User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Ritualist/Archive 3

Channeling Magic

Spirit Rift

This Spell has become too weak imho. Mabe it could be changed to: "Spell. Open a Spirit Rift at target foe's location. After 3 seconds, all adjacent foes are struck for 23...110...130 lightning damage." 10 Energy / 1 Activation time / 8 Recharge time. A. von Rin 01:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This out nukes the entire air magic line and is in the same attribute as Ancestor's Rage and Splinter Weapon. Do you really want to buff something that spikes in adjacent AoE? (Albeit after 3 seconds)? Leave this for PVE. --Life Infusion «T» 02:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Imo this skill has no use in PvE, 2 seconds cast and another 3 until you do damage at target foe's location, if you hit anything at all. That delay is so terrible it's simply not worth a skill slot 87.189.220.71.

Spirit Rift has now 5 seconds "casting time" to take effect and 3 seconds of this time to run away from the area of effect... Besides of this you have no armor penetration like Eles and no secondary effect (cracked armor, weakness, etc.), which also are dealt by Eles with their air attribute. Ritualists also lack AoE damage compared to Eles and one of their few AoEs was nerfed too much. Giving the skill an recast increasement and lowering the casting time would be better than the version we have... -.- A. von Rin 20:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Destructive was Glaive

is there any reason why this makes you lose all enchantments? --Life Infusion «T» 22:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

no --90.227.105.24 22:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

E/Rt abuse during alpha testing? -- Gordon Ecker 01:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Signet of Spirits

what would make this okay is if you were not near it spirit then you gain half the energy. Right now Offering of Spirit is better unless you run Mantra of Inscriptions. --Life Infusion «T» 22:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Offering of Spirit

Really weak compared to Offering of Blood. -- Gordon Ecker 00:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

lol. —ǥrɩɳsɧƴɖɩđđɭɘş 00:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Offering of Blood has unconditional 20% health sacrifice. --Life Infusion «T» 02:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Communing

Xinrae's Weapon

Yeah, I know, the discussion is in the archive, but I'd like to throw in another idea:
Elite Weapon Spell. For 5...10...11 seconds, target ally has Xinrae's Weapon. The next time a foe casts a Spell on that ally, that Spell is disabled for an additional 3...7...8 seconds for that foe and all party members of that foe. Stats: 5/0.25/10.
Numbers on this one can change, the basic idea is to limit the effect to the next spell: This way it's not so pretty damn scary and can be buffed properly. I'm not sure if this (changed) skill would find it's way into the (HA) meta, as it's still elite, and elite slots are precious and rare, but maybe it's a good start. - TeleTeddy 08:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally, Id rather them (Im including Defiant Was Xinrae in this discussion too, since they are similar) be moved in a different direction than trying to balance broken party builds, since its such a niche skill Im not sure it would be effective (think of vocal minority). So I thought maybe it could use a more of change into a better defense skill.

Defiant Was Xinrae 5 or 10 energy--1/4 cast--20 or 30 recharge

Item Spell---Hold Xinrae's ashes for 5...13..15 seconds. While you hold her ashes, whenever a foe uses a skill on you, that foe's skills are disabled for 3...5..6 seconds. When you drop her ashes, all nearby foe's skills are disabled for 3...5..6.

Still not sure about whether Defiant Was Xinrae will be really good self-defense.

Xinrae's Weapon 10 or 15 energy--1/4 cast--20 or 30 recharge

Weapon Spell---For 4...9..10 seconds, target ally has Xinrae's Weapon. Whenever a foe uses a skill against target ally, that foe's skills are disabled for 3...5..6 seconds.

If they are OP, I think that might be balanced by the fact they are in communing, possibly.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 00:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, your idea has nothing to do with mine. Also, your proposal for Xinrae's Weapon seems way overpowered: A non-removable Spellbreaker with no downtime not only to spells but to any skill type? Or did I misunderstand something? - TeleTeddy 18:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I know my idea has nothing to do with yours, never said it did, and a discussion doesnt have to be based around one suggestion :/

I know its overpowered atm (fixed my idea now), Im just trying to get another idea out there, other than just making it spammable but reduce it to only the next time, sure its an interesting skill, but Id rather it be useful AND more versatile (its limited to spellcaster spikes atm, which as far as I know, arent very popular except in HA, and even then, its fire spam, and thats AoE, meaning if they know you have it, theyll just switch targets and still be just as effective), especially since its a defensive elite, and considering a lot of defensive elites are lacking Id like to see it taken in a different direction, and Id like to see less caster-only hate (there are enough defensive skills that only work on spells, give us something against physicals), so I switched it to affect skills (still won't stop physicals, but its an improvement imo).--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 02:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This is one of those spells that's unusable because it would be broken otherwise. I like the suggestion of preventing the next cast (and disabling it for say 5-10 seconds) but the recharge needs to be lowered to 5 seconds or so (to make it active instead of passive). It would prevent this from being a mindless "throw it on an ally for invulnerability to spell spam" --Life Infusion «T» 23:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind unlike things like Spell Breaker, once this is on it cannot be removed. --Life Infusion «T» 00:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

They could reduce the energy cost to 10 energy, recast time to 20 seconds and make the skill sacrifice 20% health instead of the high energy costs now. A. von Rin 18:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

5energy cost , 20%life sac and a 25sec recharge would make such a good skill like this one usefull 189.70.172.169 19:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Guided Weapon

Maybe buff Guided Weapon some? Its 15 energy cost is way too much to pay for its benefits. Maybe a better idea would be like this: Weapon Spell. For 5...10...11 seconds, target ally's attacks cannot be blocked. (10 energy, 1 activation, 15 recharge) - this would put it on par with Warmonger Weapon, giving ritualists another option for support and for fighting the block web in the meta.217.156.103.4 15:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I like this idea, but i would increase recharge only to 8 seconds and instead decrease skill effect time to: "Weapon Spell. For 2...5...8 seconds, target ally's attacks cannot be blocked." A. von Rin 18:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Dulled Weapon

bad considering it only affects Assassins most of the time. --Life Infusion «T» 22:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Untrue, but needs to have lower cost/recharge for an actually decent aoe anti-melee hex. At the moment, its too costly to justify use and in a pretty horrible attribute line in terms of hexes. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Samcobra (talk).

Whatever you say. Keep in mind criticals, while dealing more damage than normal hits, are not worth a skill slot to shut down. I'd rather have damage reduction, blind, snare, or miss. Anyhow, suggestion: add "and do 30% less attack damage" [a Dervish counter] OR "Weaponspell. For 2...8...10 seconds, target ally has a Dulled Weapon that does blunt damage and knocks down foes using an adrenaline skill." [linebacking] --Life Infusion «T» 00:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Make it actually be a weapon spell taht you can cast on enemies... Except the only way to remove it would be to cast another. ~~ 66.57.17.110 00:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Disenchantment , Dissonance

is there any reason why these skills cost 25 energy? why can't these skills have the permanent duration of 30sec as in Shadowsong? they already have a 5sec casting time. i'd say , to decrease the spirit level into "Create a level 1...5...6 Spirit" , decrease the energy cost into 15 and make them last 30seconds , just like shadowsong. 189.70.208.9 19:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Shelter

drop energy cost into 15 189.70.208.9 19:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Restoration Magic

Mending Grip

This skill is currently very underpowered. It gives a weak heal, has conditional condition removal, and has a long recharge. This skill is worse than Mend Body and Soul in every single way. I suggest boosting Healing and decrease recharge. --Shadetz X 10:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the only thing wrong with it is the recharge. It has a more sure fire and simple condition to meet, and opens up more synergy with weapon spells. But Mend Body and Soul has the opportunity to remove several conditions at once, so it should have the same cast time and recharge time, a moderate cure and circumstancial condition removal cannot contribute enough at 6 second recharge, it should at least be 3.--BahamutKaiser 01:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This skill is very underpowered. Maybe this can be turned into a AoE heal since rits do no have one. --216.113.208.132 02:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd laugh my ass off if it was "buffed" to...

"Spell. Target ally is healed for 15...63...75 Health. For each weapon Spell on target ally, that ally loses one Condition." --Deathwing 04:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you click that handy link to weapon spells and read about it deathwing. I think it would be fairly reasonable if it was a touch based AoE condition removal, as in it heals target ally, and if they have a weapon spell on, that ally and adjacent allies have a condition removed.--BahamutKaiser 13:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

So much for a joke eh? --Deathwing 21:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, i know this page is cluttered with skills that dont need to be here, but this skill actually does need a little buff.24.47.18.113 19:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill definitely needs to have its recharge halved and healing brought up to par with mend body and soul, or at least somewhat close to MBaS's healing.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 05:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Definitely needs recharge to be brought down since it is a single removal one hundred percent of the time. Even Mend ailment has a lower recharge with its 5 recharge and it used to be 2 seconds recharge. The healing power isn't anything to be desired either since Mend Body and Soul heals for nearly 1.5 times and has possibility of removing a stack of conditions if there are spirits around. The cast time should be 3/4 to match up with other condition removals most likely.--Life Infusion «T» 20:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

If anything a rit could just spec a handful of Spawning Power and bring Wielder's Remedy, since it more or less has the same requirement (weapon spell) as Mending Grip without the 6 cooldown. As it is now, Weapon of Remedy or Vengeful Weapon + wielder's remedy > Mending Grip in terms of condition removal activation speed and recharge.--Life Infusion «T» 20:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand this skill exactly. It basically fails in all aspects as already said. It is a weak condition removal, and the heal it pitiful compared to Mend Body and Soul. It only functions really with "long lasting" Weapon Spells. I can see if being useful in maybe a Spirit Light Weapon build, but in its current state I *still* run Mend Body and Soul and Life as my Spirit. I think that healing should be upped, or recharge should be brought down to 3 seconds. Mainly, this is not a skill designed against spikes, but designed to combat pressure. Conditions = Pressure. A low recharge, low heal, useful effect is something that rits need. My ideal fix would be to add a "if a condition is removed, heal for an extra *attributex3* health. It would be like getting a little divine favor bonus in there, and then the decreased recharge. It really needs something. In terms of healing, Wielder's Boon can heal through better for a person with a weapon spell. In terms of Conditions, MB&S is superior. There's no place for this skill right now in its current state. TGgold 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

considering this is like orison on 6 recharge and no divine favor when the target is without a weapon spell I think it still needs a buff. --Life Infusion «T» 01:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Tranquil Was Tanasen

move this into communing , this skill is totally useless under restoration magic--189.70.107.206 11:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

agreed. restoration magic doesn't need anti-interrupts for the most part. --Life Infusion «T» 02:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ghostmirror Light

2sec recharge and increasing the heal a bit would make it better , right now it's kinda weak--189.70.107.206 11:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

helping skill spam is a bad idea. 3 recharge is balanced. Upping the heal to roughly 100-110 would be nice but it isn't really necessary. --Life Infusion «T» 02:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I would honestly rather it healed the spirit than me....might be one step to making Communing Spirits viable, and not passive. --Deathwing 05:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

you have a good point here , moving this into communing and make this heal target ally and the nearest ally spirit near you , would be very good , since spirit spam got hugely nerfed 189.70.208.9 19:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Spawning Power

Spawning Power & Spirit Mechanics

I think SP belongs to the worst Primary Attributes in GW. It has no effect on builds with second classes like other PAs and with the nerfs of the Spirits the bonus is not good enough for the primary profession like Divine Favor for example. Maybe it would help the class to change that. My idea was to give the Ritu an health boost for every rank of SP by 3 (for example @ SP of 12 = 36 health), whenever a creature within earshot dies. Because Spirits would be killed faster, their recast time should be reduced as well as their costs. They should not cost more than 15 energy as a maximum. Spirits that now cost 25 energy should be reduced to 15 energy and instead have 10%-20% of health sacrifice. This would give Ritus more chances for nice second class builds, without losing all advantage of their Primary Attribute and would balance a too excessive usage of Spirits, because of the health loss. I think losing health is more appropriate than exhaustion (which was tested before) and gives the class more tactical options. A. von Rin 02:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

your idea is interesting , but i'd prefer that when an spirit dies , you gain some health and energy , similar to the derv's Mysticism , spirits should not cost 25 energy , they already got nerfed losing 50HP and being affected by burning , there's also the issue with Weapon Spells , since only a very few of them benefit from SP--189.70.107.206 11:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Spirit Channeling

wanna-be Ether Prodigy. This needs a lower cooldown (20 seconds is a good one) since the effect is not strong enough to be an elite (especially side by side with Attuned was Songkai, Signet of Spirits, and Offering of Spirit. --Life Infusion «T» 21:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Feast of Souls

honestly unless you bring Ranger elite spirits that recharge in 15 seconds or Soul Twisting there is no way to fuel this. --Life Infusion «T» 22:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Wielder's Zeal

You need 10 spawning to make it better than Attuned was Songkai (granted this lets you use your HCT/HSR weapon mods) and that is just for 5 energy weapon spells. Also I don't understand why it costs 10 energy. --Life Infusion «T» 22:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Energetic Was Lee Sa

At 16 spawning, it nets you ~11 energy. Now, let's bring it down to realistic levels. At 9 spawning it nets you ~3 energy. The problem is, in the meantime you could have been using Protective was Kaolai and preventing more damage than that. It is just a horrible, horrible skill with no purpose. Compare to GoLE at 0 comes out to...
GoLE - Gained/Saved per second @0 - .5/second
EwLS - Gained/Saved per second @12 - .51/second
Basically, you need 12 Spawning to balanced out Glyph of Lesser Energy at 0. Make it cost 5 energy could do alot for it, as using an item spell takes away your weapon buffs. ~~ 66.57.17.110 23:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Defensive PvE ritualists in general

The problem with defensive Ritualists in PvE is that they have a tiny niche compared to healing and protection Monks. Here's a table comparing skills, assuming 13 Divine Favor or Spawning Power, 16 in any relevant secondary attribute, a 20% Enchanting weapon and no other skills.

High-efficiency Ritualist healing and damage prevention skills.
Displacement	15, 3, 45	Blocks 75% of incoming attacks against allies within range, ends after it blocks 6 attacks.
Life	10, 3, 20	Heal each party member for up to 140 Health each, for a total of up to 1120 Health with a 20 second delay, or less with a shorter delay if another skill is used to take out the spirit early, for sustainable party healing of up to 48.7 Health per second.
Preservation	5, 3, 20	Heals a random party members in the area for 122 damage every 4 seconds, for a total of up to 2684 healing over 90 seconds if the fight doesn't end earlier and it isn't killed by AoE nukes, for sustainable party healing of up to 45 Health per second.
Protective Was Kaolai	10, 1, 15	While held, provides +24 armor, when dropped, heals each party member for up to 90 Health, for a total up to 720 Health, and sustainable party healing of up to 34.3 Health per second.
Recuperation	25, 3, 45	Provides all non-Spirit allies within range +3 Health regeneration, for a total of 48 Health per second and 2256 Health over 47 seconds, for sustainable party healing of up to 48 Health per second.
Rejuvenation	10, 3, 30	Provides a total of ~517 healing divided evenly among all party members within earshot, for ~64.6 Healing each over 7+ seconds.
Shelter	25, 5, 45	The text 6 times a party member would lose more than 10% of their Health from a single damage packet, that damage packet is capped at 10%.
Spirit Light	5, 1, 4	Heal target ally for 188 Health, sacrifice 17% of maximum Health if there are no spirits within earshot.
Spirit Light Weapon	5, 1, 5	Heals the ally for 16 Health per second and an additional 16 Health per second if within earshot of a spirit for 13 seconds, for a total of up to 416 healing.
Union	15, 3, 45	Prevents ~243 damage to the party, 15 damage at a time, for an average of ~5.1 damage prevented per second.
Weapon of Warding	10, 1, 5	For 13 seconds, target ally has +4 Health regeneration and a 50% chance to block incoming attacks, for a total of 104 Health.
Xinrae's Weapon	25, 0.25¼, 30	For 13 seconds, whenever a foe casts a Spell on target ally, that spell is disabled for an additional 16 seconds for that foe and all party members of that foe.
High-efficiency Monk healing and damage prevention skills.
Aegis	10, 2, 30	All allies within earshot block 50% of all incoming attacks for 13 seconds.
Divine Healing Heaven's Delight	5, 1, 15	Heals yourself for 96 Health and all other allies within earshot for 54 Health each, for a total of up to 474 Health and sustainable party healing of 29.6 Health per second.
Guardian	5, 1, 2	Target ally is healed for 42 Health, for up to 8 seconds, target ally has a 50% chance to block incoming attacks.
Healer's Boon	5, 0.25¼, 10	Elite Enchantment spell. You are healed for 42 Health. For 49 seconds, your Healing Prayers Spells cast 50% faster and heal for 50% more Health excluding the Divine Favor bonus.
Heal Party	15, 1, 2	Heals the entire party for a total of 666 Health, 120 on the caster, 78 on other party members, for sustainable party healing of up to 59.2 Health per second.
Healing Breeze	10, 1, 2	Enchantment Spell. Heal taget ally for 42 Health plus 18 Health per second for 18 seconds, for a total of up to 366 Health.
Healing Burst	5, 3/4, 10	Heals yourself or target touched ally for 200 Health and all other nearby allies for up to 158 Health, for a total of up to 1306. If it heals more than one ally, you lose 5 Energy.
Healing Ribbon	10, 1, 5	Heals taget ally for 158 Health and up to two nearby allies for 106 Health each, for a total of up to 370 Health.
Light of Deliverance	5, 1, 10	Heals all party members for up to 74 Health each and heals yourself for an additional 42 Health for a total of up to 634 Health, for sustainable party healing of up to 57.6 Health per second.
Protective Spirit	10, 0.25¼, 5	Target ally is healed for 42 Health, for 29 seconds, target ally cannot lose more than 10% of their Health from a single damage packet.
Shield Guardian	10, 1, 1	Heals target ally for 42 Health and then blocks the next attack, once it blocks, it heals target ally and all nearby allies for 84 Health, for a maximum of 714 Health.
Shield of Regeneration	15, 0.25¼, 8	Target ally is healed for 42 Health, for 17 seconds, target ally has +10 Health regeneration and +40 armor, for a total of 382 healing over 17 seconds.
Spirit Bond	10, 0.25¼, 2	Target ally is healed for 42 Health, for 10 seconds, the next 10 times target ally would take more than 60 damage in a single damage packet, that ally is healed for 104 Health, for a total of up to 1082 Health.
Spell Breaker	15, 1, 45	Target ally is healed for 42 Health, for 18 seconds, enemy Spells targeted against target ally fail.
Zealous Benediction	10, 0.75¾, 4	Heals target ally for 232 Health, refunds 7 Energy if target is under 50% Health.
Word of Healing	5, 0.75¾, 3	Heals target other ally for 180 Health and an additional 106 Health if target is under 50% Health for a total of up to 286 Health.

In PvE, defense is about dealing with pressure and spikes. Unlike PvP opponents, who make coordinated spikes focused on single targets, PvE opponents make uncoordinated spikes against multiple targets, and, due to their larger party sizes, higher levels and the boss damage buff, this uncoordinated nuking actually poses a threat. Most of the PvP spike counters don't work because the monsters spread the damage between targets, and can often keep up a spike much longer than players, Monks can counter with Light of Deliverance, Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond. The only viable counters Ritualists had were Shelter, which got nerfed to death ages ago, and "There's Nothing to Fear!" plus Vocal was Sogolon, which was only viable for a few days before it got nerfed for secondary Paragons. In other words, Ritualists need a viable counter against uncoordinated brute force attacks. -- Gordon Ecker 02:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just me, but I think there are too many variables to be able to provide a direct comparison between the two professions. Primarily, spirits are functionally different to spells and enchantment spells. I think that this comparison does show that Ritualists have skills that are not as effective as it would be if they were played in the same environment as a Monk, the flaw being that Rits are have more leeway into their other attributes to perform other functions in the same build, where the monk can only heal and protect... or smite. Finally, I think that the skills that the Ritualist has available are not tailored to be played in the current setting that GuildWars is run under. That is somewhat similar to the dilemma of the Mesmer. (Terra Xin 16:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC))

There are alot of variables certainly, but for someone who wants to see a profession do well, and compete as an alternative to monk, it is a neccessity. Lets look at some of these variables.

Defensive spirits cover a wide area, beyond the reach of an attack, this allows spirits to cover allies from beyond harms range, and cover a group in a large but stationary location. The would be benifit is that it covers a group of allies, which requires less attention that picking the allie which is taking damage, and ensuring his survival, but since most defensive spirits drop so fast, it does not protect against a spike, and it does not prevent a fraction of the damage, nor does it make a significant impact over a group of allies.

Next we can dismiss the idea that Ritualist have more leeway in their attributes, because even with maximum investment in communing and spawning power, the defensive abilities are worthless to compared to monks defensive abilities without even using their primary attribute. Recooperation is perhaps the only one that serves its function, and it cost the amount of energy it should to provide a subtle restoring effect on a large group of allies. We can also recognize that it is perfectly possible for a monk to operate in all 4 of their attributes at the same time with reasonable effect. This might seem insignificant except even with a 4 attribute divide, a monks abilities will outstrip ritualist abilities in defense and probably healing at the same time.

As for Spirit counters, it is fairly inclusive, any damaging ability can be used to wipe out a spirit very quickly. With their reduced level, it rarely takes more than 4 good hits to wipe them out, with max spawning power and related attribute, a spirit has roughly the health of a player, with half the level. Level calculates in the amount of damage received effectivly doubling the damage taken from foes twice a spirits level. But we can also include spirit destruction skills, which not only deal potent damage on spirits, but offer powerful additional effects if they hit a spirit, and are still mildly funcitonal as opponent damaging skills even if a spirit is not present. Most Monk Defensive abilities are enchantments, which can be stripped, enchantment stripping requires an enchantment stripping ability, and those are often not useful if enchantments arn't being used. So we can see that Spirits are actually easier to eliminate, enchantment stripping has become commonplace since monks dominate the defensive field, and even paragons outstrip Ritualist in some fields like providing blocking, the only stipulation that makes spirits more difficult to counter is their effective radius, or range of effect, which allows them to protect allies at a greater distance than attacks can be made on it. But since spirits are immobile, skills have to be used to mobilize this defense, and moving them is slow and trecherous.

So when we calculate the significant factors in Ritualist Defensive abilities compared to monk, we have more expensive, less effective, easier to counter, less mobile abilities, with the only advantage of having greater effective range..... unless your trying to compare the completely useless Displacement with Aegis, since Aegis also has a greater range as well as stronger defensive capabilities, lower cost and more frequent reuse on top of that. But all of these factors are a smoke screen for the simple and obvious fact that Ritualist Defensive functions are grossly ineffective by any simple observation. I'm not going to get into all the remdies for this yet, there are reasons to protect against ritualist defenses being overpowered, but first I will give other an opportunity to discuss the state of ritualist defense first.--BahamutKaiser 22:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

While I do not agree with this full argument, since Restoration Ritualists are actually pretty good at party wide heals. LoD makes monks better suited even though that is a borderline overpowered skill. The gripe that I have is the effects of Communing Spirits. They have a really strong effect that lasts about 5-10 seconds on average, sometimes even less, then they a HUGE recharge time. The only way to get any use out of these spirits is if you go pure Communing + Spawning Power, which basically gives you one choice, and that is loading your bar with spirits. Using Communing Spirits with split attributes is by no way at all worth it. Summon a spirit that blocks 3 attacks every 45 seconds? A spirit that negates a whooping 150ish damage every 45 seconds at the cost of 25 energy? You CAN"T split attributes if you want to use defensive spirits, it just doesn't work. It requires total investment in spawning power, which then requires you run a bar filled with spirits. I can't really think of many ways that this could be changed. Buffing Spawning Power could be a possible change, so that it does not require total investment with a mediocre return. Maybe if it gave spirits a damage reduction %. Like 2% damage reduction for every point in Spawning Power. This effect would have to reduce the damage they take naturally, such as the damage that Union suffers when it negates damage. The problem with this is, is that it might make them too strong, with their strong effects. Another solution that I can think of, would be to drastically reduce their effects, and remove the damage they take. This would improve their up-time, would make them usable without spawning power, and allow for split attributes. The downside with this would be that it would almost totally get rid of any use for Spawning Power. I don't know, that is my take on the whole thing. --Deathwing 01:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

This is basically what I covered above when I remarked on Shelter. These effects are to expensive to utilize, too brief and infrequent to depend upon, and too powerful to make simple improvements on. The whole system simply doesn't work, it is totally disfunctional, offering too much effect, for so short a time that it isn't useful, and so infrequently that it cannot be accepted as a useful defense mechanism.

Because totally removing the relation between Spawning Power and their primary influence is too durastic, Spawning power shouldn't be changed, and nor should the general function of damage taken by the spirit in lieu of protection provided. Instead, the amount of damage taken should be reduced, along with the amount of protection provided, and the frequency and cost are to be improved. This is what I came up with.

Displacement should be 10 energy, 30 second recharge. lvl 1-10, 25% chance to block, takes 40 damage per activation (maybe less considering aegis new cost), 10-35 second duration.

Shelter should be 15 energy, 30 second recharge. lvl 1-10, prevents health lose over 15%, takes 30 damage per activation, 10-35 second duration.

Union should be 10 energy, 30 second recharge. lvl 1-10, reduces damage by 10, takes 10 damage per activation, 10-35 second duration.

With these alterations, the general functions of Binding Ritual Defense still apply, and their relation with Spawning Power still works the same as well. The duration and frequency allow it to be retained and replaced at a semicontinous rate, ensuring that the ritualists defensive measures are contributing consistently, and with abilities like Ritual Lord, they can be spamed for a near costant rate. And the defensive effect is reduced, so this continous defense is not effective enough to totally overcome an onslaught or heavy spike, it is only enough to slow down the damage taken, ensuring that continous use is not so powerful that it ensures survival, and offering defensive Ritualist builds the role of preasure reduction, which still relies on healing or additional protection in order to maintain a defense.

There are only a few builds which would be significantly impacted by this defense, and most coordinated offenses would not be deflected by this subtle defense. But the slight reduction in damage taken over a large group adds up to a generous effect over all, and offers the very useful effect of slowing down the battle for healers and Monks to save their foes from an assault. Builds that would find this most determental to face would be Assassins, which already heavily rely on Unblockable abilities in order to ensure the reliability of their combos. And mass compound damagers who stacks several small attacks to make a powerful dent, things like Conjure Flame and Ignight Arrows along with Dual Shot would feel this since Union would shave off a small amount of damage from any number of small attacks landed, and offenses which rely on several minions and pets would also feel the reduction in damage. Last and Least, Nukers, who would feel the reduced value of Shelter which would block out more of their Max Damage Nukes, wile effecting less of the medium attacks, this allows more damage in, but ensures longer term reduction of particularly powerful attacks instead of medium power attacks and spells.

By redeveloping these skills with the function they should have had all along, we get an effective preasure countering build which is effective for reducing small amounts of damage over a long period of time on a large group in a stationary but large location. The cost, survival, duration and frequency all allow them to be used repeatedly and sustained regularly so Ritualist will have a useful impact on the team throught the battle instead of momentarily and rarely. The whole concept of brief defensive respit is a joke, becuase offenses are designed to overcome defensive measures, and a defense which doesn't last, doesn't save anyones life. Momentary + Strong + Rare is worthless, Lasting + Subtle + Frequent is powerful.

And because spirits are directly vulnerable to any source of damage, very weak, often vulnerable to AoE effects, and stationary, their are already significant weaknesses in place to make these reasonable. And also, with a lapsing duration and recharge, and the ability to use it twice as much with Ritual Lord, the utilization of Dual Ritualist will not be an issue. One will be more than enough, and multiple Ritualist sustaining subtle defensive effects will not save allies from dying. They will have to coordinate with strong focused protection and healing in order to ensure the survival of their allies.--BahamutKaiser 23:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Im really suprised Paragons havnt fallen to the same fate as ritualists, especially since paragons have quite a few skills that cant be removed (and from what I can tell, have a very similar role to the old rit lord, except paragons can even do a lot of damage), where as ritualists have spirits, that after this last update are extremely vulnerable. Id really like to see the old problem spirits brought to their original set of values, just to see how the meta would be affected and whether or not they are balanced, or at least some kinda change to spirits, as of now, they are a complete waste unless using a N/Rt, and thats just cuz soul reaping is broken (and yet is left untouched, yet spirits were kinda nerfed :/) and the other fact being spawning power pretty much has veyr little effect on a ritualist, other than a few good skills in that line.--Quicksilver Switch-Blade 05:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

At this point they could revert to the original spirit values and bring back ritualist turtling, they were never that great, just misunderstood, and now that AoE domination abilities like SF exist, an Elementist could blow away a whole flock of spirits and the people around them for turtling as well.

But what we really need is balanced moderate defensive alterations to offer low effect and high involvement.--BahamutKaiser 20:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Union, Shelter & Displacement are officially dead since the last update. :\ 24 October 2007

I've updated the table based on today's update. -- Gordon Ecker 02:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've also updated the spirit stats to take the spirit Health nerf into account. -- Gordon Ecker 02:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to know what Ritualists are supposed to do. They don't seem to have any obvious niche. -- Gordon Ecker 07:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I updated the table again. -- Gordon Ecker 03:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Updated again, Rejuvenation is actually useful now. -- Gordon Ecker 01:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Updated again. -- Gordon Ecker 00:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)