Feedback talk:User/Wicca/Exterminate Power Creep

Seeing it is for PvE the problem isn't really the skills themselfs, it's that PvE has not even once been updated to the skill balances. Before crying out a big skill nerf cry out an update on all of the monsters in PvE instead. When that is done you can check wich skills is still OP before changing them. Damysticreaper 13:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

If what you're saying is that the skills that monsters have are OP, then that is a direct result of the game becoming too easy due to these buffed skills and many others (pretty much every NF skill) that Anet was forced to give the monsters crazy skills so that it is actually a challenge for the players. But now, we got these skills that make this so-called challenge, a cake walk. To undo these mistakes, the top layer must be dealt with first - which is the most recent of the introduced power creep, which are the skills I'm suggesting for a nerf. Only after that, can we deal with the monsters and after that, we deal with all of NF and EotN (which won't happen).Wicca 04:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree for most of these, but some like Obby Flesh, seriously? an elementalist not able to cast spells? that would take the skill from ehh not used in pve group and only solo farming to Something like this. I also dont agree with Ether Renewal, from PvE I've done, I NEVER see this skill used. I only ever see it used in speed clears. Therefore, Monks arent obsolite and never will be? Lets also look at Soul Twisting Mixed with Shelter, Union and Displacement with 12 Spawning Power, when fighting any decient mob, the shelter spirit gets killed in seconds, yes the recharge for soul twisting is low, and needs to be a bit higher, but 45-60 seconds is too much. I'd expect that kind of duration if it was a bit stronger. So, for soul twisting personally, I'd say 30 seconds should do it. Deff agree with SoS needing a nerf BADLY. There are also a few other skills that I think need a nerf, Invoke Lightning is one of them, 6 second recharge, low energy for an elementalist, exaustion extremly easily avoidable, and can easily hit up to 150 dmg if you work it right. Oh and for UA, I would just make it less of a boost to healing, if you only make it a boost to healing prayers skills, You'll most likely make it a bit too much like a diffrent monk skill, So just to be safe I'd say just make the healing boost apply to Divine favor and healing prayers, or just reduce the boost Obby Armor is Ugly PERIOD!Why? Ask me on my talk page =Pantil Swift 04:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

A nerf to Obsidian Flesh is definately needed. I'm not saying my possible fix is the right one, but it needs some sort of nerf. Why? Because, if SF is nerfed, Obsidian Flesh will be the next alternative and it will be just as strong. Take a look at this. In regards to ER, have you not seen the E/Mo builds that have become meta? Here's one and here's another. Now, Soul Twisting . . . you say the spirits die in seconds. I agree, but please remember that your foes die in seconds aswell meaning that shelter will be up at all times. Also, I believe that, flat-out removing the boost from UA is the best choice. Wicca 07:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Well if you don 't agree that PvE monsters need to be balanced first let me tell you why, most of them can be easily countered with the correct set of skills. And about the elites well there is a reason why they are tagged elite. Elite generally are powerful skills have limited to no drawback unlike non-elites with large power. Elites that grant a form of invulnerability like Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh and Vow of Silence have a large drawback to compensate such a rediculous power. What else you might want to look at is that you are mostly listing farming and speed clear skills and not skills generally used in PvE. You also want to nerf skills for their reason they have been designed to do in the first place and wich after a long time have remained untouched even after all the complaining about it. Some other skills you give a reason for nerfing is dead wrong and mostly due to a lack of experience with it.

Panic is a power interrupt but for general PvE Psychic Instability is still the elite of choise for many players because outside the elite areas or high end dense mobs. skills arn't spammed that often in general PvE so Panic isn't always that effective unlike Psycic Instability, wich makes it superior to Panic most of the time. Keystone Signet is the same deal, what use is an AoE interrupt when monsters arn't using the skills. The only reason it would be used is that recharge and AoE damage effect, and that is still mostly done by farming and SC teams.

Skills like Hundred Blades, Vow of Strength and Ether Renewal are hardly any problem at all in general PvE. The first 2 you mention requires a team of 2 or more and a bar with only 1 specific goal to work, and that is in SC areas. If you want to nerf that nerf Mark of Pain instead, since you would only be nerfing 1 skill instead of 2. Ether Renewal outside SC areas is more popular for it's ability to spam orders than the power of healing and isnt that big of a problem as you believe it is. Discord is the number 1 most overrated elite in the game, wich by experienced PvE'ers is laughed at. Soul Twisting and Signet of spirits are the only 2 elites that can be seen as a problem case for general PvE. Signet of Spirits does indeed give massive fire-power and is OP but Soul Twisting is also used to upkeep the offensive spirits in the Communing line. The skills that would need a rebalance to make them more usable without the usage of Soul Twisting are Shelter, Union and Displacement. Those 3 just need to have their power reduced and need to be changed so that you can use them without having to rely on Soul Twisting to be able to use them. Shadow Form needs a complete function overhaul instead of another nerf if you want to fix it.

You can also remove save Yourselves! from the list because the live team has already stated that non-imbagon skills will not be changed when the paragon is going to be updated and wich frankly is the only build that the paragon can play in PvE. It's skills would need to be overhauled first before you plan on nerfing the imbagon. The only skill that can be concidered OP and candidate for a nerf is Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. Unnatural Signet and Spiritual Pain are not seen as a problem either and if so they would have been nerfed a long time ago. The only change you could apply to them is the removal of AoE from Unnatural Signet and a small damage decrease of Spiritual Pain. And if you would like to know Shroud of Distress is used because it has a long duration and for it's ability to block, not it's ability to regenerate health.

UA is strong for it's bar compression but used by prot monks because it offers a good rez. The real problem isn't really UA and HB but that they can be used in 1 bar thanks to Arcane Mimicry, individually they are fine so you are addresing the wrong problem. But UA prot has never replaced the need of a healing prayers monk. When you look at teams in PvE there is always a dedicated healer using either Word of Healing, Healing Burst, Healer's Boon or Unyielding Aura (yes healers use those 4 elites and not just 1 like people think). The replacment of healing monks outside of team farming and speed clear has been done by restoration necros thanks to the sabway meta.

But allow me to list the elites that are only a problem with SC and farming in that list of yours: Shadow Form, Panic, Keystone Signet (hardly a problem case), Energy Surge (same deal), Destructive Was Glaive, Soul Twisting, Obsidian Flesh, Ether Renewal, Hundred Blades, Vow of Strength, and the non elites that interract with it: Shroud of Distress, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, "Save Yourselves!", Deadly Paradox. That in total is almost your entire list of skills, like i said a skill update and a rebalance to the monsters can easily counter the power creep in high-end PvE.

Yes skills have been buffed and skills have become strong but not all professions have been updated and neither have the builds of monsters to balance it out. Your problem seems to be high-end only and not general PvE and the solutions you offer are also based on flawed observations of how they are used and how to fix them is also flawed. All you do is cry out for a nerf and nerfing isn't the same as balancing and does not fix power creep or help the game even one bit. If you nerf the current meta skills other skills will replace them and you will be back at square one. After that people will again cry out for a nerf and it will go on like that untill al skills are nerfed. Nerfing skills like you ask does not help the game even a single bit, you need to balance them. You also really need to give it another look and look at the real problem instead of offering emergency fixes. If you do so the will draw a completely different conclussion, that i can guarantee you. Damysticreaper 12:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you failed to explain why PvE monsters need to be balanced, but let me tell you a story.

There once was a game called Guild Wars that was released in 2005. The game was fair. The game required skill and most importantly, the game was balanced. Then phase two occured; the expansions. Due to poor decision making on what an expansion should contain, new skills and professions were introduced. Unfortunately, the balance that was present in the game up until Factions did not take into account these newly introduced skills and professions/playstyles. The balance in the game was crippled. We now had extraordinary skills and extraordinary abilities, which meant we could do so much more than what we originally could. These new abilities introduced in Factions now provided us an added advantage in Prophecies(if you can't understand that, I will feel very sorry for you). We could now do things the environment in Tyria couldn't. How is that balanced? Next came Nightfall, the big one. Due to Anet's desperation to complete Nightfall in 6 months, hundred of new skills and 2 new professions were not given the attention the original game received. Thus, the game became flooded with incredibly powerful skills that gave players an even bigger advantage over the environment and allowed them to compress so many different skills into one build (bar compression). This means that each individual player was so much more stronger. As a result, groups of players were even more powerful and the environment became easier and easier to conquer, because there was just so many funtionalities that could be brought at once, compared to the limitted amount you could bring originally. The next bus arrived at the stop, EotN, which added to the players power and strength (consumables). Now players will be performing at maximum efficiency at all times (unlike the chance factors that weapons had). Anet realized that players were becoming very powerful, and there was just no limit to what they could do with the existing game. So they decided to "make the game harder". That's right, you guessed it. Hard Mode. Anet reckoned that, buffing every monsters health, energy, attack speed etc would give the players more of a challenge. What they did not realize is that, they're vision of hard mode wasn't actually hard. The monsters possessed the exact same AI, therefore, the players weren't actually challenged. Then came the dart-board buffs. Good ol' Linsey liked dart-boards. She brought us the December 2008 elite skill update which broke PvP irreversibly and took over a year to undo the damage done. More and more buffs were handed out. Buffs makes skills OP and OP skills are used by players. Skills used by players make players stronger. Stronger players means that the "challenging" areas become less challenging. From then on, more buffs have made players considerably more stronger, making the game easier and breaking the balance that was once in the game.

So, the last event to occur in that true story is the buffs to skills. Every single one of the skills listed (except 1 or 2) are part of this event that has occured. To restore the balance back in this game, one must work backwards. Monsters have not been changed since Hard Mode was introduced but skills have been buffed continuously since Factions came out. Logically, it would be wise and smart to start with what is, currently, making the game imbalanced, which are the OP skills. It would be absurd to change monster first as it would achieve nothing due to the fact that players have access to these skills that make them gods. After all the OP skills are dealt with, the monsters will be needing some attention. After that, every single skill introduced since Factions will need to be looked at, along with the 4 new professions. Only after that will the balance be restored back into the game. This will return Guild Wars into a game that is fair, requires skill and is balanced. The End.

Let me just inform you that these skill are infact primarily used in speed clears. However, speed clearing is the primary form of completing High-End PvE areas so it's a moot point. I can guarantee to you that over 90% of the playerbase actively participating in High-end PvE are SC'ers. Part of having balance is having diversity. There cannot be just one build/playstyle that works. There shouldn't be one build/playstyle that is superior to the rest. There should be many ways to complete high-end PvE - not just one way which is the most efficient (SC's). SC's were created due to these buffs and made more powerful due to further buffs aswell (and consumables). Also, any of the listed skills that have found their way into general PvE are still over-powered. Just because UA instant rezzes people in SC's and provides heals from prot skills doesn't mean it won't instant rez people and provide heals from prot skills in general PvE. The OPness of these skills don't change.

A skill being untouched for a long period of time does not change the fact that it is a powerful skill. Period. I don't know whether you're playing the same game as me but Shadowform and OF have no real drawbacks. i.e. things that actually weaken the skill. Shadowform and OF builds can still perform at peak efficiently regardless of their drawback. Again, are you playing guild wars? Have you not seen the gazillion Panic mesmer builds that people are using for general PvE? I suggest you do some research.

All in all, these skills need to be changed in order to restore the balance back in this game. The problem is that, Anet has done nothing for so long that players have become too comfortable with the skills and they think that they are good for the game. I can assure you they are not. Just because SY! is part of the only build paragons can run doesn't matter. It's still overpowered and needs a nerf. The answer to power creep is to the remove it, not to introduce something to counter it. All that does is create another layer of imbalance, further segregating the variation in the game and promoting further use of overpowered skills and SC's and severely weakening every other possible playstyle(as if they aren't already). That will be a step away from the balance that needs to be restored.

Also, fyi, I did mention on my suggestion that my possible solutions are not the best. In no way am I advocating those changes. All I am doing is stressing the fact that these skills have done more harm than good for the game as a whole and they need to be dealt with first, before anything else can be done. Wicca 09:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes i am playing the same game as you. I already stated the reason and let me reword why. Like you said powerful skills were introduced with the release of NF and players with the help of heroes could function solo much better. However monsters remained the same and as you said all still have the same skill bars and remain at a level of the first skill set of prophecies. Factions may have been balanced to it but since that time monsters havn 't been updates hence the reason you can steamroll PvE with almost any build. To say it simple monsters are outdated and need to be updated...up to a level matching those in GWB. The massive usage and popularity of skills like Panic has one other reason wich that ruined that game massively is this [[1]]. It is common knowledge that PvX has been the number 1 biggest contributor to ruining the game by giving players easy acces to farming and SC builds that you so much hate. And you seem to believe i am defending skills like SF, OF and SY well i am not. As i stated if you want to get rid of SF it needs a complete function overhaul, a function that does not grant immunity to spells. Obsidian Flesh has some massive drawbacks but it also would need a change in function. For SY i said that the paragon needs to be overhauled first so that it can play all of it's skills and not just imbagon. After that has been done SY can be changed into a less defensive skill. As with UA i do know out of experience that even if protection is able to heal it would only be limited to Reversal of Fortune and Spirit Bond. The skills prot monks use to heal are either located in healing prayers or divine favor so it makes hardly any difference. It is more the result of combining multiple attributes into one bar thanks to the bar compression it offers. It's healing buff can be replaced with Aura of Faith, or like before they would take Word of Healing. As with the instant rez then also do adress "We Shall Return!" and Eternal Aura, those are 2 non-elites able to instant rez even better than UA does because they can bring back the entire party.

Yes high-end is SC material and almost all people who are there do it, it caused a massive inflation in the economy and it has already nerfed skills and introduced new enemies. Nerfs have come on gone and from solo clear to teams, from Ursanway, Cryway, Rojway and Surgeway to Glaiveway, Trenchway and Frostway. All SC and farming builds brought forth thanks to the PvX community and each played in a different way with different times of clearing. Metas have been nerfed as a result of SC and farming and new metas have replace it and it will go on forever and ever. SC and farming will never disapear no matter how much you would like it. Nerfing meta skills will only bring forth new meta skills. The Live-team knows this so they are focussing on new content instead of fixing old content. Many people cry out for nerf, many people cry out for eliminating heroes and cons, all to eliminate SC, all those people fail to realise that it does not fix the problem at all and that all their cries will never be awnsered. The new contents that are being released in GWB are monsters at a level matching the power of current skills and level of players. If you want to play the game don't play high-end pve. If you have done it all, achieved GWAMM like i have and maxed out your HoM then either wait for the new content or go play a different game but don't get pissed off at a never ending problem. Yes i do play the game, in fact i have played about everything there is in the game. I have seen metas come and go. I have seen skills being nerfed and buffed over and over again. I have seen professions fall and rise. With all the experience and knowledge i have gain over all those years i know that people like you will always cry about that never ending problem and that at this stage of the game you should not even be bothered with it anymore. If you don't like the game as it is anymore because of that then let me give you a piece of advice: get yourself prepared for GW2 and quite playing GW1 or accept the problem as it is and that it will never be fixed and look forward instead of staying behind lingering in the past. Because no matter what you suggest about it it will never change even if the change you suggest would make it trough. Damysticreaper 11:48, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, it took me so long. Unfortunately, tackling issues such as this requires practical use of time. Balancing every single monster in the game (which will also include an update to the AI which will be extremely difficult to do) will require a significant amount of development time and resources that the live team does not have. They have like, 6 people in the live team and only one of them is capable of updating the AI. It would be a lot more practical and reasonable for them to tackle the main problem points - which are the over-powered/power-creeped skills. It wouldn't require any more than half the amount of time needed for an entire overhaul of PvE monsters and their AI. Sorry if this has no relation to your last comment as I didn't read it. Wicca 09:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Read the whole comment before you are gonna comment to it, you will know by then that your counter argument is invalid. In case you don't have the time to read it let me sum it up what i said. Skill changes in PvE fix nothing but delay at most. Farming and SC will continue to excist no matter wich meta you nerf a new meta will replace it and the cycle of hatred starts again and again and again over and over. Start reading the second part for the full message so you can understand it better. Damysticreaper 11:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Ive read the whole thing... I completely agree with Damysticreaper, good work :) --Kali Shin Shivara 03:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Is there any other skill in the game that deals 100+ dmg with such a small recharge and is spammable?"

Yep. elix Omni 09:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Listed :P. Meant to include "used in high-end pve" aswell. Thanks for reminding me. Wicca 09:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Some General Feedback on your suggestion

First things first, I would suggest you stop trying to apply PvP logic to PvE. in PvP, you will never face more than 8 people on a single team. This is not true in PvE. It becomes even less true and more of a problem in Hard Mode. So ideas like "Tanking should be left to warriors" are completely out of the question seeing as warriors have no way to remove anything that could be classified as a de-buff. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just saying that the two formats of play are completely different from eachother.

• SF and Shroud - This has been gone over at least once for everyone who's ever played guild wars. So I'm gonna skip it.
• Mesmer Spikers - Why do you want to kill the only thing Mesmers can are allowed to do in PvE?
• SoS and DwG - Again with the wanting to kill the only things a class can are allowed to do with high end PvE?
• Soul twisting - Kinda agree on this one, it is pretty OP. But it is pretty amazing and I would be sad to see it go. Pretty much the only decent prot tactic a rit would have.
• Obby flesh - Nah. Leave it be. Requires much more effort to use.
• Ether Renewal - uh, this is only used in like, one place. In one Build.
• UA - Only affects Healing Prayers. Your argument is invalid.
• Discord - Stop being an elitist. Baddies need help, Good players dont like helping baddies. Let the baddies have SOMETHING.
• Spike skills - Again, Killing the only thing someone can is allowed to do in high end pve.
• Honor - Yeah kinda OP. But only sees play in Speedclears.
• SY - You really hate everything that isn't Balanced-way dont you?
• Deadly Paradox - Would just make it so sins dominate the game again. This skill makes it possible for anyone to maintain SF, which means anyone can tank, without it sins become the only people to tank anything ever again.
• Consumables - Agreed. Just subtract these fucking things from the game entirely. They turn Wars into Me/E's and Me/E's into fucking Jesus H Christ himself.

• • Conclusion, Power creep is good. It turns noobs into seasoned veterans and veterans into whiney piles of zkeys screaming "WWWHHHAAAAAAAAAAA! MY Q7 CHRYSTALINE SWORD ISN'T WORTH ALL THE ECTOS, ZKEYS, AND ARMBRACES IN THE ENTIRE GAME!"

• • Non satirical conclusion: Your hate for Speed clearing is ridiculous and pointless. Guildwars is a dead game and Speedclear is the only thing keeping it alive. Deal with it.
    Also, Yes, I did become more and more hostile as I read your outlandishly childish suggestion. --BriarThe Spider 09:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with GW being a dead game as it is still going on strong with GWB but haters that linger in the past will always rage and cry with ignorant and futile attempts. This suggestion is no different from the others, a foolish and futile attempt to fix something that cannot be fixed and will never be fixed for painfully obvious reasons. Damysticreaper 11:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

loled hard... can't be serious to kick every working farming in GW1... most guys I know, don't do anything anymore in the game then get money... because they've got nearly everything, also 50 points in HoM... why "Protective Spirit" and "Spirit Bond" is not on your list to sum it up, "Farmfocus" maybe too, also in combination with "Spoil Victor"? This game IS indeed more then dead... Its the same what happened to Diablo2 without the dupes. It's just a farming and botting game anymore with some rare exceptions. Just play it with like-minded people if you take care about these things... --Kali Shin Shivara 03:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

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Although I agree that many of these skills are overpowered, they serve a dual purpose:

- they keep people playing

- they keep the economy alive

without these skills, not a single player would be grouping in ToA. No ecto's would make it to the trader anymore. Maybe pet/barrage or traps would return but I'm sure you'd start posting about these skills too.

unfortunately, to keep this game and it's economy alive, people need to farm. Also, contrary to what you may believe, many of these skills are not facerolls in eg UW, DoA and FoW HM, as more than half of pickup groups fail.

So the choice is yours: a balanced game without players, without economy, or an unbalanced game where people still make groups. You either cope by learning one of the cookie cutter builds, many of which are very difficult to perform well, or you whine.62.159.14.62 13:52, 13 March 2012 (UTC)