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- I wasn't done discussing you bastud D:. I'm fine with your change to Farmer's Scythe if the Knockdown duration is reduced to 2 seconds, simply because an AoE 3 second knockdown should be restricted to Warrior primaries. So you have to be better if you want to beat the meta? What about equal teams? At top levels, you will not get away with running different builds simply because the people there are probably equal to you (IF you are top-rated). If you still doubt my words, then explain to me why you don't see really balanced builds in GvG. Reducing Magebane Shot's frequency of activation is fine if you compensate by increasing the disable. Besides, in HA, the AoE interrupts of Choking Gas rangers are more desirable. WoH and Healer's Boon are both apparently used on infusers in HA. Now, HA isn't really my pinch of salt so I didn't really research that. Comparing Apply Poison and Hex degeneration is like comparing apples and pears. Conditions require a very different treatment from Hexes, simply because Hexes have very different (weaker?) counters. Also note that Ranger skills give entirely different (much more strategical!) effects. Faintheartedness simply rapes melee, Lingering Curse just decreases healing. Ranger skills, on the other hand, require timing and positioning. Crippling Shot is a great example since it effectively influences positioning. Diversion is an irregular skill to Mesmers because it's actually very hard to pull off. This is a major balance point. Rangers have one long-activation skill, which is usually not worth it interrupting (only Rangers are able to do that and you should have a block stance anyway). Another Mesmer skill that's irregular is Blackout because it forces the midliner to go in the front or backlines. These irregularities greatly weaken the skills so that they become balanced. Shame and Guilt (Guilt is bad btw, why would you want to stop hostile casting?) require timing to use in a balanced meta simply because any monk can see it coming if you use them foolishly. These babies are uberawesome when used wisely though. I give you that. But because they are not mindless (no they are not <:) they are fine as they are. They have a big number next to their recharge symbol, so spamming it isn't an option, unless you run Glyph of Renewal of course. Conjures support the damage part of melee, which is not skillful at all. It only makes spikes more powerful (bad) and provides reaaaaaaally slight extra pressure. In other words, no, damage doesn't require skill. Spirits just need to have a smaller cost, effect, area, recharge and cast time. In other words, they need to become more active. Requires more skill ya know. Well, that's it for now. Have fun commenting on my comment. Dark Morphon 16:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what to comment on exactly, well except for the spirit thing. First of all the meta for HA is limited to easy utility and damage that is easiest to win with in halls. Easy doesn't (well shouldn't) mean better when comparing a skill. Look at Crip Shot and MelShot. Better teams can run balance because they don't need things to be easy.
- As for the spirits making everything more compact, which is what you are doing by decreasing everything, I disagree. Putting them into the fray makes them die immediately, the current system where they're positioned in the back to be defensive and are defended is a good idea. The problem is there are only a couple worth using. Come up with better effects for the spirits and teams must then take them into account and target them. The attack spirits maybe should be lowered in activation and recharge, but not the defensive ones.
- In regard to the rest of your post, it's clear we disagree at the difficulty of using and the power of certain hexes. Some we agree on, however, I've had enough discussion on them.~>Sins WDB
 19:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Spirits were used like that in the past, actually. They were nerfed to death for a reason. It was a passive boring playstyle. Since there are now only a few Spirit skills that are remotely effective, they are usually put on Flaggers, which are dynamic in terms of position anyway. Concerning balanced builds, if a build is seriously superior to a balanced build then the balanced build will not be ran. It's that simple. If it would, we wouldn't see hexway in GvG at top levels right now. Balanced only works when the game is balanced as well. Concerning Hexes, I'll take that as a resignation. You lose, sir sins. Dark Morphon 08:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- "Concerning balanced builds, if a build is seriously superior to a balanced build then the balanced build will not be ran. It's that simple." Like I said, meta builds are easier to use effectively. That doesn't mean they are better, a good ranger > a meta midliner. An average ranger isn't. A good warrior > a ps sin, a bad one isn't. That's the way it is.
- "Concerning Hexes, I'll take that as a resignation. You lose, sir sins." If your ego needs that think whatever you want. Regardless I'm tired of agreeing with the obvious and trying to point out that passive play is fine and can be balanced. Your points don't prove that it isn't and you persist. I'm only willing to talk to a wall for so long.~>Sins WDB 15:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then explain to me why Hexway is used by top guilds. They most certainly have the skill to run "harder" builds. Then why don't they? Perhaps because Hexes are the best way to play? Did that option come up in your mind?
- Passive, mind-less play is not fine. The skills we agreed on are fine (Apply Poison etc.) are used thoughtfully (and thus not passively), Suffering, Lingering Curse and Visions of Regret have proven to be mindless and problematic (look at the current mindless meta) and Spirits just always have been broken. I think that pretty much sums up the whole discussion. Dark Morphon 08:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Top guilds use hexes bcs they are OP. Same reason why top guilds use E/Me or E/D. I've said the hexes in question should be nerfed, I didn't say the passive effects need to be eliminated. Guardian is a passive effect, Troll is a passive effect, blocking stances are passive, frenzy is passive, any effect that is duration over time is passive. Most of the things in question are balanced, but hexes aren't.~>Sins WDB 14:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Guardian: Active in use. Troll Unguent: Requires you to stop doing other stuff, which means you won't be doing your job for a while. That means it's a trade-off and requires thinking. Blocking Stances: Provide boring gameplay most of the time and are a problem in-game at the moment. However, like Word of Healing, they are necessary because the meta is so fucked up at the moment. Frenzy: Really bad example, this skill is not passive at all. Requires you to anticipate your opponent's moves, otherwise you will be fing raped by spikes. You have a really bad definition of passiveness. Look, passiveness is when you don't think about how you use a skill but just use it on recharge. And as long as you think that's fine you will not be able to balance this game properly. Dark Morphon 13:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- The effects are passive, I couldn't care less about their use being active. If you can't understand what passive is read this. Does Frenzy's effect require you to do anything to maintain it? No, therefore the effect is passive. I'm not an idiot who doesn't understand short duration and recharge makes the gameplay more active. My point is passive is what makes this game. Every effect over time is passive period.~>Sins WDB 16:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
You're bad, sins. How the hell is frenzy passive? Because it has a recharge which is lower than its active time?
Passive skills are skills you can use mindlessly. Good job showing to everyone how ignorant you are (:83.249.112.175 16:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hi oni how's the ban going?~>Sins WDB 16:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Read above to see how all effects over time are passive, including Frenzy's effect.~>Sins WDB 17:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I read it, you're bad. Frenzy requires you to have awareness and avoid getting spiked in order to have it maintained, otherwise you'll die.
I havent read all of this. All I saw is that you said that longer active time than recharge is passive. Which means that you=ignorant and baed.
Do you even know what passive is? Here is a hint; Don't consult english DICTIONARIES for GAME TERMS.
That's just..wrong. In some games, your term might be the correct one.
In guild wars, the term is exactly what I said above; stuff you can use mindlessly, not paying attention to. Just simply pressing buttons without being aware of anything which goes around you. A example for a passive skill is mending. You cast it and forget about it. (untill your mana is suddenly gone that is :O)
Get the eff away from the dictionary and try consulting people who actually know about the game. You manage to again remind me of venomfangx on youtube, claiming you know stuff the people who are better than you dont. For rabbits sake, I've been in a top 100 guild when skill actually mattered. Yet you still think you know better than me. Bye venomfang ;o83.249.112.175 23:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- Are all skill effects over time passive? The answer is yes. Is frenzy's effect a skill effect over time? The answer is yes. Therefore frenzy's effect is passive. It's not just a dictionary definition that proves it. It's very basic and apparently you have trouble grasping basics. In order to maximize your effectiveness while playing with frenzy you need to play actively by canceling the skill, but the skill frenzy itself is not active.~>Sins WDB 02:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Let's not have a quarrel over stupid definitions shall we? I call mindless skills passive but that's just my wording. And that of quite a lot of different people. I really think this is a futile discussion, so please let's get to the real business. Why are hexes bad and why aren't a lot of skills you mentioned? Hexes are mindless. Mindless skills are bad for the game. They take away strategy and tactical play. Why is that bad? Because this is a CORPG and it's meant to be strategic. Clear? Dark Morphon 12:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Besides, the only skills you could really call passive are skills that are inherently on monsters. But I'm also talking about skills that are passively used. However, not those that can be kept up. Dark Morphon 12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'll put the argument of passivity on the shelf. The skills I mentioned aren't bad, because their effects are limited in some way. Hexes are bad because they are not nearly as limited as other skills. One problem is obviously duration (long). Another problem is power (high). Yet another issue is they don't have enough penalty, 10 energy for most and 5 or 15 for a few. Power + Duration - Penalty (which is nonexistant due to easy energy) combined with the fact that they are easy to use makes them mindless. This in addition to the fact that stacking makes countering them difficult. However, it's not impossible to deal with by any stretch. The problem is removal doesn't match up with application. Applying hexes and stacking them causes issues, but in additionto this recharges don't match up. Removal is slow in comparision hex recharge, and this combined with the fact that hexes often get recharge bonuses from caster weapons causes further desparity. Hex removal rarely gets this benefit. In summary, removal is slower (in recharge), doesn't remove stacks (unless it's elite removal), and energy management favors hex bars > backline bars. If the passive effects of hexes are to stay as powerful as they are they need more penalty somehow (i.e. Curses 2
 ).~>Sins WDB 20:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Because Word of Healing is limited? How exactly? Dark Morphon 10:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Where did that ^ come from?~>Sins WDB 15:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Pointing out the lulz of your comment. Hexes more limited than other skills? Look at monk skills. They aren't very limited either then. Dark Morphon 17:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- ? I am very confused. Monk skills are limited more than hexes are. Prot skills have limited healing power and still let damage through. Healing skills are limited in that can only be used to restore lost damage. Hexes aren't nearly this limited. Maybe I am just missing your point.~>Sins WDB 05:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- And perhaps I'm missing yours. I'll reread. Dark Morphon 14:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, let's see... You are only looking at what the single skill does, not at what effect it has on the game. It isn't the single skill that is the problem, it's the whole attitude with which these skills are used. A skill like Faintheartedness is like "spam on recharge on frontliner". So is Empathy. Parasitic Bond is like "use immediately after other hex". VoR and Backfire are "use on monk on recharge". This is pretty bad. It doesn't matter when you use it, you're only required to do so. That's why these skills are mindless and should have a functionality change. No exceptions, no number changes. A functionality change is the only thing that will remove the mindlessness. Dark Morphon 14:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- To counter your argument the same is true many attack skills, not all obviously. Some skills can be that way though. The problem is that half or more of mesmer and necro skill bars are made up of those types of mindless skills. If you are saying skills to be asap shouldn't exist I will disagree, I will agree there shouldn't be bars this easy to use given their effectiveness...
^Those type of bars are just stupid.~>Sins WDB 05:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Eh? For attack skills, you have to be next to your target, good attack skills (the warrior ones) require adrenaline which makes it a one-shot skill, no matter how much adrenaline you have meaning you have got only 1 chance to do it right and on top of that they are a lot easier to counter. So adrenal attack skills already require more skill than Spells just because of the mechanics. Only the third of these differences can be changed right away. But, if you do that (ie improving the counters), you are stimulating power creep. That is obviously a bad idea. So, what option is there left? Make the Spell functions on par with their counterability, amount of skill required to play and cost. A smart Spell would be Mirror of Disenchantment, which is very good in its niche and requires skill at all times. Or Shame. But you just won't see that those skills are great for the game. Dark Morphon 13:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- "For attack skills, you have to be next to your target, good attack skills (the warrior ones) require adrenaline which makes it a one-shot skill, no matter how much adrenaline you have meaning you have got only 1 chance to do it right and on top of that they are a lot easier to counter." That's duh information. That's why meleers do more damage than casters. That doesn't change the fact that like spells there are attack skills used on recharge (or charge). If you really want to go with that though, why should melee do so much damage from auto attacks while casters can't have some skills used immediately on recharge? Empathy and insidious counter the auto attack function. I disagree with those skills current power, but the concepts are good given how auto attacking works. You don't seems to take many mechanics of the game into account with your thinking. You seem to think primarily on a skill to skill comparison, this is particularly obvious by your smart spell example of Mirror of Disenchantment and Shame examples. You think Mirror of Disenchantment takes skill, when in reality it takes knowing what enchantments are up to use most effectively. Finally I know shame requires timing at it's bare minimum level to use, which isn't much (so no it's not that great for the game, just ok). You think shame is great, but it's just an OP version of Power Leak, which takes real skill to use.~>Sins WDB 03:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- If it's duh information, then take it into consideration when discussing. You make such basic mistakes that I assume you don't know these basic facts. It's this simple: Since Spells get to your opponent instantly (unless they are projectiles which means they get there NEARLY instantly) they are easier to use and should therefore always have a longer recharge and harder usage. That's simple balancing. Compensate the advantages of something with disadvantages. You know, why Palm Strike is overpowered. Saying Shame is easy is like saying Protection Prayers is easy. Both are used in advance and require you to anticipate one person's actions. Interrupts are good, but also easy to use. A caster interrupt has an incredibly short cast time (especially with Fast Casting!) and lands immediately, without any kind of obstruction. Caster interrupts always hit without effort with even the lowest amount of skill. Does that make them more powerful than Ranger interrupts? No, for three reasons: Ranger interrupts also deal damage (well, Savage Shot does), are capable of interrupting all skills (where most Mesmer interrupts don't) and generally have a much lower recharge. Comparing caster damage and auto-attacking works exactly the same. Are you finally getting it? Dark Morphon 13:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why are you telling me what I've already said? I was saying auto attacking takes no skill, retargeting takes some, but not auto attacking. Therefore I argued that skills like empathy and insidious parasite are allowed to operate in the same manner. I then went on to tell you Shame is not great for the game its just ok. Therefore it's pretty obvious that caster damage having ranged benefits should be less than melee, but as we can see with mind blast builds it is not. I then explained that if something is great for the game by requiring skill then Power Leak is great, I used this as a comparison because it is the same concept as shame (a net change in energy with an interrupt on the desired target). Now you are telling me that for some reason that ranger interrupts are better than spell interrupts. I don't know why, somewhere in our walls of texts I seem to recall you and I both knew this. And from there you go on to tell me that caster damage and auto-attacking work the exact same. While in some cases it does work similarly in other cases it doesn't. So whatever I'm supposed to be getting from your seemingly random post, I'm not getting. The only thing I can think of that you would be trying to say is that melee's dps should end up evening out with ranged dps (assuming of course that teams are intelligent enough to kite), which is basically what I think. If that's not your point then whatever point you were trying to make, if you were trying to make one, has gone way over my head.~>Sins WDB 07:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sigh*. I really don't feel like explaining the same over and over again when you won't listen and instead twist my words anyway. I never said caster damage and auto-attacking works the same, I said COMPARING them works the same. Some more examples of your total incapability to read are in your post but I cba to point them out. I really have to use baby language to get a point to you don't I? Well, I'm tired of that. You're not worth the effort. Dark Morphon 14:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Comparing casters and melee works the exact same? No it definitely doesn't and you have not been trying to make any points, just trolling. The random tangent on interrupts, associating that to auto-attacking, saying caster damage and auto-attacking compare in the exact same way, then downplaying what I say with the statement "Are you finally getting it?". Hell no I'm not getting it. Make some sense and stop trolling.~>Sins WDB 16:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- You don't make any sense yourself and on that bombshell it's time to end the show. You can archive this all if you wish cause I will not discuss this with you any farther because I cba to repeat the same argument over and over again, only to hear something totally unrelated to it. Dark Morphon 13:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Had a quick scoop at yer balance list and spotted a few problems:
1. the death magic corpse explotion spells, especially the consume one which gives you health. It has 0 cd and cast time is faster than any rez. So what you're saying is that any target that dies will be kicked off from play in 15 seconds(including rezzing time)
That's broken.
And vor+backfire: Four seconds longer cooldown in exchange for target dying? I'll take that!83.249.112.175 12:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Haven't really done anything with the corpse thing other than concept it, I realize having them as spells could be an issue. Maybe making them skills would be better to avoid fast casting issues or HCT. I want to stick with a 3 second cast so that it's on par with rez sig, though mesmers can rez quicker than 3 seconds anyways. Besides that though it comes back to who is quicker with a cast and will a ranger shut the corpse exploit down.~>Sins WDB 15:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, the cast time will now be 3 seconds?
Then it's useless :p. And will only be used in gimmicky ivspikeishdeathspikegolemwayspikeish builds.
I suggest you leave it alone. It's a decent survivability skill for deathly casters. And while the thought of stopping rez with it is an intresting idea, it kind of falls apart in its use. It's either overpowerd or only used for gimmicks. (And no, it's not only used for gimmicks now. Not saying that you'd say that but just saying it in advance.)83.249.112.175 00:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Had another scoop, found more problems:
Parasitic bond: It's the entire mechanic of this skill which is broken. The whole cover hex of doom which will cover anything no mattter when he casts it thing about it is just imbalanced. Reducing the stats of it wont change anything. Rework it. Hexes with 4 second recharge is a lolwut.
Weaken knees: Dangerous, it's a passive fire and forget skill with the condition of target has to be moving. That condition is just about as easy to fufill as enchantment on a dervish is. Especially when targeting a monk. So this is all in all a buff to an already overpowerd skill.
Faintheartness: Wtf? If this does not affect an attacking? Do you mean if the target stops attacking during those godamn 20ish seconds, only to get it reaplied again four seconds later? :S
On a brighter note though; I really liked the spoil victor change.
Vor and backfire are still broken, though.83.249.112.175 00:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- Faintheartedness is intended to be determined on application. Parasitic bond is weak and strictly has the role of covering, I just wanted the recharge up so that you can't cast it after every other spell. Before the current nerf Weaken Knees would have pulled the same dps with my change, it would have just required a bit more intelligence to use. I try not to completely rework everything, I pick and choose. People will disagree with me all the time about what and how, but I'm fine with that.~>Sins WDB 05:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Paraisitc bond could have a 1 point degen and nothing else, it would still be op. It's the mindless covering that is the bloody problem. Faintheartness is LOLEASY to use then, It's still overpowerd and broken. Weaken knees got nerfed for a reason, you're basically reverting it and adding an requirement that even someone who has NEVER played guildwars before can easily fufill.
You don't have to rework stuff. But try to atleast think of how the skills will be used in play instead of just mindlessly changing them.83.249.112.175 14:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- I do think of those factors. I also try to figure out what the intention was with certain skills and keep them while making more reasonable. Intentions I don't like I offer an alternative suggestion to if I take some time to think of one.~>Sins WDB 05:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that's why you suggest giving a minimally longer recharge to those skills, TOTALLY fixing the passive play of those skills! If you would think of your changes, you wouldn't make such basic mistakes. Increased recharge helps, of course! But it doesn't fix a skill. It can at best kill it. I tried to explain this a billion times to you, but you just won't listen. Are you really that stupid or is there something totally awesome and unexpected I'm missing here? Dark Morphon 13:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nothing awesome, I just take multiple approaches in my suggestions. One of those things is suggesting nerfs or changes in phases, I do not yet know the best approach to direct at ANet so I use many. As I assume more than one person will be reviewing suggestions. In anycase with many hexes including parasitic bond I am offering phase changes so they are more appealing or less unappealing. Other skills like farmer's scythe I take a different approach. Then of course there are changes that need tweaks. If you are trying to label one specific type of label to the way I offer balance suggestions just know you can't.~>Sins WDB 02:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Minor note, but there's a difference between an effect being passive (ie: it's on you and you don't have to do anything to keep it on you, basically 99.9% of the skills in this game) and a skill being passive (requiring no thought to use, you spam it on recharge basically, ie: pre-nerf Aegis, Lingering Curse, etc). It's not really the definition of passive but then again gamers twist words into their own language all the time. In reality it just means if a skill requires thought to use or not, but passive/active is a much shorter way of defining that, a lingo accepted by the PvP community. Frenzy is a passive effect, but you'd have to rework the entire game from the ground up to remove those types of effects since that's basically every skill in the game, for good reason. (simpler to understand, but still allows the game to have depth from the mechanics attached to the skills and the tactics that is used with them) Frenzy requires thought to use though, and if anyone thinks otherwise they a) play bad players or b) don't play Warrior. So long as a skill requires thought to use it can be good for the game (numbers might need to be tweaked etc, but ye), mind you the skills with active effects (the few there are) aren't necessarily even good for the game either (see: Recurring Insecurity & Aggressive Refrain) 71.113.160.235 06:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- I feel it's a good idea to make people think. Telling someone frenzy is passive makes them go wth is this guy talking about. when people don't get something I'll explain. It's just a way to try to open people's minds up. Even if people are just trolling.~>Sins WDB 08:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, perhaps it'd be a good idea if you'd think yourself, cause no-one in his right mind will use your definition of passivity. I don't need my mind being opened up since I knew these things long before I started this discussion. I can go through all skills appart like you ask, but I will just give the same argument for every skill over and over again since you are repeatedly making the same mistake. Passive play (in the right definition!) is bad for the game and number changes won't change that. Dark Morphon 13:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Definitions are standard, if they weren't no one would know what anyone was talking about. The definition is not in question the application of the definition is what is in question. I was talking about the skill effects themselves in my examples. Normally we discuss the type of play that correlates to specific skills. Using frenzy requires active play, because you might take heavy damage. On the other hand the skill frenzy itself is passive, as all you need to do is upkeep it before it ends. So like I said the definition is always the same, I'm wondering what your talking about when you say no one would use that definition. Passive play as a whole is bad for the game as is spam play, like that bar of skills above. There's nothing wrong with some skills being spammable or using passive play as they add challenging factors to be overcome, but that should be limited (the degree of this limit is where the debate is).~>Sins WDB 07:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
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skill that charges up more frequently than 12 seconds and has 10%-13% armor penetration is reasonable? I do. As for farmer's scythe I can only somewhat see your point in HA, but the adjacent range on scythes is not the same as adjacent spell range. It's in fact smaller than that. In regard to your argument about HB and Pious Restoration being broken there, HB is already broken and the devs have stated they will try to make changes to it. Therefore, I am disregarding that argument.
