User talk:Tennessee Ernie Ford/Archive 1

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PMs Jan, Feb, Mar 2009[edit]



Hey Tennessee, please do not creating voting-like discussions as you did on the community portal. The wiki doesn't work like that, instead we simply do things based on consensus. But having separated sections for support and oppose tends to remove any discussion and will just get the people to repeat things without responding to others. So a simple discussion, or text, with your intention and your opinion would be fine and will make it possible to talk about the idea. Thanks :) poke | talk 06:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I won't do it in the future, out of respect to the policies and customs of the wiki. (Not to mention: you asked so very nicely. :-)
By the way: I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "decision by consensus" that doesn't include expressing approval/disapproval. I guess I don't see that putting one's opinion under yes or no means that people can't respond to each other's points. I do see it as helping users see the pros/cons, otherwise they tend to get lost in longer and more heated conversations. In other words, could you help me to see the error of my ways by pointing out what's different in what I did from voicing opinions on sysophood?
For what it's worth: if you wade through the WoT on Nick's talk page, you'll see that instead of meandering towards agreement, the discussion was diverging further apart (and unpleasantly IMO). It also appeared headed towards a bladder decision (where whoever can avoid going to the bathroom the longest wins); on wikis, it tends to be whoever has the most patience (or time) to post the longest. I was hoping that presenting clear options would help galvinize the silent majority who didn't want to dive deep and yet still had strong feelings on the topic.
As it turns out, I probably should not have posted in the CP. Getting lost in the details of how to handle Nick is a more general question: does the wiki want to treat some of the new features differently from standard articles because (unlike 99% of GW), they have aspects that change daily or weekly? Mostly people are saying, "the wiki doesn't do that" rather than considering whether maybe the two Nicks and the Z-quests are unique and require special handling. (Maybe they don't; still, seems worth asking the question.)
In any case, thanks for the tip/suggestion/request (and thanks for being gracious about my faux pas). Tennessee Ernie Ford 07:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
PS please call me, TEFTennessee is the stately adjective modifying Ernie, but for some reason, no one ever calls me [not my real name] Ernie.
Consensus is reached by discussion, not a simple agree/disagree count since there are generally more than the originally proposed options for any situation. We discuss the pros/cons of a proposal, as well, as any additional options and come to a mutual agreement of what would be best for the wiki. Also, proposals for changes should be made on the talk pages of the appropriate pages, not the community portal, unless it's a broader, generalized change that would affect more than just a single page. If you wish to gain a larger audience for a discussion, you simply add a link to it on the Guild Wars Wiki:Requests for comment page.
PS, please sign your comments, even on your own talk page :D lol I missed it :P --Wyn's Talk page Wyn 10:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Re: reaching consensus by discussion — we agree completely. I'm not suggesting we count; I'm suggesting it's easier to see the pros/cons if they are organized that way. I will follow the practice here going forward. (Even though I still don't understand how this discussion is different from a sysops decision, which I used as a model for the proposals.)
Re: change proposals belonging on the talk page itself. — You'll see on Nick's talk page that I didn't realize that was the custom of this wiki. I'm happy for the discussion to be moved. Again, my apologies.
Re: off-this-topic — if you have time, maybe you can point me to the discussion/decision that would help me understand why this wiki is not the place for [discussion of player reactions to new features].
In any case, thanks again for taking a moment to tutor me on wiki practices/policy. Tennessee Ernie Ford 18:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
What I meant is that by having separated agree/disagree-sections discussion won't happen as people tend to not discuss about single statements. Of course you can see better who agrees and who does not, but consensus should happen by giving good arguments all people can follow. Also the general voting scheme tends to make people just drop a line (even if they are uninterested or do not add new things to the discussion) so they are listed there. Similar things happen on the RfA-pages where many people tend to comment with "per user XY". The basic difference however is that bureaucrats will look at what people write there and decide based on those opinions. But having such a system in the normal discussion is difficult as bcrats or sysops are not to evaluate the comments and then decide what will happen (instead the consensus is something the users should aim at and decide together about). poke | talk 19:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah, okay. Makes sense. Maybe what I meant to do was encourage people to post pro/con arguments rather than what they had been doing (rehashing same argument over and over, getting more frustrated). And, I have to agree, whether one agrees with my plan or not, my execution looks/feels more like voting than my intent. (As a reminder, I wanted to encourage decision-by-group rather than decision-by-biggest-bladder.) Thanks again for your help. Tennessee Ernie Ford 20:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

for understanding why I made the RFA. -- Armond WarbladeUser Armond sig image.png{{Bacon}} 21:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You are quite welcome.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 05:46, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Does the sun still rise in the east?[edit]

I notice that the recent signature drama finds Shard and Wyn on the same side of an issue. The End Days are upon us now!   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Btw, you're smart. :-) Just been wanting to say that for... a month. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 12:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Heya! Thank you for your kind words.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Collector weapons[edit]

Why are you removing the damage type statement on the Rit collector items page? According to each collector page, the statements are accurate. -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 01:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Look again, please; I didn't remove anything. Rather, I added the damage type at the top of the individual sections, as is the case for the similar sections for the other collectable caster weapons.
I don't know about you, but I find it frustrating that sometimes I can see the damage type in the table, sometimes I have to look in the section description, and sometimes at the top of the table. I think it would be easier for readers if it was consistent on all of these pages.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 05:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
If all of a specific class of weapon have the same damage type it's at the top of the section. If they differ there is a column. -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 15:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
You don't find that non-uniformity frustrating? On the mesmer page, the damage type appears at the top of the individual section. On the monk page, the damage type appears as a column in every table (even if it's the same type for everything in the table). The monk page also includes a column indicating which particular attribute (if any) benefits from the weapon; none of the other collector pages do. The other caster pages have similar oddities.
So, I was beginning to update the Rt page to make it consistent with the Mez page. Nothing I added was incorrect, although, as you point out, on the Rt page, it was redundant with the header at the top of the page.
The fact that the tables use different layouts (depending on profession, attribute requirement, and weapon type) means that it's hard to compare across profs (since a NeRt might wish to use Rt weapons).
Worse, it also makes it hard to validate the data. For example, the Mesmer page alone is missing at least 12 weapons that show up on the collector's pages, but do not show up on the Mez max collector item page. (See below.) I've just started trying to track down what's missing; I suspect that it will be easier/faster to go through all the collectors pages to ensure that each item has a presence on the max or non-max collector weapons pages for each profession. Still, that isn't going to be much fun since the format of collector pages differs from any of the collectors items pages.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually, no I dont' find those pages difficult, or inconsistent, and the common damage types are listed in the top information box along with the max damage stats. Feel free to add any missing items, I honestly did my best when creating them, but you have to consider that they took me over a year to complete, during which time, EotN was released. The differences across professions was mostly in the monk items as the prophecies monk collector items have very wierd stats that are not found on ANY other profession. The primary collector pages are only for max items, and I just did the non max items last week, so they should be current and up to date (I went through each collector on the lists). I would ask you however to not change the table formatting without discussion on the talk pages. -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 19:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
You did all that work yourself?!? Wow. My hat is off to you. I apologize profusely if anything above sounded like a criticism of the completeness; those pages are extremely helpful and amazingly accurate. I have been looking for ways to get cheap 40/40 or +30e sets, which led me to notice some gaps. I've now compared GWW's max Mesmer collections to GWiki's perfect collections and found a total of 26 missing weapons (including those below), so there are probably others out there. That gap is about 2.8%, which is stunningly accurate imo (by comparison, most peeps are about 10% accurate at best when doing work like this).
I hope you weren't the only one visiting each collector and taking the screenshots! My drive by comparison is certainly tedious, but it is far easier to find the small number of missing items than to put together the original list.
The differences between the professions drive me batty — the inconsistencies make comparisons difficult. Even so, I hope you know my work well enough by now to realize I never intend to do substantive style/format changes without getting input first. In this case, since my concern is across the pages (and less so within them), I would probably post something on the Collector Weapons page rather than repeating the query on 8 pages; let me know if you think another approach would get the right people to opine.   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Some of the items present on collector pages, but missing from the collection pages[edit]

An incomplete list of items present on collector pages, but missing from one or more of the professional pages (to the best of my ability to validate).   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Collect Prof Category Q Dmg Type Weapon Inherrent Inscription Location Collector Prefix Suffix
Berserker Horn Elementailist Caster Air Lightning Staff Air Staff HSR Spells (20%) HCT Air (20%) Shenzun Tunnels Leijo [Staff Head] [Staff Wrapping]
Berserker Horn Mesmer Caster Domination [none] Focus Inscribed Chakram E+15 / -1^ Shenzun Tunnels Leijo [na] H+30
Berserker Horn Ranger Martial Marksmanship Piercing Bow Stoneshard Hornbow Dmg +15% (Enchanted) Varajar Fells Helming Baldbrow [none]
Berserker Horn Mesmer Caster 9 Illusion Magic Chaos Wand Hypnotic Scepter E+15 / -1^ Varajar Fells Helming Baldbrow [none] HSR Illusion (20%)
Berserker Horn Necromancer Caster 9 Death Magic Cold Wand Bone Spiral Rod E+15 / -1^ Varajar Fells Helming Baldbrow [none] HSR Death (20%)
Berserker Horn Elementailist Caster 9 Earth Magic Earth Wand Earth Wand E+15 / -1^ Varajar Fells Helming Baldbrow [none] HSR Earth (20%)
Berserker Horn Ritualist Caster 9 Restoration Magic Dark Wand Restoration Scepter E+15 / -1^ Varajar Fells Helming Baldbrow [none] HSR Restoration (20%)
Ancient Kappa Shell Mesmer Caster 9 Domination Magic [none] Inscribed Chakram E+15 / -1^ Shenzun Tunnels Leijo [none] H+30
Ancient Kappa Shell Elementailist Caster 9 Air Magic Lightning Air Staff HSR Spells (20%) HCT Air (20%) Shenzun Tunnels Leijo [Staff Head] [Staff Wrapping]
Ancient Kappa Shell Warrior Martial 9 Strength [none] Wooden Buckler RPD-2 (Enchanted) Shenzun Tunnels Leijo [none] H+45 (Enchanted)
Dragon Root Mesmer Caster 9 Illusion Magic [none] Focus Jeweled Chakram E+15 / -1^ Vasburg Armory Healer Silja [na] H+30

In looking over your list, I see part of the problem, at least with the EotN items, that collector was not included on the list I was working off of at the time. -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 20:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have added all the items from Helming Baldbrow and the few missing items from Leijo and Healer Silja. Feel free to add anything else you find missing of course. Btw... different topic, did you see the comments I added on your item naming suggestion? -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 20:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Great. Thanks for taking care of this set of items. As mentioned above, I have found another dozen or so. I'm keeping track of what I find so I can post once (or update at one setting) rather than inefficiently piecing things together. (Incidentally, the missing items seem to be from all campaigns: 12 from factions, 3 from Nightfall, and the rest split between EotN and Proph.)   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Item naming suggestion[edit]

Btw... different topic, did you see the comments I added on your item naming suggestion? -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 20:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(apologies for pasting your text to different section — don't want to lose track of the different threads)
Yes! I did see that. Thank you. That will be a big help.
Unfortunately, it's a good idea ;-) That is, it requires work to take it to the next level...and I started the search for my cheap Mesmer weapons a couple of days before your post. I do plan to follow-up on Linsey's generous suggestion that they might be able to treat some amount of item renaming as a bug fix. I do want to focus their attention on things that have substantive difference in utility or cost, e.g. the Flame Artifacts (cheap vs. Chest of Woe variety), since I am sure they will only be able to devote a small amount of time. I'd also like to be able to have enough time to post more than 2-3 items. Thank you again!   — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Quote marks always go outside other punctuation[edit]

References include:

 — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 07:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

ok 42 -Auron 07:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Ty for the help TEF. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 09:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
42? I don't see the connection to Douglas Adams.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 10:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe you should look to this wiki in order to divine his reference. -- FreedomBoundUser Freedom Bound Sig.png 18:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Imho keeping links instead of double quotes would be more usefull and aesthetic than simple text with endpoint as part of quotes. So you won't need to apply grammarbook rules... Elephant 18:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
@FreedomBound: I am still not following the reference.
@Elephant: works for me. Although, Earth Henchman is not a particular useful term, as it gives but little clue to the abilities of the relevant hench. Plus, redirecting to a disambiguation page seems... distracting.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Auron is commenting that you are making changes to a lot of established articles without any prior discussion in a manner similar to User:42. He may also mean that the changes are stupid or unneccesary, but that would be pure speculation and I will not speak for him on that matter. Misery 18:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I didn't realize that discussion of copyedits was desired (let alone required). Seems a far cry from anything that User:42 has been accused of doing.
@Auron: if you would prefer that I do something different, please let me know what it is.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:30, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
For clarification, I was only acting as a translator. I'm not saying I agree with the statement and I could have gotten it wrong. Misery 22:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I don't think it's right to call one user by the name of another user. Each person is different and should not be judged by people comparing the person to another. That's just my opinion. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 22:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Well, with luck, Auron will let us know what he meant. Misery: thanks for the translation. I didn't mean to imply that you (or even Auron) had an opinion one way or another. The copyedit comment was directed generally: I thought copyedits for (theoretically) non-controversial, unambiguous grammar or typesetting rules fell well outside of any current controversies. I would like to know if I'm incorrect (and the community prefers that being bold with minor corrections takes place after discussion).  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason why e=mc2, incl. proofs[edit]

Nah, Happy Wintersday, mate! User A F K When Needed Signature Icon.jpg A F K When Needed 15:04, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, kind fellow contributor! Have a happy and a merry.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
happy Christmas- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 20:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you do me a favour?[edit]

Stop spamming my watchlist, please. Thank you. - Reanimated X 18:31, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Happy wintersday to you, too.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
^lol, why TEF Ernie is just pure win User A F K When Needed Signature Icon.jpg A F K When Needed 22:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


Hey, thanks! Enjoy the holiday and all that yourself as well! --Emkyooess 03:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope you have a fun Wintersday! --Silver Edge 06:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


Hope you had a great Christmas and that you'll have a Happy New Year! -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 05:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Merry Christmas[edit]

I also wish you a Merry Christmas. Have a nice game too, and an excellent Wintersday :) Agaetis RosAssassin 10:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Why aren't you a sysop?[edit]

I've trolled through some recent and not-so-recent contributions and you seem like an ideal candidate. Is there something I'm missing? —Tanaric 01:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

You are very kind to say so. No particular reason.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Guild_Wars_Wiki:Requests_for_adminship/Tennessee Ernie Ford --Emkyooess 02:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually it's here you need to go to - to accept or decline. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 03:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
You have seven days to think it over. User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png Drogo Boffin 03:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Ariyen, actually, it's the first link posted. He can indicate his acceptance and provide his candidate statement (if any) on the RfA itself. —Tanaric 03:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
My understanding is that an RFA "should not be started for"
"someone else, unless there is a clear acceptance in the "Pending nominations" section below. If it is an RFA for yourself, you should be logged in before starting."
"IP accounts"
"someone with another active RFA"
"someone with an unsuccessful RFA that closed less than 1 month ago (unless there is good reason, one should wait 2 to 3 months to generally avoid being viewed as trying too often) "
There was no Acceptance or a Decline, when that RFA was started. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 04:09, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Ariyen, Tanaric went on and stated the rfa without an accept/decline because of his statement on his talk page didnt have a clear indication of either way. He has time to think about it he can still accept or decline. User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png Drogo Boffin 04:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I didn't start the RfA, another user did, but I don't see any reason to throw it out and start over since the TEF hasn't declined. —Tanaric 04:14, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I didnt mean start the rfa, I meant to say that you took it to voting without him/her accepting or declining based on his statement. User DrogoBoffin sig icon.png Drogo Boffin 04:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
According to policy, it shouldn't be started, unless TEF accepts or declines in "Pending Nominations". No matter if someone did start it, doesn't make it 'right' to let it continue. It's there to be brought back, if accepted. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 04:31, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Ariyen, you're right, policy said it shouldn't be started. Somebody started it anyway. Policy doesn't say we now have to shut off our rational thought and make it into a big deal. —Tanaric 04:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
True, but I did what I did to keep it from going further, until the person accepts or denies. It's a respectful thing to do. I like to try to be respectful to those that I do respect and appreciate their kindness to me. More so, it's considered a 'pause' as it's still there, nothing more. Nothing to be 'dramatic' over. :-) -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 05:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Your actions were totally correct, now that you've justified them with precedent. I apologize for being a little rude. Next time though, justify what you're doing with something relevant so we all don't get so confused. :) —Tanaric 10:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I suggest to pay more attention to what goes on with the wiki. It might not be all that 'needed', but I'll keep in mind to inform, just in case. User C4K3 Facesmile.png -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 11:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Tef, your nomination stilll awaits. :-) -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 23:32, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

His contributions would indicate that he's been out of town- perhaps for New Years? TEF's quite the party animal after all. User Felix Omni Signature.pngelix Omni 23:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hehe, perhaps. Just wanted to leave a friendly reminder. -- User Ariyen sig icon.gifriyen 23:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Ariyen/Drogo/Emkyooess/Felix/Tanaric: After careful consideration, I decided that I am not currently able to offer this wiki the level of support I think it deserves from a sysop (assuming confirmation). I appreciate y'all taking the time to keep me updated. I hope that everyone had a great New Year's. Regards,  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

There's a hidden subtext there, so I applaud you, even if you didn't intend it. I hope you also had a happy New Year's and a fruitful Wintersday celebration. -- FreedomBoundUser Freedom Bound Sig.png 13:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)