Talk:Doublecast skill

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Source?[edit]

Can someone provide to me the source for this? Unless something is screwy for me alone, Game updates:December 2011, Feedback:Developer updates, Feedback:Skill update previews, [1], [2] show nothing on this, and the "quotation" doesn't link anywhere. Konig/talk 08:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

It was mistakenly "leaked", the update's planned for after the holidays, so says this. A repost of the update and Regina's response is on the 2nd page. ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 08:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I see. Guess I was too late to notice the leak when I got up this afternoon. Konig/talk 08:32, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
This is what might have gone up on the wiki, if something were actually released. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 09:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Presentation[edit]

moved to User:Falconeye/Sandbox/Doublecast skill

May I post a cleaner version on page, if not the version above? --Falconeye 21:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I've moved this to your user page, otherwise this talk page becomes difficult to use as a talk page.
I'm not sure what it is you want to do. If you look at pages like enchantment spell, they do not include an example of the {{skill infobox}}; there's no particular advantage to do something different here. If your concern is to sandbox the presentation of new skill types, the place to do that is in a sandbox, not on a talk page. (The proposals/options can be discussed here or at the sandbox's talk page, depending on the circumstances.) In other words, this is a talk page about presentation of the article on doublecast skills (and/or their mechanics and how they fit into the wiki); it's not about the infoxbox. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Ill play around with it on feedback page, then revisit. ^_^ --Falconeye 04:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Naming convention and type[edit]

In the game, these skills are still listed as enchantment skills, so arguably it's not a new type of skill but a subtype of an existing one. The official dev notes use two, lower case words, doublecast skill (not any of the other variations folks have suggested). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

What's in a subtype (rough analysis of the five skills)[edit]

Skills in the subtype have the following features in common:

  • They target an ally (presumably, they can target the caster, but seems like a waste).
  • They have an on-application benefit.
  • New range: 4 of the skills damage foes near both caster and target (exception: Energy Boon); one of the skills (DD) has 8 damage pulses (the other three have but one).

There's one DCS for each of the ele's attributes and each is roughly emblematic of its line, e.g. Double Dragon sets foes on fire while Gust KDs them and Energy Boon boosts health and energy. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I removed Empathic Removal as a comparison skill worthy of its own section: it's not the only skill that benefits target/caster, it has little in common with the four damage-dealing skills, and (unlike DCSs) it's not an enchantment. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
They can target self, and it triggers both the damage packets. At least with MoI. Manifold User Manifold Neptune.jpg 04:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Soz, yeah, the 2x damage would be useful; it's the loss of the potential other benefits. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Another apology: some of the above has been misinterpreted:
  1. by new range, I only meant that these skills have an effective area of effect different from existing skills: in all cases, the local AoE is nearby (an existing range); the only thing new is that there are two nearby AoEs instead of 1.
  2. by writing the original post, I meant to offer a starting place to discuss what might be useful for the article (if I thought it belonged as written...I would have added it to the article instead of offering it for discussion).
My apologies for any confusion I might have caused. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 07:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) https://forum.guildwars.com/forum/forums/gamebugs/Doublecast-Skills/page/1 In this link, staff Zack Nickerson explains how the AI and targetting of doublecast skills work. Someone might want to update the page (I'm not good at those things) with that information in mind. 217.129.113.149 20:36, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

What he said was that heroes wait to use certain skills at maximum efficiency. In the case of Double Dragon, they might not use the skill unless both fire rings cause damage (in contrast, a human player might use DD to allow both caster/ally to inflict burning for a bit).
It might be worth a note, but it's not really any different from how heroes behave generally: like some players, they follow certain optimization rules. But (unlike most players) they have trouble allowing for exceptions. That's parallel to AI behavior for GOLE (rarely use 5e skills while active), prot spirits (won't summon them unless within range of foes, even if allies would be prot'd), or Psychic Instability (rarely use unless several foes would be KD'd). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
It's still worth noting that targetting enemies with DC skills will automatically target the nearest ally to the target foe. 217.129.113.149 21:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
A note like that might be better placed on the skill articles (maybe both). Did you try it for Energy Boon? (That skill has no impact on foes, so it might auto-select differently.) Also, how did you test that it's not following the equivalent of tab-order (that's set after selecting "nearest target" — gw.exe cycles through the remaining targets based on proximity at the time of the earliest selection...and often, that's the same as nearest to X). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Based on questions being asked in-game, on this wiki, and elsewhere, it seems prudent to add a note to the specific skills. I've used, "As with any doublecast skill, NPCs restrict their use of this skill to optimal conditions; specifically, the target and caster must be near foes that will take the initial burst of [type] damage."Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Targeting[edit]

If you cast one of these (assuming they all work; it works with Gust), the skill will automatically target the nearest ally to that foe. — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 2:29, 7 Jan 2012 (UTC)

Additions[edit]

The developer update notes never mention that the skill type is unique to the elementalist profession. Other skills could easily meet the definition, as mentioned on the page, such as Empathic Removal. Since there's no mechanic that makes a type of skill a doublecast skill, I suggest we add other skills that meet the definition to the list. –Jette 01:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

At the moment, it's unique to the elementalist (I'll assume good faith that you know something that you aren't allowed to share if you update the article, though). I don't think Empathic Removal meets the definition: it's not an enchantment (and thus only has the double on-application benefit). Also ANet has called out the DCS as a new type (although it seems they don't have as much in common with each other as do skills in most other subtypes). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Miror of Ice is not an enchantment. — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 21:07, 8 Jan 2012 (UTC)
While otther skill sub-types (i.e. Teardown) do have skills very similar mechanically or by application, but are not official; so it is instead noted. Perhaps if "boring/outdated" skills were updated using the existing 5 as a baseline, then it might become an official type. --Falconeye 02:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Teardown is not a skill sub-type; it is a term that ANet offered to describe any skill (from any subtype) that removes a DV enchantment and has an on-removal effect; most are attacks or scythe attacks, but there are also signets, spells, and even stances. ANet used the term type of skill as a synonym for kind of skill, rather than a type of skill mentioned in the first phrase of a description, e.g. enchantment or hex.
What we know about DCS so far is that all the skills are elementalist enchantments that enchant caster and target and have an on-application effect. 4 deal PBAoE damage, but only 3 of those deal damage twice if the caster targets themselves and only one deals damage-over-time.
Finally, Doublecast skill and Teardown are official terms: they were presented by ANet in officially released official released notes. I don't what else you could ask of ANet in terms of making them more official than they already are. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Understood, and on that note: isn't Feeder an official word coined by Anet? I remember seeing that term in the developer notes; which prompted me to create the article. --Falconeye 03:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, look at this. What do Energy Boon and Mirror of Ice have in common? The only similarity is that they have the same effect on target and on self, as does Empathic Removal. I think it qualifies, according to those criteria. — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 21:29, 8 Jan 2012 (UTC)

Doublecasts have lasting effects (Enchantment, Hex) with a certain duration. Empathic Removal has an instant effect. Also, Doublecasts CAN self target, while empathic removal can't. The effects may not be the exactly the same when self-targeting, though. MithUser MithranArkanere Star.pngTalk 00:01, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Doublecast: Can target yourself, ally and foe, Empathic Removal can only target an other ally and affects the target and the ally. There are some major differences and the biggest being that it is a spell that can target both foe and ally wich no other type of spell can do. The effects however is something can strikes me as odd since there does not seem to be a set criteria that can define them as doublecast. Mirror of Ice has an effect only affecting foes and Energy Boon only affects allies, affecting both allies and foes alike is something that does not follow the criteria since not all doublecast spells do that. Ride the Lightning can also target both allies and foes but differs in that it has no active benefit to the caster, it deals damage to a target instead of foes in range of the nearest allies when targetting a foe unlike doublecast. My conclusion what properly identifies a doublecast is this; can target an ally, yourself and a foe, however when targetting a foe it will still automaticly target an ally. The effects and spell types follow the nature of the attribute they are in instead of the nature of the spell type. Da Mystic Reaper 12:27, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

Table view[edit]

Criterion Doublecast skill Empathic removal Notes
Identically affects caster/target Yes Yes
Instant effect Yes Yes Double Dragon apparently delivers first packet after 1s.
Extended/lasting effect Yes No Four DCS are enchantments; one is a hex (with benefits to caster/ally)
Self-target Yes No Neither Double Dragon nor Energy Boon deliver double-impact for self-targeting (perhaps due to being an enchantment-based effect.)
Damage Yes No Four of five DCSs.

I take this as either (1) DCS is a poorly defined term (that should be applied to any skill that identically affects caster and an ally) or (2) it's an extremely specific term, but ANet is still trying to understand what they want to do with the associated game mechanics. If the notes at Double Dragon are correct (and it does damage only due to the enchantment), then it has no immediate impact, leaving only three criteria in common with all Doublecast Skills: able to target self (or other ally) and an extended/identical effect on both caster and target. (Empathic Removal doesn't qualify as self-targetable or as having an extended effect.)

Rather than arguing discussing amongst ourselves, perhaps it would be easier to ask Gee or Stumme whether they meant for the term to be relevant to only the newly updated five skills or whether they considered that it would apply to some existing skills, too. (Also: did they really mean for the term to be so vague?) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Criterion Double Dragon Stone Sheath Gust Mirror of Ice Energy Boon Empathic removal Notes
Identically affects caster/target Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Instant effect No Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
AoE effect Yes Yes Yes Yes No No
Extended/lasting effect Yes, on allies Yes, on allies Yes, on allies Yes, on foes Yes, on allies No Four DCS are enchantments; one is a hex (with no benefits to caster/ally); Empathic Removal has the lasting impact of removing a lasting effect.
Self-target No Yes Yes Yes No No Neither Double Dragon nor Energy Boon deliver double-impact for self-targeting (perhaps due to being an enchantment-based effect.)
Damage Yes Yes Yes Yes No No Four of five DCSs.
Eh, it gets blurry. — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 23:20, 13 Jan 2012 (UTC)
Double dragon's burning on skill activation works right after you get it. It taking a second to deal the first hit doesn't mean it waits a second to activate. MithUser MithranArkanere Star.pngTalk 03:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Everything else does something else on application; Double Dragon's only "immediate" effect is applying the enchantment, which is covered under "lasting effect". — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 5:23, 14 Jan 2012 (UTC)
We're spiraling away from the original point: do we believe that ANet meant what they wrote, "[a] doublecast skill is a new type of spell that casts on you as well as your target. By utilizing proper positioning, skilled players can significantly increase the power level of these skills as well as the area that they cover.". (Emphasis is mine.)
ANet says it's a new type of skill and that position matters (to increase power and/or area of affect); this easily fits four of the DCSs (and less easily the fifth) but not empathic removal. (To be fair, ANet's pretty vague about the characteristics of DCS and worse, these five skills don't seem to have that much in common compared to skills in other pseudo-skill-types.)
Another possibility is this term is meant to be imprecise and relatively meaningless (in which case: let's add Signet of Synergy and ER to the list). Or, perhaps ANet changed their mind after they wrote the text, which ended up with an Energy Boon that's an anomalous DCS.
Again, it appears that we don't have enough data to resolve this debate on our own. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I assume they meant "type" as in "style of functionality" and not an actual subtype like Flash enchantments or weapon spells are. But, hey, their feedback pages are there for you to ask, and patiently wait for a response. MithUser MithranArkanere Star.pngTalk 22:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd rather we wait until more doublecast skills are introduced to declare that Empathic Removal is/isn't one. The note is sufficient, and if one of the anet people mentions it on the test forums, I'll pester them into letting me clarify it on here. For those interested, there's absolutely no reason to suspect that doublecast is a new type as in new mechanic. It's a new style, but from my own investigation, it looks like it's just spell that happens to hit two people. The auto-targeting mechanism is new, or at least recycled, as you can tell when you have an invalid target selected. I believe it's derived from the targeting routine for Putrid Explosion (it blows up the corpse nearest your target, while doublecasts select the ally nearest your target) but of course I can't be sure. –Jette 23:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the targetting system is similar to that used by Signet of Ghostly Might (PvP) (see the notes for this skill). --Combatter 23:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

VoS[edit]

I targeted an enemy derv running VoS and got the obvious spell block effect. But when i targeted the same foe at pointblank range i didn't get blocked and instead auto casted on myself.. can anyone confirm this? 76.118.156.169 17:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Spirits[edit]

Since these can use indirect targeting, can they be used to enchant spirits? I wouldn't be surprised. — Raine Valen User Raine R.gif 18:04, 26 Jan 2012 (UTC)

No. Spirits are immune to healing (excepting for skills that specifically heal spirits), hexes, enchantments and all conditions except burning. So you can't target them, and they don't get auto-targeted. MithUser MithranArkanere Star.pngTalk 18:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)