Feedback talk:User/Kirbman/Skills/explanations

If you'd like to make suggestions please add them to a new section of this page. Please let me know if you particularly like any of my suggestions. -- Kirbman

First header (added by Kirbman)

I laughed at how overpowered Shroud of Silence is :D. Anvi God _zzz... 00:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

No to the increase on Pensive Spirit recharge - monks have enough of a hard time fending off shittons of dervishes anyway.

Increase discord recharge to 6 would be enough to close that crap team build off for good.

Death nova recharge in pvp could be increased to 10 but no-self target would be shitty since N/A balances itself by dying - roj is more OP.

Contemplation of purity is barely ever used - leave at .25 sec.

Make Reclaim Essence give energy gain per spirit destroyed.

Keep EoE cast greater than 1 sec, maybe 3 - its very useful in all spike builds in speedclears.

Mark of protection, I'd decrease recharge to 30, duration to 5, 1/4 sec cast and keep the disable length as 5 sec - and add "if you saved target ally from death gain 7 energy" but 45 sec pvp recharge. --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 01:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh and...

Asuran Scan: Fixed a bug that caused both caster and target to be unable to miss against any target. The fact that shit dies so fast doesn't make single-target unblockable that appealing. Fixing that bug may put the nail in the coffin for it in my opinion. It's much more appealing if it was like... Asuran Scan: 5e 0s recharge 5s recharge: Skill. Your attacks cannot miss. (insert reasonable duration) something like that.

Shroud of Silence That skill would be the god of shutdown. It's like Disrupting Accuracy coupled with Blackout on steroids.

Second Wind The current functionality sucks so badly you would need a lot of additional functionality added onto to make it even worth using. It would be better just to revamp the whole skill. What you seem you to try to do is only adjust a few numbers and keep the changes to the minimum. Some skills are too hard to be balanced like that.

Same issue with Marksman Wager. It doesn't matter honestly if the duration was 0....100000...1000000000 seconds. Rangers don't have that sort of energy issue and tweaking numbers won't work well there without an additional/change in functionality.

Withdraw Hex This buff will make it become "not used at all" to "not used at all". The energy was only a minor issue, the cooldown is the biggest one. Besides, it likes to stay in the closet and win the 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and future "Most Useless Skill" award.

jajajaja skip a few section til I'm at Resurrection.

Resurrect: energy wasn't the issue as much as the cast time coupled with the horrendous health and energy returns (25% health and 0 energy, which is the worst)

Lol if you think Discord is good. Before nerfing Discord, let's nerf the true overpowered skills like this bitch and this god. Discord is an overrated build used in 7-hero builds because people don't know what else to put in them.

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So tldr; you have good ideas, but you'll need more than to tweak a few numbers. Anvi God _zzz... 01:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

@Anvil God The great thing about number tweaks is that they don't require any additional programming (adding effects, programming AI to use it right, making sure NPC builds still make sense) so they don't take a lot of time from the few devs left on gw1. These suggestions are primarily about balancing anyway, not proposing new ideas of what skills should do.

• For Resurrect: Its supposed to be the minimal res, and it should have a minimal energy cost to reflect that, not be raised to more powerful res skills.
• For Marksman's Wager: Not all rangers have energy problems but many do, even with good use of expertise. I help people with builds fairly often and the most common problem I see on rangers is energy management.
• For Withdraw Hex: At 15-16 divine favor the recharge really isn't that bad (+4 or 5 seconds per hex), especially when you consider that most skills that only remove 1 hex have to recharge for 8-12 seconds per hex.
• For Shroud of Silence: It would be like an elite version of Disrupting Accuracy, but almost never maintainable (especially against foes with hex removal), and only affecting spells rather than all skills and attacks. If anything it might need a buff to also affect chants to make it worth its elite status (and make more sense for the name). Try also comparing it to Dwarven Battle Stance.
• For Panic: I believe that the best way to balance it is to tell NPC AIs to spread out if they get hexed with it.
• For Ether Renewal: You're right, it could use a nerf. I'll add a suggestion to the list limiting the number of enchantments that can count towards the health and energy gain.

@Chieftain Alex

• Contemplation of Purity is rarely used in PvE, but it has become very popular in PvP. Even a monk with only Vigorous Spirit and Guardian on them will gain over 100 health and lose up to 2 hexes and 2 conditions for an almost instant cast, with a recharge faster than most other hex removals. Combined with almost any enchantment in earth prayers for added defense and/or condition dealing and you've got an almost instant cure-all.
• For Discord: The intention isn't to close it off for good, its to make it less effective so that players actually consider running more variety or even making their own builds.
• For Death Nova: Contagion bombers spike harder and faster than RoJ, and many bots use that build. If they have to rely on someone else for the Death Nova, it'll be much harder to get bots to do it. Also when ANet made LDoA possible without death leveling they said it was because that was counter intuitive, this follows that same idea. Also dying doesn't balance it out in places like JQ where the only penalty for dying is being out for a few seconds.
• For Pensive Guardian: Adding 1 second to the recharge won't kill it by any means, it will still be easily maintainable.
• For Reclaim Essence: That's a good idea, I'll look into integrating something like that.
• Edge of Extinction is normally set up beforehand anyway, cutting the cast time won't make anything easier in said speed clears, just a couple seconds faster. The same goes for Famine.
• For Mark of Protection: That's an interesting thought, but its impossible to tell if the skill actually saved that ally from death unless they would have died on the next hit. I think something like "You gain 1...3...4 energy if target ally is below 25% health" might work well, but I'll stand by my current suggestion on this one.

-- Kirbman 23:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I added Ether Renewal and Ether Renewal (PvP), and made the recharge time dependent on the number of spirits destroyed for the Reclaim Essence suggestion. -- Kirbman 00:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

How about linking SY to strength? --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 00:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

That could be a good idea, but I think the skill should remain usable by other professions. I think that my suggestion is the way to go with it for now, but if it proves to need further revision, having a strength based bonus might be a good way to do that. -- Kirbman 03:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Link it to tactics. Now you force players to spec into a useless line! Anvi God _zzz... 04:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

@Shroud of Silence. Disrupting Accuracy is bad not only because it's on a bow but because any decent caster can cast in between attacks. Shroud of Silence allows for absolute shutdown. There is no such thing as casting in between attacks when your spells are disabled. ER nerf wouldn't really do anything since 4 enchants is still enough to spam infuse and all enchantments at will. You will just need to be less liberating with Prot Bond (just more popularity to ER Prot Hero kind of builds) For Discord, that makes no sense. Let the bad players run bad skills. If everyone mainbarred Mending and went /Mo, should you nerf Mending to promote variety? I'm still not following Pensive Guardian. Just because adding 1 second recharge won't kill it, doesn't mean you should. That's the kind of "random skill changes of the month" A-Net does that makes you wonder whether they're on drugs. To nerf it so you can cater to Dervish trains even more is just silly. Also for Withdraw Hexes, why are you comparing an elite hex removals to non-elite hex removals? If you're having trouble justifying why it's almost as good as non-elite hex removal, that means its bad. Compare it to Peace and Harmony. The only advantage Withdraw has over PnH is that if you remove 1 hex at 15 spec, it recharges 2 seconds faster and that it isn't affected by Well of Profane, while PnH has lower energy, removes conditions, and can remove hex stacks faster and in more times, and a nice inherent enchantment bonus of lower hex/condi. Anvi God _zzz... 04:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I feel like you should actually look up what skills do before telling other people who know what they do that they're wrong. So lets try this again...

• Disrupting Accuracy costs only 5 energy, interrupts everything (not just spells, but also signets, glyphs, attack skills, attacks, chants, echoes, forms, binding rituals, nature rituals, preparations, traps, touches, and skills), is easily maintainable, is not elite, affects your attacks against any target, and can't be removed. My proposal for Shroud of Silence is only maintainable with Deadly Paradox AND Glyph of Swiftness (or consumables in PvE) costing a total of 30 energy, and can be removed by any foes with hex removal in their party. It also only affects your attacks against the single target that it is cast on. And its an elite skill, which means it can't be combined with Quick Shot, Punishing Shot, Expert's Dexterity, or Magebane Shot. Shroud of Silence's advantages would be 1 second disables rather than interrupts, the ability to use it with any weapon, and the 1 second cast time rather than 2 seconds.
• The reason everyone runs certain skills is because they are overpowered. Those skills should be changed because they are overpowered, not because everyone runs them. Most of the skills I proposed nerfs to are skills that I use all the time because they are so good.
• Discord is not a bad skill. Just because bad players use a skill doesn't make it a bad skill; in this case it indicates that it is an easily abused skill. It needs to be balanced because players can put it on the bars of 7 different heroes and just watch those heroes go through the game for them. If being able to do most things in PvE doesn't require actually playing, it should at least require enough thought to decide what type of heroes to bring. See the previous bullet.
• Pensive Guardian isn't in drastic need of any change, it just could be better balanced with a minor change. This change would be on par with the 1 second recharge increase on Patient Spirit or making Warrior's Endurance a skill rather than a stance like Warrior's Endurance (PvP).
• I'm comparing Withdraw Hexes to all other hex removals. You seem to be overlooking the fact that it removes all hexes from target and all adjacent allies. No other standard hex removal affects more than one ally, and only Purge Signet and Convert Hexes remove all hexes. Some of the other elite hex removals are faster (like Blessed Light), but overall most (including Peace and Harmony, which you mentioned) fall in that 8-12 second range. And 4-5 seconds is less than 8-12 seconds, there's no trouble justifying that.

-- Kirbman 07:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

It might please you to know that I removed my suggestion for Pensive Guardian and I'll be making changes to my suggestions for Shroud of Silence, Withdraw Hexes, and Discord among others. -- Kirbman 18:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Here it is simple then

Every single skill you've suggested, is either taking a step backwards from what it is, or the change is so minute that it does not change its brokeness. The only 2 changes you came close with were fragility and save yourselves. The rest just seem like: "Oh there's a problem, I'll change it by randomly adding on 1second recharge, that'll do it!" Istead of randomly coming up with new values, why not see if you can think of what will actually improve the skill. An easy example: Withdraw Hexes, nice you realised it was unused, but while yes the energy usage does contribute, it's the recharge which people don't use it for. So changing it to 10e and increases the recharge by 10...5...2s, or something to that effect, would make more sense. You can usually see the problems, you just have no clue how to fix them. This is why I was saying they were so terrible. --Silven 01:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that any skill change that doesn't fundamentally change how the skill works is a terrible change? I want to note that these suggestions are balance changes (as stated not very clearly at the top), I tried to avoid fundamental changes unless I felt they were really warranted. -- Kirbman 01:50, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Any skill change which don't address why it is broken is a terrible skill change.--Silven 01:54, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Most of the skills I listed aren't broken, just unbalanced, which is why I've suggested balance changes for them rather than fundamental changes. Others, such as Second Wind and Fingers of Chaos need fundamental changes. -- Kirbman 02:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to let you know that I made a few changes but I haven't gotten around to our list yet. I will when I have time. -- Kirbman 02:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I added most of them, along with some suggestions from Relyk and a couple new ones. I didn't change Decapitate yet because I'm still not sure of it. I'll add the monk changes soon. -- Kirbman 01:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Few notes

I like most of the changes in general, most aren't drastic enough to persuade players to use them; suggested changes should have more impact for balancing. I decided I'll just comment on some skills that stand out for me:

• Shadow Fang could be reduced to 35 seconds. You can add a 1 second recharge to attack skills for Warriors.
• "Save Yourselves!" can be left at 100 or 80 ar. Instead add a 5-6 second recharge instead. I agree on the increased duration to go along with it. The skill serves as a panic button when your party is under pressure rather than a skill to depend on for defense.
• Discord - You need to give it a recharge of 6 seconds or more if you don't want people basing builds around it.
• Death Nova can increase recharge to 3 seconds, 1 second isn't enough with the delay heroes have sometimes. It also allows the necro to regen a little more energy.
• Heart of Fury, there's no reason to have a recharge in PvE, you'd take any advantage against using Drunken Master. Rather you can lower the duration, that will be a significant drain on adrenaline.
• Fingers of Chaos change is rather pointless because spirits negate any advantage it gives. It only affects pug teams, which isn't that fair.

Cheers.--Relyk 04:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Shadow Fang - I previously had it at 35 seconds but changed it to 40 so that the deep wound duration would not be more than half of the recharge at 15 Deadly Arts. Since you mentioned it, I compared it to Phantom Pain and Augury of Death and I think you have a point that it can afford an even shorter recharge. I'll change my suggestion back to 35, but I don't see any reason to add a 1 second recharge to warrior attack skills.
• "Save Yourselves!" - The use of this skill now is far from that of a "panic button" since most of it's use is by paragons who maintain it, especially imbagons. The added recharge would mostly just make it non-maintainable for players with low faction titles, which doesn't address either problem. As states on the skill page "+100 armor reduces damage by 82.3%" which is a ridiculous amount for something maintainable and party-wide (minus self).
• Discord - A few people have stated that adding 1 second to the recharge isn't enough (despite that making it 150% of its current recharge). I discussed this with Silven and I think we found a better (and surprisingly simple) solution, which I'll be adding soon.
• Death Nova - You're right, with a 3/4 sec aftercast adding a 1 sec recharge won't really do much, and doesn't adequately balance out the shortened cast time. I'm thinking 2 seconds rather than 3 though so it doesn't take too long to put it on multiple targets. As for energy, it never seems to be a problem for decent minion masters, even heroes.
• Heart of Fury - The reason for the recharge is to prevent this skill from being maintained at minimal Mysticism. It can currently be maintained with only 3 Mysticism with daggers, a sword, an axe, or a scythe hitting multiple targets. It's advantage over Drunken Master is that it gives more IAS than DM without alcohol and more importantly, its not a PvE-only skill. Please see ArenaNet's Developer Notes from the update that created the PvP version.
• Fingers of Chaos - You have a good point that this skill would have minimal impact against spirit spammers. What do you think about adding "and cause 3 seconds of burning to adjacent foes when striking summoned creatures"? Or maybe deal holy damage to adjacent foes like Banishing Strike did prior to February 18, 2011? I don't understand why you think my current suggestion would only affect pug teams though.

Thanks for your input. -- Kirbman 18:02, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Amity: is a very powerful melee shutdown in HA and GvG, maybe too powerful but usefull vs. 3+ Melee teams. (hate these)
• Mark of Protection: sounds interesting too, but maybe OP, because you can't really counter it
• Mantra of Recall: sounds nice too yep, I like it... i would also change it to a stance like all other mantras.
• Swirling Aura: is the only counter in GvG against D-Shot or Magebane stuff. I would reduce duration to 15-17, recharge to 30

--Kali Shin Shivara 03:53, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Amity - Yes this would be very powerful against teams that rely heavily on melee, but so is the current version. On the other hand, it would be useless against any team that relies entirely on casters. Take into consideration that this would take up the elite skill slot on one of the monks, and try comparing to Shared Burden and Siphon Strength. The predictability of enemies in PvE would actually make this skill more powerful there.
• Mark of Protection - I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to counter it. It's an enchantment, so any enchantment removal would counter it. Also, the healing would only trigger when a hex or condition is applied, so the opponents of the skill user would have to cause the healing in all cases aside from when the target uses a spell that self-inflicts conditions.
• Mantra of Recall - Thanks. I considered suggesting that change, but changing it to a stance would make it too easy to end to receive the energy gain, which is probably why it is an enchantment now.
• Swirling Aura - I like your suggestion but I want to make sure it doesn't become a weaker version of Sliver Armor. I'll consider revising it next time I update my suggestions. I disagree about it being the only counter to ranger interrupts in GvG though. There are many other blocking skills such as Guardian, Distortion, and various warrior stances, and there are also anti-interrupts such as Song of Concentration and Pious Concentration.

Thanks for your feedback Kali, I hope to hear from you again soon. If you want to have a more in-depth conversation about it let me know and we can chat on vent or in game. -- Kirbman 06:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)