User:Raine Valen/Underpowered Skills/Monk

Monk Skills

Draw Conditions

Draw Conditions

• Inferior in every way to Foul Feast. Foul Feast is a necro skill which means that the conditions will likely be thrown back in the enemy team's face using Plague Sending. The 10% health sacrifice and the 1 energy cost are meaningless as Foul Feast gives both energy and health.
• Suggested improvements to Draw Conditions
  • 5e 1/4s 1r "Transfer all conditions from target other ally to yourself. Gain 15...35...40 health for each condition transferred, and the lengths of the conditions are reduced by 15...51...60%."

Just because a skill is inferior to another skill that does the same in a different attribute line doesn't mean it's underpowered. Some attribute lines are better at certain things than others, that's part of the balance. See Blurred Vision, Reckless Haste and Calculated Risk. Vortex ™ 08:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. There should never be 2 versions of the same skill with one of them being weaker.

^Truth. Draw conditions should be buffed and Foul Feast should be nerfed IMO. -Auron 10:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly, you don't want what I call "zero-sum" balancing where if something gets buffed, another thing MUST get the nerf hammer. Just give Draw Conditions a secondary bonus.

Draw conditions is underpowered, and always has been - it was underpowered before foul feast ever existed. Foul Feast existing just shed new light on how underpowered it was, but since foul feast is (separately) overpowered, it needs a nerf (or a complete rework, since necromancers are too powerful with a draw condi ability that isn't linked to another profession). I'm not trying to balance them compared to each other, I'm trying to fix them both separately, compared to other skills in that profession's line. -Auron 14:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I personally like this skill, as it is. It sees play, and not just in obscure builds. I don't think you could buff it too far without it being too good. Raine - talk 16:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

If Wounding Strike would get nerfed already then Draw would be perfectly balanced imo. Buffing Draw because of one overpowered skill is just power creep and that's bad for the game. Foul Feast needs a nerf in 4vs4, but the problem is that with nerfed Soul Reaping and lack of condition removal nobody would run necros outside of hex builds again. Vortex ™ 19:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

What if Draw had mtouch built in, removing the top two conditions (on that ally, not on you; you can't spam Draw on allies to remove conditions from yourself) on transfer and healing for that much (either on the ally, or on yourself; either would work), in addition to the health gain from Draw? It would look like...

5 ¼ 2 Spell. Target other ally loses two Conditions and is healed for 15...51...60 Health for each Condition removed in this way. All remaining conditions on that ally are transferred to you, and you gain 6...22...26 Health for each condition transferred in this manner.

Ofc, you still have the issue of removing conditions from yourself. The healing on removal and the recharge probably both need to be hit significantly. Raine - talk 19:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, that's pretty hax with those stats. Someone give me another rework idea. Maybe if it healed you and that ally for 10...30...35 for each condition transferred? Raine - talk 19:03, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, the fact is that anything that gives more of an advantage than Foul Feast does is going to be h4x because foul feast is, itself, already h4x. Instant condition removal on frontlines is practically godly as it is. If you pay attention with FF or this you can see a warrior get blinded and have it off of him before he misses his next swing. Note the "you." I can't actually do that because I have such bad lag.Anyway, the problem lies in FF, not in this. This was a solid skill on a lot of bars for almost three years: nothing is wrong with it. FF should be nerfed. --Jette 20:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. After three years, nothing is wrong with healing signet, either. We should just nerf every other form of self heal in the entire game. Oh wait. -Auron 10:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay. The issue with this skill is that it heals you. All other condition removals heal the target, who's been poisoned on fire for the last five seconds and just got DW spiked. They need to be healed. You might need to be healed, but they certainly need to be healed. Furthermore, you're going to get mTouched or RCd, anyway. Or maybe you have Melandru's Resilience. Point is, you don't need the heals, the target does. If this healed that ally for whatever amount and healed you for half that, it would be much better, IMO. Raine - talk 18:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's supposed to be the cost of instant condition removal that doesn't have a prodigious energy cost, horrendous recharge time, or elite status. It doesn't actually help the target. I guess it could be buffed without harm, but Foul Feast needs a nerf before this needs a buff, really. --Jette 21:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Foul feast is OP and this is UP; they're not mutually exclusive. Raine - talk 23:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

FFS DraW is *NOT* UP. People used to run it the whole time. Eles, mesmers, Retarded zoomonkey's EVERY one/thing ran it Lilondra *gale* 21:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Wars used to run Gale, too. And monks with Ether Prodigy. Used to != is.

As far as midline goes, though... well, FF necro or GTFO. True, the instant condition removal is nice (drawing blind rox), but like Jette said, it doesn't heal people.

Now let's talk about me personally. In the current meta, I can't monk without Draw. Why? Well, this and this or this, this and this or even this to this to this, then there's this, and this plus this...

Draw is necessary. Removing a condition every three seconds doesn't do anything. Even if it does heal for a pittance. Single condition removals aren't good enough to keep up with the meta. Hex removals that take three times as long as any hex to recharge don't keep up with the meta. Draw (and other condition removal) and hex removal are way behind.

I mean, think about it...

When was the last time a condition/hex removal skill was buffed? When was the last time a condition/hex skill was buffed? Sure, a monk can run PnH, but the they lose their also-necessary giant heal. Why is that necessary? Well, because damage gets buffed, too.

It's been going on like that for a while now. Damage/hexes/conditions get buffed, monk skills get buffed equally as much. But healing for 50 more isn't anything when 3 of your opponents are running skills x, y, and z which all do 50 more damage than they used to. And when was the last time a non-elite prot got buffed? Go monk a few rounds of HA, or even RA. It's just grieving at this point. Raine - talk 23:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Raine half of the skills you mentioned are broken/OP.You're not using draw to get burning,poison,bleeding,weakness or cracked armour from a foe.You draw to relieve some pressure from the monk.Only DW,Daze,cripple and blind are what should be drawn away.At most give this a small buff in healing really.You have a valid point in how it does no longer keep up with the pressure but the thing is that this isn't what needs a buff.Its some other skills that need a nerf Lilondra *gale* 17:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Glimmer of Light

Glimmer of Light

• Added due to inferiority of WoH. That, and we don't need two elites accomplishing virtually the same thing.
• Suggested functionality changes

5 ½ 2 Elite Enchantment Spell. (2 Seconds) Initial effect: Remove 0...2...3 conditions. End effect: heal for 30...126...150 and remove 0...1...1 hexes.

This would completely obsolete the current Life Sheath. Raine - talk 09:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

5 ¾ 8 Elite Enchantment Spell. (0...12...15 seconds). Remove 2 conditions and 1 hex from target ally every 6...3...2 seconds. For each condition and hex removed, target ally is healed for 20...44...50.

I like the concept of this one a lot, but the numbers need some adjustment. Raine - talk 09:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• Of course, these are probably too strong, but you get the basic idea behind each. --RiddleMT 08:51, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's awesome in that it's a quick, spammable heal. It just has no kind of energy management at all. Maybe something like:

5 ¼ 3 Elite Enchantment Spell. (2 seconds). Remove 1 hex from target ally. After 2 seconds, that ally is healed for 30...142...170 and you gain 1...3...3 Energy.

Non-elite hex removal sucks. Elite hex removal sucks. Average hex removal recharge: 12. Average hex recharge: 8. Average hex removals on a bar: 1. Average hexes on a bar: 3-6. See a problem? Raine - talk 09:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not ridiculously UP, but accomplishing the same thing WoH does--red-barring(WoH has free spike-catching too)--except costlier in the end is rather pointless. If we want to keep it like WoH's little brother, would just adding "if target is under 50% health, you gain 1...3...3 energy" help? --Riddle 15:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The only thing about that is that it doesn't heal for enough to get a target completely out of the "vulnerable to spikes" zone; they'd either all be hovering around 70-80% or you'd still end up spending the extra energy to get them at full. Raine - talk 17:43, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to keep in mind that skills like blessed light are UP now and so is this one but the main REASON they are up is because to many skills are OP.If you would spam this as much as it is neccesary to keep up with the pressure you would be drained in at most 20 seconds Lilondra *gale* 17:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Healing Light

Healing Light

• added do to the low healing power and weak conditional energy return, pales in comparison with skills such as Word of healing.
• Suggested improvements (all at 15 healing):
  • 5e 3/4c 3r "Heal target ally for 150 health, if that ally was enchanted Healing Light heals for an aditional 150 health"
  • 5e 5/4c 3r "Heal target ally for 200 health, if that ally was enchanted you gain 3 energy"

64.149.24.114 15:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The first one completely outshines WoH. The second one is pretty pwnage, too. Raine - talk 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe turn it into an elite version of Cure hex. 5e 5/4c 3r "heal target ally for 200 health. remove a hex from that ally." - it needs to be a strong heal to be worthy of an elite slot, and a 3 second hex removal skill is roxors. 64.149.24.114 19:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Holy Wrath

Holy Wrath

• Added because it's pretty useless in real PvP.
• Suggested functionality changes:

10 0.25¼ 5 Enchantment Spell. For 3...7...8 seconds, whenever target ally takes damage, 66% of that damage is redirected to the source (maximum 20...52...60 damage). This enchantment ends after it deals damage 10 times.

Mending

Mending

• Added due to exceptionally poor healing/energy ratio; even at 13 Healing Prayers, this skill pales in comparison to such things as Vigorous Spirit.
• Suggested functionality changes:
  • Enchantment Spell. While you maintain this Enchantment, target ally gains +2...5...6 Health regeneration. --Raine Valen 16:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No way. Passive skills are passive, don't buff them. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Mending isn't that bad in terms of health gain for energy cost, if it isn't stripped. Just reduce cost to 5 energy and casting time to 1 sec and its playable.Crimmastermind 05:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Mending is ridiculously terrible in terms of health gain for energy cost. 1 pip is a *lot* for a healing monk, and it starts off costing 10. Even reducing the start cost to 5, you're losing that plus 20 energy every minute for a pitiful heal (6 or 8 hp a second).

Compare a 14 spec mending to a 14 spec orison over 10 seconds. With 3 casts of orison (a notoriously underpowered heal), you'd spend 15 energy for 201 HP (plus divine favor x3, and at 12 spec that's 114 extra hp for a total of 315). Mending costs 13 and a third energy for 80 health, 118 if you count divine favor. That's... really bad. -Auron 13:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Enchantment spell, for (X) seconds, whenever target ally gains a condition, that ally loses one condition they had before. I dunno, could be helpful for something. No idea what the cost and recharge should be. Too early. --Jette 13:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

5 1 4 Enchantment spell. While you maintain this enchantment, target ally gains +1...3...3 Health Regeneration and loses 1 condition every 7...5...4 seconds. When Mending ends, that ally loses 1 condition.

I think that's reasonable. Maybe move it to prot prayers. Raine - talk 19:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks a bit clumsy to me. Dark Morphon(contribs) 14:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It'd be like Purifying Veil, except with a benefit to maintaining it. Also, decreased recharge. Raine - talk 09:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Pensive Guardian

Pensive Guardian

• Added because it wasn't buffed when guardian was, despite being more conditional.
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 ¾ 4 Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, target ally gains +12...22...24 armor and blocks the next attack skill used against them. When an attack skill is blocked in this way, that ally is healed for 15...71...85 and Pensive Guardian ends.

Is that better than RoF, or no? Raine - talk 19:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

What would be the point of Shield Guardian, then? :\ Vili 18:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

See shield guardian below. Raine - talk 09:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

that would be better then RoF by effect. RoF has half the recharge but spamming it on recharge is quite dumb anyway Lilondra *gale* 20:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Retribution

Retribution

• Added because it's pretty useless in real PvP.
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 1 6 Enchantment Spell. For 5...21...25 seconds, whenever target ally takes damage, 33% of that damage is redirected to the source (maximum 5...13...15 damage). This enchantment ends after it deals damage 15 times.

Shield Guardian

Shield Guardian

• Added because no one runs it. Ever.
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 ¼ 8 Enchantment Spell. For 1...4...5 seconds, target ally cannot lose more than 15...7...5% of their maximum health from a single damage source. Whenever damage is reduced in this way, you lose 1 Energy. This enchantment ends after that ally takes damage 2...6...7 times.

It's like sbond, but not. Issue I see is the two of them having really, really awesome synergy. Raine - talk 19:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

This skill is currently widely used in Elementalist bonder builds for DoA. It could use a buff though. -- Karasu (talk) 15:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

How is something widely used in a niche build? =/ Raine - talk 00:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

How about make it a guardian for spells, straight up? guardian stats, except instead of blocking phys attacks, it makes spells miss. It would help to balance out casterspikes (including searing flames), sinsplits, bsurge spamming retards, hexes... pretty much everything that's wrong with the game atm. The only (relatively small) downside is that stuff like diversion would miss. Whoop de doo, diversion is terribly designed anyway. -Auron 10:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Just spells that have a cast time of longer than 1/4 of a second, imo. Making mesmer interrupts a coin flip would basically remove them from the game. --71.229.253.172 10:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair point. But things like WoD would also have to be increased. -Auron 10:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

That should happen anyway. :> --71.229.253.172 10:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Or just remove a lot of damage from spells like they should so we dont need to counter offensive spells ? And get half of our utility raped to hell ? Just my opinion though Lilondra *gale* 13:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Shield of Judgment

Shield of Judgment

• Added because it is way too passive and is useless in PvP. Limited use in PvE farming.
• Suggestions
  • 5e 1s 20r, decrease duration to 4...9...10.

10 0.75¾ 3 Elite Enchantment Spell. For 2...7...8 seconds, target ally gains +10...21...24 armor and 5...17...20 damage reduction. Whenever that ally takes damage, the source of that damage takes 50...130...150% of that damage and is knocked down.

Damage is retribution-ed before it is reduced. The recharge is super low, but HF spamming a 10e spell. You're not an ele, kthx. Raine - talk 18:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

GoLE says O HAI!

So you would knock down a fire storm ? AWESOME Lilondra *Poke* 16:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

GoLE sais ohai2u... every 30 seconds. That's really not going to help you spam a 10e spell. Raine - talk 21:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Shielding Hands

Shielding Hands

• Added because it doesn't reduce enough damage to be worthwhile with the current high-damage meta (16 axe mastery crits over SB. No one should ever need to SB autoattacks).
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 0.75¾ 6 Enchantment Spell. For 2...7...8 seconds, target ally and adjacent allies gain +12...34...40 armor and 5...21...25 damage reduction.

This would help to counter caster pressure, as well. It would also help to make HA less insane. Raine - talk 11:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

You made that way overpowered. It barely needs to be touched at all, it's hardly underpowered. It's more of an arena skill. Misery 11:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Even in Arenas, shielding hands doesn't counter... well, anything. The amount of pressure it takes off is so tiny, it's almost laughable.

Upped recharge and lowered duration. Raine - talk 18:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Compare the stacking of an armor bonus with base damage reduction to Defy Pain to get an idea of just how powerful that combination is. You probably want to chop it down to +24 armor at reasonable spec with max 10 base reduction. If you are going to keep it aoe, 1/4 cast with old recharge/duration inverted. I honestly think you are underestimating this skill. SoA beats it in most situations, but the strength comes in it's 1/4 second cast. There are only about 3 viable small prots and this is one of them. Misery 23:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Holy crap, it is better than Defy Pain. =x

Still, I would love to see some better small prots. SoA and Guardian... that's really about it. =/

Here:

5 0.25¼ 8 Enchantment Spell. For 4...14...16 seconds, target ally and adjacent allied gain +8...21...24 armor and 0...12...15 damage reduction.

Yes? Raine - talk 23:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you missed the part where I said flip the recharge and duration. A prot that powerful shouldn't have 200% uptime. Misery 23:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The original was

5 0.25¼ 15 with an 8 sec duration. Which is why I hate it. I think you might've had it backward. Raine - talk 01:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Smiter's Boon (PvP)

Smiter's Boon (PvP)

• Added due to the fact that it's still not back in the game.
• Suggested functionality changes:
  • Enchantment Spell. While you maintain this enchantment, your spells grant no benefit from Divine Favor but your Smiting Prayers deal 15...43...50% more damage. This enchantment ends if you use any non-Smiting skills. Raine Valen 19:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Okay, so it kind of goes against the whole divine favor attribute. But it was broken as it was, from concept forward. It needed to be entirely redesigned. Raine Valen 19:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Enchantment Spell. While you maintain this enchantment, whenever you cast a spell, target and all adjacent creatures take 15...51...60 Holy damage and you lose 2 energy. This enchantment ends if you use any non-Smiting Prayers skills of if you cast a spell that targets a foe. Raine Valen 19:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Again, this is kind of anti-divine favor (in fact, I tried to make it the exact opposite of Divine Boon), but for the same reason. While it may look OP here, consider, you're also doing a nice job of singing whatever ally you're casting spells on. Think like, spammable Ancestor's Rage that hurts whoever you cast it on. Raine Valen 19:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
    • EDIT: modified to only affect spells on allies. Raine Valen 20:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds interesting, but how about just making it an attunement spell for smiting prayers, to compliment Word of Censure? 145.94.74.23 08:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This would break Smiting again. You'd have the ultimate passive offense--suddenly conditions on your team would become a massive aoe bomb, as would hexes. Reversal of Damage would become a huge pressure/anti pressure skill, and would once again become a spell you'd just stick on a smite hero. -Sorale

Enchantment Spell. For 30 seconds your Smiting Prayers attribute is raised by 2.

Well, at least better than it is now :P Vortex ™ 19:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Succor

Succor

• It just flat out blows ass. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 21:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Supportive Spirit

Supportive Spirit

• Added because it just flat out blows ass.
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 0.25¼ 3 Target ally gains +8...21...24 Armor and +3...7...8 Health Regeneration for 3...5...6 seconds. Whenever that ally is knocked down, they gain 20...52...60 Health and this enchantment is reapplied.

Might be OP. Maybe "Target other ally", 10, or 0.75¾. Raine - talk 11:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

That indeed is quite OP Lilondra *gale* 08:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Withdraw Hexes

Withdraw Hexes

• Added because it can only be used once per match against Hexway.
• Suggested functionality changes:

5 0.25¼ 3 Transfer all Hexes from target other ally to yourself. You and that ally gain 10...34...40 Health for each Hex transferred in this way.

Pretty self-explanatory. Raine - talk 23:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Word of Censure

Word of Censure

• Added because the damage is too low for it to be an effective elite offensive spell, not to mention the chance of extra recharge. Furthermore, the ten-energy cost makes this spell expensive with very little energy management in the Smiting Prayers line. Compare this to Searing Flames, with the same casting time and recharge: this does less damage, has no Fire Attunement compliment (Searing Flames actually costs LESS after return from Fire Attunement), doesn't cause any extra conditions, is not AoE, and has the drawback of being all but unusable on targets below 33% health.
• Suggested functionality changes:
  • Elite Spell. Target foe takes 5...105...130 holy damage, but becomes immune to holy damage for 5 seconds. If that foe was attacking, you gain 1...5...6 energy. If that foe was below 50% health, this spell is disabled for an additional 18...10...8 seconds. Raine - talk 22:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Elite Spell. Target foe takes 5...105...130 holy damage. If that foe was casting a spell, you gain 1...5...6 energy. If that foe was below 33% health, this spell is disabled for an additional 18...10...8 seconds. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 02:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

That could work, except GL getting an "interrupt" with a 1 sec cast spell. Raine - talk 08:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

130x5 = 650 armor ignoring damage on a 2 sec recharge. just have 5 ppl running this with some smite hex/condition/RoD, a few healing skills and 3 more ppl for fun. call 3,2,1 and no one have more than 650 health, no monk can infuse/heal/prot 650 damage in one single second, and if the monk infuse just WoC him 2 sec later. I'm not being negative, it's just what'd happen. --Cancer Angel 09:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

When I wrote this, I was comparing it to Searing Flames. Which was stupid. Needs a major revision, IMO. Raine - talk 00:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Added clause, this might fix it. Raine - talk 00:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• 5 , 0.75¾ , 3 Elite Spell. Target foe takes 20...49...56 holy damage, If that foe was above 50% health, you deal an additional 10...29...34 holy damage. If that foe was below 50% health, this spell is disabled for an additional 7 seconds.

being an unconditional Discord above 50% while being as bad as Banish under 50% = not capable of spiking with, not too much random text to solve different things, pretty basic and also more of a twin to Word of Healing. --Cancer Angel 10:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I like that one. Striking mine. Raine - talk 09:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Smiting is a dangerous line to buff.And it will remain even more dangerous until hero's are removed from gvg and ha Lilondra *gale* 09:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)