inflicting Weakness. I'd say if "Can't Touch This!" knocked the guy down and/or snared him for a few seconds it would be pretty useful for this purpose, but maybe overpowered.--TimeToGetIntense 12:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This skill could use some buffage, It started out as an earshot effect and I don't think the numbers have been fully adjusted for single application. The only time I've seen this used is vs Touch rangers, which is good, but this could probably use a little boost. ~Izzy @-'----

I personally think this skill should prevent ALL touch skills over a certain duration, instead of a number of touches over a long duration. Something like... 1..5..10 second duration would work nicely, as the main thing this protects against is a touch ranger, and they burn through those failed touches in no time at all... Maybe not as long as 10 seconds at max, but some duration with infinite touch prevention. Like Spell Breaker. Some conditional and/or short duration touch prevention.--Devvu

I've personally been running a Touch Ranger for a few days now in Random Arenas, and it's surprising to see how well it works against some defenses and how weak it is to others. "Can't Touch This!" doesn't do crap against me; even with Command up high enough to get "CTT!" at 5, that's a mere five energy's worth of Plague Touches, which I can fire off in about two seconds. I'm running at full power within seconds, with minimal loss on my part.

What I have been running into is a lot of Mesmers with Diversion... having even one of my touch skills disabled for 30+ seconds is absolutely devastating, as it cuts both my healing and damage output in half. I like the first suggestion for the skill, causing touch skills to fail and become disabled, even if only for a short time. With "CTT!" at 3 with that effect, I've got to waste Plague Touch, Throw Dirt, and one of my main touches, just so I can regain half of my DPS against the target. Keep it as an anti-touch skill; it's got a narrow usage, and that's not a problem. Just make it so it can do that narrow use better. Lower the number of affected skills by one maybe, and add in a disabling effect for about 8-16 seconds. With a 20second recharge, a simple 10 second disable is enough to halve the toucher's DPS and healing for about half the time, which is a pretty good deal IMO. -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Being purely anti-touch is actually quite a disadvantage. Is it worth using a skill slot to counter ONE build that you MIGHT see? This skill is borderline useless in PvE, except that exploit in that challenge mission. In PvP, it isn't worth the skill slot to counter one build. You can't even make a build with this in it. Sure it could just be a filler skill, but this just can't fit into an actual build. --Deathwing 07:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't even work in that challenge mission anymore. One of my GW pet peeves is extremely narrowly focused skills. Seems like most of them are paragon related. So many anti-paragon skills are narrow (incidentally, I love Ulcerous Lungs for still being useful if you're not even against shouters/chanters). And this, like many paragon skills, is extremely narrow in use. Not to blow my own horn, but I really think my suggestion would be a great change for this, but maybe they could tone it down a little. --Heelz 07:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Might even be useful if it was like:

5e 0c 10/15r. If target foe is attacking or using a Touch Skill that foe is interrupted. If this interrupts a skill, that skill is disabled for 1...10...13 seconds.

Maybe that would be too strong against attack skills though, so maybe only disabling touch skills? Edit: On second though, being a shout would make it too strong. It would kill any melee spikes. --Deathwing 08:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think keeping it a preemptive self-buff is best; but maybe widening the effect, yes. Make it only work on touch skills and melee attacks... it won't affect ranged attacks, but keeping it close-range gives it a bit more use, and keeps with the "Can't Touch This!" theme. Maybe make it disable touch skills and block melee attack skills? By giving it a "block" mechanism, it doesn't turn from a Toucher-hoser into a SP 'Sin-hoser (because 'Sins can use Expose Defenses and whatnot to avoid having their chains messed up), but it does give it a bit more versatility. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it should make the few next skills (including Attack Skills, spells don't count) used against you, fail/miss. I mean, getting hit with an Axe counts as 'touching' as well, right? :p Saph 16:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Keep it a "block" mechanism though for attack skills, and "disable" for touch skills. Making attack skills "miss" would just make every Paragon pack this along to become invincible against melee-based spikes. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps they could consider making it a spamable earshot ability, and change it to a single effect. Giving it utility and effective touch counter would make the difference. Lets try.

10 energy, 10 second duration, 10 second recharge, blocks the next attack skill or disables the next touch skill for 5-17...20 seconds. The utility is very useful, perhaps too useful since it would block a single attack skill, or disable a single touch skill.

Perhaps that is too much, even if it lacked the attack counter, it would still be very useful, since disabling one touch is better than blocking 5 uses of a fast one, and it gives it real defensive use, since it helps allies, on oneself it is just a private counter which will likely be overlooked for undefended targets.--BahamutKaiser 16:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Add better effect to see whats going on & reduce recharge time. 87.189.229.209 22:48, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem with this skill is that it doesn't do anything at all. It doesn't even counter touchers, they burn through fails in no time with little energy loss. And it would be much better if you could target an ally with it, to protect warriors from blackout and in PvE to protect tank from toucher mobs. It is very narrow and it even fails at that(countering touchers). :( --193.77.133.54 19:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Might be interesting if it were an enemy targeted shout, able to suppress a single enemy's touches at a decent investment. Something like "Target foe's touch skills are disabled for 5..13..15 seconds." (5 energy, 15 second recharge) - this would allow a paragon to selectively disable the shock on a shock-axe, handle a toucher with ease, or in a skirmish disable the Mendng Touch that fuels an enemy's condition removal. Not overpowered in most sitautions, but typically will be able to take out a skill on someone's bar, even if not a vital one; being able to negate touch skills from one enemy is unlikely to ruin them (unless it's a toucher). --Epinephrine 15:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant. Hat off to you sir. --193.77.20.198 22:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You severely underestimate the power of these three skills. Being able to permanently disable them is overpowered. -- Armond Warblade 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that they are potent. For one thing, the numbers I suggested were suggestions, they can be tweaked. Secondly, if Paragons start carrying "Can't Touch This!" and investing heavily enough in Command to do serious shut down, teams will adapt - they'll bring back Gale warriors, varied disenchants, and rely more on drawing conditions or packing the older skills to deal with them. Then "Can't Touch This!" will be less advantageous, so it'll fade a bit, and the other skills will come back a bit, until a stable equilibrium is reached. Between metagame shifts and tweaks to the values, a decent but not overpowered skill could come out. --Epinephrine 23:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

i was thinking of something like the "next x..y..z" attacks against party members will be blocked" , and make it party wide effect , this would make this a usefull skill

Focused Anger

Well, it's underpowered since it's still broken. Adrenaline gain cap is maxed at 100%. Maestro Ed 02:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought that was only stacked Adrenaline gain from multiple sources, but I'm not sure. -- Gordon Ecker 03:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Maestro is right. Adrenaline gain is capped at +100%. —ǥȓɩηɔɧ〚₮/ḉ〛 04:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right, at least according to this skill's talk page on GuildWiki the cap applies to all adrenaline gain. The September 20th, 2006 update notes are ambiguous, and, at the time of the update notes, no single adrenaline gain skill could boost adrenaline gain above 200% (Soldier's Fury was 0...72...90), so there would be no difference between capping all adrenaline gain or only capping stacked adrenaline gaim from multiple skills. -- Gordon Ecker 04:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It was said (either on GWO or on the other wiki) that Focused Anger has been fixed already. Are you guys sure it's still not working? Erasculio 05:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I'm testing it right now ... -- Gordon Ecker 05:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

All three 7 strike Paragon skills take 4 hits to fully charge at 16 Leadership. At 260%, they would only take 3 hits to charge. -- Gordon Ecker 06:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What about giving it a fixed +100% Adrenaline and giving it a variable duration? -- Gordon Ecker 03:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You'd want to scale the duration from something like 5...41...50 so Warriors won't use it like a Battle Rage. Not that they would, but let's not give the RA guy any ideas. A scaling duration would be a nerf imo, how often do you want to run more than 12 leadership? ~Seef II <☎|→> 06:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It depends on how high the duration scales. If the duration is still 45 seconds at 10 Leadership, it'd be a buff. -- Gordon Ecker 06:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The duration at 10 leadership would make sense, as that is how it currently is. Then every point about that is icing on the cake.-Rakeman 17:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Fix the cap. Every other limit is not limited by a SINGLE skill use, ie, armor limit is not limited by use of "Save Yourselves!" speed boost limit is not limited by Dash. So why impose a limit on this SINGLE skill? Fix it please.--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:147.226.212.95 .

In light of change of "For Great Justice!" bonus from 50% to 100%, it makes this elite a joke. --193.77.133.54 19:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we REALLY need to see something done about this skill, as it's possibly the most obvious bug in an elite skill out there. Axel Zinfandel 06:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Either 5e cost or maintainable would be a decent fix. Making this maintainable (without having to spec 16 lead or something retarded) won't break PvP or PvE; what are you going to do, spam GtfE more often? :/ (and in pve, SY builds already have no problem maintaining the shout, whether it be from FGJ dslash or from this). -Auron 13:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Help Me!"

Two options here, really:

1. For x..y seconds, the next 1..2 spells cast on you by an ally have their attributes raised by 1..2.
2. For x..y seconds, the next 2..5 spells cast on you by target other ally have their attributes raised by 1..2.

Possibly chuck in a faster activation time too, I dunno. I don't want it to be able to affect spells you use because that's just begging for abuse, farming or otherwise. Armond 06:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

What about "target other ally's spells targeting you recharge 50% faster" would make it an awsome tank skill in DoA. however, with the current mechanics, it would never ever be used in pvp until completely reworked. --Ineluki 11:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I say change the cooldown to 45 seconds and its fuction to, Shout. For 1...8...10 seconds, other allies' Spells targeting you cast 50% faster, whenever a spell targeting an ally is cast within earshot that spell is cast on you aswell, when this shout ends you lose all enchantments.--85.225.130.44 17:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What about a total rework: Song of Aid (Chant) 5/.5/30 The next x..y..z skills cast on target ally by other allies activate 50% faster and have their attributes raised by 1. (Wisteria, too lazy to log)71.146.86.17 05:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

In retrospect, raising attributes by a miniscule amount means nothing if you're not reaching breakpoints, which you should be doing anyway... -- Armond Warblade 07:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Faster activation is rather pointless, since nobody has ally targeted spells with longer than 1 sec cast anyway. Well except bonds, which are applied before battle. --193.77.133.54 19:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This ought to be "help me kill them" instead of "help me I'm dying" in nature considering it is in Command not Motivation and Paragons by nature are one of the last to be targetted (except by blind/blurred). Maybe "For 1...8...10 seconds, other allies' Spells targeting a foe have 25% armor penetration against enchanted foes and also cause Burning for 1...3...3 seconds." (5 energy, 12 recharge)" The idea being to "help the paragon" by killing targets protted under layers of block. --Life Infusion «T» 22:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What if we concept it as the Paragon getting power from the people around them? My first pass at the concept was "For each nearby ally, your next attack deals +2 damage" or "Your next m attacks do +5...10 damage, where m is the number of allies within earshot". Or maybe it could be a small heal like Leader's Comfort, but not as extreme: "You are healed 5...25 for each nearby ally". How much is a heal that can't be interrupted worth?68.221.15.244 01:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Cruel Spear

Add Bleeding for 5-22 secs. Increase to 8 hits of Adrenaline. ashesfalldown 11/16/07

Signed --Lou-Saydus 19:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

this is in no way underpowered at all.24.47.18.113 03:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

seriously, ranged eviscerate, underpowered?--Life Infusion «T» 22:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Except for the fact that all you have to do to turn it into a crappy mighty throw is kite. --66.45.173.98 18:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"The Power Is Yours!"

I believe the phrase "terribad" describes this skill perfectly. Reducing or even removing the energy degen might make this skill playable. - HeWhoIsPale 20:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My Suggestion: "Elite Shout. All party members within earshot gain 1...8...10 Energy. You lose 1 energy for each point of energy gained this way." That makes it just a self e-drain skill instead of a strong self e-denial skill. --Deathwing 22:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Could just make it 'lose all energy', would be totally playable then. The thing is though, do you want this skill playable in the game? And sadly i believe the answer is no. Giving mass energy to everyone in your team, even at the cost of yours, is just not something that's gonna be good for the game because it totally screws up emanagement balance, especially on monks. Patccmoi 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

At least it has a nice recharge time... maybe increase the recharge to 25 then make it "lose all energy"?-Rakeman 15:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. — Skuld 15:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've used it before, quite heavily until I got bored with it. Time your energy skills well enough, swap weapons, and power yourself back up with adrenaline during/after the degen. TPIY!, Lyric of Zeal, and Aria of Zeal makes for one scary battery with enough slots left over to apply decent pressure. It's a good skill, you just need to build heavily around it more than anything. --Racthoh 05:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill actually effects all allies within earshot, not just party members, so its not completely horrible..just use it with a focus set.24.47.18.113 03:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

And this improves it how? In gvg it also gives archers and pets and spirits energy, instead party only. In pve it gives energy to any NPCs you might have instead of party only. BIG WHOOP. Yeah really having it affect allies makes it so less horrible....what are you smoking? --193.95.232.28 10:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

AB, competitive missions...yes all allies doesnt really matter in gvg and pve, nice job pointing that out.24.47.18.113 06:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

why not just removing the "you have -10 energy regeneration" stuff? it would be nice this way i think--189.12.67.75 01:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

How about: For 10 seconds, all other party members gain 1...7...8 energy the next time they use a skill. (note: only once, not every time within the 10 seconds). You lose 2...1...1 energy for each party member affected. Nicky Silverstar 08:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sort of like how Ballad of Restoration is to Song of Restoration? And why not just make it "Leadership does not affect this skill."? That would still have energy denial without over-powering the Paragon's 2 pips of regen. RitualDoll 21:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

"Find Their Weakness!"

Not worth the energy cost, recharge is bad, and a lot easier ways to inflict Deep Wound. I can think of very little reasons to take this skill. I can think of 2 possible ways to make this skill useful. The first is just simply reducing energy cost to 5 and recharge to <=10. The second suggestion that I can think of is making it do bonus damage when it triggers. Something like 5...21...25. Might be a bit much, turning Wild Blow into a non-elite Eviscerate that cannot be blocked, removes a stance, and is a guaranteed critical. I don't think it would be overpowered, but I don't know for sure. --Deathwing 00:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

guess what? actually is very very effective and even almost reliable in some adrenal spikes critical chop for example and many more, this skill is not underpowered.

If you put this on an Assassin, they are sure to get deepwound wile dealing a combo, if they don't force one with something like critical strike or malicious strike. I could accept a 10 second recharge though.--BahamutKaiser 16:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

When I first saw this, I thought it was awesome because I thought it, like all other para shouts, was all party members within earshot. Armond 07:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not even close to weak, this skill allows passive deep wound for any physical damage class. --Lou-Saydus 19:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but unless you use a skill like critical chop, the DW isn't timed, so it is not good for spikes. Also it costs 10 energy and is a single target shout, a paragon can't support such cost. Thanks to nerfs to GTFE and WY while bunch of 1 target shouts are still at ridiculous prices for 2 pip profession (FTW, Lead the way, Make your time) --193.95.232.28 10:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

For a paragon this has little use any ways, they have much better methods of dw. This is more of a support/pressure skill. Too many people think of dw as only spike, but if you can put dw on many targets your pressure becomes much more effective as the other team virtually has less health. This skill makes great support in a para to sin use. Not to mention it can give ranger deep wound, although not reliably. --66.45.173.98 18:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this skill is that anyone who needs to do DW will have their own way of dealing it. The energy is fine (GftE and WY are still awesome energy gain) and the unreliability isn't a huge deal (you'll crit at some point within its duration). -- Armond Warblade 21:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bladeturn Refrain

Limited to only certain types of attacks, little effect for its conditional nature, and even suffers from the armor stacking change. What exactly does this skill have going for it? The only thing I can think of is to make it have a dual effect such as....

"Echo. For 20 seconds, target non-Spirit ally has and additional 5...21...25 armor and takes 1...8...10 less Slashing damage. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally."

Might be a tad overpowered, but "Watch Yourself!" provides the same armor boost to all party members, constantly, while this skill would take quite a bit of work to maintain on everyone. It is also hurt by the armor cap, which means it can't stack with "Watch Yourself!" or "Stand Your Ground!". --Deathwing 02:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

They should just change the way it deflects damage and cause it to reduce damage by a set amount instead of add armor, even a paragon is better off bringing tactics and spamming WY instead of trying to maintain an echo on several allies, honestly, the idea of offering armor to 1 of 3 physical damage types which has to be maintained with proximity and shout use on one unit at a time is pathetic. Readily equip foes will simply change damage types to elemental, making this a joke, even if it offered armor vs all attacks, it would still be less functional than WY

Probably the best alternative would be to reduced damage by 15%-30% vs all attacks on one ally, and increase the recharge time to 15 seconds so it is difficult to spread.--BahamutKaiser 16:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be different to WY! and TNFT/Incoming .... As it is Blade Turn, give it a scalable chance to block melee attacks and a scaleable bonus to armour v's physical. Increase the Energy cost and recast (reshout?) so that it isn't spammable, just useable. Reality Impaired 20:05 GMT 11 October 2007

Unremovable, maintainable block, now why didn't we think of that before?.. — Skuld 14:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this could be reworked to "all melee attack skills against this ally miss". Too much block is in the mix of anti-melee. Blocking attack skills would make this a good anti-spike skill against assassins and hammer/axe warriors that rely on attack skill spikes. It fits more with the theme of "bladeturn". --Life Infusion «T» 04:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

My two cents: i would personally either give it scalable (and very low) blocking (maybe around 10%...25% or so) that only applies to melee attacks, a lowered and scalable armor bonus exclusive to physical damage (near 5...23..37), an either 50% or 75% block chance exclusive to melee attack skills, or a weakened combination of those. With something like that it would be effective for relieving pressure, but not too overpowered (like blocking all melee attack skills) or too conditional (like in its current state.) ~ 68.91.252.134 00:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Echo. For 20 seconds, target non-Spirit ally has +10...34...40 armor against physical damage. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally.--189.70.107.206 01:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Make Your Time!"

This one, while I guess it could be useful to get some adrenaline, just has far too long of a recharge to be any sort of use at all. It is, pure and simple, not worth the cost of the 1 slot on your skill bar. 76.102.172.202 07:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Compare it to "to the limit". 30 sec recharge instead of 20 sec and 10 energy cost instead of 5. It is the energy cost of 10 on single target shout that is killing it as well. --193.77.133.54 19:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hasty Refrain

While this was a good idea, it requires a far too heavy investment in leadership to be able to maintain it in any real way. The issue with it I guess is a free movement speed, but I would rather see a higher duration with some sort of balancing factor than have it in its current, near useless state. 76.102.172.202 07:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that matters too much, because a Leadership/Spear Mastery Paragon can cover all aspects of the class and have hight damage and e-management. So a high Ld investment isn't really something that you cannot work around. Nicky Silverstar 10:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

This skill is completely pointless, as a single paragon can very very barely maintain this. You need to use "They're on fire" and have really high leadership to be able to use this. A bit of straying from the group makes this drop instantly. --193.77.133.54 19:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

increasing the duration would make this is skill good--189.70.107.206 01:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Anthem of Fury

This skill is OWNED by Infuriating Heat, other than the fact that that affects the other team also. A ranger has more utility than a para atm, with DShot, Savage, and Apply Poison. I think it could use a buff, maybe make it cost adrenaline or something? This way it can also help e-management a lot and help use it yourself. ~~ frvwfr2 (talk · contributions) 02:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

7-8 adrenaline cost would be nice, but very, very exploitable. Two paragons bouncing this back and forth = unlimited energy and adrenaline. --71.229.204.25 02:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. That's the only problem with that... Take REAL paragon healers, bouncing this with Heal Party... ~~ frvwfr2 (talk · contributions) 02:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Finale of Restoration and Purifying Finale too. :O --71.229.204.25 02:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get what's wrong with this skill. It's cheap, reasonable recharge and it basically powers all of your team's adrenaline skills to full. And it benefits the Paragon as well, unlike Infuriating Heat, which does nothing for the ranger himself. And it is not a spirit, which is also good...no high casting time and positioning problems. Finally, it doesn't affect the opposing team...so please explain to me what I'm missing. Nicky Silverstar 10:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah this skill is generally fine, but I just hate how it is bugged and only affects party members. Makes no difference in most situations, but really breaks it for AB. --193.77.133.54 19:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

this skill should be able to target all allies , increasing the adrenaline by 1 would be nice--189.70.128.131 18:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Natural Temper

What the hell is the point of this skill? First of all, the condition is rather ridiculous, considering how much people like to chain Aegis. Secondly, did anyone calculate how much adrenaline this skill generates? In 9 seconds, paragon does 6 spear attacks, which nets 33% * 6 extra adrenaline. 2 problems: - 33% * 6 makes it 198% extra adrenaline. That means, 3 attacks don't give you a full extra hit of adrenaline, but rather 99% of one. This makes this skill crap. - This skill is an adrenaline skill itself, meaning that activation of this skill decreases adrenaline pool for all other skills by one. So in 9 seconds, it adds ALMOST 2 strikes od adrenaline, then consumes one when reactivated, making TOTAL GAIN OF LESS THAN ONE STRIKE OF ADRENALINE. If you are not enchanted of course. And of couse if none of your attacks get dodged, blocked or if you're never blinded. C.R.A.P. Needs to have longer duration, like 25 sec, and gain of at least 40% to drop the whole 99% of extra adrenaline after 3 attacks crap. Maybe 60% while not enchanted, 40% while enchanted. Or something. Or have it consume 1 energy every attack while active if enchanted.

should be energy based with ~10 recharge or last three times as long at the very least considering enchantments are hard not to have off you. adrenaline skill to gain adrenaline doesn't make much sense unless it lasts long (see flail).--Life Infusion «T» 22:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Angelic Protection

Duration versus recharge really ruins this skill. Also unless you are extremely highly specced, the effect is simply not worth it, you are much better off with prot spirit or something. If this gave damage reduction like Shielding Hands or something, it would be tons better. Also if it would be target ally instead of target other ally. --193.77.23.92 18:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Also forgot to describe the real way this skill works. Most people mistakenly believe that it prevents all damage over 130 each second. Actually, they way this skill works is that it counts the damage and each second it is in effect, applies a heal for as much as the damage over 130 you've taken since last second. So if you get hit for 600 damage, you would get healed for 470 after a second. Except you don't since you are dead. Epic fail of a skill, because of recharge, rather high limit(100 HP or 130 HP per sec is still a lot, 4 sec of that damage and you are dead, so it doesn't even hurt spike sins) and the way it's effect works. You still have to guess the spike target, and if you can do that, you'd do much better with a number single target monk prot skills. --193.77.23.92 18:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

the idea of the skill is bad but it is in Leadership... maybe "For 10 seconds, any time target other ally takes more than 250...130...100 damage from an enemy Spell, that damage is negated and that ally is healed for that amount instead." (5 energy, 1 cast, 12 recharge) Making it anti-caster spike and making the paragon a true support character. --Life Infusion «T» 22:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Skill. For 10 seconds, any time target other ally takes more than 125...65...50 damage per second, the excess damage is transfered to you. 5/0/15

Kind of like a weaker version of Angelic Bond? --Deathwing 23:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Life infusions's idea is making it a weak Reversal of Fortune, with long recharge. Highly useless. I am just thinking lowering recharge to 15 sec and shifting the whole progression so that it ends on 60. This would make it a good PvE skill, since in PvE you'd be able to throw it on tank quite often to migitate damage. It wouldn't be all that good in pvp, since if you can guess the target of enemy team, Prot Spirit or Shield of Absorbtion work better. --193.77.133.232 18:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Btw LifeInfusion, your change woudldn't make it anti-spike. Spikes succeed because monk isn't fast enough. If someone can't catch a spike with 1/4 sec spell like prot spirit or glimmer of light or RoF, what makes you think they will do better with this skill? It would be antispike if it covered whole team. --193.77.133.232 18:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Other

Pets

Is there a reason why so many Paragon shouts chants & echoes were made inapplicable to pets? Were Para-pet parties causing imbalance? The reason I ask this is that it makes the option & synergy of Paragons & Pets almost non existent. Pets are fun, but when I try to find interesting ways to combine the two, all of the Paragon's main strengths become worthless. I understand the need for balancing the classes/skills, but Paragon/Pet could have great potential for fun gameplay. But as far as the Paragon is concerned the pet isn't even there. Btw, does brutal mauling really activate paragon skills? Because my shouts don't even show up on my pet.--Darksun 18:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Leadership and single target shouts

The way leadership works has several seriously negative effects. 1. With recent changes of many many chants and shouts from "ally" to "party member" it really hangs paragons high and dry in Alliance Battles. For instance I see no reason for changing Anthem of Guidance from "ally" to party member. Also it makes paragon unable to buff mission critical NPCs like Togo or Mehnlo, in fact they buff everyone else which makes monsters pick on 60 AL NPC asses, which promptly bite it.

2. It makes paragons suck in splits and pvp modes with only 4 players.

3. Single target shouts almost all suck. With recent changes to GTFE and Watch Yourself, paragon has significantly less energy and thus even less ability to run single target shouts. These shouts only return 1 energy when used, so using "Can't touch this", "Find their weakness" and especially "Lead the way!" and "It's just a flesh wound" and "Make your time!" is really hard. Especially the "It's just a flesh wound" I find hugely overrated. As a single target shout it runs the paragon dry of energy much faster than RC would a monk and the worst of all, it only removes conditions while RC heals. This is especially apparent when in situation where Apply poison ranger is attacking someone, and all this ELITE does is slow down the dying of the person getting attacked(it removes poison for a second or 2) while draining the energy pool dry. A Restore conditions paragon would heal the damage being done with shots and poison, keeping the person healthy.

In any case, something like reworking leadership to always give full energy then repricing some of the shouts like "It's just a flesh wound" to 10 energy to prevent abuse for free energy, would help a lot.--193.77.133.54 19:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

hmmm, that would be nice "Whenevery you use a shout or chant (Maximum 2 uses every 60 seconds divided by you leadership rank), you gain 2 energy for each ally within earshot(maximum 8 energy, 4 for adrenaline based shouts/chants)."EDIT:added a max gain.--√iktor(contribs) 12:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you explain the Maximum uses a bit better? Does it mean if I have 15 Leadership, I can gain energy from it twice every 4 seconds? 71.166.46.22 22:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)