Feedback talk:User/Talamare/Ritualist Active Spirits

That should do for spirits, Ill start adding spells that interact with spirits a bit later Talamare 13:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

This is excellent, I love it. I'm assuming this is PvX? This would solve a lot of problems spirit rits can have in PvP without being overpowered and stationary. Really, this is one of the best suggestions I've seen so far. Having certain spells destroy a spirit as an effect is brilliant, too, it's like a ritualist Pious Assault series of spells. Seriously, this is perfect. I'd think Wanderlust would last a bit longer than you have, but otherwise it's sound. Perhaps Restoration would die after those conditions were prevented as well?--Alce What's the Build today? 14:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

yea for restoration and earthbind after they run out of charges they die, maybe i should add that to their description... youre probably right about wanderlust, ill change it to 8 seconds instead Talamare 14:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I like this suggestion, good way to make spirits viable in PvP and less broken in PvE. :p --Super Igor 14:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. I'd love my rit even more than I do right now if I didn't feel shackled in PvP with spirits. And, as you said Igor, it's a fix for PvE as well. Really, ArenaNet (especially Linsey), if you see this, please consider this excellent fix to spirit Ritualists!--Alce What's the Build today? 14:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Making spirits "active" is like making Flare passive. It was never meant to be and bares sense. Also 4 seconds spirits are going to fail. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 14:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

fail how, as in fail as in be useless? that would be true in the current format where 4 second spirit would have 45 second cooldowns, but 4 seconds with 20 recharge is viable, not to mention i soon plan on writing spells to interact with spirits to help this Talamare 14:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Two second attack rate. No recharge can make those spirits viable if they probably attack once - maybe twice. Considering the ability to dodge or block the attacks or the spirits to be destroyed that is wastes energy, time and skill slot. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 14:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely unnecessary PvE changes. Sounds like someone is a tad jealous of the success of spirit spamming, and would like to do absolutely anything to nerf it. With the STUPIDLY low life spans of the main spirits you are going to be CONSTANTLY casting spirits, with the potential that you will only have a very small number alive at any time before one dies. I can't believe you are seriously suggesting these MAJOR nerfs after the class has only recently got a buff. And Alce, this is NOT in any way shape or form a fix for something that DOESN'T need fixing. Anon-e-mouse 14:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

@ noctarch, the spirits with 4 second duration dont have attacks, their protective spirits,,, the spirits with an attack that have an extremely powerful effect ie interrupts, enchant removal, kds, blinds... last 8 seconds... which gives them enough time for 3-4 attacks, which is also fair considering youre also getting 3-4 interrupts, enchant removal, kds, blinds... spirits with plain damage attacks however last 15 seconds, which is plenty of time to do 8~ attacks, and are easily maintained with their low recharges... finally @ anon... i dont care about pve... these are pvp suggestions... they can keep the current pve spirits as is, if they want... i dont care Talamare 15:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The interruption is extremely easy to avoid. Dodgeable attack-based enchantment removal is worse than zero-spec Rip Enchantment - even if it theoretically removes more enchantments. And the blind is not only not controllable (i.e. it hits the monk instead of the warrior) it's also pretty easy to live with. The knock down of Wanderlust was never really hard to avoid - its condition makes it pointless against the targets you want to knock down (kiting monks). Oh, and your restoration doesn't make sense, as its description implies that it dies after the first use. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 15:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

This isn't perfect, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. With this change there'd need to be a change in refire rate for spirits at the least. However, the fact is that spirit spamming is a retarded way to play a game that's based around movement any way you look at it. If a character just sits around and does nothing, that's a pathetic excuse for playing a game. This requires movement and skill as opposed to sitting behind a wall of spirits as they do the dirty work. This could be a potential PvP-only fix, but the fact remains that spirit spammers in PvP are lame in every sense.--Alce What's today's Build? 15:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Um, why do I never see people complaining about "retarded skillless" spirit spammign mourn about passive prot, minion masters, farming, punishment hexes, rewarding enchantments - to be short anything that goes beyond "Spell. Deals X damage" or "Spell. Heals for X."? It's the non-directness that makes the game interesting. There's really absolutely no point in making spirits active and not turning them into a spell for a direct effect. If you did, you'd see how boring activeness can be. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 15:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for not being a mindless gamer, but gamers tend to play games. You know, as in not just staring at the party bar to heal and watching your skill bar to put up the next spirit. I don't run spirits because they're boring to play (or would you say "watch"?). MMs are ridiculous, but at the same time they're moving around, as opposed to spirits which just sit there in PvP.--Alce What's today's Build? 15:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Not liking a style of play isn't a good reason to do such a tremendous change. You could as well argue that the whole concept of protection prayers doesn't appeal you and thus submit a suggestion of removal. Such things based on a single person's or a minority's likes and dislikes won't really improve the thing for the community favoring different - partially active, partially passive - play styles. Essentially removing all abilities to play herder builds reduces the amount of options unnecessarily in the end where the current state doesn't force or reduce on its own. Ɲoɕʈɋɽɕɧ 15:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't like this. Most of it was mentioned, and I can add that a 10 second spirit wouldn't last long enough to do any damage. Sure, the recharges are low but this concept has the same effect as it does currently.-- anguard 15:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

At the least, the passive effect spirits would be fine. To make the damage dealing ones more viable, either the attack rate would need to be faster or they'd need to last longer. I still like the idea of having spirits more movable, since they're just kinda planted there in PvP unless you wanna use Draw Spirit or something (lawl).--Alce What's today's Build? 16:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You might fix Shelter's casting time and Soothing's life spam a bit. Raise Soothing's level and duration and reduce Shelter's casting time and recharge. @Anon, Jealous as in "my character can't do it" jealous? Dont be stupid, it takes ~3 hours to fully level and equip a character. --Super Igor 16:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

It may be a good idea to change Spawning Power to increase the duration of these instead of health, although that's heavily unlikely to happen. Scale it like with Weapon spells or something, since (especially those Resto Spirits) don't last long enough to justify their energy cost. Think of them as enchantments that last no longer than 30 seconds, so we'd have some lasting 10 and some lasting 25 seconds or something. And yeah, Anon, I farm with spirits because it's easy to do, although I think it's a lame way to go about it. "Jealous" isn't the word to describe anything here, I just find it pathetic for people to stand behind a wall of spirits.--Alce What's today's Build? 17:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

With this concept the only thing you're going to do is pop half a dozen spirits every second for 10 seconds, then you run out of energy, the spirits die, half your skill bar is recharging and the only thing you can do for your party is /goteam... Besides spirits were never meant to be moved (in pvp), thats why they need to be strategically placed to become useful instead of being destroyed in 3 seconds (same thing with nature rituals). --Johnny Rodrigues 17:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

And while that's true, I still think that this has some merit. I mean, GW is a game based on movement and being active and Spirits completely shackle you. This idea is feasible and a step in the right direction. Ideally, we'd have something like this or that, but I assume that ANet would be more likely to make these changes listed in this feedback than those linked.--Alce What's today's Build? 17:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Im not done yet, but I plan on handling the energy management still by using early spirit destruction to regain energy which would encourage awareness and active play by destroying your spirits a second or so before they die naturally,,, also at the mention of restoration spirit, how should i word it so that it means it dies after the 3 charges are used Talamare 17:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Restoration - 5 ¾ 10 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. The next 1...3...3 times any non-Spirit ally within range is affected by a condition, that condition is removed after 2 seconds and that ally is healed for 15...63...75. This Spirit dies after 1...12...15 seconds or after 1...3...3 conditions have been removed in this way.--Alce What's today's Build? 18:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

thank you alice Talamare 18:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Dude, how much health do you think spirits have? I mean, the changed Spirit Rift for example would instantly kill the spirit nearest you. - Reanimated X 19:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

a level 10 spirit with 0 spawning power has 200 hp, a level 5 spirit with 0 spawning power have 100 hp, the change spirit rift WOULD instantly kill the lvl5 "attack" spirits if the rit has 0 spawning power, if the rit has even 1 spawning power the spirit would live, by making the spirits cast and recharge quickly, im also improving skills based on spirits losing health and increasing skills that flat out kill allied spirits, basically you will be constantly summoning and killing spirits... instead of the current summon a spirit ignore it for about a minute Talamare 19:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Good thing Ritualists have an unlimited pool of energy so they could cast all day long spirits and skills that kill spirits. - Reanimated X 19:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

5e spells and rituals... spirit siphon and essence strike... i dont think e will be much trouble Talamare 19:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The main problem of spirits is that they attack evry 2 seconds and have a delay after creation about 2 seconds too, this mean that your ative spirits do 5 attacks than die. And an other problem is pve where a stupid nuker kill all your spirits and you will have a rituspammer that do nothing >.<. And life should be the opposite of destruction, not an other version of rejuvanation.--Ciotto 20:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Agony and Rejuvenation are opposites, Destruction and Life are opposites, If a spirit attacks 5 times and he has 25 damage per attack, then he did 125 damage for 5 energy, which in my opinion is extremely fair, tho I made it so that the more pure damage spirits like Bloodsong and Pain would get about 6 attacks during their life time giving them 150 and 180 damage respectfully, and the spirits who's attacks also has a side effect would get about 3 attacks and do about 45 damage total, but their attacks could also trigger painful bond which would add in another 60 damage per spirit, (120 from longer attack spirits), not to mention Im suggesting to use the PVE version of signet of ghostly might for pvp as well, which will make spirits attack 33% faster, giving the extra side effect spirits probably an extra attack or 2 which also means an extra side effect or 2... the main thing is that the spirits arent suppose to be godly killers on their own, but instead used to fuel your own high damage spells... in pve using a build like high spawning power + explosive growth + ritual lord, could even keep spirit spam going while doing a good amount of aoe damage, combine it with spirit gift too, and you get spirits, aoe damage and aoe healing constantly for pve

Also if someone nukes the new active rit spammer spirits, the rit spammer would have his spirit recharged in seconds anyways, unlike the previous half minute,,, and again these are all pvp balances Talamare 21:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You have right ^_^. I wasn't thinking that this change are for either pvp and pve my wrong as the life descripion. Afer all this is a good idea. But with this change what do you think about Soul Twisting?--Ciotto 21:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes Soul Twisting, thats one of the skills Ive been stuck on, Im trying to think of a nice effect to give it, tho I cant say its current effect is all that bad, when used with the short duration prot spirits, you could get some very long lasting group wide prots Talamare 21:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"If a spirit attacks 5 times and he has 25 damage per attack, then he did 125 damage for 5 energy" - You can't think like that because for the duration the spirit was up the attacks could have been blocked, dodged, missed or a player could just get out of range or simply healed. Also it's more likely that the spirits would get destroyed before lasting the full duration. This whole concept seems new and inovative but it would end up rather tiresome and exhausting very quickly. --Johnny Rodrigues 01:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that they'd be a high enough priority in PvP to warrant worry about them being destroyed, as they're already widely ignored in their current state. The point about 5*25 is true though, and while it's not always doing damage, it still provides extra pressure. If this were to actually take effect in the Guild Wars world, spirits would be more flexible and adaptive than they are now, and their place on the battlefield would be more as a utility than a play style for the ritualist. I'd think a little box (like what MMs have) saying "You have X spirits summoned" would also be a benefit, but that's just a little bonus.--Alce What's today's Build? 02:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't, but there will always be someone who will. Even if they didn't, since the spirit spammer is always casting binding rituals they would only need to target the spirit spammer with an aoe spell to blow up all nearby spirits. It would be wiser to just get a ranger bow and spam conditions on anything that moves. At least the conditions you spam make sure you are really doing pressure. The place of spirits on the battlefield is really about utility and spirit spamming is a role of utility and support. In the guild wars world (PvE) there is something called Summon Spirits. --Johnny Rodrigues 03:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Plus, at lvl 7 spirits would die in 2 hits... - Reanimated X 07:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I added a signet that protects spirits for a short amount of time if they are really getting pressured, spirits with extremely short duration wouldnt be worth killing, since all youre doing is spending 2-3 hits killing something that would probably auto kill itself within that time, longer lasting spirits have the shortest cooldowns of all, so even if someone really is running around chasing your spirits or specifically hunting down your spirits with aoes (which you really shouldnt ball your spirits up, thats bad play on your style), the spirits will probably have less cooldown then their aoes... personally i would be glad if the ele is using his 200-300 damage fire spells with 30 second recharge to kill a spirit that will recharge in 10 seconds... for channeling elementalist, I increased the damage of most of their spells but added to their spells that spirits around them lose health, and cant get the full effect of their spells without good spirit management, this is done for 2 reasons... 1 it allows an extra level of thinking for channeling dpsers, by having the need to consider how much health their spirits have left, and 2 to prevent rit spikes, for example - im suggesting to buff lamentation which ignores armor and deals high damage... but you need to kill a spirit for this to happen, which means its harder for rit spikes to occur, but not completely impossible Talamare 07:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

So your suggestion is: Cast a spirit, he gets killed in 2 seconds by a Ranger, repeat. That's monotonous and boring imho. - Reanimated X 08:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Well currently its - You "try" to cast a spirit, interrupted by the ranger... wait a minute before trying again Talamare 08:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Ritualists already have this. With the proposed duration/recharge of the spirits you're going to be spending all of the match popping spirits every second, you don't need to target the spirits to destroy them, you can just target the ritualist that he'll blow up with the spirits that he is constantly spamming 24/7 (I already said this). That's how lame it will be. Channeling elementalists? lolwut? Why would you want to run channeling when the elementalist has a lot better options? If the spirits around you have to suffer from health loss then the spirit you just put up a second ago is going to be instantly vaporized. It's not fun it's: boring, monotonous, tiresome and exhausting. --Johnny Rodrigues 11:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets assume a "spirit spammer" bar, with about 5 spirits, 1 energy management skill, 1 defensive skill, and 1 rez... and lets say you use the slowest casting, longest recharge spirits... then yes, you will spend all match casting spirits... but thats because you chose your bar to be comprised of only spirits... yes the spirits hes making will die fast, but thats intentional... if theres someone in the enemy team actively hunting them down, you could probably consider that player to be disabled since hes wasting his time killing spirits that would die 1 second after he killed them, and the short duration 2-3 seconds you kept that shelter or union spirit up was probably enough to reduce the damage your team took by a couple hundred... so you are actively supporting your team while a player on the enemy team stupidly disables himself... this might be a "lame" way to play for "YOU" but some people enjoy it to be honest... now lets say youre a resto ritualist with 3-4 heals, 2-3 spirits and 1 energy management skill... the spirits you cast now cast 3x! faster, and are just as tough as before, so its much harder for people to actively hunt your spirits down, not to mention the resto spirits have really short recharges, which means that if someone actively hunts your spirits down, it can be effectively said that the spirits prevented the last 2-4 attacks that the enemy used to dispose of each one... now you said "why run a ritualist when elementalist are auto better", well yea youre right, elementalist really are auto better CURRENTLY, which is why im suggesting to buff the ritualist damage spells in a way that they are able to provide solid dps while providing a different style of play... hell with what you just said then it would expand into why bring a dervish, when a warrior is auto better... etc... its because they provide a different style of play... thats what im trying to do by changing the ritualist channeling ling, provide good damage in a none abusable way, which hopefully wont lead to degenerate rit spike teams again which providing ritualist with a potentially interesting style of play..... currently spirit spammer builds in both pve and pvp are rather boring, since you only cast 2 minute duration spirits, with crap survivability, with slow cast times(changed in pve but w/e), the other spirits like shelter and displacement are total crap, and spirits like disenchantment and dissonance have insanely high cast times and massive energy costs considering they will probably be killed first... if you even manage to get them to cast at all since they will probably be interrupted in the last second of the 5 second cast time, which means you wasted 4 seconds(pvp) the only spirits that are currently even used are restoration and life,,, and OCCASIONALLY someone tries to be a damage ritualist with pain and bloodsong(pvp).......Talamare 12:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

For the third (and hopefully the last) time: "you can just target the ritualist that he'll blow up with the spirits that he is constantly spamming 24/7". You don't even need to target the spirits, they are so damn weak they'll even die from a couple random wand attacks. Spirits that die after 2 or 3 attacks are bad. Also the resto build will not work even with the new cast times because you will be busy casting spirits instead of healing, even if it has one or two seconds cast time it's still enough to not heal an enemy spike on one of your allies. You said "Channeling Elementalists", and as far as anyone who can read channeling has only a couple of good damaging spells, that's why I said that the elementalist himself has far better options to play with. Having low survivability in pvp is critical to keep them balanced, while in pve you just had a buff not long ago which increased their health, armor, cast time and overall survivability. Those spirits have high cast times and low survivability in pvp because they are overpowered. Take Disenchantment for example, It's like having a mesmer using shatter enchantment on you every 2 seconds. --Johnny Rodrigues 13:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"you can just target the ritualist that he'll blow up with the spirits that he is constantly spamming 24/7" - doesnt make any sense, What does it even mean, you spike the ritualist and he auto dies? is he a noob with 400 hp? or is he pro using a shield set with 600+hp while using +15 armor while affected by a weapon spell, which gives him 80~ armor, if hes constantly spamming spirit, he can take the new armor of unfeeling to have base 15 damage reduction on top of that, not to mention as a ritualist he would still be able to use weapon spells like weapon of warding or resilient weapon to increase his survivability even further... so what the hell does "just target the rit mean", anyone can die if you spike 10 people on them,,,, the spirits that are purely party buffs spirits NEED to auto die after a few seconds, if they dont then we will get lameway spirit spammer teams who just constantly chain over powered defensive spirits creating stale defense webs, at the very least their useful for the few seconds their up and recharge quicker, unlike now that also last about 3 seconds even without anyone attacking them because of their massive self damage, have 5 second cast times and wont recharge till november, rit healers wont have to "constantly" cast spirits, their spirits are tougher then others and the spirits actually help heal as well..... Channeling atm really only does have a very few amount of good skills, not nearly enough to make a solid build anymore, which is why Im proposing to buff most of their damage spells... but in the same time I dont want to see rit spike teams dominating the meta, which is why I added the high restriction of spirit destruction and spirit damage to be able to cast their spells..... Disenchantment is a strong effect which is why i made it weak as its base, it does low damage, the "random" targeting of spirits also mean they might not even attack someone who is enchanted, and even if they do, they only get about 3 attacks off, which means it removes at most 3 enchantments every 20 seconds for 15 energy with 2 cast time, and is semi uncontrollable (no spike potential)... Talamare 13:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me reword it for you. With this suggestion the ritualist is going to be able to cast binding rituals faster and more often than before. Since the spirits also last much less than before you'll need to constantly keep spamming them. With this information anyone can use an area-of-effect spell (like rodgort's invocation for example) on the ritualist that it's almost guaranteed to hit and kill the nearby spirits. If you use those insignias you'll hardly get to 600hp (unless you also don't use atribute runes). Armor of unfeeling (PvP) gives 10 base damage reduction not 15. Disenchantment (or any other overpowered spirit) damage is not important, it's the ffect that that attack has that matters. You can say that blinding flash only does little damage but the truth is people don't use BF for the damage they use it for it's effect. Even if it removes only 3 enchantments it's still better than any non-elite enchantment removal. Pretty much the only useful thing you can control about spirits in pvp is where they are created. --Johnny Rodrigues 13:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

He will be able to cast it faster and more often, but he will spend a lot less time casting, its easy to find 1 second to squeeze out a spirit to enhance all your spells, it is not easy to find 3 seconds to do the same, a ritualist doesnt need to constantly cast spirits, yes they have less duration but you dont really need to cast that many spirits, a resto or a channeler rit only needs 1-2 spirits for them to be more effective, they dont need to constantly keep casting binding rituals like how youre suggesting, and resto spirits in particular are made tougher so that they dont auto die 1 rodgort... Also for armor of unfeeling 15dr I was talking about my suggestion to change it to 15... I know the effect that matters on disenchantment(and other powered spirits) which is why I made it weak... but do you honestly believe that removing 3 enchantments randomly with no spike potential since its random every 20 seconds for 15 energy with 2 second cast time is the best enchant removal spell ever? Gaze of contempt does it for 10 energy every 15 seconds and removals all enchants with extremely high spike potential, Rend Enchantment does it for 5 energy every 20 seconds, also high spike potential, Pain of disenchantment does 3 enchants with good damage, Hell even strip enchantment removes 2 enchantments 'controlled' which gives you spike potential... my suggestion for disenchantment and other power spirits are actually rather weak but 'usable'... out of melee weapons, the scythe counters the ritualist really well since often time their hits will auto kill most spirits the moment the ritualist finishes casting... maybe I should increase the level of a few of the spirits... as for Fire magic, the ritualist really needs to learn placement a bit so that he even that close to his spirit so it wouldnt be as much of a problem Talamare 14:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Just make binding rituals last ~30 seconds and recharge in somewhere around 20 seconds. Spirit Spammers would become more active a role, but at the same time, killing spirits would actually be worth something to do. 10 seconds recharge means "oh, my spirits died, but no matter it has recharged anyway". 20 seconds mean SSes would have to think about where to put spirits down for them not to die easily, yet fulfil their role. Pika Fan 15:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and keep spirit spammers away from PvP, it was OPed when SSes were viable. Pika Fan 15:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Channeling

I think your suggestion is nice because it would change the tipe of game for ritualist. With your idea all ritus have to bring one or two spirits to make theri magics stronger. But the main problem is that spirits haven't an effect when they die and killing your spirits with 2 magics is a big problem. My suggestion is lower the damage done by yourself so the skill that depends by a spirit can be use more than once. An other thing isn't clamour of souls too weak? it have to kill a spirit for do something and do less damage than spirt rift.--Ciotto 16:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I know your english isnt the best so Ill try my best to understand what you meant, Yes with my change most rits would need 1-2 spirits, but I think I left enough rit spells unchanged for there to be "weapon spell" rits that dont use spirits, for channeling rits there really is dilemma in balancing their spirits healths, bloodsong is self healing but even then he cant out heal the damage you plan on causing to him, the ways to make up for this is use higher level spirit like destruction (that actually does have an effect when it dies) or empowerment that goes all the way upto level 15, Also its possible to use gaze of fury quick casts to "heal" spirits by actively killing/respawning them, finally you can use spirit boon strike occasionally give your spirit a boost of health while at the same time doing a fair amount of damage... Clamor of souls might not be the flat out strongest but think about this - If you hold an item, it costs no energy... its 120 damage nearby (spirit rift is 75 nearby and 135 adjecent), finally the damage happens instantly, with spirit rift it needs the enemy to stand completely still inside the damage area for them to take as much damage as clamor, and you can use destruction spirit to fuel clamor to make a strong burst Talamare 17:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Active Spirits

Great Proposals Talamare! Glad to see Skills Feedback backup and running and another passionate ritualist player interesting improving the profession. If you have a user page (still re-learning all the new rules formatting) then please visit our coalition "Ritualist needs a greater change to get re-involved in the game play of Guild Wars" and {{User Rit Challenge}} can be used to tag your page. Welcome! ^_^ --Falconeye 08:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

good first impression

Your suggestions are well. Your ideas are active and fast.
I see just two problems in general:

The Spirits of you live for just a few seconds. They have about 200-300 health points. Well, that sounds quit ok. But it comes to a problem, together with the fact, that your concept uses the health points of the spirits to hardly improve the spells. It all sounds great, but what would it look like in combat?

The spirits die after a few seconds and get rebinded next. Therefore they don't care about losing 20-60 health points. So your spells can drow health points from the spirits and the spirits don't even care. Do you know what I want to come up with? The add "a spirit loses X health" is so uninteresting, that it does not weaken the spell. I fear, that your spells would become that way imbalanced.

The second problem is, that spamming your spirits (even with a single spirit of your list, it would be a spamming^^) would be realy expensive (I mean the more expensive ones). The only way to manage that, I saw at your concept was to use/waste your Elite. That turns into a problem, if you would like to use an Elite spirit.

• Reclaim Essence - 5 ¼ 15 Elite Spell. Destroy Target Spirit, If a spirit is destroyed this way, You gain 5...17...20 Energy

Pretty strong, don't you think? To kill a 15 seconds living spirit every 15 seconds would give you 15 Energy every 15 seconds (3 energy pips), without even aminor handicap.

• Binding Chains - 10 1 8 Hex Spell. For 1...4...5 seconds, target foe moves 33% slower, If target foe is within earshot of a Spirit, that foe moves 66% slower.

To high energy requirement.

• Spirit Rift - 10 1 10 The Spirit nearest you loses 10...82...100 Health, if health is lost this way. Open a Spirit Rift at target foe's location. For 3 seconds foes adjacent to the location take 5...17...20 After 3 seconds, all nearby foes are struck for 15...63...75 lightning damage.

takes 20 of what?

• Gaze from Beyond - 5 2 8 Spell. The Spirit nearest you loses 10...50...60 Health. Target foe is struck for 2 lightning damage for each point of Health lost.

120 lightening damage for free? Only 5 Energy and 8 recharge? That would make Rit-Spikes worse then ever.

• Recuperation - 15 1 15 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range gain +1...3...3 Health regeneration. This Spirit dies after 1...10...12 seconds.
• Rejuvenation - 15 1 15 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range gain 2...5...6 Health each second. This Spirit dies after 1...10...12 seconds.

Rejuvenation is the same like Recuperation, just without the cap of regen? Balance!

Please add the icons to the skills, you mention and let some more space in your entry (to many letters huging each other^^)!

Yullive 13:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

*hurray replies ^_^! happy happy joy joy... moving on..... on Reclaim Essence, I figured I would just copy Offering of Spirit but add in a kill a spirit and make the energy gain 3 higher... I figure you would spend at least 5 energy to make a spirit, so destroying it to gain 3, would still leave you net -2 compared to Offering of spirit... not to mention offering of spirit is in a better line

* On spirit rift, thanks for telling me about the typo... when you have so much wall of text, its easy to miss these things

* On Gaze from Beyond I actually didnt change much, only thing I did was increase the health lost... the 2 second cast time is usually what is used to be anti spike in pvp... the extra health lost probably wouldnt do much to be anti spike

* for Rejuv, I guess I could add some hp losing to it... the main problem is, you will easily be able to maintain both of them... and Rejuv is affected by anti heal skills such as deep wound, lingering curse and soul bind while at most recup is affected by the regen cap

* Talamare 15:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The suggestion Talamare made is strictly PvP. - Reanimated X 13:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like someone wants to be a ritualist hog. Like No other Profession can do ritualist skills as their secondary 'this good'. To be honest, I find this one a joke. Much laughing indeed. Ariyen 06:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

That makes no sense, since the only reasons why people go /Rt is for a few Channeling Weapon Spells or purely for the Restoration Magic. You can still do these things with this setup, it's just that there won't be R/Rts spamming spirits everywhere. Besides, shouldn't rits be able to do rit spells a bit better than X/Rt? You obviously didn't think that through too much, try again.

Yullive had some good points though. The major one about how they'd just be spell fodder is possibly true, so perhaps if they lasted a little longer it'd be more of an issue to keep them alive while you're casting the sacrifice spells. However, I dunno about that, since they'll already be getting a little damage from battle enough to make your spells actually endanger them. If this were to happen, I'd say that Anet would need to try this first, and then implement remedies to Yullive's issue if it came around.

Also, as for the skills:

• Reclaim Essence - 5 ¼ 15 Elite Spell. Destroy Target Spirit. If a spirit is destroyed in this way, You gain 5...13...15 energy.
• Binding Chains - 5 1 8 Hex Spell. For 1...4...5 seconds, target foe moves 33% slower, If target foe is within earshot of a Spirit, that foe moves 66% slower instead.
• Spirit Rift - 10 1 10 The Spirit nearest you loses 10...82...100 Health, if health is lost this way. Open a Spirit Rift at target foe's location. For 3 seconds, foes adjacent to that location take 5...17...20 lightning damage each second. After 3 seconds, all nearby foes are struck for 15...63...75 lightning damage.
• Gaze from Beyond - 10 1 10 Spell. The Spirit nearest you loses 10...50...60 Health. Target foe is struck for 2 lightning damage for each point of Health lost by a Spirit in this way. Or
• Gaze from Beyond - 10 1 8 Spell. The Spirit nearest you loses 60...108...120 Health. Target foe is struck for 1 lightning damage for each point of Health lost by a Spirit in this way.
• Recuperation - 10 1 15 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range gain +1...3...4 Health regeneration if they are under the effects of a condition or hex. This Spirit dies after 1...10...12 seconds.
• Rejuvenation - 15 1 15 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range gain 3...5...6 Health each second. This Spirit dies after 1...10...12 seconds.

As far as your new Spawning Power idea, I'm pretty "meh" on it. I'd have it increase the spirits' lifespan by 3% or 4% per rank as well as its current function.--Alce What's today's Build? 13:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I balanced binding chains around elementalist water snares but that might have been wrong to do, since Rits wont have attunement and aura of resto... Talamare 15:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

A 120 point damage skill needs to have 2 second cast. Even if it is conditional or w/e. At this point, if these changes are implemented, it would seriously unbalance high-end PvP play. Please look into certain skills with powerful effects, such as wonderlust. Wanderlust was not designed to be maintainable, and it's too cheap for its powerful effect. The long recharge was there so that there was a risk running such a powerful skill as this. Pika Fan 15:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, lemme fix Gaze. Gaze from Beyond - 10 2 10 Spell. The Spirit nearest you loses 10...50...60 Health. Target foe is struck for 2 lightning damage for each point of Health lost by a Spirit in this way.

And I agree with Pika for Wanderlust. Perhaps: Wanderlust - 10 1 30 Elite Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...6...7 Spirit. that dies after 1...16...20 This Spirit's attacks deal 5...25...30 damage. Whenever this Spirit's attack hits a stationary foe, that foe is knocked down and this Spirit loses 80...52...45 health.--Alce What's today's Build? 16:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I like your suggestion Alce except the losing health part. Wanderlust's attacks could easily get obstructed, it is a low level spirit, and it attacks a random target. - Reanimated X 16:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I just kept it like it is now, just short-lived. It'll keep Rits from spamming sac spells around it (since it's already hurting itself), which is a good trade-off imo.--Alce What's today's Build? 17:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) No, it's not a good trade-off. You forget the fact that Wanderlust is an elite skill. Who'd take Wanderlust instead of Dragon's Stomp for example? Reanimated X 17:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I increased wanderlust energy cost to 10 recharge to 20, it should still be really powerful just a little less crazy Talamare 18:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Haha. -> shouldn't rits be able to do rit spells a bit better than X/Rt?" You might as well say that for other primaries. Like Shouldn't Monks do Their Skills better than X/Mo? Shouldn't Elementalists do Their skills better than X/E ? Shouldn't Assassins do better than X/A? Shouldn't Dervish do better than X/D? On and on. Really, It's like you guys are trying to make Ritualists special. What's 'special'? What's 'special' about any of these that aren't named or I named that doesn't allow players to enjoy or use to help?

To be honest. It's a personal issue I think you ritualists have. Get over it. Anet has it fixed the way they see fit. Same with other Professions, etc. on most Skills. I can see a bit of a change in one skill or two, but trying to change the profession to make it 'special'?

It's a laughing stock and I figure Anet is laughing, but they might take a few skills into consideratoin here and there, but not change the whole thing on ritualists, just to please the fans of them. you might as well change the quests, etc. for them. I don't see fairness.

The thing here I think is they want feedback to make the game it's self better. Not on those insistant to make rits 'special' As I figure, they'll work on assassins in making them not so special to be used in certain areas where it seems they're mainly used for specialty. Same with monks, etc. Because each profession should be about fairness and workable as well as usable as you can mix the professions anyway. Except the attributes towards primary like divine, energy storage, etc. so you can't make the skills in those areas better to use as a secondary. That's the only thing I See that's different with professions and enables the primaries the benefits.

I don't care to be picky, I have many professions characters and I would like to have one of each to learn to play with , etc. It's just annoying when someone has to be picky with a LOT of skills (almost a whole section in one of the areas). A few, fine. A lot? Go play another game if you're gonna be truly so judgmental on how they do their professions in the first place. Honestly, You can go too far with 'skills' and your way, instead of thinking how it'd be helpful in general.

There are a few in that list I do see beneficial though. Just more I don't see that would make them better. Or help much. Just my opinion. Ariyen 18:43, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe these changes are strictly PvP. - Reanimated X 18:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not stated either way. Would be nice on that too. To state in post (This is for Pvp or This is for Pve) to save confusion on people. If it's just posted in the skills section. Ariyen 18:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I added a line saying this is for pvp in bold and underlined... and yes i have a problem with the way they balanced ritualist... or should i say in the way they DIDNT balance them... all they did was nerf 90% of their skills to be completely unuseable... these days if you see a rit in pvp they get either called flagger or mocked... not that it matters since now with the ether prism buff there isnt even a need for primary rits to run flag anymore...... Do I really believe that anet will take my suggestion? hell i doubt they will take the suggestion for a single skill... but it doesnt matter, ill still try Talamare 19:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Well done, Alce. I most like your idea for Rejuvenation and Recuperation.

"on Reclaim Essence, I figured I would just copy Offering of Spirit but add in a kill a spirit and make the energy gain 3 higher... I figure you would spend at least 5 energy to make a spirit, so destroying it to gain 3, would still leave you net -2 compared to Offering of spirit... not to mention offering of spirit is in a better line" (Talamare)

I don't bind the spirit for gaining energy with this elite. I create the spirit for his effect. When his life span gets to the end, I offer him. For Offering of Spirit I do need that spirit too. Reclaim Essence like you want it wasn't to strong with the old spirits. But now, when you can rebind the spirit every 15 seconds (and you have to do it anyway), the handicap is still minor. Of cause, compared with Offering of Spirit it even seems to weak. But with your fast created spirits, this spell needs to be nerfed to.

"(...)so perhaps if they lasted a little longer it'd be more of an issue to keep them alive while you're casting the sacrifice spells." (Alce)

20 seconds life span (and recharge) would be possible, I think.

I realy don't like your suggestion for the Spawning Power effect. The Rit isn't a Nec and a Nec even can use more than one Minion of the same kind. This effect does just hurt the Ritualist und makes playing spirits without Spawning Power impossible. And max 6 spirits?

Spamming the spirits can become expensive. Why don't use Spawning Power for gainig energy? Maybe the Ritalist draws some energy from the spirits (which they don't use).

Every time the Ritualist an Item Spell, a Weapon Spell, or an Bindung Ritual, every spirit in earshot loses 5 energy. The Ritualist gains for every point in Spawning Power 3% of the drawn energy (maximum 10 energy). (just came into my mind)

I like your Cruel was Daoshen.^^

Yullive 20:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Offering of spirit doesnt actually NEED spirits for energy, you just lose some hp if ya dont... reclaim on the other hand absolutely needs it and is in a crappier attribute, so its okay if its a bit stronger... compared between the 2 its about half a pip extra energy compared to the recharge..... Most ritualist builds will at most need 2-3 spirits, which means only needing 3-6 spawning power... only a few spirit spammers will need higher then that, and this provokes them into getting much higher spawning power, also even if its max 6 spirits, you only have 8 skills anyways and its 1 spirit = 1 skill... so it hardly matters if 6 is the max, tho 5 is the more realistic number, also remember these are pvp suggestions... in pvp that imba make 3 spirits skill doesnt exist Talamare 21:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I wrote "Of cause, compared with Offering of Spirit it even seems to weak. But with your fast created spirits, this spell needs to be nerfed to.".

Maybe you didn't understand, so: Of cause, compared with Offering of Spirit it (Reclaim Essence) even seems to weak. But with your fast created spirits, this spell (offering of Spirits) needs to be nerfed to.

Why do you want to give the Ritualist new borders instead of giving him a useful boni on Spirits with Spawning Power?

Yullive 22:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Offering of spirit is balanced, its practically a copy of offering of blood... reclaim is slightly stronger but slightly more limited so im not

sure what youre suggesting me to do

i personally dont think spirit spamming is a good thing to do in pvp, often times spirit spammer will take channeling/communing and have a bar with pretty much only spirits then run around making turret i dont think this is a good build, nor good gameplay but preventing it completely feels wrong as well, at the very least limiting it, not to mention this suggestion slightly help force people to use ritualist primaries, since n/rt&e/rt healers tend to use 2 or more spirits each (life, recovery, recuperation), not to mention it will also slightly help force people to raise spawning power for SOME reason, even if its only 3 spawning power to be able to control a 2nd spirit... tho hopefully a good amount of rits will do 6 for 3 spirits Talamare 01:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Still sounds like you want to kill Rt off as secondary. I hope the other professions would feel like cutting their's off and not let the Rt's use them as secondary. Like Rt/R or Rt/N, etc. Still a bit selfish, to be honest and also in my opinion.

Not to mention that I don't think you know how the Primaries of each profession works, at least the way Anet deems them to work - for you to say such as you just did. Ariyen 10:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully understand how primaries work, primaries like ranger and paragon practically need to use their primaries since ranger skills are designed to be far far too expensive for everyone else to work, about the same with paragon shouts.... warrior primary these days is his armor... mesmer spells are designed with naturally long cast times which means they practically need fast cast primary... elementalist spells are designed with exhaust and high energy costs, try spamming 25e spells, yea good luck doing that with the 47e of the other classes or 30-35e if you sit in shield set... this game is designed so that to fully take advantage of the class you essentially need their primary... or at least were designed with that in mind... what im doing is about the same for ritualist since their current ability for spawning power is semi useless, thus no one wants to play ritualist with a useless primary, and its not like im completely removing spirits from 2ndary ritualist, only limiting it... 68.202.136.112 13:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that Spawning Power as you want it limits non-rits, whereas every other profession doesn't require you to have their primary in order to use their skills. Spawning Power here holds people back (even Ritualists at times), which is why it's not a good concept. Primaries are designed to benefit you as a primary and not to restrain you as a secondary. For that reason I prefer my version of Spawning, but it doesn't need to change at all from its current in-game function in my opinion.--Alce What's today's Build? 18:05, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Okey, they buffed Offering of Blood (how could I forget). You are right. Your idea is well balanced.^^

Alce doesn't always give helpfull advices (...), but he right. Just think of the Necro, who is the most simular one with his Minions. His primary attribute gives him energy and allowes him to spam his Minions, like no other class was (before Factions got released^^) able to. But the limit for his Minions was later set on Death Magic. Because of that even second class user can summon some uneads.

Yullive 22:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

it limits people in different ways - monk heals are weak without divine favor... bow attacks are too e expensive without expertise, mesmer spells have higher cast time while an equivelent necro spell has less cast time, necro spells tend to mostly cost 15e because of soul reaping... etc... i feel like i said this before XD...... yes this feels a bit limiting but people need a true reason and this doesnt feel like a bad one...... im trying to think of a better way to make spawning power needed... its not good to get another energy mechanic... longer duration on spirits is nice too, and im not against it but it doesnt feel like it would be enough... even check the history of my suggestion and you will see even i added something about making spawning power make spirits last longer even tho i never made the idea concrete... the main thing im worried about is the communing party buffs being op from their duration being too long... since with ritual lord 20 recharge becomes 13seconds, with 13 spawning power at 3% with the 4 second spirits it will have about 45% up time, with 2 spirit spammer rits alternating their spirits we get group wide 10% dmg cap, 50% block, 18~ damage reduction, with probably shadowsong/soothing up for pressure and feast of souls for massive party heals and spirit to flesh for anti spikes with about 90% uptime... Talamare 22:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It's the difference between having it as a second clas hard to spamm spirits and having it impossible. - Yullive 22:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I like to think my ideas all have a good reason behind them, and I seriously doubt that you're the person to tell me that my advice is in need of work, Yullive. But he's right, Talamare, it's the difference of having the ability to spam spirits okay and not having the ability to spam them at all. High Spawning would mean that these 4-second spirits would be up often, yes, but that limits them to basically just Communing and Spawning, which is a lame combination for the most part. However, chaining them would be like the old (good) Aegis chains, except that the spirits could be killed to end the effects on the party, whereas Aegis had to be stripped from individual characters. For that reason, I think it's fair, especially since it limits your Elite and attributes so strongly. Besides, energy would be a serious issue if Rits were expected to keep up that many spirits (and rangers and mesmers would be ALL over their asses around the clock). Overall, I think that if it should be improved at all, it'd be done in the way I suggested. At least this way people can use a few spirits to help out a team even if they're not a Rt primary.--Alce What's today's Build? 03:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed the max spirits thing Talamare 03:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Just fixed up some grammar here. From taking another look at it, a few skills here are anywhere from a little to way overpowered: Cruel was Daoshen, Mighty was Vorizun, Soothing, Dulled Weapon and Spirit to Flesh. Cruel would have to be at least 15 and holding for a maximum of 30 seconds if you would want to keep it that way, since otherwise it's a cheap, way-too-maintainable, non-elite Flashing Blades or Whirling Defenses for anything that even so much as looks at you. Personally, I think it's fine how it currently is. Mighty would need to be a 2 second cast and 10 if you would want to keep it that way, since that's a load of incredible bonuses for virtually no drawback. Soothing is too killer for warriors and paragons, especially with it being mobile and almost constant in this way. I'd suggest having it remove 2 strikes of adrenaline as opposed to all of it (it'll slow their progress without rendering them useless, which is good game mechanics). Dulled Weapon's duration is a bit long in my opinion, since it's affecting multiple foes and even causes a conditional DAS. StF is plain and simple too much of a heal for this gameplay, since spirits come and go frequently. I'd suggest either lowering the heal rate considerably (50...138...160) or changing the functionality to something else creative. Oh, and I still think that my suggested remedy for the Recuperation/Rejuvination duplication is a good fix, but that's up to you as well. These are my takes on it, Tal, but I think that they'd be much more balanced if you made those changes.--Alce What's today's Build? 14:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I compared the grammar in the history and I gotta say its really a noticeable difference, thanks a lot...... For Daoshen I balanced it a bit towards Sliver, the major difference between Flashing blades, Sliver, Glad Def, Whirl Def and Daoshen is the fact that Daoshen doesnt add a chance to block... and that makes an absolutely massive difference, either way I increased its recharge and reduced its duration... Dulled Weapon is balanced around the necro's related DAS the duration, energy and recharge all fit around it and I figured having 2 second cast time would be a fairly big disadvantage already... Mighty was Vorizun I actually didnt do much to it, only increased the armor slightly because currently it gives less armor then a shield set, and probably decreased the energy it provides since it scales now and I doubt everyone will run 15 communing, the +2 bonus to spawning power is nice but ... its spawning power... Its considered probably the weakest attribute in the game... either way I increased the energy cost to 10...... Soothing is pretty strong but its a 50% uptime with about 3 maybe 4 attacks... Its doubtful the spirit will even attack the warrior even more if it will even 'hit' the warrior since the warriors constant motion will probably accidentally dodge the spirits attack, not to mention there are other effects that reduce adren like ancestors visage which also has 50% uptime and is probably better chance of working...... StF Ill agree, it feels like a cheap passive infuse... tho I wouldnt mind switching its effects entirely but reducing the heal to half as much and keeping the other stats(recharge) feels like it would make it useless...... Ill add your suggestion for rejuv/recup when I come home later, I gtg atm Talamare 19:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"Signet of Ghostly Might - ¼Activation time 5Recharge time Elite Signet. For 1...12...15 seconds, Target allied Spirit attacks 33% faster and deals an additional 1...8...10 damage. Each time target spirit deals damage, it loses 2...16...20 health." So, The higher attribute level you have the faster your spirits die? 63.247.64.102 04:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

That's one way to see it, I suppose. Bloodsong wouldn't be affected by this, granted. The health sac may be a bit high, though. You may wanna bring it down to scale with the bonus damage dealt by the affected spirit or close to that, Tal. 1...11...14 or something sac sounds more balanced. I really like the changes you made in your last few edits though, especially spirit to flesh v2 (although, imo, the recharge should be 12 or 15 seconds). Wanderlust is more balanced now, too. Good work.--Alce What's today's Build? 12:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I made it so that they lose 2 hp per extra damage they do, I figure people who would use signet of ghostly might and painful bond(which has a similar hp sac effect) are the same people who would only put 4-5 spirits on their bars and go for a turret offense, the more effects you add that make spirits lose hp, the more important the higher spirit hp seems, and the more important spawning power becomes Talamare 20:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine then. Unconditional heal of wielder's boon may be too high, I'd lower it to 55 unconditional and keep the 75 conditional, imo.--Alce What's today's Build? 22:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

wielders boon currently is 60/75, i just bumped it to 75/75 to match signet of rejuvenation Talamare 22:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

"* Earthbind v2 - 10 1 20 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...6...7 Spirit. The next 1...3...3 times any non-Spirit ally within range would be knocked down within its range that knockdown is prevented. This Spirit dies after 1...8...10 seconds or after 1...3...3 knockdowns have been prevented this way." Kinda double. My proposal:

• Earthbind v2 - 10 1 20 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...6...7 Spirit. If any non-Spirit ally within range would be knocked down within its range that knockdown is prevented. This Spirit dies after 1...8...10 seconds or after 1...3...3 knockdowns have been prevented this way.

But are you sure it should be "within range"? Seems a bit strong.

I got the this idea from your Earthbind v2:

• Wanderlust - 5 1 20 Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...6...7 Spirit. The next time a moving non-Spirit ally within earshot would be knocked down by a foe, that foe is knocked down instead and the ally steals 5...69...85 health from this foe. This Spirit dies after 1...8...10 seconds.

lol: Wadnerlust - a German word^^ ([1])

Yullive 20:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Alce I removed your name from the suggestion to not pose a problem with the copyrights Talamare 17:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Roger.--Alce What's today's Build? 20:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Agony & Renjuvenation

Talamare what have you done? ç_ç Spirit shouldn't do elemental damage or better they have to do Shadow damage. And i love the idea of opposite spirits (Life/Destruction, Agony/Renjuvanation). Soo please don't change them in this way >.<.Ciotto 15:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Their also doing a lot more damage then currently... Destruction atm does 150 every 30 seconds, my change makes it 120 every 15 seconds... Agony does about 200 damage / by amount of enemies, so like 25 damage per enemy per 30 seconds... my change makes it do a maintainable 8 damage every second... yea its affected by armor... but its better that it can be countered with a lightning shield since it promotes smarter game play... Talamare 16:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I want to support Ciotto for the spirits attack kind. Armor ignoring is important in my eyes. The spirits attack foes they want to and aren't realy controlable. So there maybe is the need of armor ignoring damage. Maybe it should be Holy Damage for countering minions.^^ But in the end Anet would have to do some tests on their test server, because your concept swirls everything. -- Yullive 17:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Agony and Destruction attacks everyone in range... they arent single target like pain and blood song Talamare 18:09, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

My mistake. You are right. -- Yullive 22:09, 23 September 2009 (UTC)