Feedback talk:User/Qaletaqa/Elite Areas

Discuss. Qaletaqa Hania 21:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

"Funny thing"

→ moved from Feedback talk:Linsey Murdock

The point of the nerfs is so casual players (or any players) can't speed clear an elite area in 7 minutes. Elite areas are supposed to take a long time to complete.

They don't nerf popular things because they're popular. Things become popular because they stay overpowered for three years, and they become the only thing anyone ever runs (see ursan, shadow form, most pve skills). ~Shard 20:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Nobody likes this state of the game. The elite areas - once the absolute highlights of the game - are now inaccessible to most professions, and even if you have the right profession you are stuffed into a role that should not even be in the game. Please, do something to take the game out of this state. Koda Kumi 21:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

@Shard: The fact that The Deep, Urgoz, and FoWsc aren't nerfed and are able to be completed in 12-17 minutes shows that only popular stuff gets nerfed. Or are those kind of times acceptable? Qaletaqa Hania 21:07, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ok i am just going to say this and i already know i will get crucified for saying it and that is ursan didn't need as big of a nerf as it got because at least with ursan people were able to get into a party and do stuff like doa... even if it was the only thing you could play.- Zesbeer 21:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually Zesbeer, I agree with you and I will add something, Ursan made DoA accessible to casual players. Qaletaqa Hania 21:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

If you think Anet nerfs popular things because they're popular, you have no understanding of anything they do. They may nerf stuff 8 months to 3 years late, but they try to fix things eventually. Expectantly, the things higher on their list of priorities just happen to be most popular (for the same reasons). ~Shard 21:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

When ecto prices were slipping ever-so-slowly into the low 4k range, I'm pretty sure that's about the point when ANet decided it really needed to figure something out. Luckily, instead of just adding some new monsters with some pretty retarded and mechanic-breaking skills, they added those same monsters but used in-game lore to explain it. Because, you know, changing PBAoE AI slightly or adding something like Well of the Profane to those Pits mobs would've just been a huge pain in the ass. =/ ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) "For example if an Ambrace was 45e before, they still are now." Then the players that are still paying those prices, are idiots. The value of something is ALWAYS going to be based on how much someone can sell it for. It's very possible that a lot of the people who have 45e just laying around gathering dust and are available to purchase an armbrace, don't even realize the value of ectos has changed in the past 2 weeks. If you see someone selling stuff at the old prices, argue with it.... publicly... with your reasoned explanation that you were able to purchase one with 45e when ectoes were worth 4k, so now that they are 5k, the item is worth 36e. As long as people are willing to pay the inflated price, that's how much they will sell for. -- Wyn talk 21:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me sum up the points I was trying to make:

• Casual gamers would have to play a long long frigin time to get that "awesome weaponskin" they are after.
• Casual gamers aren't really able to find a party to do those Elite areas unless they are in a big and good guild full of helpful people.
• Anet isn't beeing consistent, they get rid off one speed clear but let others exist?

The UWsc nerf just made things worse for casual gamers. If you say that it isn't true then you are not a casual gamer.

@Wynthyst: I would have to argue with tons and tons of people everytime I go online, so when will I be able to play the game? Qaletaqa Hania 21:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

@Wynthyst: Another thing, how are casual gamers supposed to compete with the rich players who are able and willing to pay that price? Qaletaqa Hania 21:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Casual gamers don't compete with rich players or go after pew pew weapon skins because they are casual gamers. Stop confusing yourself. ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention, we're talking about a game that's way past its prime. The fact that you can't find parties would be an issue to bring up about the hero limit, probably. You would never H/H DoA or UW HM anyway. ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Danny is right. A casual player is not going to waste hours grinding over and over to get FoW armor; a casual player is going to play to have fun. Obsessive grinders are the ones being hurt by the nerf to UWSC, especially those who did 20 hours per day of farming, and that's far from meaning casual players.

Always, after a nerf to a farming mode, grinders come here complain. It's also always funny to see the excuses they come up with when trying to justify why lessening the grind from the game (yes, lessening, since if it were not for the grinders with 1000000 ectos the armbracers and everything else wouldn't be so expensive) would be bad for casual players. Erasculio 22:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Wait....does it make me bad that I paid 80e for 2 arms after the ecto prices skyrocketed? Because...I already knew I was bad. Karate Jesus 22:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm only saying that the economy isn't going to change overnight, and that prices will not fall on items as long as there are people willing to pay those inflated prices for things. If people (not just you) don't argue for the readjustment of prices, it will not happen. For example, when gas was $4/gal here in the states, many companies that at one time had "free delivery" added delivery charges to their prices. Well, now that gas has gone back down, none of these companies (or few at any rate) have removed those delivery charges, because people are still willing to pay them. When I started playing, ectos were worth 10k each, so imo, they are still a bargain now. While I am not in any way a casual player of Guild Wars, I'm sorry that that those who are are having these difficulties in the game. However, the answer is not, and never has been, giving them something fool proof. If you really want to talk about Ursan, and DOA, DOA was not only pugable, but popularly pugged prior to the release of EotN and the introduction or UB. True, someone who only had an hour to play, was not going to be able to do much, but that should be true of any elite area. Now, if you don't have the latest gimmick build to clear something in under 30 minutes, you can NOT find a group, outside of guild/alliance. As far as only nerfing UWSC, and leaving the others, one step at a time..... if it's taken this long to get the changes worked out and programmed in for the UW, you can't hardly expect them to do all the others in a week. BTW... there is always the wiki community to come to if you are looking for people who wish to do elite areas. You should try asking here sometime (on your talk page with a clear edit summary....) you might be surprised. -- Wyn talk 22:08, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

@Erasculio and Danny: I know a casual player isn't gonna grind for hours and hours, but I bet they would like to have FoW armor or those pew pew weaponskins, everyone wants them not just the "i'm addicted to GW" type of players. Qaletaqa Hania 22:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I bought 2 armbraces last week at ridiculous prices and I only play once-twice a week for 2 hours at a time, max. So...what exactly is your point? Karate Jesus 22:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

@KJ: You expect me to believe that? Go try and fool someone else. The only way you would be able to do that is either be a power trader or farm those 2 hours once or twice a week. Anyway tell me your secret and i'll test it then. Qaletaqa Hania 22:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not joking. Ask my guild. I just do a dungeon or HA or something every once in a while. Tbh, I got the 80e from selling stacks of ToT bags. I farmed the skellies for around 2 hours a day for a few days and got my Paragon r3 survivor (and a lot of money). Didn't take much effort /shrug. Karate Jesus 22:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Qaletaqa - I play an average of 0 hours a week, yet I have over 400 ecto/zkeys and 500k sitting in my bank. Even back when I did play the game, I didn't speed clear (as such a thing wasn't around back then), nor did I spend hours out farming shit. Is it really so unbelievable that a person who plays 2 hours every few days has enough to buy two armbraces? -Auron 22:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Guys, you’re going off the point of this discussion,Qaletaqa, what Danny raised was valid, sure casual players may want Obsidian Armour and flashy weapons, but they’re not going to have them handed on a plate, it would defeat the prestige of it. Now if you want something, put in the time and effort to acquire it, if you play for fun, the armour is the same stats, just a different make up of pixels, so get a cheaper alternate look of armour or weapon and hey! You’re ready to have some fun! Frozenwind 22:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

You may want all the flashy stuff for two reasons: because you like how it looks, or because you like the "prestige" that comes with it (see all the warriors in FoW armor dyed black and Chaos Gloves). A casual player may enjoy how it looks, but they are as likely to enjoy how those items look as any other; and if they are seeking the "prestige", making those items common so casual players may have them would defeat that purpose.

It's enough that no armor or weapon has better stats. Having some items left out of the grasp of the majority is, unfortunately, part of any game of this kind. Erasculio 22:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The pew-pew-pew weapon skins and super-special-awesome armor exist to reward the hard core players, 15k exists to reward the dedicated, bottom line. — Jon Lupen 22:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel that obs armor looks shitty anyway, monks look like egyptians, then the rest are so unbalanced and/or non-descript that they are just bad looking versions of existing armor. Pika Fan 22:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Ele and rit are trump (rit mostly because of the teapot helmet). -Auron 22:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

"it would defeat the prestige of it." i lol'ed any how get back on topic which is to say that cookie cutter builds/ builds that are forced on you should not be the meta for elite areas imho.- Zesbeer 22:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Seconded. — Jon Lupen 23:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I can clear Urgoz in under 30 minutes with GvG Balanced. Your point is invalid. ··· Danny Pew Pew 23:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Brb, winning Urgoz. King Neoterikos 00:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Zesbeer, I don't think you understand what meta means. It isn't something ANet tells us to run, it's the build the players run because it works faster than all the other builds. You aren't required to run them to clear the area (see Danny's example, and SMS never used a standard build for hardmode clearing), but when you're speed clearing, there is one definite "best" build, and that is why it's meta. -Auron 10:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You are 'required' to run certain builds because you do not get in a non-guild group without them, and even most guilds cling to meta builds because they have no clue about 'balanced' builds so they use the only thing that certainly wins. A bad state the game is in. Koda Kumi 11:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Depends of your objective, actually. UWSC isn't about playing in the Underworld; it's about farming the Underworld, and for that people will always seek the fastest, most effective way. Doesn't really matter if PvE is almost perfectly balanced so one all builds take 20 minutes to clear the UW and one takes 19 minutes; people would still choose the 19 minutes build because they are only worried about farming, and thus with going as fast as possible.

In other words, there will always be a requirement when trying to farm. We won't ever have a perfect balance in which one build isn't even slightly better than the alternatives, and people will flock to said build even if it's extremely elitist or boring or whatever.

This is something Arena Net could have lessened by making slightly random spawns (like we see in the Dajkah Inlet Challenge Mission - which kind of enemy you face in any given area rotates between a few options), but now it's likely too late. The rest of the problem lies entirely on the players. Erasculio 11:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not talking about UWSC. I am talking about getting into a group and going into the elite area of our choice. Just try to get a group for UW on 'hard mode' that is not a speed clear. Either you cannot get a group at all or you get a bunch of people who barely know how to control their character. Koda Kumi 12:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I am very curious about your ideas to make terrible people not terrible through ArenaNet's intervention. Misery 12:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ironic comment, Koda. The easiest way to play with those players is by asking them to use gimmick builds so overpowered that even them being bad isn't enough to make the team fail - in other words, meta builds. Hence why players use and demand things like Shadow Form.

Incidentally, there are not enough people interested in playing on the Underworld other than to farm. I know I wouldn't enjoy playing there on Hard Mode myself; nerfing UWSC or whatever meta build would not solve this problem, nor would increasing the reward given by completing the Underworld (given how that would only make people do more UWSC). Either the area isn't fun enough, or most players have already been there and played enough of it. Erasculio 12:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Or 'Hard Mode' and DoA are so terribly thought out that the only way most people can win elite areas on HM is through those gimmick builds. More and more people leave because they realize that GW's endgame has nothing to do with the game itself. It is a complete joke, and Anet does not care. Also, nobody 'demands' things like SF. Nobody even wants it in the game. Koda Kumi 13:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey let's run sinsplit in elite areas! Owait, people already run that. Pika Fan 13:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Uh, "nobody even wants it in the game"? Every single big discussion about Shadow Form disagrees (example). Players demand to have a SF player in their group or they won't enter many "elite" areas; and that's something the players demand, not Arena Net. What they could (and should, IMO) have done would have been nerfing SF, but something else (hopefully "less bad") would have taken its place anyway.

And again, it's not a matter of people only being able to play on HM with those gimmicks; rather that those gimmicks are the most effective way to farm, and that's what those players want to do. If you removed HM from the game...People would still use the same gimmicks to farm, because they would still be the most effective way of farming.

The problem regarding gimmicks isn't GW's "end game" (although it helps), or the lack of skill balance (although it helps, too), at least not in PvE; the players you're talking about are simply interested in farming, not in playing the game, so they will always demand people to use the most effective build. Erasculio 17:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr

People are surprisingly bad and run meta builds because they work and they can't think of any other way to clear the area. With patience, tactics, and some creativity, you could clear UW with 8 of any class. Erasculio's last comment, Auron's comment, and Misery's comment are probably the best summations of what is going on. ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

People have ticking clock on their head going "GW-Two, GW-Two", so they want everything as soon as possible, and to get things as soon as possible you use the fastest possible combination. But, you know, there are PLENTY of ways to make any combination irrelevant to time, like in the Gyala Hatchery mission. No matter how fast you are or how good you team is, you speed is limited to the speed of the Turtles, there are other examples like Thunderhead Keep. Thunderhead Keep is one of the most enjoyed missions. Not to hard, not to easy, and difficulty more based in tactics than in builds. So, after the point in which you can safely make the mission, you don't need to get any more gimmicks. That's the way to go. Make impossible to take more than one mission at the same time, make doors close and wait for NPCs to go to places. Even if players manage to be like a burning fire that consumes hostile NPCs at amazing speed, they'll have to wait when there is a firebreak. People solo an entire area that is not meant to be soloable? Then just ad levers that players must activate, so at least 2 or 4 players must enter to complete it. There are LOTS and LOTS of ways to prevent an area from becoming a overfarmed farming nest. All you have to do is think a little. MithTalk 22:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I vote we use the Final Fantasy 7 button challenge. Everyone should remember it. It's early on in the game - you're with Barrett and Tifa and you've got to press a button at the same time they do in order to open a door. Make 2 players pull different levers to open a door that only stays open long enough for one person to get through, but which can be opened with a single lever from the other side. No, I don't have any remote idea of where you could apply this, but it'd certainly be an interesting solution. ··· Danny Pew Pew 23:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

...Not quite sure why you had to go all the way back to ff7 just for that example... --ilr 23:24, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

More than 1 person, etc. Not to mention, I haven't seen Pre-searing since about 2007, so I've forgotten a few things. ··· Danny Pew Pew 23:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

@Qaletaqa, the recent nerf to UWSC and the lack of nerfs to FoWSC, DoASC, Urgoz SC, and the Deep SC will have absolutely no effect on casaul playing. Casual players do not go to those areas to farm, but to casually, and LEGITIMATELY play them. Sure, the point of playing those areas is to get those high-end drops (ectos, ob shards, celestial bows, etc) so that you don't have to buy them from farmers, and so that you can eventually get those prestige items. They are prestigious BECAUSE they take a long long time to get. But, seriously, these days, the prestige is completely taken out. When you see somebody that has chaos gloves or FoW armor, it is safe to assume that they SC farmed or they bought the materials from farmers; prestige not earned is not prestige at all. So, if your objective is to get yourself some FoW armor or chaos gloves by actually playing through the UW or FoW multiple times then good for you, and your playstyle will not be affected. You will still be able to play through completely, get random drops, and get the end chest reward to eventually have the needed mats to craft them, and you will be able to have the satisfaction of earning them. But, if your objective is to get those prestige items as fast as possible by SC farming or relying on other SC farmers to sell the items you need to you, then yes, you've been affected, but in an effort to keep prestigious items prestigious; its SUPPOSED to take a long time. Go ahead and work for it, take a long time, and enjoy the ride, that's what casual playing is all about.

Now, your second point is the larger issue, imo. "Casual gamers aren't really able to find a party to do those Elite areas unless they are in a big and good guild full of helpful people." You are 100% correct there. You simply CANNOT PUG an elite area anymore unless you are running the current META builds. If you are an assassin, you WILL be dropped unless you are running SF. So you are either not accepted because of your profession, or you are forced to run a build you don't want to run. Putting the Skeletons of Dhuum in the UW was a step in the right direction. The current META SC builds don't work there anymore, and I've seen many more PUGs going there now. I would like to see SC runs in all elite areas shut down in a similar way. The skeles shut down SC runs, but still allow for a well-formed party to be successful in the area. --MushaTalk 03:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

@Auron, i know what meta means. also the second part of what musha said.- Zesbeer 04:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Musha, IMO you're wrong. You are stating two conflicting points:

• "Casual players do not go to those areas to farm, but to casually, and LEGITIMATELY play them."
• "I would like to see SC runs in all elite areas shut down in a similar way."

If you shut SC runs down...It would make no difference to casual players. You would prevent players who want to farm (and not legitimately play) from doing speed runs, so they would either farm the Underworld in some other way (such as the old 55hp build) or just go farm somewhere else. Those players, which currently are the far majority of those standing in the Temple of Ages, are not going to suddenly give up on farming and decide to play legitimately in the UW with PUGs if SC is removed.

What Arena Net could have done was allowing more people to see the Underworld and maybe become interested in actually playing there, which they did with the Halloween quests. Maybe they could have split players in a farming district and a playing district so the few players who want to really play are not scattered among 10 districts of farmers, but then again the playing disctrict would be so empty that everyone would just try to find PUGs in the farming districtis. Erasculio 10:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Shutting UWSC runs down was a step to the right direction. FoW, Deep, Urgoz, DoA are unaffected. --Boro 15:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

True it's a step in the right direction but they still have alot of work to do, and I hope they will take care of the other areas to, I don't care if it's taking down SC runs and making areas more accessible to more professions. The best would be to change the monsters and make them so that each profession has a role in defeating them, adding more or change builds on them, whatever it takes. It would be alot of work but I think it would be worth it if they do it right. Qaletaqa Hania 20:27, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is (28,838 bytes) PLEASE stop bloating Linsey's page. Qaletaqa, if you have a suggestion to make to the Live Team to make any of this better, make a suggestion in the appropriate feedback area, and then all of you can carry on your discussion there. As it is, this type of discussion is going to force the locking of Linsey's page once again. Why don't you all see that? I would so love to move this to Qaletaqa's talk page, but due to licensing I can't. -- Wyn talk 21:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Wynn I made a suggestion page for it. So if you wann move it to the talk page. Sry that it turned into such a big discussion, was not my intention to do so. Qaletaqa Hania 21:36, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

@Erasculio, it DOES affect casual players when in 99% of the times you want to get in a team to play in the area you receive a "GTFO, make a <profession>". Have you ever seen Elona Reach in a ZQuest day? Yes, you may be able to find a team, and play, and do it, but unlike the others missions, in this one it will take AGES to find one. Why? Because most people won't wait for a team and pay the rusher. It's like making a big hole at the bottom of a clepsydra, when the players should pour in, form parties, and play, they instead 'leak' through the hole made by the rusher, and so there is never enough players to form a team. When I got the Legandary Guardian title, I had no choice. I asked guildies, the answer was "just pay a runner", I asked in the area, the result was a party of 3 players for almost 50 minutes, players that joined, waited 15 minutes, and left for a runner team, and finally had to pay the runner too, because I'd rather have it done and leave to play somewhere else, than standing still without playing. I see no reason why it should be like that. MithTalk 12:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

99% of the people playing this game are terrible at it, so they choose to let someone with godmode do missions for them so they can stare at their titles they got for being bad. Koda Kumi 23:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, all the frakking party dying on me is a different matter. It gets tiresome sometimes. But when there is no god mode sooner or later you get into a party that knows what they are doing. That's how I could finally get Eternal Grove HM Masters. But if there is a godmode, most people won't even try other ways, that how they get so bad. MithTalk 16:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

you're overthinking things. a casual player shouldn't be able to get end game weapons and stuff. THEY'RE ENDGAME. thats the right way. but, they can. you just cant because you suck.88.251.166.99 03:42, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

my bad didnt look for the dates.88.251.166.99 03:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm a casual gamer

And yet I posses enough skill to do UW or DoA like it was always meant to be done. Anything worth having takes time and a bit of work to get. People need to get over this "Everything should be easier for the plebs" kick.-- anguard 16:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Look, everyone should get the chance to play those elite areas and finish them, that's my thought about it. I think about every player, the less skilled and the more skilled ones, if they would make 3 difficulties for elite areas then they should make the easiest mode easy enough so that anyone would be able to finish it and the hard mode harder so that the "elite" players have a challenge.

The easier difficulties could also be a stepping stone for less skilled players, they could start with the easiest difficulty and go up once they feel like they would be able to handle it. This would also attract more players to the elite areas, giving the balanced parties a bigger chance to be formed.

Read the whole damn suggestion. Qaletaqa Hania 17:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I did, and basically just saw this.-- anguard 17:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Totally different then what I have in mind, I'm still working on giving a better explanation but that's hard for me to do because for me that's translating my weird thought process to "normal" people so they can understand what i'm aiming at.

Everytime I get a comment, I try and adjust it untill I can see people understand what I'm aiming at, and so far it's not working but i'll keep trying. I'm already thinking of making drawings, plans, etc... so that playing in each mode would be different and interesting for both the "noobs" and "elite" players. What I wanna see is Elite players having fun in each mode and make noobs wanna have that urge to finish the elite areas in HM. Maybe also give the veterans a reward for taking noobs with them etc...

I could talk about it more but that would just get boring for you :). Qaletaqa Hania 17:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The only real part of this suggestion worth visiting is the part that talks about making the end-game content more accessible to everyone, particularly those who aren't super-elite players. This overall is an issue with the game. Even the last third of Nightfall and half of EotN have the same issue as a lot of the other end game content. The general trend, sadly, has been to make things tougher. Ie, look at the MOX quests. And what we're expecting for the The Waiting Game quest. It's pushing me away from the game. --Emkyooess 18:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)