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- You are bad. Discuss. Dark Morphon 10:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- I can't believe I missed this for so LONG! Hmm to start the discussion lets go with... I think Eviscerate is overrated given today's skill pool. I think Elite Bull's Strike is the buffest hammer skill out there. I love the change to WoH. I believe passive + spam play needs penalty. I hate the power of the domination line and think several skills need slight nerfs. I think the ritualist class shouldn't be less effective with itself than the other caster classes are with it. I think Dervishes suck. I KNOW scythe dps is not as good as an axe. I KNOW scythes are worse than hammers. I think Scythes are only viable with deep wound spam and that specific aspect needs nerfed. I think scythes are only good with cancels for spiking and that aspect needs to occur less frequently. I think I've got my scythe rage out. Continue to discuss.~>Sins WDB
 05:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, these are views you actually have? Cause if it is sarcasm, I won't comment on them. Dark Morphon 15:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Totally honest above. People misunderstand my point with scythes though, they don't get that higher possible dmg output doesn't mean better dps.~>Sins WDB 18:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, let's comment on that. Eviscerate is just a beefed up Dismember that isn't used when there are certain overpowered skills around (think Primal Rage). It was previously only taken because it was the only elite worth taking, but nowadays other elites have made it as well. Whirling Axe is very popular. Enraged Smash is meh because it doesn't allow you to run 2 unconditional Knockdowns, which is what makes hammers so strong really. WoH change was necessary to stop the insane damage that is around these days, personally I think it's a necessary evil. Passive + spam play is what is the problem with VoR, Empathy and Backfire and just decreasing the damage is NOT a penalty and is which is why your changes to those are not going to stop the problem (just learn that ffs). Domination Magic is, apart from Empathy/VoR/Backfire madness, a great line in my opinion because it requires skill and timing to use, thus promoting good play. The Ritualist class is obviously ridiculous and needs a rework. Dervishes do indeed suck outside of Enchantment metas where their lame high damage gets even better and easier. They just need to be able to do their intended job more efficiently and faster and their scythe damage should be reduced. Scythes are fucking dumb because, like VoR and similar skills, they don't take any effort to be useful and are usually only good at one aspect. So to be honest, if you want to make any difference, you will HAVE to change functionalities. That's just necessary because some skills are simply fucking dumb. Dark Morphon 13:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- ZOMG SOME AGREEMENT! I'm waiting for the apocolypse.~>Sins WDB 05:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah and that's why you are bad at balancing, cause you are not remotely able to fulfill your own values in your changes. Dark Morphon 10:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- That was probably the most ignorant statement I've seen from you... look at my issues with hexway and domination. It's addressed. Take a look at the dervish section. Take a look at the ranger section. Those are addressed. As you can see I am right on with "my values".~>Sins WDB 05:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, that's what you think. You want me to tell you why your skill balances will not accomplish your goals. Very well, I shall. You haven't fixed Backfire. It's still fire and forget. In fact, your change won't affect the usage of the skill at all. For Visions of Regret, you suggest "giving it another function", yet you don't specify what this other function would be. Concerning your 3 strike thing, that doesn't fix the fact Visions of Regret is still a no-risk skill like Backfire and Empathy that require no timing or thinking or skill. Wastrel's Worry isn't used in serious PvP, so I won't comment on that change. I have told you why Diversion is not overpowered on that other page so I won't go in dept on that either. Now, you have some changes for Necromancers as well. Spoil Victor requires you to split attributes, I wouldn't say that skill is really that good. Nonetheless, it's just as fire and forget as most other Necromancer skills so I see WHY you want to change it. Lingering Curse is a pretty harsh nerf, especially considering you did nothing to change Suffering. This would make it actually weaker than that skill and thus taking it out of play. You have to consider that as well. Destroying skills is only good as a last resort and that's not the way you want to go when you can easily fix it without killing it. Faintheartedness is still powerful. Giving it a 2 second cast would be a better idea because it gives the skill some kind of risk. Weaken Knees doesn't change much. It's just better against moving foes and worse against those that don't. That however will not fix the real issue, namely it being a no-brainer skill. Your issue with Dervishes is that they suck outside of Deep Wound spreading which you want to nerf, right? I see how you nerfed Wounding Strike, but other than that you randomly nerfed Conviction (uh?), introduced Farmer's Scythe as the new overpowered piece of Dervish crap (non-elite Backbreaker knockdown?) and introduced potential problems with Onslaught if the meta would shift to a more Enchantment heavy one. Looking at your Ranger changes, I see you have killed Magebane Shot and given a really small downside to Dshot and Savage. Savage can still be used as a spike follow-up skill and Dshot is still just as powerful as it was since you don't use that skill unless you're bad OR unless you know you're interrupting something. I personally don't see how killing an elite and giving a really small downside to two much used interrupts makes any difference at all. So all in all, I don't see how your changes reflect your view on the game at all. And that, sir Sins, is why you are bad at balancing. Dark Morphon 11:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I want passive play nerfed not eliminated, it's fine as long as it's not dominating another team (which it is currently). I have not taken the time to consider functionality changes for all the passive skills due to the fact that it takes me time to consider the multiple angles of play effected by functionality changes. I dislike passive play more than any other type of gameplay so I nerf first and think later for those, especially hexes. Thus for the most part you see slight nerfs to effectiveness. My nerf to conviction is not random. My intention is to make it less passive and used in a more active fashion similar to stance canceling. Farmer's Scythe conditionals only trigger if you hit 2 or more foes. That is tough to time for a specific skill so I fail to see how it would be a problem when it rewards good use of the skill and has no bonuses otherwise. Onslaught I keep hearing about, but it won't be a problem because of a lack of overall team utility in an enchant heavy meta. I didn't kill magebane, I made it have the recharge of d-shot and threw it a bone to reward good use. There is also no problem in using savage shot as a spike tool and d-shot is supposed to be powerful, though it comes no where near diversion's status. The fact that you can't understand a 40% and 20% recharge penalty for misuse of the two ranger interrupts tells me you don't understand the importance of interrupt threat. It also tells me you don't make connections very well as it makes savage shot less accesible for spiking.~>Sins WDB 07:57, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Passive play is never fine. Name me one balanced build that is based on passive play. If you can show me one (just one!) passive build that is not gay or gamebreaking then fine. Your nerf to Conviction is like having a corpse executed. This skill is totally worthless already, so why nerf it even more? Farmer's Scythe is an AoE 4 SECOND knock-down on a class with a weapon that deals insane damage and is extremely good at inflicting Deep Wound. You said Scythes are worse than Hammers. This is true. So why give it a skill like this? Even with its conditionality it's still way too strong. I don't know if you imagine the ammount of pressure a 3 second Knockdown does, let alone a 4 second AoE one. I don't get your comment on Onslaught, please make clear what you are on about. Properly. You killed Magebane Shot because at 10 second recharge and less disable time it's WORSE than D-shot. Your "compensation" is fucking stupid because even if you can hit the interrupt it's exactly as costy as D-shot. Savage Shot at 7 recharge is still a nifty spike tool. It's only 2 recharge more to a chain such as Burning Arrow->Savage Shot. If you want to seriously nerf either of these skills, you will have to increase this disable to 5 seconds because nobody will have any problems with Savage shot on a 7 recharge if spiking. Dark Morphon 15:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- You totally fail to consider frequency with your comments. Farmer's Scythe conditional frequency will hardly ever happen. Since that is a given a good use of the skill should result in a powerful punishment on the other team. Frequency of effect is why the skill would not be overpowered, look at the skill in its current standing. Do you think an instant recharge means anything if the conditional is successful? You won't trigger chain recharges but once in a blue moon and you know what that gets you chump change to two strikes. That's nothing. Low frequency totally justifies powerful effects. It's another skill that makes positioning important. I do believe I have the recharge too low however and I am changing the KD to 3 seconds.
- Onslaught I've been told many times will be too powerful in a heavy enchant team. However, the skill is elite which minimizes the choice for DW to Pious Assault and if a team is really going to enchant heavily they lose out on better utility they could have taken instead.
- Magebane is unblockable with enchants. That means guardian is trash against it and gives it added opportunity to strike through stances + WoW. It basically becomes 2 times as effective against monks.
- Savage Shot doesn't need to be penalized just because it can add quick damage. You can auto attack and melshot for the same effect with a little extra time and no interval delay.~>Sins WDB 06:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I forgot to mention my change to conviction includes being in a useful attribute line and behaves in a manner I like, less passive more active.
- I will give you instances where passive skills are fine. Conjures, Attunements, Healing Breeze, Healer's Boon, Life, Restoration, Recuperation, Apply Poison, Read the Wind, etc. All perfectly fine. Other Passive aspects of the game include attributes and their effects, such as bonus damage for weapons with att > 12 and dual attack chance, etc.~>Sins WDB 06:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Have you ever played HA? Wonder why those Fire AoE Elementalists are so popular? If you already know, you'll see why AoE KD at such a low cost is a fucking bad idea. If not, please go observe.
- An Enchantment heavy meta means EVERYBODY is running Enchantment heavy teams. So in that situation, everybody is low on utility. Thus, your argument falls appart.
- If Magebane Shot is two times as effective against monks then, with your recharge, it's exactly equal to Distracting Shot. I thought elites were meant to be STRONGER than non-elites? Not to mention that I highly doubt your theory of unblockability resulting in double power.
- We are talking about spike follow-ups. Normal attack -> Melandru's Shot can hardly be called a spike since neither of these skills do extra damage. Usually, a spike is meant to do damage you know. So if you don't nerf Savage Shot for spiking, then what do you nerf it for? Random interrupt spam? That's a worthless strategy that only bad monks fall for, ever. So what reason is there?
- Your Conviction is a nerf to a bad skill. There's nothing more to say about it.
- Conjures and Attunements are semi-good because they can be easily stripped, meaning they actually become active. Healing Breeze is a horrible skill outside of old-skool flaggers and even on that there are better options (like, you know, unstrippable Ritualist ones). Healer's Boon is just a really bleh skill. Pure power, turning monks into red-barrers. That's pretty bad. Life, Restoration and Recuperation are not passive. They have a 3 second cast time, which automatically makes them a target for interrupts and they remain as spirits which you can kill. Apply Poison and Read the Wind are Preparations with a fairly low recharge/duration, meaning they are decently active. Game mechanics are obviously passive, how would the game function if they weren't? It would be like trying to play Guild Wars in real life which is just lolfail. Also notice how all these effects you mentioned only affect party members, doesn't that give you a slight hint why passive Hexes won't work out? Dark Morphon 13:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Eles and Fire is popular in HA becuase of NEARBY and AREA range effects. If adjacent was as awesome ppl would run RoJ out the butt.
- What is meta is irrelavent. Meta is what's IN, its like fashion. Balanced teams are balanced regardless of what is in. Meaning just because everyone decides to run teams heavy on enchantments and gimped in utility doesn't make other teams any less viable.
- Unblockability is unpredectible in power. The range of effectiveness for magebane is huge. The fact that it can break through blocks during a dire WoH cast is something that is difficult to measure but is obviously powerful.
- The reason to nerf the two ranger interrupts is to punish spammability. Bad use results in the punishment, but good use results in no effect. I'm not dealing with a specific interrupt strategy, but spamming of interrupts for the ranger as a whole.
- Bash on my view of conviction all you like. It doesn't change the fact that a powerful passive skill gets changed to a good active skill.
- Conjures and Attunements are semi-good because they can be easily stripped, meaning they actually become active. What?! No I'm sorry try again.
- HB is a bad skill because it is pure power and turns monks into red-barers? I wonder why you consider WoH a good skill and it does the same thing, but in an active manner.
- Life, Restoration and Recuperation are not Passive. Once again, What?! Try again. They have a 3 second cast time, which automatically makes them a target for interrupts and they remain as spirits which you can kill. That is true, but has no impact on their passive nature.
- Everything else written just adds to my point that passive play is fine as long as it's not dominating. Which is why, yes, passive hexes can be alright as long as they are not dominating. Besides they are like preperations with fairly short recharge/duration so they are decently active.~>Sins WDB 05:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
(Reset indent) Meteor is a popular skill in those Fire Magic bars, yet it has adjacent range. Wonder why? Because it gives a knockdown. So if you give Dervishes an AoE knockdown (like Meteor) with 8 recharge (very much unlike Meteor) and 3 second duration, how is that not going to be overpowered? If you look closely, you'll see that in HA everyone is close to each other (small maps blahblah). Adjacent range is therefore likely to trigger. Actually, running something that's not meta will gimp you. In an Enchantment-heavy meta, people will run big damage and a lot of anti-hex/condition skills (Smiters). If you run a balanced team (which equally takes those factors) you will be overran by those teams. Magebane Shot is hard to calculate, but keep in mind it takes an elite skill, which means you will be worse at utility such as snares or damage such as Burning Arrow. That's a trade-off. Your new Conviction gives you a lot of armor if not attacking for one third of the time. But if you want to be effective as a frontliner, you're supposed to be attacking. It could at best function as an anti-spike skill. HB is bad because it turns your entire bar into raw power/redbarring. Word of Healing is only one powerful skill which you can ocassionaly use. I'm sorry, I was putting it wrong with Preparations. They are in themselves passive, but the effect you get makes them either active or passive. Look at Apply Poison. It gives you Poison on attacks. But to effectively use this condition, you have to switch targets. Thus, the skill makes you play actively and for that reason the skill isn't very passive. Read the Wind was used because it greatly increased your damage output/turret pewpewness. It's not a fine skill because its effect is really passive and requires no thought in its usage. Now, let's look at Hexes. You GIVE THE CHOICE TO YOUR OPPONENT. See the big difference between self-applied skills and those that affect your opponents? They are usually a lot less active because they affect your opponent. They have to think, not you. And that's why passive Hexes can never be fine. Now let's get back to Attunements, Conjures and Spirits. Attunements make your skills cheaper, which increases the frequency of the usage of them. If the frequency of those skill increases, you can play more actively and can afford it to cancel skills more often. Thus, they indirectly make you play more active and are fine. Conjures are also bad, forgive me for my mistakement. I have never seen a truly balanced team with Conjures, anyway. They mindlessly increase your damage output. ConcerningSpirits, Restoration is obviously a sucky skill (delayed resurrection = lol). Recuperation is a skill which affects a field rather than persons. Because of its recharge you will likely put it only at one place at one time. You have to carefully consider where this spirit will be of most use to your party. It's still pretty passive, yes. I would say decreasing the recharge/duration would be a good thing for this skill. That goes for most spirits, by the way. Life is a skill I will talk about in my next post since I gotta go in a few minutes. Once again, sorry for not being entirely clear and on the nail with some of those passive skills. Dark Morphon 08:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Meteor is an unconditional skill, it is also ranged. Farmer's Scythe would be melee and has a low frequency conditional. You are comparing apples and oranges, both are fruits but are different. If your only argument for hating the change is that HA maps suck that's not a very effective one. If anything, changes like this will force people to play position better in HA.
- Actually, running something that's not meta will gimp you. No, that's not correct. Not running the meta means you need to be better at the game to accomplish the the same or better results as a meta team. It doesn't mean meta is better, just easier.
- Magebane isn't the best choice for GvG which is the type of skills you are offering. It's use is better suited in HA or 4 man, which should see balance sometimes and is my intention with this particular adjustment. I'm sure your are familiar with rangers that have magebane, savage, and d-shot. (HA map changes would be nice, an end to RA syncing would be nice, and nerfs to Hexgay would be nice as those are some of the MAJOR issues).
- WoH + HB are the same concept regardless of how you feel about their use.
- Your view on Apply Poison is accurate, but target swapping and attacking isn't very different from spreading degen from curses (ie suffering, lc, and faintheartedness all of which are similar to apply poison in that you must swap between targets for maximum effect). The problem with passive hexes has been the combination of powerful effects and the stacking of those effects. You are also correct about many hexes requiring your target to play more skillfully as opposed to you yourself doing so. I think there are too many of those or that they are too powerful, diversion is one of those that I feel this way about (but that's beyond the point). ::Attunements make it easier to play more active, that I agree with. A skill like Depravity or Shame limits how active someone can be and does force action on the target. It's all fine imo that skill concepts like that exist, BUT as many have pointed out, including us, they are too powerful for their mindlessness. Now you may disagree with me that those types of concepts shouldn't exist, but what can't be disputed is their power can be limited to make them balanced. I understand you don't like conjure, but you are aware of the many counters to melee so it may be a mindless skill but the mechanic it supports requires skillful play to be effective.
- I meant Recovery when I mentioned Restoration, because yes Restoration is lol. I've got no quarrel with your view on spirits, what you've mentioned is accurate that is how you play them. Life is a skill that will have to be adjusted to the amount of pressure teams can applied. If the power of passive skills under curses and domination gets nerfed life won't need to give 200-1000 health to a team of 8 and can be lessened accordingly. It is a well thought out mechanic though, given that it's power can be small or large and the health may not come at an optimal time. It may put the worry to the other team, but it doesn't hinder their actions at least.~>Sins WDB 18:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
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