Feedback talk:Regina Buenaobra/Archive Community and Website/Oct 2009

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New Approach, Old Problems

As many people know I am vocal member of the Live Team fan club, however over the past year and the way things have turned out, I think one question is pressing: what is actually going on? We as a community have been told twice now that we will be more involved and informed as to what is being planned and done in GW1. The first time we were told this we got one such news update in 8 months. Now a month since the second time we were told this, we again have been given no further info as to what is happening in regards to GW1. Linsey has made the vaguest of mentions about sealed deck and maybe some new Halloween content, but beyond that we have no actual details about them or anything else planned for that matter. We as a community have been extremely patient. 1 content update in almost 10 months is not alot by anyone's standards and on the whole we haven't been that bad about it, with most peeps accepting that the live team has an awful lot on their plates for so few people to deal with.

I know it is quality not quantity that matters but as it stands we've seen none of the latter and a steep decline in the former due to poor QA standards (after working in the business myself I have gained a new insight into QA and it is only now I see how bad some of the errors are that are being allowed to get onto the live server, which should just really NEVER happen in a triple A title). Due to the lack of updates, many people have left guildwars in recent months (in my alliance alone we have seen a 40% reduction in activity and friends of mine throughout the game have reported the same happening to their guilds and alliances). Saying "oh look new shiny GW2 info" is really not enough to keep people interested in GW1.

With all of this in mind I must therefore ask Regina directly, what is happening? what is planned? Are their any actual finite details which can be shared with the community? Are their any actual deadlines which can be shared with us as a group? Regards -- Salome User salome sig2.png 21:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) /Seconded -- We got a really large Journal Entry out of Linsey a while ago and basically haven't heard a peep since. She's really the only one we could consistently expect *some* kind of communication out of for all things Design related. But she's not even answering simple questions anymore which completely cuts the public off from basic interaction of any kind. A one-sided conversation isn't interaction. ...TBH I was expecting all Communicae to dry up eventually just like it did with Izzy, but this soon? ...How much of that slack can You and Martin take up? --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 22:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand what are you asking for. Linsey made a rather big journal post telling us exactly what they are going to do for GW1 in the future: adding the Sealed Deck tournament, adding new henchmen to PvP (after the contest which result will be published in a couple days), removing heroes from PvP, and etc. We have also been told that PvE players will get Halloween, and more stuff will only come next year. I don't think there's much more they could tell us about (and really, no deadlines, those almost never work and would only lead some players to whine loudly, see the "content update once every four months" thing).
I'm also not worried about people losing interest in GW1. It doesn't matter if people stop playing the game when there's nothing new being released; how many people come back after something new is implemented (be it a content update or GW2) is all that really matters. Erasculio 21:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry Erasculio I normally agree with you however not in this instance. We have been told we might get some halloween content. That we're getting 2 modes removed and replaced with 1 mode, with 0 information on the details of how that mode will operate in this instance and we still haven't been told how the new henchemen will operate to effectively remove dependency upon heroes in an ever decreasing pool of players. For example how will these hench builds keep up with and compliment the current meta at any given time. Actually Ersculio we have been given a whole lot of vague intents with no actual details and no apologies for being so late with the second 4 month update. (and no telling someone 2 days before a deadline that they aren't going to abide by the deadline does not an apology make). -- Salome User salome sig2.png 22:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
The very fact that you, Salome, see this as an issue now lets me know that this has officially gotten "bad". I've been bitching about this for a while because, as you said, I've seen a radical decline in guild/alliance activity, forum activity, and....tbh, even my own activity. I would really love to find out what's going on and not just be repeatedly told, "we're working on stuff". 10 months is enough. Hell, I think even Everquest (the first one) gets updates more often than once every 10 months. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 22:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Come on, guys, you honestly thought this new approach would be different from the other approach? As much as I would love to have believed it, as I said to Linsey, it's hard to take it seriously. ~~ 22:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I had high hopes, but Anet has a tendency of doing that to me. I always start off thinking, "Wow! That sounds awesome!!" [1 month later] "Still pretty cool! I'm excited!" [3 months later] "Ok, we haven't heard anything, but surely they're just too busy. Right? Right?!" [6 months later] "Well, F**K THIS!" [10 months later] "Meh, who cares? They do this everytime anyway." (I'm typically playing other games by 6 months anyway). Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 23:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
(ec)i have to agree with zero, the only reason i know more info is that i was at pax and i was able to ask directly in person. i do love there stance as to cant make everyone happy but yet they do this bs were its cant let anyone have a let down. on another note i think a lot of this update has been them automating things. like giving out rps, cape trims and switching map rotations and switching zchest rewards, also making the events like wintersday be able to start and stop by them selfs, along with weekend events from what i was told at pax09 all that stuff was done "by hand"- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 23:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
"It doesn't matter if people stop playing the game when there's nothing new being released; how many people come back after something new is implemented (be it a content update or GW2) is all that really matters."
Sorry to break it to you, but the two are intimately connected. GW2 will not succeed without heavy support from the GW1 crowd. GW is too niche of a game concept to be sold to a huge number of people. Granted, GW2 will be more MMO-y than GW1, but they're still going to make all the marketing fuckups they did in GW1 - lack of monthly fee, lack of real promotion, lack of commercials, etc. The longer they wait between content updates, the more people they lose that will never come back.
I've seen the whole "when new stuff is added, people will return" argument applied to WoW, and I sort of understand it, because WoW actually gets new content added. Guild Wars doesn't. Just last week, WoW got the onyxia raid revamped with new loot, new achievements and a new mount. Before that, in 3.2, Trial of the Crusader raid came out. An entire raid was added to the game. Before that, Ulduar. What has Guild Wars seen in the same time frame? A pet menagerie that isn't actually content, and will definitely not bring anyone back? Micro-transactions to give ANet money? You think either is going to bring people back?
The only hope ANet has of bringing people back with anything they've announced lies with Sealed Deck. There are still, however, problems with that - sealed deck will only bring back PvPers (which is a small percentage of the GW community as a whole), and from the way things look, it's going to be a failed game type anyway (4v4 is terrible in a game designed for 8v8).
What is ANet adding that will bring people back? What is ANet adding that will keep people from leaving? That's the kind of stuff Salome wants to hear about, and that's the kind of stuff ANet has completely neglected to mention. -Auron 23:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
"lack of monthly fee" yea no that is a selling point and they need to push that in wow users face.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 23:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I called my buddy who still plays Everquest, and apparently they get around 2-3 updates per month, and a content update once every 1-2 months. EQ is 10 fucking years old. Damn, man. (I do agree with Zesbeer about the no monthly fee thing. That's one of the main things that seperates GW from other similar games). Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 23:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
WoW is a far superior game, Zesbeer. You could push that in WoW users faces and get laughed at because you're playing a shitty game. You know how the adage goes - you get what you pay for. -Auron 23:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
^ it's true. But honestly, at this point, I'd settle for any game with regular updates (I'm seriously considering trying EQ on my friend's account. That's how bad it is). Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 23:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
(EC) wow may be a "good game" but its pvp is a joke because of the games Grind tastic mechanics as were in gw you can go in right away and be on an even playing field as some one who as played scene the game came out. (gear wise) i mean you have to grind for ever to get good enough armor or even be at a level were you can pvp in wow. forgive me if i am wrong about that but that's what i have hurd from friends there is no way i am going to get wow with a $15 a month fee let alone they are also using gws model of chapters but they are calling them expansions. that you have to pay for mind you. anyhow if you want to continue the argument of wow vs gw we need to do it else were.(not on my talk page because after this post i dont care)- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 00:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Auron, no one coming back when no content is implemented doesn't mean no one would come back when new content (aka GW2) is released. Guild Wars 2 does not need people to be playing GW1 every day of their lives in order to be successful, just like no one (sane) has been playing StarCraft daily for the last ten years yet SC2 has a huge following. All that matters is that people who played GW1 had fun when they were playing the game. Erasculio 00:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
"you get what you pay for"
You saw the Norton commercial, didn't you? I give it a well-deserved 9/10. —Jette User Jette awesome.png 00:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Erasculio, you can't deny that to some degree (regardless of how small) people leaving GW1 influences the selling power of GW2. For the most part, the people I've seen leave have left angry...and that tends to be bad for business. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 00:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm only halfway through reading Auron's take on this but have to stop and post b/c I couldn't agree more with it. ...Anet doesn't have a Marketing or Community Relations department b/c NcSoft in general doesn't have any of those things either. It's a systematic pattern of failure where "the acorn doesn't fall far enough from the tree"... --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 00:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
(EC) IMO, people playing GW1 hurts GW2 more than people leaving GW1. Which is simple: the game is years old, Arena Net does not have enough manpower or resources to continually add new content to the game. How could they add content that is easy to make yet keeps players busy for months? Simple, through grind. Therefore, in order to keep players busy, the simplest approach is to add tons and tons of grind to the game, such as originally seen on Eye of the North. Such measures actually hurt the game far more than players doing everything they want in the game and leaving (quietly, as opposed to the vocal minority who likes to rage as they leave) to do something else while waitint for the sequel. The idea that replayability of games HAS to be measured in years is a lie that came from the monthly-fee based MMORPGs, in which time spent actually equals profit for their developers. For GW, in which it doesn't really matter if someone plays one hour per day or one hour per month, allowing people who enjoyed the game to stop playing and only come back once in a while is actually a boon. Erasculio 00:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Although i see Erascluio's point, the problem with it is that he's over simplifying it. People aren't leaving in an amicable way. People instead feel neglected and ignored and are leaving in a strop. That kind of treatment does not motivate people to pay for another game which they will just get bored of again in 2 years and then neglect to death. This is the concern and this is the main issue. They have not been straight with us at any point and kept us updated, instead we have been patronised with rhetoric and told its "free" which it really isnt when you factor in game costs and micro transactions. I love GW, however the way anet treat its user base does not motivate me to stick with them. For example I used to have my phone on vodaphone as imo it was excellent coverage, however if anything went wrong, vodafone were a nightmare to sort anything out with, thus i cancelled my contract and have never been with vodafone again in spite of the fact that the product was good, the company's attitude towards me drove me away. Anet is doing the same. -- Salome User salome sig2.png 00:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
See my point above about the replayability of games having to be measured in years. Have you ever played an adventure game, that had next to zero replayability and would be finished in hours? Those were all the rage, some years ago, despite their short duration. Guild Wars follows the same path - it does not have to keep players glued to their computers for ten years; not because it's free so it wouldn't need content, but rather because it's free so Arena Net does not get more money the longer people play. This, in turn, leads to a lack of time sinks that is actually a big improvement over other MMORPGs (instant map travel, anyone?). You could increase how long someone plays GW by adding more and more time sinks (let's remove map travel and add mounts, fooling people into thinking the big time sink of actually having to walk everywhere is actually a feature), but then the game would become far worse than it is.
In less words: if you bought the game and had fun with it for full two years, what else do you want? Erasculio 00:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
As nice as the whole approach sounds - just as the end old did, Arenanet has proven it's hit or miss with what it says it's going to do. Regina will, like a scratched record, either turn around and say "things change" which is actually something I'm getting sick of hearing because it's a double-ended sword with how much Arenanet actually says it, if things are changing too much you have to start to wonder at their ability to actually do their jobs, or "we don't have anything to tell you", which at the start of a development cycle is true, but near the end, not so much. I had high hopes for this 'new approach' until I looked through prior information, then saw those PAX videoes, got stunned with Linsey's logic with speed clear groups and "at least you can play", then my hopes and my taking her and Arenanet seriously honestly ceased. Yes, they produced a good series of games, and I'm sure GW2 will be very nice, but their follow-through is terrible. ~~ 00:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Salome: Have you been spying on us? ;-) Seriously, the timing of your post was uncanny. I've been working on an update to my wiki blog that hopefully addresses your points. Look for that tomorrow. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 00:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
As long as your post doesn't say, "Here's what we're working on, but it's delayed" or "We're changing the way we're doing things" I'll be happy. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 00:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
That up there is funny. It reminds me of the time people came on Regina's talk page wondering if she actually played the game, because no one was hearing anything from here, in-game or on here. It's funny, it's always the day after someone has a bit of a serious rant on Regina's page that something actually happened. Good times, good times. ~~ 00:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
(EC) Though luck, then. Being privy to the development of a game means often hearing "feature X has been cancelled", "feature Y has been delayed" and so on. That's why, in the end, I don't think it's worth to tell the community more about the process of developing a game: the players simply don't understand how a process this large happens, or how deadlines are more often than not just guesses, and so on. See all the complains about how the last content update would have been delayed, about how GW2 would have been delayed or announced too soon, and so on. Even Blizzard had to learn this lesson: compare what they had released about WarCraft 3 (in which they talked about very early concepts, most of which were trashed) and what they are releasing now about Diablo 3 (only information about the almost finished game). Erasculio 00:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Eras, you must either work for Anet (kidding) or you're the biggest kiss-ass I've ever seen. I mean, seriously man, do you not get frustrated about GW1 lack of updates? If you're just not playing the game and don't care, then why are you here? Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 00:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't get frustrated about the lack of GW1 updates because I see some of the limits Arena Net has. They can make very good games when they have time and when they listen to their own designs, but when they have to hurry (see the GW:EN armors) or when they actually listen to the players (see assassins, the title grind on GW:EN, etc) the game suffers for it. I still have a lot to do on GW1 (so much stuff, in fact, that I'm not sure I'll have enough time to do all of it before GW2 comes), and I'm happy to see that Arena Net has invested their very limited resources on small features that improve the game (see the menangerie) instead of trying to make pharaonic projects that would end half assed (see how many times the skins of the GW:EN dungeons are repeated through the game) or trying to give players what they are asking (there are way too many examples of how that has hurt the game far more than helped). Erasculio 01:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
You're probably behind on that stuff from all the time you spend trying to shield the developers of a game you don't seriously play; from a community you don't relate with because you use the rationale above to in-turn shield yourself from their experiences. It's a vicious cycle. So on that front, KJ may be on to something even if it's detracting from the discussion and heading into NPA land. Maybe if you tried a little harder to relate to Salome's frustration however, this whole tangent wouldn't have started in the first place? --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 01:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the swift response Regina and I look forward to finding out about anything you are at liberty to share with us. :) I know myself and many guild wars players will be excited to hear how GW will continue to grow.
In response to Erasculio, once again I must disagree with you. Your premise is that the average player is either stupid or uninformed and I simply don't agree. I think the problem is that the least qualified people to complain about things are normally the ones to do it earliest and loudest, thus people notice them more. However I think the greater majority of people are calm and understanding people, who can understand that business is not set in stone and who just wish to be treated like adults and to be met half way. This has been evidenced by the overwhelming good will shown to the live team and Linsey in particular over these last months. As a customer and a person who is deeply passionate about this community, the game and what we have created in this wiki over the past several years, I do not think it is either offensive or unreasonable to enquire as to the future plans for GW1. In fact I think it is a very positive sign to anet and everyone at anet, as it proves they have made a product that people care enough about to ask and yearn for more information upon. (it is when this interest stops that a company should worry about their product) Both Linsey and Regina are professionals, who understand this, neither are offended by genuine concerns being raised, thus I don't think any of us should say that voicing a concern in a polite and reasoned way is innately a bad thing, which seems to be what you we're implying Erasculio. Being a loud moaning troll is bad indeed, being a passionate and interested customer is not.
I would also like to say that on the flip side, just because someone actually agrees with or isnt concerned by something, doesn't make them an anet sycophant. Erasculio is a well reasoned and insightful user and he has a very pragmatic way of viewing the value of a game which I respect, even though I don't completely agree with him in this instance. Thus I would prefer if every time a topic like this is posted, lines are not drawn on being a "fan boi" or a "troll". We are simply all people who are passionate about a game and who have different opinions upon its current state. Regards -- Salome User salome sig2.png 01:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
(ec)Well, I'll try to avoid NPA land; however, I will say that you (Eras) or anyone else for that matter would be hard-pressed to blame all the issues you listed on the player base. After all, we weren't the ones who made the re-skinned armors or grindfest...they did.--Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 01:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, everything in the game Arenanet are responsible for, good or bad. We can't add anything to the game, only they can.
Also, about the whole process thing, education is a good thing. Explaining the process, giving examples, like showing the working why one feature/change was favoured over another gives people some idea of what the process actually is, instead of just hearing "things changed". ~~ 01:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
...yeeesh, the wiki is acting kinda weird today, isn't it? --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 02:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
you mean the loss of data thing? yea i think that has to do with the update they just added... i agree with salome KJ and zero i must say.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 02:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
yeah, I'm dumping data like crazy. Anyway, I fully agree with Salome's last comment and wisb I'd seen it before commenting (but I'm on my cellphone). --Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 02:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion GW is doing fine it just is that we have done almost all things and people who want to play for fun can play for fun but people who play it to get everything lets say the HoM cant since their are minpets of 50000ecto or more. The whole prolem is people want to play the game for fun. But with seeing that things get expensiver and expensiver since people grind HB zquest or dungeons people are being pushed in go grind or you dont get it. But guildwars doesnt need to keep players playing the game. But if they make these options ingame it will etract grinders and after a while they say. He I wants money but I am bored of grinding Dungeons and HB is to easy. And now people are complaining about no content. But it all starts with dungeons which are overplayed. For instance doing UWSC over and over again in 8min. It is logical that people get bored and want new content. The whole thing is people need to get things which started in Factions. it is just not good for this game. They said you can get things without playing hours and hours, it is your interaction which mathers. But in faction they added titles in the game and with eotn HoM. In this way people are pushed to play hour/hours. And this just doesnt fit in a game which says we are anti grinding. In my opinion they just need to delete the title system(to late now but ok), make all minipets get able for raison able prices since people now want to grind to complete HoM and other stuff. No HoM since it will push people grinding for achivement(but since they added titles they needed to do this since alot of grind people started playing GW in factions). And they need to remove the DungeonSC and HB zquest farm. I know it's now to late to change this. But this has atracted players who want to grind and want new content. While at the start of guildwars it was based on you play and stop wenn you want. Playing hours for hours isn't needed. Just as in normal RPG's. You play for fun and not to be the best or keep playing. Just play other games and come back when we have got something new. But since the game has changes in time. These rules dont work anymore. They just changed the game without keeping in mind old rules. I would almost say. Things of how you thought about the game you started playing(I mean playing from 4-4.5year till now) and how it is now. Death Sligher. 09:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
@ Sligher: I happen to like doing the ZMission/ZBounty stuff. It allows me to actually work towards getting stuff at my leisure without having to sit in Spamadan all day long waiting for someone to post for example, the Elite Tome I might want. It also tends to send me places in Guild Wars that I've never bothered going to, replaying Missions I haven't done in years, or seeking out Bosses that I never bothered finding before. Honestly, I wish they'd implement a more frequent/persistent Bounty-type system, where the rewards would be something fun like non-tradeable/sellable vanity items like the holiday hats are. TBH, the Gold Coins tier of rewards in the current setup should have been items like this. The equipment bags, everlasting fireworks, etc should have all been made 'bind on acquire'.
Guild Wars and other MMOs are glorified MUDs, and many MUDs have had stuff like the ZBounty/Quest stuff for longer than quite a few GW players have been alive. It's great fun for the players to have stuff like this for them to do in general, even if some of the players don't like the idea or the implementation. As I run a MUD myself, let me share with you the opinion of the lead coder: "I implement things on my schedule, the way I like to implement them. If it isn't broken to my standards, and you don't like it, too bad. Go someplace else and play. This is a game we operate, spend our own money on, and have kept open and updated since 1998, because we love the game, not to please the egos of random individuals." -thejynxed- 11:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
nice, Salome, i was wondering about the exact same thing yesterday. - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 13:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Just a wee update to this post: after reading the new journal entry, I have to admit my opinion has not changed. It was hinted that some of my questions would indeed be answered (questions the community at large continue to voice) and yet upon reading the journal entry, I know as much now as I did before, except that you all like Aion.

Just out of interest is their going to be some actual factual news on whats being planned? Sorry to sound miffed here guys, I really am, but being told we would have info in the journal update and then finding it to simply be Linsey's journal entries beefed out abit with daily routine stuff is just a tad insulting. We still have yet to get ANY actual details. Such as what kinda additions to halloween? What format will this sealed deck play take and how will it operate on a continuing basis? What more can the PvP community expect? (as a new mode will not solve the many issues with the existing modes and stagnation of those arenas), What more is planned for PvE??? Such as new quests, areas, collectibles or general shiny things? Could we please have some actual details or, if not, could you tell us that you can't give us that info and admit that once again this "new approach" of keeping us more informed is not actually taking place, instead of dressing up old info as new info and saying "look we're sharing". Regards -- Salome User salome sig2.png 17:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, I have to fully agree with Salome. Telling us we're getting more info and then telling us nothing (except that you guys play Aion....) is insultng to say the least.
Just be honest with us. Either tell us some new info, or stop lying about this "new approach". People are starting to get very frustrated, including people I know that don't even use the wiki or the forums. --Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 18:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
It was basically "Here's all our busywork/excuses, now get off our backs" with the rather whimsical amateur commercial plug of; "Oh and BTW we're grinding Aion alts with all our spare time" which even I'm quite envious of for it's clever and all-consuming meme potential. Methinks we underestimate them...
But I wish to point out something else just as interesting that they may be underestimating yet inadvertently proved: Here and elsewhere you generally only see 10-20 people contributing what-is written-off as the vocal minority view(s) with 100-200 very irregular posters occasionally dropping by or even piling on. But that number increases ten-fold again when all anonymous users are offered the chance to beta test upcoming changes. This is a pattern I've seen in all gaming communities at one point or another. And as those most 10-20 most-vocal... gradually but visibly begin to lose faith, so do those 100-200 and even the 1000-2000. It's not like a breadline where everyone in the back is so literally physically-starved to inherent the status of those in the front of the line. --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 21:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Salome, again, IMO, I think you are wasting your time. I don't think Arena Net could ever release as much information as you want.
It's not a matter of assuming people are screaming nonsense; it's just that I think you all are asking for more than Arena Net could possibly do. See Karate Jesus' (a "calm and understanding" person, using the words of Salome) comment above hoping Arena Net would not say something has been delayed or cancelled; such comments would still cause frustration, and they would have to happen if the players were really going to be told about the process of adding to Guild Wars. Likewise, we already know that educating people does not stop them from being frustrated about the lack of updates; Linsey has already given a long explanation about why making new playable areas is not viable, yet users still ask for that kind of content rather often.
I believe the requests for more information are actually showing the frustration over the lack of content introduced to Guild Wars; but that's how it's going to be from now on. Arena Net does not have enough resources to do much more than what they have been doing, so I wouldn't hold my breath for bombastic announcements. In some ways, you people think far better of Arena Net than I do, because you believe they actually could fulfill your expectations, while I doubt very much they could do so.
Regarding giving players more information, I think it's a waste of time. We have been told about what Arena Net has been working on; we have been told about what it takes for implementing new content; we have been allowed to be a part of those changes thanks to things like the henchmen bar contest. And yet the community is still saying it's not enough, which makes me believe it won't ever be enough until Arena Net says exactly what the playerbase wants to hear, and that's impossible with the limited resources they have right now. There is a reason why you won't find Aion developers talking as much about the process of making the game as Arena Net has been doing, or WoW developers talking to people about how hard it is to implement something: that kind of speech does not really make the community to feel better, as exemplified above. IMO, this whole initiative is a waste of time by Arena Net, time which they could be using for more important goals. Erasculio 22:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Erasculio, how is it a waste of time? They are still yet to do it. I suppose in this instance we are destined to disagree then Eras. I personally think that a little more finite detail is perfectly possible, such as "we think the sealed deck may work like this...", "We are thinking of adding new quests for halloween, such as...". All that is perfectly possible. Sure I don't like the lack of updates but at least I understand why thats happening. What I dislike more is a promise of more open communication being used as a PR stunt and then not following through with it. I don't mind them not being open, but don't take that same lack of communication and then try to sell it as anything but that. -- Salome User salome sig2.png 23:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it would end either with "We are going to add a new quest in which you do X and Y" only to be followed weeks later by "Sorry, we couldn't do it because we had problem A and B" (actually adding more frustration than if they hadn't told us anything in the first place) or with "we are adding a few cool quests" leading to people complaining that they are still not giving enough details. I don't think Arena Net should be focusing (or trying to focus) around this communication theme at all. Erasculio 23:46, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Would love to add something constructive here, but can't think of anything good. Still in a "did she just write that in a lunch break?" kinda mood right now. ~~ 04:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

A question, I don't know who I should ask it to...

moved from Feedback talk:Gaile Gray

So I'm asking you... or just anyone who happens to read this, and knows the answer...^^

Can you submit a short movie to the halloween competition? If so, wich format do you guys prefer?

I do know this is the wrong place to ask questions like this, however, I'm a wiki noob, and don't know what to do....

So exuse me, and can someone please answer?^^ Charocles 16:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I would recommend asking Regina. Just copy and paste your question there (or maybe someone will move it). Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
A movie is allowed as one of the last contests also had a winner who submited a movie of playing some GW songs on the piano.. Dutch Sunshine 15:52 18 october 2009

We received this question also via email, and we let them know that a short video falls within the general guidelines of the contest. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 23:03, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

european age verfication...

How should I, as a 16 year old european, show Anet that my parents agrees that I'm entering the contest? can I send it from my own e-mail? If I did win, I want my name at the site, and a mini on my account... It would be really kind if someone could help me!^^Charocles 20:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I see you ingame right now ^^--Unendingfear 19x19px 23:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

If you win, you will be required to have your parent sign a release form on your behalf. You can submit it from your own email address. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 23:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your time and help! :)Charocles 04:42, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

About French Community Coordinator

Hi ! One year ago, french fansites such as Mondes Persistants or Univers Virtuels, and in a larger view the whole french community, lost their Community Coordinator (Julien Crevits). After a short period of temp remplacement by Avatea (European CM of Tabula Rasa) during the winter 2008, no other CM followed. I looked in the Jobs Opportunity page Here and it appears it's still open. I hope there'll be good news for frenchies soon. Even if the fansites and the dedicated community do an excellent job bringing and translating news for Gw1 & 2, the lack of Community Coordinator seems to affect the french playerbase. Thanks for reading and sorry for the mispellings and the bad english :) Bibik 10:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

As disturbing as it may be, your use of the English language is far better than that of the average native English speaker. I'd like to commend you on that. ··· Danny Pew Pew 19:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Ousbique, if you hadn't said you weren't a native English speaker, I wouldn't have known. Your English is fine.  :)-- 22:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Bibik: We have been trying very hard to recruit a new French Community Manager, but we've so far been able to find a qualified candidate that meets our needs. We're still looking, so if you have any leads who are interested, we welcome their application. :-) --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 00:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure she meant unable. User Felix Omni Signature.pngelix Omni 00:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you ! Bibik 08:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the update.

I would just like to say a deep and sincere thanks for the journal update. I know I've been a bit of a moan recently about perceived lack of info, thus the new information is much appreciated. :) Warm regards -- Salome User salome sig2.png 22:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

...Which James is she talking about though? --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 23:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
and whats going on with the test crew?- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 01:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
She said on GWGuru that they've narrowed their choices down from several thousand to a "much more manageable" number. And they're reviewing the "Why I want to do this" sections a little more closely. Basically, nothing new. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 01:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
They will select 12 shadow formers, a smite monk, a 600, a QZ ranger, and a defy pain wammo. —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 11:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
tbh, who doesn't have the first 3 of those on their account anyway? ··· Danny Pew Pew 19:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I do not usually run meta builds because I am not a faggot. =3 —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 19:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
So you're like those PvX-haters in RA? :> ··· Danny Pew Pew 19:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
"I do not usually run meta builds because I am not a faggot." -this though i wouldnt have used such harsh words now that i think about it...- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 19:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I am a faggot, but I cannot stand PvE in this game long enough to make an assassin or monk play.--Underwood 20:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Then why are you playing?  :o —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 20:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Observing =/= playing.--Underwood 20:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I play a Shadow Form assassin because then I don't have to actually try. :> ··· Danny Pew Pew 20:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm. Brb, telling Armond to convince his professor he's not an idiot by writing a script to control 8 assassins to do the whole UW clear. —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 20:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Pools or Mountains would be able to handle that without access to the innerworkings of Guild Wars. ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
It's not like they can be any worse than pugs. —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 21:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I wish I could say that that wasn't true, but if you invested enough time, you could identify when Shock was being used. ··· Danny Pew Pew 22:39, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Shock is always being used, in hard mode anyway. My advice for killing them is to exhaust them, it's how I did it when I was a 55 monk before shadow form became maintainable. They'd hit you lol times with it and eventually they'd just run out of energy to use it. Fortunately, they still have to obey recharges, so a script designed to tell when it's safe to cast would be pretty easy to make. —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 22:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
gogo jette - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 11:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Oh, I can't do it myself. All I know how to do is make my hard drive melt (it happened). Besides, I don't have an account with all 4 campaigns I'm willing to toss on running bots. —Jette User Jette sophisticated.png 11:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

8 accounts*. fix'd. User Raine R.gif is for Raine, etc. 14:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd only need one to test the shock thing. –Jette
User Jette sophisticated.png
User Jette tophat.png
15:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
You'd nee--
Actually, I'm going to stop consuming Reggie's talk page now. User Raine R.gif is for Raine, etc. 15:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
hey guys let's discuss writing bots on reggie's talk page ;o — derp de derp derp a tum tee tiddly tum ta tum Maf 17:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

A question about the halloween art contest

We've received a report that a couple players have had issues sending Halloween Art Contest entries to We had our IT Team on it to resolve the issues as quickly as possible. All told, there was a one hour window during which we were unable to receive mail. Because of this, we will extend the deadline. Players now have until 5:00pm Pacific time to submit their art contest submission.

Ok, but how do I know if my entrie made it to you? Will I get an error email or something? Should all players send in their entries again? (I know its stuipid question, but would be glad if you answered):) Thank you!Charocles 22:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

People who's entries didn't make it to us received an error message. If you didn't get an error message, your submission would have gone through. If you're unsure, you can send it again with a note that you'd previously sent it before, but wanted to make sure it got through due to the technical issues we had earlier. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 01:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much for all the help! :)And happy Halloween! :D Charocles 16:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

winner Artwork Contest

I dont know if the artwork from Jason Z. - USA could have won. Since it needs to be a orginial work from the contestant himself. And I have never seen someone tattoe himself on his back. Most time someone goes with the image he want on his back to a tattoeshop and the tattoer makes a tattoe from it. So then it isnt the orginial work from the contestant. Death Slighertalk: Death Sligher 22:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

/signed many times. That image/picture has nothing to do with being creative or skilled. He probably didn't make the motif to be tattooed and he certainly didn't tattoo it on himself. Also, I think there should have been more honorable mentions. Since Anet gets so many entries, why the tiny amount of people, especially compared to past years. Minami Kaori 23:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Kinda unrelated , but winner 10 would be awesome as a wallpaper. -- pling User Pling sig.png 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

That's badass!!! - J.P.User J.P. Halloween sig.pngTalk 00:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
lol pling i thought the exact same fokken thing when i looked at it! wub wub - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 00:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Hey, unrelated to both of those, but remember how one of last year's winners turned out to be a photoshop of a plagiarized painting by one Radojavor on DeviantART? You should take a look at your Honorable Mention Jorge from Spain's entry... and compare it with this one of Radojavor's: 00:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

jojj, anet, fix that^ :P - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 00:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Lol more contest dramaz. Lol. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 03:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As an addendum, the girl with the giant candy corn thing is kind of cute. I think she should have won ;D Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 03:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
FOr the love of Dwayna people. He won. What the UW do you care? Seriously. BlazeRick 04:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
wut? They're upset about the tattoo guy...because he didn't "technically" do it himself. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 05:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
How do we know if the guy who won is the tattoed one or the one who took the picture?--SharkinuUser Sharkinu sig.png 05:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I was talking about the tattooed guy. And i'm saying; who cares? BlazeRick 05:36, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Since the people who brought this up obviously do care, that's a pretty fucking stupid question. King Neoterikos 08:31, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the guy had to draw up the tattoo so the tattoo artist could put it on him, so technically he did it first, on paper.-- 05:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't really a question, Sherlock. Moreso a statement. BlazeRick 08:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Guy permanently tattooes Mad King Thorn on to his back for a competition. Dedication. Give the man some props (or feel sorry for him?). Do you think the cos player made every aspect of her costume herself? This topic seems pretty BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWW to me. Misery 14:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
lol who WOULDN'T want a permanent mad king thorn on any of his/her body parts? - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 14:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I really thought there'd be more controversy over the cosplayer than this Tattoo since; as far as I can tell her B.F. (IE: probably another SO CASH guy who just happens to be obsessed with fantasy) is being handed 1st place just b/c he hooked up with and dressed up a Supermodel who just happens to look like Jora who always looked like every other super model from northern europe to begin with. So it was basically self fullfilling prophecy from the first day that Anet's Art director decided they needed Aesthetics over Content. But I guess realizing that long enough to complain about it would just depress too many people here who spent the last 4 years playing B/C of similar fanservice... friggin nerds. --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 20:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Way to be whiners. If any of you bothered to read Guru, Tzu, the gal who won is a fairly beloved member of the art forums - and she made the whole costume herself (we have progress pics to prove it), working until the eleventh hour to get it done. If there's anything to be outraged over, it's that ANet seems to be stealing an Honorable Mention from someone who deserves it because they haven't refilled the place of that Spanish plagiarist guy. 23:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Way to miss my point. Pretty sure she didn't cast those plastic skulls by her feet herself. What about the brass rings? Did she forge them herself? No? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Does not devalue what she did at all. Likewise, we have no idea about the tattoo. Maybe Jason is the tattoo artist and he offered a free tattoo to someone who would get Mad King Thorn. Maybe the guy designed and drew the plans himself, then the tattoo artist can essentially be seen as a printer, a machine, printing it on to his back. It's pretty ridiculous to criticise either of them on that basis and the judges probably know someone cannot tattoo their own back. Also, lol at the idea of stealing an honourable mention. Misery 12:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Regina, if you haven't yet, you should take a look at this post on GWG: another possible case of copyright infringement/plagiarist Minami Kaori 21:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC) 13:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The cube folding mechanism wouldn't be be filed under a trademark or copyright... it would need to be Patented and there was no information on cubecraft about any active patents. --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 21:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
No, but on the template's original creator' website it clearly states that his templates CANNOT be used for commercial purposes, INCLUDING contests. While the cube folding "mechanism" is not patented here, the template and the original idea of the person designing it is the "property" of said person, and he doesn't give permission for it to be used in such a manner. Minami Kaori 22:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
That's just a disclaimer on the D/L'able content b/c he made multiple videogame & movie characters on there that he does not own copyrights on. IoW: he'd be flying a massive hypocrite flag if filed complaints about this... --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 23:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The point is the submitter of the GW art to the contest used someone else's template, which should be grounds for disqualification as the rules say you must use your own original artwork. Seeing how the two templates match up perfectly, I'd say the submitter copied the template and put his own textures on it. --KOKUOU 23:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
...Which is like copyrighting a painting to Dick Blick just b/c it was smeared over one of their Canvases. ...keep reaching ya'll. --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 01:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
If that isn't enough grounds for disqualification, I wonder if the fact that she used the same words as the original template is (she didn't even paraphrase them).-- Shew 01:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Now you have a point. Plagiarism is definitely a no-no
*awaits Anet's response* --ilrUser ilr deprav.png 02:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, using both the template and the text is plagiarism. The template was already created by someone who thought out all the ways it's going to be folded, etc. The contest entrant just put Mad King Thorn textures over it, the idea and the creativism that goes into fixing a foldable "toy" that works was simply stolen. The fact that the text was not even rewritten just adds to the whole picture. I also find it generally appalling that there's now 2 people who plagiarized other people's work. Minami Kaori 03:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
It's not really plagiarism because the entry-work was transformed. It's more of a derivative work. Now on its own, I believe that the idea of taking a well known papercraft template and making it so that one could create MKT out of it is pretty creative. However, the owner of the template is quite specific to the use of the template. It's a really interesting conundrum, and I think that the submitter could be ignorantly innocent. The submitter did put some substantial creativity and time in to the work. Yet, it is possible copyright infringement because the submitter clearly used the template that was covered under a usage license. Unlike a true plagiarist, I feel bad for all involved here. --Ravious 16:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The difference between adding textures (like the moon and the guildwarslogo) on the disqualified entry and this one, seems subjective to me (and I don't think that's a good thing). You could say the disqualified "artist" put work into blending the moon into the background, but the fact that both contestants used content that wasn't theirs(+ the original artist mentioned that it can't be used in contests), seems like a breaking of the contest rules to me. The creating of such a folding template takes allot of work, and I think it's in a way part of the endresult. --Ellisia talk 16:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for making us aware of the potential issue with the papercraft submission. This information was emailed to us over the weekend as well. We are looking into it at the moment. We have taken down the other entry, following a tip-off from a player in one of the forums.
We're going to see if any other issues pop up with the other entries before making final decisions on the next highest ranking entries on the list.
In future at contests, maybe we should require everyone to submit a "making-of" video in addition to their final submission. ;-) --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 21:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
That or just put forward a suggested winners list and give the community a week to vet them for plagarism for you. (like we've already been doing on this contest and every contest before it) -- Salome User salome sig2.png 11:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick question related to the art contest - why are there only 9 listed honorable mention winners instead of 10? 19:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Please see the update post on my journal regarding this issue.--Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 02:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Salome: We actually had this suggestion raised internally, as well as other methods of selecting the winners (such as a public vote). We'll look at improving for future contests. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 02:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
@regina i love how you guys care about this soo much but when the same thing happened in the henchmen contest you don't give a rats ass.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 02:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
If you decide to pick the winners based solely on public voting, the entire contest will become nothing else but a "who has the most friends" contest. By combining public voting and internal anet voting (let's say the pictures go through a public voting stage first, then anet votes), this could be preventable in a way. Also just fyi, there's a wintersday workshop on the gwguru forums set up, and each entrant is asked to have a gallery available where they post progress pictures and descriptions of their work to rule out plagiarism and to let people see how making such art takes form. There was one for Halloween too, and it was a big success. Minami Kaori 07:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
In addendum, having the public vote first in a tier-like voting system might also eliminate the rule-breaking that's been happening from Anet's side judging wise (see tattoo guy winning as example, or the disastrous henchmen skillbar contest). Sorry Anet, but this is true. :S Minami Kaori 10:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


whats with the anet gvg guild? : DDDD what role will you play for example and how is it going? : OOOOO - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 23:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

ps. I saw the anet halloween pics and you are doinitrite :O - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 02:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
lol reggie does not answer me because she is very evil and ruthless. - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 15:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

We haven't got together simply because no one has had the time to. :-( --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 00:46, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

weekend events

can we please get a calender of what the weekend events are going to be i know you guys talked about this awhile back but i don't think anything came of it.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 23:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It could be more than useful. In case you plan these events much ahead of time. - J.P.ContributionsTalk 23:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been checking in with the folks involved with this regularly. There are several issues here. On the design/coding side, we would like to automate the weekend events, so that a calendar for the web could be created and put up ahead of time. This is something we would need to prioritize with our programmer, and we're not about how technically involved this project would be, or how much time it would take. A second issue is the website itself. We have a lot of different projects going on, and Emily is only one person. Provided that the programming/game side would get solved, we would also have to make decisions on the web side of things. The latest news on this issue is that me, Emily, Linsey, and Joe will meet about it and discuss the project and see whether there is any time that it could be prioritized. Thanks. --Regina Buenaobra User Regina Buenaobra sig.png 22:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)