Talk:Masochism

Feedback

Love the name of this skill...^^ (Teo / talk) 22:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I love the effect, too. Going to fill up that energy management on the Dark Aura bomber, for sure!

Gogo BiP --76.2.226.20 00:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you're right... this+dark aura bomber=win. heh heh -Rakeman 03:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of Dark aura bomber as soon as I saw the skill too, because I call myself one of the founding persons of the most efficent dark aura builds. I also played them quite a bit. I've always found the dark aura bomber bar is very tight for slots though. I guess in PvE you can put this instead of res sig and/or consume corpse, since there's likely minion masters and other ressers in PvE. This skill also makes Mystic regeneration more viable, since it's high energy cost. The problem though, is that this is Soul Reaping attribute linked, and Something like mystic regeneration is also another attribute. So Players who use this skill, and especially those who use this and mystic regen, are going to encounter problems with damage potential when you can't have your blood or death magic as high (some of the most effective I've played have been 16-15.)--24.78.139.142 04:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The name is kinda freaky. haha. Giangn626 16:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh my god this skill is da bomb! N/D Aura of the Lich sacrificer ftw! ----InfestedHydralisk 17:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Cultist's Fervor

If you combined this skill, you could cast most skills free. In fact, you'd gain up to 4 energy from casting spells that normally cost 5, and 10 point spells could be free or give you 1 energy. --Supertrek32 04:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Cultist's Fervor gives all the energy you possibly need for anything I've ever thought up. The problem then comes with dealing with the life sacrifice, which is very hard. As far as I remember, even at very high blood (16?) the sacrifice is like 17% health. There's really no useful synergy that this skill has with Cultist's, as far as I can tell.While you can deal good damage while cultists is up, it's almost impossible to stay alive unless someone else is healing you.----Xapti 05:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

How about with Vampiric Spirit? Of course this is way too specific, but it would help to counter the elite skill's drawback, at the same time VS helps with the damage done by the health sacrifice. Erasculio 05:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Cultist's Fervor and Vampiric Spirit are both elites, so unfortunately that doesn't work. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 14:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I meant with Vampiric Spirit instead of Cultist's Fervor, not both together. The main drawback of VS is the increased energy cost, and Masochism gives energy, so you would be almost removing the drawback of VS. Of course, I can't think of a way to make Vampiric Spirit useful, but...Erasculio 19:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Cultists could replace Aura of the Lich in a dark aura bomber for a more offensive build. Thing is, you'll loose tons of defense... the lifesteal wouldn't even cover the health you'd save from aura of the lich halving sacrifice damage and Dark Aura damage, let alone reduce all damage recieved by 50%, or heal you every 20 seconds or so.--Xapti 05:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

When i saw this skill all i could think of was vampiric spirit. AWESOME!Giangn626 14:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you even read whatr I said?--Xapti 19:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you understood what you wrote yourself...Giangn626 20:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

My question is: What spells are you going to use to trigger dark aura? All the touch-range skills are just that; skills. They won't trigger the energy reduction or sacrifice of Cultist's Fervor. Unless you plan on spamming Dark Pact and Blood of the Aggressor... Ruricu 16:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I already found a use for this skill. In GvG, I can imagine a 55 necro with Cultist Fervor working in the background spamming Heal Party and Extinguish for 5 energy and Order of Pain for Free. --Shadetz X 04:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

and i can imagine a shatter enchantmens for a free kill :) --YukoIshii 18:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. They'd have to run a far distance alone in order to strip enchantments. You can spam this behind walls and many strategic locations on the maps. Those spells affect the whole radar range.

Until some tool like me uses Pain of Disenchantment into Gaze of Contempt. :] --SoraMitsukai 23:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Use with Sadist's Signet

O.o --Heelz 06:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't understand this comment. Please elaborate? 203.217.0.53 06:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Put the 2 words together... not too hard if u think about it a bit (and are over 14 or so)--Midnight08 09:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Its bad pun anyway, especially when theese skills don't work together at all. (and i believe that more under 14 kinds will come up with this that over 14 ones anyway) Zweistein 09:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he meant "S&M".167.206.248.12 23:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Some other combos

Lets think of another one: Cultists Fervor + Masochism. all Spells are 7energy cheaper and sacrifice, you gain addtional 4 energy. heal party for 4 Energy, nice thing. Blood also has some expensive skills that could be spammed this way, giving you back the health you sacrificed.

Another interesting thing: Order of the Undead + Masocism, that means once again endless energy for MMs in Combat. Spamming very expensive selfhealingspells is possible thist way.

OoU is lose 2% not sac 2% - 71.241.102.100 00:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This one ist very usefull for some Builds i think. I think ill do some testing if i get it :-)

They'd better fix Toxic Chill's 0% sacrifice before GW:EN is released, if they haven't already. 23:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That was fixed a long time ago, so np there. --Lou-Saydus 18:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

So much potential....

Wow. Just wow. The number of different things this can be used for....

Blood is power: at 16 soul reap, BiP is now free. Same goes for blood renewal, which in turn means necroes can go back to 55 instead of 1hp in DoA.

Dark Aura builds: Seems obvious and yall have discussed this already

Cultist Fervor: Yes, cultist has high cost, but combined with this, you could essentially spam the living hell out of self heals such as heal area to make up for sacrifices. Matter of fact, heal area is now free with the 2 combined. --MikeThePsycho 01:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I still don't know about the cultist's thing you guys (or the vampiric spirit)... cultists + masochism+healing (such as heal party) means you need to spec into 3 attributes. This means blood magic and healing magic won't be very high... you'll be sacrificing like 18% health. You'd need to have less than liek 350 health to break even in heal-sacrifice, and the heal will cost 5 energy (not a big deal). At 350 health, you're way to vulnerable to being killed, and at higher healths, you'll need others to heal you (or heal yourself), making the cost of heal party go up to something like 10 energy. I'd say eles are still probably best at doing stuff like this since their emanagement is better. Not onyl that but most people just run LoD now.--Xapti 18:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Resto N/Rt!

Spirit Light + Masochism + No Spirits = Free Healing. Zweistein 19:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

17% Health loss every time isn't great

at 480 health the sac would be 82. If you heal YOURSELF with it you could easily break even at a mere 3 restoration. hardly that bad.. Invincible Rogue 19:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

480 health is begging for a spike.. 193.91.164.176 16:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Order of Apostasy

As it is, when OoA strips a monk enchantment it triggers a 'sacrifice,' even though the skill says you lose x% life. Order of Undeath has the same wording, and the life loss from minions triggering the skills doesn't act as a sacrifice. Because pulling monk enchants will return energy, Masochism has the power to push Order of Apostasy onto the metagame, which will bring back some of that old Grenth Train feeling. As Avatar of Grenth was nerfed fairly hard, I don't think that's where the game wants to be going- I would recommend that OoA be oh so subtly altered to reflect the text of the skill- ie, make the life loss from pulling an enchantment actually a life loss.

Looks like EoTN is going to churn out its fair share of abused skills... OoA is easily vulnerable to interruption or shutdown, however. This is still insane on dark aura bombers. 220.101.137.117 11:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't OoA be back in the metagame since the buff to Auspicious Incantation if this were true?--Skye Marin 20:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

That only lets you put up OoA maybe two more times every 20 seconds. This lets you put it up on recharge. It might be too fragile for GvG but it would fit nicely into spiritway. FoxBat 14:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

How's this?

Aura of the Lich

Masochism

Dark Aura

Mystic Regeneration

Conviction

Touch of Agony

Wallow's Bite

Optional

InfestedHydralisk 17:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Animate Bone Horror

Blood of the Master

Animate Shambling Horror

Sadist's Signet

Order of Undeath

Taste of Death

Masochism

Rotting Flesh

and other fun things :D! much pun intended. --Lou-Saydus 18:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

and now you need some healing to survive order of undeath :P ----InfestedHydralisk 18:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually Order of Undeath only triggers maschism on the initial skill activation, and not on minion attacks. You don't sacrifice your life on minion attacks, you just lose them---DK

Actually used a build similar to the first one once, it worked but wasn't really all that great. Ended up adding crippling sweep in order to help stop the big kiting problems, although I couldn't get round spending like half my time refreshing my enchantments.

Wish there was sacrifice reduction spell

I wish there was an non-elite enchantment spell that can reduce the amount sacrificed. I know Aura of Lich is out there, but I don't like the idea of losing half my life and an elite slot just to reduce sacrifices. Plus that skill is in the death slot, and most big time sacrifices are in blood. But I guess this skill is the next best thing. ----DK

Free Blood of the Aggressor

As if Blood wasn't strong enough...with this you spam Blood all day long while waiting for your nastier skills to recharge.

I don't really see blood as powerful at all, but yeah, this also allows for a near free dark pact.--Atlas Oranos 18:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Cause blood is so overpowered ¬¬" 92.21.55.29 17:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Translation Suggestions

To avoid some bad skill translations i'm opening a comment for new skills so everybody can post their translation suggestions in various languages, have fun :) --YukoIshii 00:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Italian: Masochismo --YukoIshii 00:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Post GW:EN Preview feedback

I like the skill a lot. it is more dependable than Sig of Lost Souls for steady energy return in sac builds. I had it on my Aura of the Lich bomber setup and it worked wonders. I was able to completely switch to +HP and +AL armor instead of a +energy armor and weapon set like normally. I never came close to running out of fuel. --arredondo 08:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

High Amounts of Damage?

Why is it that almost every player thinks that if a class other than elementalist deals extremely high damage against a target everyone is like it needs to be 'nerf' but when a fire elementalist does skills that does high amounts of damage no one cares, so are elementalist the only class in guild wars thatt is allowed to deal high amounts of damage? Seriously this dark aura bomber might be powerful but it still requires a monk to compensate for the health loss and easily removing the enchantments from the character ruins the build. The instruction manaul and everywhere else says that elementalist are known to deal high amounts of aoe damage and never does it say the highest amount of damage against a single target.Highway Man 22:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The manual also says Assassins assassinate single targets with daggers, when they can assassinate much better with scythes, and apply pressure with daggers through SA and Dark Apostasy72.141.203.119 05:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget to strike with a Hamstring attack to cripple your fleeing opponent, then rain fire down upon him as he slowly limps away. --71.229.204.25 05:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Go Hamstorm! Chiyu! 18:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

December 11 2008 update

Cultist's Fervor was changed with the December 11 2008 update, the sacrifice was replaced with "Bleeding for 10 seconds each time you cast a Necromancer spell." Is there any reason to keep the note about triggering twice? Oma 13:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

On that note, does it reapply or stack? Jonathan 13:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It is reapplied Oma 14:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Blood of the Master

This will only activate once on Blood of the Master, right? - Ara Ara 21:13, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

yes InfestedHydralisk 12:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. ~ A R A ~ 03:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

August 6 2009 update

Anyone else less than thrilled about the change? Masochism used to be the skill to go to for energy management for BiP, OotV, and certain blood spike builds. But this new version, it looks like only MM builds would use it (although it seems very good for them). But MM is already one of the strongest necromancer archetypes in PvE, why damage several different builds just to make one of the best even better? 76.127.240.5 22:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It still DOES help your energy management :D +2 per death, now. And your minions deal more pwnage. So, WHEE! ПALANA 00:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It also stacks well with Aura of the Lich. I tested it in Isle of the Nameless.--Dark Paladin X 01:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I won't deny that it's a nice MM skill. But it wasn't a MM skill to begin with, it was a blood support/bloodspike skill! If you don't change the BiP, OotV, or bloodspike builds that used the old version, going from the old version to the new trades 4 energy every time you cast a sac skill (BiP, OotV, Order of Pain, Blood Ritual, Dark Pact, Blood of the Aggressor, and Blood Renewal to name a few) to a measly 6 energy in a 15 second interval. On top of greatly reducing the energy flow that Masochism produced, this new version makes each of those skills sac an additional 3-5% of your health. MM builds using the new version might be fun, but MM was fun already and frankly didn't need another power boost. Especially not at the expense of blood support builds like BiP and OotV. -76.127.240.5 01:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What about using this as fuel for Dark Aura? It adds two to Death Magic, and all your skills now sacrifice health, so every skill will trigger Dark Aura. This has the potential to lead a lot of damage if you're not careful, but consider combining this skill with a "Toucher" build, you can start throwing on some nice AoE, armor-ignoring damage. I'd need to do some testing to see if it's economical, but there's good potential synergy there.70.59.83.70 14:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Discord says hi ;) Well, my non-hero version I run, that is. going to test it now..16DM and SR with Masochism on, cant be bad :D Harrier 14:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yep, as if Discordway wasn't already totally awesome for PvE, it just got better! Astralphoenix777 02:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

CONTAGION BOMBING IN PVE <3 FECK ME TRY This [OAdUQ0CbQvQrlceINRCuZMV0BbhA]

Screw Discord, look at the SAC

Clearly an attempt to prove that MMs are almost as good a spirit spammers these days :-P - Ander01 23:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Concise Description

Ermm... -Swift Aura 14:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Changed it, used awaken the blood to determine how the concise description should look like, but didnt check it ingame...~~VALAR~~

Changes to DM inherrent effect

I tested this ingame, it still breaks on even values. And given that, I can't see how it could have been readded in good faith. Backsword 13:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

16 Death magic + Masochism + Staff that gives 20% chance of bringing Death Magic up by 1 =

Level 30 Flesh Golem in PvP...

Minion Master's DREAM... - Stabby --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.193.61.209 (talk).

Yeah, let's hack gw so we can bring pve version's of skills in pvp. While we're at it, let's make shadow form maintainable in pvp, too. Ryuu - talk 10:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

PvP version nao...QQ no lvl 30 Fleshie.

Attribute stacking

By stacking AotL with the new Masochism (and with some heroes) I killed enough poor condition people in the isle of the nameless to create 11 minions at lvl 21. Shadow Runner 11:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

You ever cast fragility on one of those condition people? Loldamages. Ryuu - talk 11:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This mean I can remove that disputed tag or do I need more proof? Shadow Runner 11:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This means you should stop making logical fallacies in order to promote your fave skill on another page, or really, anywhere outside userspace.Backsword 12:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

My apologies. I was just trying to see if the note was true. Shadow Runner 12:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

What the hell is this dispute about anyway? -- Hong 12:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I Saw a disputed note so I decided to see if it was right. I thought it was so I posted a screenshot of it. Obviously I was wrong. 12:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

>Assumed you were the OP, which I shouldn't have. Backsword 12:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In any case, I think that dispute tag should go; it seems fairly conclusively proven that you can have 11 x lvl 21 minions. -- Hong 12:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Umn, look at my screenshot. Backsword 12:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

What, you mean you used bone fiends as opposed to bone horrors? That doesn't make any difference; the level progression for Animate Bone Horror and Animate Bone Fiend is the same. -- Hong 12:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

No, look for what's not there, compared to the first screenshot. Backsword 12:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

So, you got 11 lvl 21 minions with just Masochism and no AotL. How'd you get your death magic up to 19 without consumables or a +1/20% weapon/focus? Or does this mean that the progression tables for Death Magic and the assorted animate skills here on the wiki are wrong? --76.127.240.5 18:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

It is true, that with AOTL + Masochism, you can get 11 lvl 21 bone horrors. The current description is right.LunarEffect 19:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It is also true that you can do it without aura of the lich. It is also true that you can get 18 blood magic by using awaken the blood. Listing AotL as a related skill is enough for people to say "hey, these increase the same attribute." You don't need to tell them addition exists or rewrite what the description already says. ~Shard 20:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

while we're at it, we should just add all skills that give +(?) to attribute InfestedHydralisk 21:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The fact that they stack is valid info that should be in both articles. Backsword 18:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Lunar, that is not true. That is not what the claim states. I hope you just didn't read it. Backsword 18:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Pointing out that it wouldn't belong even if it was true: Articles are for documenting their subjects, not placing ads for your fave skill. Backsword 18:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Wait, so is the dispute over whether Masochism and Aura of the Lich stack to allow for 11 lvl 21 minions without consumables/+1 20% items, or over whether this should be mentioned on the Masochism page at all? -76.127.240.5 01:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

correct, imo its not needed. its not really something like o wow i can do 11 lvl 21 minions!!!. its just the way it is InfestedHydralisk 03:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this is some rather significant information and "The attributes stack with Aura of the Lich, making it possible to have level 21 minions and controlling up to 11 minions without the use of consumables." is correct, as both screenshots prove. There is nothing biased about it, there is nothing wrong about it, its a fact. There are many other skill pages with recommendations for skills that mix well, whats so bad about this one? I'd rather have a bit too much information on a page than not enough. For the leet gamers who know every skill off by heart, this information might not be important, but for someone who has just started playing and wants information about a skill and its uses, this is rather helpful. Why can't we just leave it like that and be done with this discussion? >< LunarEffect 05:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

We don't need a note on the page that states what the skill description already says. Notes are for unusual/unexpected behavior, combos, and things people normally wouldn't know about by reading the description alone. People can easily figure out their death magic + more death magic = bigger minions. ~Shard 05:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the note adds confusion rather than reducing it. As Backsword was pointing out above, it's not AotL that's giving you the 11 minions. — 130.58 (talk) 05:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, huge apology! I see whats up now. Masochism alone allows you to have 11 Minions. Ok, I'm sorry, I really didn't see that until now, thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking in terms of...11 Minions ∧ lvl 21 Minions, which is true in the combination of AOTL and Masochism. I do still think there should be a note saying "This skill allows you to have 11 Minions without the use of consumables" though. =) LunarEffect 15:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

yes, i believe the only thing that AotL gives you is lvl 21(r19) minions oppose to lvl 20(r18) w/o +1 staffs and/or consumables, while the # of the minnions is the same, 11(r18) 11(r19), so maybe the first part can be noted? we already have a note that has synergy because they add attribute points ( i.e. Double Dragon)--BobbyT 14:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Is the new edit ok? Can we remove the disputed tag? LunarEffect 23:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Sacrifice Trigger

Should it be noted that the sacrifice occurs after the spell is cast? (I'm not sure if this is whether or not before the spell takes effect, however.) For example, the old Cultist's Fervor bombs functioned because the sacrifice triggered as or before the spell was cast. Masochism does not trigger until a spell has successfully initiated casting. (I haven't tested whether or not it triggers on interrupted spells, but I'd hypothesize that it doesn't trigger.) 65.49.14.13 21:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

New PvE effect worthless

I would say that the effect would have been better applied to another skill. Masochism was not overpowered with its old wording, and without the old wording, there is no way to make benefit out of sacrificing health. I doubt I am the only one that would want the old Masochism back, and if MM's want the effect of the new wording so bad, perhaps it ought to be added to AotL, or another skill. I am tired of the changes being made to good skills. I think the idea of balancing the game by making good skills weaker is ridiculous. If the areas which require the "overpowered" builds of today are so hard that only a handful of builds can survive in them, maybe the area itself ought to be nerfed, OR why don't the programmers, in their infinite wisdom, and power, make the skills that are useless, actually DO something worth having in a build, if they want us to use new ways to defeat the foes. If weaker skills were made more powerful this game would stay interesting, but if the good skills are made weak, then there is no way to have a good character. The constant use of backwards logic is really annoying. Hey Anet, Hire me, I will make your old players that have quit want to play again, and keep the experienced ones and still make new players feel capable, without making all characters overpowered. I'm not joking.--Stack 19:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

And so began the long history of powercreep... 84.238.115.148 16:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

You do realize that anet buffing skills led to some of the worst metas in the history of gw, right? 74.215.145.113 01:35, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Can someone explain this

"While under the effects of this skill and Aura of the Lich, one may control level 21 minions." How you do obtain 21 minions exactly.. :S Magic Talk 23:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

"level 21 minions" Kurtan 23:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

level 21 minions. Highlighting the bit you ignored. --Frosty 23:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Lawls.. whoops. xD Magic Talk 23:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

HERE is something to explain; why is it that THIS can be kept up indefinitely with as low as six in Soul Reaping, but Awaken the Blood requires at least SIXTEEN in Blood Magic? Make them EQUAL I say. Elementalists get Glyph of Elemental Power, Master of Magic, and Elemental Lord, all capable of boosting ALL of their attributes by 1 or more but Necros have to try to reach sixteen just to get a two point boost? To only TWO of their attributes? C'mon Anet... 99.241.34.49 14:12, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

First of all, you can keep up Awaken the Blood at lower level than 16 with an enchantment mod. And to your other retorts on making elementalist and necro skills even: elementalists have Elemental Lord, a title skill with +1, Master of Magic which is elite, and sets your attributes at 12 making other attribute boosting skills pointless, and ends if you use a non-elementalist skill (and making your damage output lower as not even runes etc will help buff damage and you cant use an elite damage skill), and Glyph of Elemental Power which only works on the next 10 skills. As I see it necro's have the advantage with their two skills which aren't elite, aren't very conditional and can stack. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.31.211.130 (talk).

Icon

Saw III anyone? =P--84.192.7.219 10:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

This and Dark Aura on a hero?

Was wondering if anybody knew how effective this would be with Dark Aura on a hero? It seems like it might tend to suck since heroes tend to stay at range but maybe it would work with some close range/touch skills? I mean, it's not like they would never get hit by mobs at close range (and you wouldn't have to worry about losing life as a cost of the damage) but if it's not getting much actual use then (like any other skill) it's kind of pointless. 72.220.21.110 08:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, now that I think about it this would be kind of pointless since if you're going to get up close and personal then you might as well use Demonic Flesh which doesn't require 2 skill slots and a lot of attribute spread to set up decently. Still, if you wanted to nuke the shit out of everything you could stack both and go to town with Signet of Agony and Unholy Feast etc. Might be a fun build to try out. 72.220.21.110 14:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Hero AI behaviour

Changed old note that said "Heroes let Masochism expire before recasting it, rather than (a) taking advantage of available corpses and (b) making use of its potential to boost its own strength".

Gave a very negative impression of this skill, like almost saying dont use it. Opinions? Yoshida Keiji 07:43, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not at all a negative impression. Heroes don't always keep it up, regardless of their skill bar. That means they will cast it with a lower Soul Reaping rank (and therefore sacrifice more health than necessary). They sometimes will animate minions first, rather than using the higher Death Magic rank. Neither of these situations makes Masochism a bad skill; it just points out that heroes don't maximize its value. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a bit unnecessary to note actually, seeing as heroes don't maintain any enchantment unless specifically ordered too. ♥ Tyloric ♣ 22:36, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Heroes maintain Aura of Restoration and the attunement skills (e.g. Earth Attunement) as well as any number of other enchantments. It all depends on whether the game classifies is as a something that should be kept up for combat (e.g. weapon skills work like this) or not. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I meant that heroes always wait until the enchantment has expired before recasting it. With Masochism it's actually beneficial to recast before it expires as it buffs its own duration when active. The same argument could be made with attunements and energy refunds, but that's another conversation. ♥ Tyloric ♣ 22:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Every other hero note on skill pages describe how they use the skill when no other skill interferes. That's why it is to be expected that heroes may let it run out because other skills get higher priority within the short recast window. The previous phrasing gave the impression that heroes never recast Masochism before it expires. However, I wouldn't be opposed to a middle ground, where it is stated that Masochism's medium AI priority (supposedly - it seems to have pretty high priority to me, but I started using it just today) can lead to other skills taking precedence Cealdor (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Icon trivia

re: "The skill icon shows a person experiencing suspension."

→ moved from User talk:Tennessee Ernie Ford#Open your eyes

Open your eyes: 88.152.25.23 03:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the icon looks like a lot of things besides suspension. (It wasn't the first or even eight thing I thought of.) It's also practiced by people who wouldn't identify themselves as masochists. Aside from advertising a specific fetish, I don't think it adds anything interesting to the article. However, I admit that I rarely think that icon-trivia is noteworthy (even though I'm a big fan of GWW's trivia generally).

In other words, I think it ought to be removed from the article, but I'll leave it to others to decide. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It's way too ambiguous to be sure. The first thing I thought when I saw it was that cheesy, yet gruesome opening scene from the movie version of The Hellbound Heart (fuck you Hollywood) where the guy gets pulled apart by hooks and sucked into the box. Furthermore, there's no evidence he's suspended. From the icon's perspective, he appears upright. –Jette 04:26, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

that was third on my list. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Click on the icon the other guy linked to. It's high resolution and you can clearly see the hooks. - MEI FEN /talk 07:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

We all see the hooks just fine, the question is whether or not he's being suspended from them. I don't think he is. This looks like an unused icon from the Nightfall set, judging by the style of the art. Even money says several such icons were recycled into EotN's skill sets. Patient Spirit and Farmer's Scythe are both good examples of this. I believe the two main artists on the project were Doug Williams and Kekai Kotaki. If you can get in touch with either of them and present an e-mail stating that the icon is either A) a photomanipulation of someone undergoing suspension or B) intended to portray suspension, you can add the note. As it is, there's far too many possible interpretations to say that it's suspension for certain, and this "everything everywhere in GW is a reference to something" mentality is spreading like a plague. –Jette 14:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Ambiguous? Do you even grasp the meaning of ambiguity? I highly doubt that. If you actually invested time in looking at the large icon you'd be hit in the face by clearness. You mention so many other valid options so boldly. But where are your other options? What could it else be? Ha? No, you can't. Oh, and by the way "From the icon's perspective, he appears upright" is in no way any proof for anything. I've been at live suspensions — that position is totally possible and usual. 88.152.25.23 17:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Besides, the converse argument to "It's also practiced by people who wouldn't identify themselves as masochists" is 'not true so mentioning this doesn't mean anything at all. 88.152.25.23 17:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I put giant hooks in my skin for fun all the time. I call it "hnuuuhjonky". It could be hnuuuhjonky rather than suspension. There are now two possibilities so let's suspend judgment for now... | 72 | 02:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)