ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Miscellaneous/Breaking PvE

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Shard's discussion

Full agree. Nobody can complain about elitism or whatever with this either; they're fully allowed to use the bullshit ANet put in to beat the game, but when they feel they're ready to move on to "hard" mode, all crutches are removed. Good idea. -Auron 10:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, good general idea, but forcing pvp versions of skills on hard mode screws over certain classes beyond belief. Mesmers, Sins, Non-obs tank dervs, rits (to some extent), and non-obs tank wars all get screwed over by this. Badly. It's not quite as bad for normal hard mode, but the second you go into any elite area, these classes become useless. All bow to tank and spank, and the revival of war + 3 ele + necro + 3 monk groups >_> (sarcasm) --Kalas Silvern 01:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would they become useless? My pve mesmer can beat HM missions without pve skills. My assassin could too before I deleted him. ~Shard (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In groups, they'd be seen as useless, just as they are now. Oh, and are you joining groups, using heroes, or leading groups? Also, please address that my point was mostly directed at elite areas- at least, I meant it to be, in case you misinterpreted. The classes/types of builds I listed would never get a PuG group, and would have a far more difficult time even if they tried with a guild or alliance group, to the point where the incredibly suped up monsters would annihilate the person in all of 4 seconds in the elite missions. This wouldn't balance the classes for HM, it'd just give the advantage to the ones that already have the advantage. --Kalas Silvern 19:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Which is why I put, as the first point of my suggestion, "Break pve-only skills to godly levels." In case you misunderstood, I meant all pve skills, not everything but mesmer ones. ~Shard (talk) 04:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Hard Mode, elite missions- according to you, the improved skills would be barred, and you'd have to use pvp versions of skills? That's what I'm objecting to. Ursan needs a nerf, BUT not until all classes can run normal builds in these elite areas, provided the player is skilled, and once hard mode is actually made difficult and not "lols one shotted by ele boss due to increased damage". I'd love to see AI updates to make hard mode enemies intelligent, as is, they just spam OP skills at near impossible attribute levels with lots of extra hp. That's false difficulty- give us real difficulty, make all proffessions viable in elite missions (and in some cases, HM), and then nerf Ursan and co. into the ground. --Kalas Silvern 03:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

PvE mesmers have no trouble beating HM missions. Yes, they are more limited than all other classes in what they can run, but you can still make a mesmer bar with big damage/degen on a large number of targets. If you can't, there's always fast cast nuking. Nobody's forcing you to run mesmer skills. ~Shard (talk) 04:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And that's the problem. Degen = slow, and slow = dead in those elite missions. Give me a non-pve mesmer skill with large AoE range that is spammable, and I'll agree. Saying "there's always fast cast nuking" is like saying "go make an ele". It's essentially saying "Oh, your class is crap here, no one wants it, pretent to be another". And I'm pointing out elite areas primarily. HM missions aren't an issue now, they would just be more annoying if you had to use the pvp versions of skills. Also- I'd love to see AI updates to make them better, so they don't need to be broken to be challenging. And saying "nobody's forcing you to run mesmer skills" can be translated as "everybody's making you run non-mesmer skills". --Kalas Silvern 02:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The armor ignoring damage that some mesmer skills have becomes infinitely more useful in Hard Mode. Interrupts and skills like Backfire and Empathy can quickly take care of enemy monsters, especially since those monsters tend to live longer (meaning your spells last long enough to make the worthwile). And as a Me/E, Fast Casting lets you nuke faster in areas with lots of interrupts. So I'd say Mesmers are pretty useful in Hard Mode. 145.94.74.23 10:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The long recharging armor ignoring outdoes any nuker your right, and fastcasting? I kept getting throw dirt interrupted as a ranger, casting faster wont save you from an AI that knows everything youre doing and going to do before you do it that can and does nail interrupts. Not worth saccing firepower for that as a Me/E also faster casts mean you have to always know when an AI feels the need to use certain skills that cast 33% faster which is usually under 3/4th of a second leaving only a few mesmers good enough to get it and natural resistance kills off a lot of high energy hexes long before their duedate. Any class can be made useful anywhere in any mode but when compared to other classes mesmers just don't really make the list...plus with Sabway heros I got Legendary Guardian without a "bear" or whatever its called now. Since the nerf of MoR an ele with 16 fire magic and a 40/40 set hell even with serpents quickness fast cast nuking is overshadowed. If people wanted to nuke why would they make a mesmer anyway? HM is fine, it's easy if you know what youre doing but then again what isn't? But if you have a doubt or aren't too experienced it shows and you feel it. Even ursan groups fail. 74.229.66.241 15:15, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree mesmers are probably the weakest class in pve. However, as someone else pointed out, most of their skills ignore armor. Esurge/burn is solid 90 aoe damage, empathy/backfire helps kill bosses or key enemies, and, let's face it, if nobody wants you on mesmer, there's always the most broken skill in the game. ~Shard (talk) 19:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The hard mode suggestion is horrible. PvP generally involves combat between teams of 4 or 8 intelligently played level 20 characters with normal gear and only PvP-legal skills, and the battlefiends and victory conditions are generally symmetrical. A build which is underpowered against stupid but powerful level 30 AI opponents could be overpowered against intelligent level 20 human opponents, and a build which is underpowered against intelligent level 20 human opponents could be overpowered against stupid but powerful level 30 AI opponents. Hard mode and elite areas are already unbalanced, and it would be impossible to balance the same skills for both PvP and hard mode PvE without a dramatic, resource-intensive rework of hard mode and elite area PvE gameplay. Also, monsters use the PvE versions of skills like players, so buffing them to obscene power levels would also buff monster skills to obscene power levels. -- Gordon Ecker 08:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say people had to run a pvp build. I just said they can't use imba pve skills. AI in GW isn't perfect, there will always be ways to make monsters easier to kill, and people will still find them, it just won't be as easy without seed of your party gains 5000 health per second. ~Shard 19:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

But your suggestion would force people to run builds with skills which are balanced for PvP rather than PvE. My point was that skills, builds and professions which are balanced in PvP could be underpowered (or overpowered) in PvE, so forcing players to use PvP-balanced skills in PvE would likely exacerbate elite areas' severe profession bias. -- Gordon Ecker 06:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Skills aren't balanced for PvE anyway. PvE (versions of) skills are "balanced" to minimize the whining on forums and/or to give players shiny new brokenness to play with. Which has brought us ursans, SY+TNTF imbagons, cryway, teams of 6+ permafarmers and all this crap (it's admittedly fun for a while, but it's still crap). And a lot of people feel that's ruining their enjoyment of PvE and would rather play with the moderately-balanced-for-PvE PvP skillset, which prevents such things. I'm one of them. (Obviously, we'd prefer A.net trying to truly balance PvE, but that isn't going to happen, as it would involve lots of actual programming.) 134.130.4.46 07:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Full support

Sign here please. Making vanquishing RIDICULOUSLY difficult, to the point where it challenges even the best of PvP teams, is a good thing. PvE is NOT challenging in the slightest in its present state. 82.34.128.95 18:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Vanquishing was only hard in a few areas before ANYWAY. The way to make vanquishing harder is to add new things INTO The area during hard mode, such as a new boss, environmental effects, better skill bars, slight redesigns for certain areas etc. Then it becomes harder. Buff them, not nerf us imo. Nerfing us makes it less fun, buffing them makes it more fun.--The Gates Assassin 22:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You want it to be "RIDICULOUSLY" difficult? Okay, don't use the PVE skills. In fact, only allow yourself 4 skills on your bar, and none of them elites. Don't bring heroes or join groups, and only bring one henchman. Then go on out there in HM and spank yourself, you masochist! Amazingly, you can do it (spank yourself that is) totaly without Anets help. Good thing, cauze I don't think they swing that way....217.234.224.103 10:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

hard mode

so you freaks want pve'ers to use pvp version of skills which are balanced around pvp for a complete different game type and environment to make hard mode more difficult. I don't think I have to say that this is the the most stupid idea I have ever heard on gw wiki. There is a lot of ways to make hard mode more challenging and LOL this is the worst of them. 87.189.242.153 11:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The main focus is that you will not be able to use pve skills in hard mode. ~Shard 09:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Still a bad idea. Most people do hard mode not out of masochism, but because they've finished NM and want to continue to play. Even with PVE skills, HM is harder than NM, and thus serves its purpose. Remember, it's still a game for most players. I think this whole idea is based on elitism, and that is very bad for the game. I've noticed a drop in players since the Ursan nerf. Kill the other PVE only skills, and the game is dead. Then all of the elitists can sit around in empty towns display their big titles and impressing nobody at all. Finally, if you don't like PVE only skills - for whatever reason - then don't use them. Simple as that. You hardly need ANET to take them away from you. 217.234.224.103 09:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What you cannot deny though, is that some PvE skills are beyond powerful: skills like Pain Inverter and Ebon Vanguard Assassin support continu to have extreme effects on any skillbars that use them. I am not saying they should be removed, but I do admit that Hard Mode has gotten a lot easier with the release of Eye of the North and somehow, I am feeling a bit sad about that. I don't want to show off my skills, but I do like a challenge. 145.94.74.23 08:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I say buff the enemies, not nerf ourselves. Harder enemies are more fun, handicaps are not.--The Gates Assassin 11:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That is wrong. Enemies like the Charrs in EotN are better. But even they get the ridiculous and boring boni of HM.

What has affected HM play the most from EotN are the consumables, not the skills. To maintain the challenge level, you simply play without either using on the same skills/equipment/heroes that you had prior to. Keep in mind some of the changes have occurred due to skill changes and ai mechanics. There are plenty of ways to maintain the personal challenge level in PvE. Find a way to use skills you've never used before, take smaller teams, I mean, there is nothing that says you have to always play with things you know are guaranteed to work. Try making other things work as well. There is really no reason to continue making sweeping changes to the entire game, effecting the entire playing community, and guaranteed to cause conflict just to maintain your challenge level/enjoyment of the game. PvE is not a competitive playing style, you are only competing with yourself.-- Wyn 21:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

There is really no reason to continue making sweeping changes to the entire game

What game are you playing? ~Shard 22:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

While the power of Essence of Celerity is quite detrimental to PvE, skills like Pain Inverter and Cry of Pain make even the like of Urgoz a walk in the park. PvE skills have just as much impact as the Essence. -=-Koda Kumi 22:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

(R. I.) Hang on a sec, I've already got my view on this topic posted somewhere, lemme go find it... Raine - talk 08:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Here we go:

"I refrained from saying "broken in PvP" because PvE should be balanced, too, damnit. Bloody hell, if they really need to, make an Easy Mode for people who can't deal with balanced PvE. Before anyone says, "Raine, you should play Hard Mode if NM PvE isn't fun", I'd like to say two things: (1) HM PvE isn't more fun; it's equally as unfun for the same reasons, but with higher numbers and perma-RaO on all the mobs and (2) [...] the mob AI doesn't do the smart things that I've become accustomed to playing against (there are no spikes to stop, no kiting to punish, no positioning strategy whatsoever... Just stupidly high amounts of equally unfun pressure)."

Make mobs fail less, IMO. Raine - talk 08:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It's PvE! If it's easier to kill something some way, DO IT. Stop complaining and wanting arena net to make it so hard that no one, or a very limited number of people can do it. the only things that need changing are skills that are useless in certain areas. like devours having weaken armor when the armor you have at that point is like max 60 on a warrior.--72.189.85.14 08:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

But it's so much more fun to kill Ilsundur, Lord of Fire with nuking water eles than generic Pain Inverter. :( Vili 08:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)