User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Izzy Talk Archive 17

PvE vs PvP article

Sense it seems like a lot of people are posting about this I'll clear a few things up real quick.

1. I did this article few months ago back when we didn't know if we where gonna do the PvE PvP split.
2. I think a lot of people are missing my point with this statement " PvE players tend to want extremely overpowered things and feel epic while killing lots of things." I'm not saying that PvE players don't want a challenge, I'm saying they want to be powerful, feel epic, and overcome challenges, shooting out a fireball that kills 1 rat, vs a fireball that kills a cave full of trolls has two very different feels. I also never liked the term "PvE player" as so many different people enjoy different things both casual and hardcore, it's just always been my impression that going on an adventure to slay a dragon feels way cooler then going on an adventure to clear rats from a farmers house. Yet mechanically they are the same thing. In any case sorry if I came across offensive, was just trying to explain some of the challenges in designing a single game for multiple people with multiple goals for their playing experience. Izzy @-'---- 00:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

One thing there Izzy, Farmers want over powered skills and there really are not that many as people think there are. PvE players want a challenge but it has to be fun at the same time. They don't want skills that are next to useless and hopefully the split will start helping with that. Nor do PvE players want skills that are insta kill or close to it in challenging areas. The people stating PvE players want over powered skills don't know a thing about PvE as skills need to function differently there than in PvP because the challeneges are completely different. A skill can be over powered in PvP yet only decent, at best, in PvE and the same is true in reverse. ~ Sabastian 00:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I totally agree, like I was saying people want to "Play" a game, insta killing gets old real quick, which is where my wording of "overpowered" wasn't the best choice of words I was really just trying to say powerful, in the sense of thematics. Like going on an adventure as a great warrior is way more interesting then going on an adventure as the local cow. (sure being the local cow would be very amusing for a short period of time :P). Izzy @-'---- 00:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Or being a cat running around town in a power suit spanking naughty kittens that terrorise the town and then putting them into a bubble and feeding them to the suit to power it.... oddly fun Japanese games. ^_^' I must admit though, I am curious as to what changes are instore for buffing more of the skills and professions for PvE. Maybe even smiting will see the light of day along with Rit spirits and Blood Magic and Curses other than Spiteful Spirits. However, it is understandable it'll take time to implement the changes so that older players can learn to adjust to it. I also hope this brings up the reevaluation of all the skills in both PvP and PvE as many of them need to change. Thank you and the rest at ArenaNet for finally implementing this so both PvP and PvE can have a wider verity of skills availbe for use. ~ Sabastian 01:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading about that on GWGuru forums, pointed out the logical fallacy of generalizing "PvE people like overpowered things." Generalizing is bad.- Vanguard 00:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure but the point of the artical was to talk about the differences of balance a game with multiple player communities, so it's hard to not generalize in order to explain the differences between the two, I mean there are like 5+ different pvp types (GvG, HA, TA, RA, AB) and tons of PvE Types (Title Grind, Farming, Hard Mode, Missions, Skill Hunting, Vanq Runs, Story Line, Pug Play, Elite Missions, and much more) in that discussion we are generalizing and grouping those players into "PvE" bucket, and "PvP" Bucket the whole point of the article was to try and explain everyone in these different game types have different needs and it's hard to please one group without upsetting the other. This is true inside the groups as well as between the groups. Izzy @-'---- 00:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Also a super good example of this is how the word "overpowered" is a big insult to one group, while a large amount of people are like "Thats not insulting" people don't just have different needs, they have different styles, different outlooks on what a game should be. It's our job to juggle those needs and it's really hard to to make anyone happy without hurting the rest. Izzy @-'---- 00:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) ::::Fair enough, I for one support the seperation, even though I'm the kind of person who uses the same build in all modes regardless >_> (the changes just aren't drastic enough)- Vanguard 00:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It's more about trying to give us to the tools to make more players happy, that being said tools only create opportunities for us, we have to take advantage of those tools, and thats going to take time. Izzy @-'---- 01:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Alls I can hope is that GW2 PvE isn't similar to Everquest 2, WoW, ect in that you simply keep training up your skill's stats to beat bigger monsters. In GW PvE, the interesting part was encountering areas where you couldn't use the same handful of builds that the majority of PvE could be cleared with. The fun was in build making. It seemed that Ursan's Blessing and Consumable items introduced in EoTN made it feel like PvE power creep was okie dokie. :( --Redfeather 01:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I can't talk about GW2 but our goal is to create an interesting experience for all types of players. Izzy @-'---- 01:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well with the split and some time to further implement it, they can slowly weed out Ursan Blessing as they make more and more skills and professions useable in PvE. ~ Sabastian 01:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this isn't the place to say, but maybe to encourage build making, GW or GW2 could have a Monster Manual that shows an enemies strengths and weaknesses after you kill that type of monster. Then monster's can be given a lot of variety in strengths/weaknesses without players feeling overwhelmed on how to tackle them. The book would help kickstart what build directions to explore. --Redfeather 02:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

WTB ursan nerf. Seriously, 1 skill shouldnt be more powerful than all others. Balance among the skill spectrum and having a number of viable choices is a good thing even in pve. Think of it terms of an overpowered gimmick build in pvp that everyone uses and isnt fun to play, but its clearly so powerful you'd be crazy not to run it. Non profession specific skills are just bad, gw has a good selection of profs that each bring somthing to the table. limit it to norn areas only, it shouldnt have been allowed out of that one quest. Variety is the key for interesting and dynamic play, not one mindless 1-2-3 skill. --

The idea of making proffessions viable, then nerfing Ursan is the best one there for making PvE fun again. Make all classes usable in all areas in the hands of players who know what they're doing- and I mean truly usable, not stand there with a million enchants on you while eles (or mesmer now) nuke usable. Get that feeling of chaos back into combat in all areas- including elite ones. Then nerf Ursan. --Kalas Silvern 09:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

92.235.8.13 03:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Skill balance is not the most significant hurdle to making PVE fun. But it is the easiest way to do "something" about it. I've honestly never felt epic doing anything in PVE. (Los Manos) 04:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about you guys but I would have to say that this is one of the best things Izzy has EVER okayed. Done25 19:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[Quote Izzy] “our goal is to create an interesting experience for all types of players” [/Quote Izzy] Unfortunately if that is ANets goal for GW2 you guys are bound to fail! Its NOT possible to please everyone! You yourself said that just couple paragraphs above. Lately ANets answer to PvE enhancements where “add title XYZ with a maximum level so high it can never be reached” which seems to be ANets single view on PvE players… they want to max titles! And here is where you already fail! Since did it ever occur to you ANet guys that there might be way more PvE players that would favour a new quest line like the “Moa Quest” over farming some more monsters/party item/faction points just to max out some title? Where is ANet catering to that type of player? And don’t give me the BMP since they way ANet handled that was an utter failure and if you’re a honest you’ll admit that to yourselves too. Judging from what’s going on in our once crowding alliance NOW would be the time for another fissure type update to keep the “NOT interested in title maxing” players play GW. Since form my POV you are fast loosing numbers on that kind of long time GW players. Regards ~Garbaron~; 26 Mai 2008

I think a good example of an "overpowered" mechanic in PvE that doesn't work in PvP is the minion cap. I miss the days of tearing through low level mobs with an army of 30 minions. It didn't work for PvP, of course. Minion Factories were never that successful anyway. The "balance" of feeling all-powerful as a MM in PvE was that a single AoE fire spell could wipe your entire army. It would be nice if those sort of "hyperbolic" PvE balances existed throughout the game, so that the player could feel that sense of power, but also have to be cautious. Mechanics such as minions, or AoE spells, or bonding should have mechanics that, in PvE, can turn you into an unstoppable killing machine, but can be easily lost if you aren't paying attention. The necessary mechanics simply aren't there right now, though. You see glimpses of it, in things like AI scatter from AoE, but contemporary PvE isn't as fun as a Prophecies-era slaughterhouse, because it still stinks of being balanced like a monster-PvP match, not a PvE experience. --Reklaw 09:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I have that sensation, I get it from combining tactics and normal builds, instead of just rampaging through everything with Ursan. 145.94.74.23 09:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at these ideas

I've made a list of skill change ideas. All of my ideas are in one place. If you wouldn't mind taking a look at commenting, considering them, that'd be awesome! Anyone else who wants to comment, I don't mind at all. My take on skill balance --TimeToGetIntense 22:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I replied to some, didn't have a bunch of time so I couldn't get to them all. Izzy @-'---- 00:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking it out. --TimeToGetIntense 01:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop changing assassin's remedy

Assassin's Remedy is not good because of its recharge. Assassin's Remedy is not good because of its cast time. Assassin's Remedy is not good because of its duration. It is good because it triggers before the attacks hit, thus making its user immune to blind and weakness. It should remove conditions AFTER an attack successfully hits. I can't believe you haven't figured this out yet, it's been right in front of your face for a very, very long time. The thing that gets me is that you even told the world you knew what the problem was a few updates ago, and were still clueless as to how to fix it.

I hope the above clue wasn't too blatantly obvious for you to find. I like giving people subtle solutions to major in-your-face problems. ~Shard (talk) 03:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

<3 you do realize thats the point of this skill right? If it doesn't trigger before the attack (like it did for a long time there) it will be unused. The reason I hit the casting cost is to force a larger upfront cost for a spike build but still allow it to be used in other builds. I'm not going to put the functionality back and make it an unused skill again. :P

Anyway overstating your opinion in a dramatic way and trying to spell out a solution that you feel is right in a way that makes other solutions look "obvious" is not always the best way to prove your point, it can often point out huge flaws in your logic and then your statement ends up being a bit over the top and easily overlooked. Anyway thanks for the feedback :) Izzy @-'---- 06:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The skill is broken. It passively makes the Assassin immune to blind. How about something like this:

5e/0.75c/10r - Skill. You lose 0...3 conditions and gain 40...120...140 health. This skill must follow a dual attack. --TimeToGetIntense 17:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, heal would be nice... post dual, not so much, at least in my opinion. Maybe remove a condition for conditions on the target on attack skill? That way, you can still deal with blind, but only by actively applying a condition to your opponent. It weakens it dramatically without destroying it's purpose. Have duration, number of skills, and max # removed as the variables --Kalas Silvern 09:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologize if I was arrogant in my post izzy, but I was assuming that you don't want assassins to have passive immunity to half of their drawbacks, in addition to already having shadow stepping to negate the other half. Maybe that was too much of an assumption. Regardless, you already stated that the problem was the removal before the hit, so I made another assumption that it was a problem you cared about. Again, maybe I was assuming too much. I'd rather see this skill dead (or at least weak) rather than having Melandru Assassins running around.

If you really want it to remove on misses, make it more like Spear of Redemption, where it removes the condition after the hit/miss. At least that way sins will have to miss with one attack while blind. ~Shard (talk) 07:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ursan blessing

It seems that you are finnaly back at this page,responding to a bounch of questions ect,so i would love to hear what you have to say about this game breaking skill (:

you can have 6 players with (ONE) skill in your bar and complete almost every area in the game. this pvp pve split change didnt change a thing. the only thing it changed for were pretty much farmers due to the shadow form buff.

Please,nerf this fckn skill. pve isnt fun anymore. it really isnt. one skill isnt supposed to beat every single build . it rlly isnt.Oni 10:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If Ursan is making PVE not fun for you anymore the simpe answer is dont play ursan in PVE, Play some normal builds you DONT have to play it, many people play it generally because its easier, or they are lazy, if it isnt making PVE fun for you, dont play it, or start teams of ur own and advertise NO ursan or something --Wild 11:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact is, every single PuG uses the damned skill named Ursan Blessing. If you want to roll a balanced group, you need a good PvE alliance, which aint easy to find. --Vipermagi 11:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Im pretty sure not EVERY single PuG uses Ursan, considering the amount of people who are QQing on here and GWguru, maybe they could all start a NON ursan alliance? --Wild 11:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Im sorry,but that argument really doesnt work. i went to ToA several times today. what did i find?

1) TONS of ursan teams 2) One poor SS necro who wanted to team with a 55hp monk 3) One poor newb who wanted to join a team,apparently he didnt even know what UB was,and noone would let him play in any group.

Im in a pvp guild,and im pretty damn lucky being in it since the leader is my friend. Its a rank8 guild and im only rank6. We HA daily,got many friends in it ect.

Are you saying i have to leave it just because i cant run a team without this single skill?

And hell,lets ignore all those problems.

ursan is a SINGLE SKILL that DOMINATES pve. it SHOULD-NOT-EXIST-MEEPO.Oni 13:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You guys and gals do realize they just started the PvE and PvP split and are taking it slowly to allow the players time to adjust and further test things out, right? So that means it'll take time for them to continue to balance skills for PvP and skills for PvE. Once they have more skills useable for PvE and making it so the unwanted professions can get a team on their own accord they will start nerfing some of the PvE skills. Whining here already just because you don't have the change you want right now just sounds like a little kid screaming for something since it shows a lack of patience. So take a deep breath, sit back for about three months, and see what changes are instore from this split. It may surprise people or may flop, it'll take time to tell. ~ Sabastian 17:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

We've already been waiting for over a year for this to be nerfed, and we have all been saying the same thing for that entire time. I think reverting pve skills to what they were eon's ago was silly since everyone has already found other ways to use those skills, or others. There is a single skill which is predominant in all elite pve areas that needs to be dealt with NOW, not in 3 months. I will agree that non ursan pugs are no where in sight in any of the elite areas. I used to play with pugs a lot in DOA, not because I don't have a strong PvE guild/alliance (which I do), but because I enjoyed connecting with other quality PvE players who enjoyed the challenge of the elite areas, making new friends, and on some occasions finding cool people for my guild. Now, that opportunity is gone, as I won't invite Ursan players to my guild, as we don't do Ursan anything on a group basis.-- Wynthyst 17:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I would've loved to enjoy that experience of high end elite areas, but there was one small problem. I played a sin/derv/mes, and prior to Ursan, they weren't favored in high end areas. Actually, that was underexagerated- they were BARRED from those areas due to the lack of consideration for anything other than tank and spank when designing those areas. So, give the opportunity to everyone as the class of their preference (give sins and company ways to get in), and then nerf Ursan. Until then, I like being able to get into these areas on my sin.

Wait,wait. because you cant join PuGs with your character,anet shouldnt nerf a instantkill skill? saywhut? WtB unselfishness for ya :'3. And pwheaase,im so sick of people claiming that ursan magically cures discrimination.

Tell me,what do you do if you dont have eotn?Oni 15:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

--Kalas Silvern 09:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I like it when u say "anet shouldnt nerf a instantkill skill", because its far from insta kill, even at max norn. --Wild 12:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It allows you to beat any area in HM without any sort of effort whatsoever. How is that different from instakill? -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Wild stop acting a dumb fggt or stop writing, the skill is overpowered . Izzy doesnt care (or "cant while focused on GW2") . No real need for more discussion as GW PvE is Titlegrind Wars and will stay so untill GW2 . (after GW2 it's dead) 91.154.2.80 19:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Im sowwi,but ursan isnt a instant kill? Put 6 ursan strike on a 2 diffrent targets,both die. May i ask,why are you defending ursan? it is impossible to proove that it isnt overpowerd. and it doesnt help discrimination,if you lack eotn you cant go high end anymore than you could before. economy (although i dont give a damn about this part) Is being roflowned.The only reason someone defends ursan is because he/she abuses ursan,or just lacks a brain (:, And,like ive said many times now.

ursan=1 skill

6 ursans=clear any area.

If that is balanced,you should be able to clear ANY area with ANY elite,no? wanna go clear UW with savannahs heat? :DOni 19:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that its overpowered, and agree that it can overpower any high end area, but if they had wanted to nerf this they would have done it a long time ago, its been around for 6 months and people have been crying about it for most of that, they will either nerf it or they wont, oh and no i dont really want to clear UW with savannah's heat as i dont have an elementalist, also why if ur in a PVP guild do u really care if they nerf it or not?--Wild 03:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Instead of nerfing Ursan, why not make other team builds equally viable?GaaaaaH 04:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah,so being in a pvp guild restricts me from pve? never heard that one before,*removes my pve characters* >:

Srsly,stop defending ursan.your argument is epicfail. you dont have ONE SINGLE REASON TO KEEP URSAN IN DAH GAEMz0R!! Ursan doesnt help discrimination one bit Ursan is overpowerd Ursan can clear any area Ursan is demanded by pugs Ursan is instantkill Ursan is ghay Stop defending ursan or ill chew on your headOni 06:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

NO i never said that but i dont see why you needed to mention ur in a PVP guild when ursan is Pve only so it doesnt matter, i never said myself that ursan removes discrimination, i said people like it and people dont, find people who dont like it and start an UW team with them or something, the old school way. i agreed that ursan was over powered, ursan is demanded by pugs in the high end area's i havent seen any missions with people Spamming, GLF Ursans for mission, and i had a different defanition of instakill but as NuclearVII put it i see how u could define that as instakill, but i still dont see why i need to argue about a skill u dont have to use, when they nerf it(if they ever do) people will cry about that also so if u were izzy and u nerf it people would cry at you, and if he doesnt nerf it people like u will continue to cry at him anyways. I do also see that this probally isnt the place to have this argument, and how are u going to chew me on the head?--Wild 10:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Im a pvp player,im in a ranked pvp guild.

That doesnt mean i dont play/care about pve. i CANNOT play in high end areas if i wont go ursan. so dont talk about that bull dont use it if ya dont want to Ursan removes me from high end areas unless i go noob and use it.period. Oh,and wtf. are you saying that anet should KEEP ursan because mindless zombie-newbs cant run a decent build? thats why they should keep a skill so overpowerd that it can clear any areas? is THAT your argument? i mean...basically you say

Skill-less newbs whine if they wont get to use a clearly overpowerd skill. If izzy cant remove/nerf ursan.then he isnt fit to be a skillbalancer,or hes just a coward. or both o:

Ill just track you down and chew on that tasty head of yars. :'3(sarcasm f00) Oni 14:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Gaaaaah, I lol'd at your comment. So, we should make every team build as strong as ursan? This is not a question of "my teams can't get play". This is a question of ursan is fucking broken.

No, seriously, it is. Fucking. Broken. I can think of no better adjective. Oh, maybe "motherfucking broken". hmm, maybe "gayishly broken". Yeah, kinda hard to describe, ursan is. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Motherfuwking bwoken too! Srsly,izzy is a coward if hes too afraid to fix the game because of the 10yrold newbs who will cry when he nerfs it. I know imbanewbs who got hall of monument thingie pretty much full now,and only used ursan getting it. You arent just killing gw1 with this skill. you will have TONS of highest ranked noobs in gw2 aswell,killing goals and stuff for ppl.YAAAAAAAAY. Oni 16:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The thing I like about Ursan is that it allows any profession to get into groups. Before ursan, you had to be Warror or Ele or Necro or Monk to get into group. Now I can actually play pve with people with my assassin and paragon. Before Ursan I had to hench everything, because nobody in pve wants an Assassin(or at least so rarely, it takes 3 hours to find a group).

The thing is,it doesnt matter a friggin damn if you can get into a group now. there are still tons of people who CANT do it,why? because they lack eotn. so pweahse drop it with the class discrimination already. because that fails.epicly. its even worse now.Oni 17:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

--Spura 17:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I still do not get why so many people think it solves discrimination. What makes you think these teams allow assassins? Are you an assassin? You look more like a Ursan to me. You say it allows any profession to get into a group. You are wrong. It allows no profession besides monks and ursans.86.208.203.76 18:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No, ursan does not solve discrimination. If a black man bought white paint, and used it on his face, would that solve discrimination? Tell me, do you think ursan solves discrimination, or do you secretly believe that it allows your pet chars to get precious armor and titles and make your epeen grow? Stop defending this shit for your own sake. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I've reached Legendary Guardian without ever using Ursan Blessing (I used it once, but we failed that mission that try :-) 145.94.74.23 09:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I am growing tired of the BS that is going on about Ursan, players are too busy going at players when the real effect of such fighting should be directed at Arenanet, but in the end Arenanet doesn't give a flying hoot about what you think. Even if Ursan goes against pretty much ever notion of skill, of playing a game based on individual skill, rewarding more skillful players with more challenges etc... Arenanet just doesn't care.

What scares me is that there are some in Arenanet that generally think Ursan is a good skill... which has lead me to believe that there are some truly brain dead developers in their ranks, and for this I feel a great swell of pity. 118.92.214.169 20:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The PvE Update

What. The. Hell.

I read the shadow form change.

Then- I read the incoming change.

I have to seriously ask this:

1 Ursan was not enough? 1 SY was not enough? 1 TNTF was not enough?

This update turned pve into a further joke. A few lines above, you mention 1 hit kills not being fun. Why add moar?

Izzy, I think the arguments against ursan and broken pve balance are at a state in which you can no longer ignore. But, out of the goodness of my heart, let me summarize them: The argument of "if u dont like it dont use it" is bollocks. The argument "ursan helps my class get play" is bollocks. The belief that ursan has been good for the game is as idiotic as worshiping ape genitals. Ursan, hell, all pve skills turned pve into a fucking joke. There are many players out there who will frown upon GW2, only because this game is starting to deviate from the "Skill over grind" basis.

Izzy, do us all a favor. Stop watching player feedback. Stop watching the QQ that goes on here. All the pve fan services have been bad for the game. do your balance disscussion at a private forum with players who know what they talk about and what the game needs.

-- -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Nuclear, partly because of his decent arguments, and partly because of his charming use of the word 'bollocks', which brightened my day. Ursan dosen't help classes get more play than a decent build would. To get a group in FoW you're going to need very high rank ursan at the very least, something not all of us want to get. I got R5 Norn just to get my Norn armour. I don't like Ursan. I don't like playing with Ursans because I like to see variation in playstyles. I don't like the fact that this is getting harder and harder because people see Ursan as the only skill in PvE now.

While I very much appreciate your comment singing with four tildes and replying in the bottom of the discussion will keep talk pages much more in order. Just a friendly reminder. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Whats wrong with the PvE skill update? So what if it kills the economy, this game is about pvp, and having that rare FoW armor.Prokiller88 12:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't just kill the economy. It kills pve, all of it, maybe with the exception of pre. It kills all the fun pve has the potential to posses. That happens when the devs think 1 hit kills are okay. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh my god. Another imbecile. This game was originally not biased towards PvE/PvP. If there's something people don't care about anymore, it's FoW armor. Every Monk/Ele/Warrior and his dog has it, so who the fuck cares. PvE with TnTF, SY and Incoming Chain means raw fucking 96% domage reduction. So what the armor ignoring damage ignores the +100 armor from SY? Still 62% DR left! Shadow Form makes anything cake, cause it's so easily maintained. --- Ohaider!-- (s)talkpage 13:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

>:/. As i thought,izzy wouldnt respond to this question,why am i not suprised?Oni 13:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. It's regrettable, but things likely won't change anymore. QQers are happy now, but they don't realize that most things in PvE are worthless now as you can get them so easy with the right imba builds. I can't remember any skill nerf due to PvE, and that's wrong... —ZerphaThe Improver 13:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You obviously haven't been playing that long then. The biggest tweak was to make mobs run out of AoE, something that was toned down a bit after hardmode was released. Personally, I think they should have left it as it was. I could name other PvE related tweaks also Dargon 15:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The AoE tweak was about the best thing to happen to GW pve. It made monsters a bit smarter, and hurt tank n spank. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If you compare the changes with pvp and pve its wtfzomfgwtf. there have been like 20 updates in pve,if even that. and in pvp..well..alot moar ô.ÔOni 15:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh right, i didn't count the AI update, whoops. I threw that together in my mind with the loot scaling farm update, as both made farming harder, yet that did actually also affect PvE in general. —ZerphaThe Improver 16:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thx for making it so easy ;) cya all at age of conan :).Apparently izzy is capable of killing both pvp and pve at once :o.81.245.243.161 16:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As for PvE skill nerfs, the only one that really sticks out is Seed of Life, and for those who claim that Guild Wars is not about PvE, you are soooo wrong, as there are as many if not more people who play PvE as PvP. This game has a relatively strong PvE storyline, and used to have many challenging PvE areas. I do have to agree that Ursan Blessing is the worst thing to have happened to this game from a PvE standpoint. When one skill on the bars of 6 players in a team of 8 can virtually guarantee completion of every elite PvE area, it's a bad thing. I don't even think about the economy anymore, because there isn't one, I look at the pure enjoyment of the time I spend playing this game, which has been diminished so much by this one skill.-- Wynthyst 17:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem in PvE is consumables. I had not played with them until several days ago. I went with some people to FoW and they broke out these consumables that basically made our team invincible. I was on a Monk and I did not need to heal, it was rediculous. Well, I needed to cast Heal Party occassionally but honestly I was just hitting skills for the hell of it because I was bored. It was retarded. Why do people even care about off-Monk defense skills in PvE when they have these consumables? They should be packing pure damage builds + consumables with 2 Monks. --TimeToGetIntense 19:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Izzy himself stated that Guild Wars was "designed from the ground up for PvP" at GWFC. We've seen nothing but support for that since then - PvE was made ridiculously easy in support of all the players that don't know how to do anything other than mash buttons.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - most people who play Guild Wars don't know how to play and don't have a clue what they're doing. They're the ones who take five skills with no elite into Hell's Precipice and complain that the game is too hard. They're the ones that use Pin Down on Melandru dervs or stance tanks into GvG and complain that their foes' builds are overpowered.

From what anyone can tell GW:EN was released specifically to make the game easier for them. From a business standpoint, that makes a lot of sense - if a lot of people can't play, making it easier for them will make them happier and will get the game recommended to more people. From any other sense, it's ruining the game, plain and simple.

I just thought ANet held themselves to higher quality standards.

-- Armond Warblade 20:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Some pve players don't want the overpowered skills. What we would like though is to be able to play our preferred class with a decent build and intelligent strategy and be able to get into a group anywhere. That is not the case. When it is, they can nerf the stupidly overpowered things. Until then, they have to find some way to let people experience the high end areas. It's far from ideal, but it does provide a way for certain classes that faced immense discrimination to finally have a use. --Kalas Silvern 09:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• copies what i wrote above*

Wait,wait. because you cant join PuGs with your character,anet shouldnt nerf a instantkill skill? saywhut? And pwheaase,im so sick of people claiming that ursan magically cures discrimination.

Tell me,what do you do if you dont have eotn?Oni 15:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow... all you people are horribly rude... come to your senses... Izzy thought that he was doing something good for the community by this as their was a strong support for it. I personally like the idea. All it comes down to is maintaining a balance, which PvE doesn't have atm, but it will be easier once all the skills are separated. Sure Ursanway is probably the worst thing that has happened to PvE, however loot scaling is the only thing that has hurt more... the only thing that loot scaling did was prevent casual players from getting what they want... Grinders will still grind... it just takes longer. The real trick for balancing isn't appeasing you fools, but appeasing all players. --68.102.139.94 15:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

o.o he thought he was doing something good for community when he inserted perma sf again? rlly,being unkillable isnt gud for a game.Oni 19:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, good question, how is perma SF good for the game? How does adding more broken skills make pve better? How did loot scaling hurt casuals? People in 8 person parties didn't even notice it. I know I didn't. Ursan was the worst thing to happen to GW pve. second, the title system. third, pve skills, fourth, this update. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Loot scaling hurt casuals because they can't just grab their cyclone axe warrior and hit up the minotuars anymore. --TimeToGetIntense 21:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

" How does adding more broken skills make pve better? How did loot scaling hurt casuals?" Just because a skill would be over powered in PvP doesn't make it over powered in PvE and that seems to be something most people can't seem to comprehend. The same works in reverse as well, with a good example being a 55 Monk. Also, PvE areas have been greatly nerfed to make up for all the lack of decent skills and thusly they can be rebuffed as well but that point is moot here to a degree. They will be able to buff skills to be useful in PvE and while they may be over powered for PvP they won't be for PvE as the creatures are easily adjustable. So trying to base a skill as being over powered based on PvP veiws is moronic to say the least. Also, loot scaling greatly hurt casual players because they don't play all the time with real people because casual players don't have the time it takes to sit down and play for hours on end to get through missions and the like. If they wanted a skill they had to use the little troll farming or vermin farming or the like to get a little bit of gold to buy a skill. It also lowered the drop rate of collector items so it was harder for them to get a decent weapon from a collector or even collector armor. ~ Sabastian 03:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

First, as far as I'm aware, your avarage joe only farmed mino's when he needed money for his armor. Armor is hideously expensive; but that is another issue. As for you, sebastian, ı can comprehend well enough the difference between pvp imbalance and pve imbalance. Tell me, Ursan, which is, in a nutshell, invincibility and instakilling, OP? Tell me, Save Yourselves, which is party wide invincibility, not broken for pve?

Look, lemme define this out. Anything that turns pve to a simple 123 game is bad for pve. Those skills and builds make pve too easy and degrade pve play. That is why we're screaming at izzy. PermaSF, and the fact that Izzy apparently approves of this super tank build, shows just how much they don't care about this. They keep adding more and more broken shit that makes pve way too easy to play, and, in effect, degrade the playerbase. GW2 will be bad because of this. Hell, if I was in charge, I would've prevented HoM. Why? It's just an invitation to grind! Tell me, what was the bit that was printed in large letters on the proph box? -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, armor in GW is "hideously expensive" but thats another story with it's own issues in poor design. Yes the average joe farms for armor but they also farm for gold to unlock new skills as that get expensive very quickly. PvE players love to play with a varity of skills when they come to new ones that sound interesting and they have their favorite skills in their builds. Then you have keys that all of the new players and average joes buy in the hopes of getting something great from a chest. They also gather the collectable drops for weapons and armor but Loot Scaling requires casual players to either have the best luck possible or become farmers to get the items needed to get the cheap armor and cheap weapons for basic use now.

As for Ursan, it is neither invincibility nor instakilling. If it was then a lone Ursan can wipe an area and that is far from the case. An Ursan user can be killed fairly easily by the Monsters in PvE, especially if they don't have monk or two to save them. Nor does an Ursan provide instakilling or there would be no need for so many on a team. So your over exaggerations only show a poor attempt at wanting it nerfed and looks badly on you and makes it sound like you don't fully know what you talking about. Ursan is unbalanced for a blanced area but then again so is PvE between the classes and so is PvE with the creatures so both are really equally broken. PvE will never be balanced in GW as GW was never really balanced in PvE or PvP, though that is going onto another subject all together. Whether you like it or not, Ursan is currently needed to allow people to play their favorite characters with other people in later parts of the game and in the Elite areas. They may not be playing their character's class to it true nature but then their true nature really isn't suited for PvE with all it's broken mechanics. Thats why the PvE only skills where added, to try and make those classes worth taking. Ursan isn't the best answer but it is currently the only answer until they fully split PvP and PvE and atleast balance the classes out.

"Anything that turns pve to a simple 123 game is bad for pve. Those skills and builds make pve too easy and degrade pve play." And yet for some, PvE is still quite hard with those skills and very few people have those fully maxed out, especially the ones that require hardmode. See, here is the issue that you seem to be missing. Guild Wars is disgned for all but mostly for the majority which are casual players. Ursan really isn't an issue if just one person has it but Guild Wars has some hardcore gamers who will abuse anything. So do you alienate your larger base to deal with the smaller base? ArenaNet has done that for a very long time with the skills but they kept losing a lot of players and the ones they where trying to please kept getting mad since it was never enough and some of them left as well. Also, just because in your prospective it degrades PvE play doesn't mean everyone agrees that it does. It's mostly just a very vocal minority.

As for them adding things like Perma-Shadow Form, well they target a large group of different players. To be blunt and it isn't what you want to hear but you can just not use something if you don't enjoy playing like that. Remember when they added NPCs that can be purchased for the GuildHall? People complained about the price and the response was either "join a large Guild and have everyone donate or don't get them and use the ones in a town as you aren't forced to buy them." For the record, it was primary PvP players saying that on the forums. ;) Also, PvE only seems easy when you've played for a long time plus they have been nerfing PvE left and right. Where you around when doing bonus on Thunderhead Keep was considered suicide? Well it's a joke of what it used to be but you know what? There are still a great number of players who are lucky to beat the current one. ArenaNet has to cater to all the players and the best way to do it is provide skills that work for both and they get to chose what to take. Farmers and experienced players will abuse the skills that new and casual players get, assuming they are willing to spend all the time to max the titles that is, to use but then ArenaNet is damned either way.

"Hell, if I was in charge, I would've prevented HoM. Why? It's just an invitation to grind!" If that was the case then ArenaNet would have been out of buisness a long time ago. Hall of Monuments is meant to be grind to give players something to work at while Guild Wars 2 is worked on. If you don't like it then you don't have to fill your HoM up. They won't tell players what the Hall of Monuments if going to give you in Guild Wars 2 for a reason, it's because if they tell the players what it will do then a lot will stop working for it if they don't like what is gained in Guild Wars 2 from the Hall of Monuments. If all it gave was a title of "Filled my Hall of Monuments" or some stupid hat in Guild Wars 2 then most people wouldn't do it. Even if it gave a special looking armor, if people didn't like the look of the armor then they wouldn't get it. Instead of looking at things with how YOU WANT THEM you need to look at things from more of a business point of view. ~ Sabastian 04:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It is just a way to bring your achievements over to GW2. Nobody ever said you must achieve everything, that's just your way of looking at it. Will it inspire grind? Most likely. Does it make grind mandatory? Never. Ursan does though. 145.94.74.23 07:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

All these things you guys are telling us to ignore attract morons to the playerbase. That is why they are bad. The worse the playerbase gets, the more intelligent players will leave. ANET can only make trade-offs. They cannot expand their playerbase by trying to cater to every single person. What ends up happening is they go half-way on everything and end up with a half-assed joke of a game. --TimeToGetIntense 08:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Sebastian, you are twisting my words.

First off, how is ursan not instakill? Tell me, what is another name for 1 skill, when you have 6 of them, can clear any area in record times with surprising ease?

Look around you, sebastian. Casual players are in an uproar. Ursan was bad as shit to them. The only group ursan has helped are grinders, farmers and other people who need to die in a puddle. Casual players expect to PuG without being harassed. I'm sure Ursan allows that.

Also, why should I care about business? It's a fucking game. I care about how fun it is. The rest is just bollocks. From a business standpoint, however - how smart is it to have a game that screws over a large playerbase, the casuals. Yeah, that's right, Ursan and the recent of dumbing down of PvE has hurt casuals. Loot scaling didn't even phase casuals, because casuals didn't get 5 man groups to clear SF in a systematic manner. Your average joe either pugged or got an 8 man party, and had a blast nuking monsters and doing quests, and maybe hoping for a gold or two. Loot scaling only hurt grinders, period. Furthermore, not all the playerbase bought Eotn. Far from it. And those people who didn't buy eotn, how do you think they feel right now? Is anet smart to ignore that playerbase?

You keep using the "don't do it if u don't want to" argument. All I have to say to that is BULLSHIT. It has been demonstrated by numerous users why that argument doesn't hold water. Go get a new one.

Finally, you say pve is quite hard. I just lol at that, with recent skill updates and all. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

"First off, how is ursan not instakill? Tell me, what is another name for 1 skill, when you have 6 of them, can clear any area in record times with surprising ease?" You just answered yourself. It's not an insta kill, it takes multiple copies of it. So go back and read what I said once more. Also, the only reason it seems good is the armor ignoring aspect in high level areas. Oh and Lightbringer's Gaze was a nice skill clearing skill when used, especially when echoed giving more than six copies of it for even faster clearing.

"Casual players are in an uproar" Thanks, you just showed that you know little on this. Ursan is mostly wanted in the elite areas and casuals that took the time to get the Norn Title up have a chance of making it in those areas. Also, a lot of casuals don't know much if anything about the skill. Since it encourages people to farm and allows more people to farm then it helps in somewhat lowering the price on items making it easier for casual players to get item skins they couldn't afford to buy previously. Since it makes farming easier when you have a team of it then casuals get a chance at some rarer drops and help them make some gold dispite loot scaling. I'm still making new characters (three years into the game) and playing them through the various campaigns, for entertainment mostly, and I PUG with casual players most all the time when doing so. I took a new character through Prophecies a week ago, and do you know how often I say Ursan's even mentioned? Thrice. Twice I ran into someone who had it on their bar, but not a maxed out version, and when I got to the final mission in Prophicies I saw someone trying to assemble an all max Ursans team. That's it. Ursans had no effect on me playing though that campaign, or any other in the recent months that people have been complaining about it. The only real effect I've seen it have, from the viewpoint of someone who is actually out there playing the game, is that it's made it much easier to buy decently skinned items from farmers. I've yet to see anyone else in an uproar about Ursans while playing in PvE, but then again I don't spend much time in the elite PvE areas these days as they become boring after a while, and find myself playing amoung mostly casual players, and most don't even know what Ursans is.

Oy, I pointed out the business aspect since you are only wanting the game to cater to how you want everyone to play PvE. Also, "Yeah, that's right, Ursan and the recent of dumbing down of PvE has hurt casuals. Loot scaling didn't even phase casuals, because casuals didn't get 5 man groups to clear SF in a systematic manner." isn't exactly correct either. The dumbing down of PvE was to help casual players for starters. Loot scaling did hurt casual players since they could no longer get collector armor or weapons without farming a heck of a lot more which took time away from them playing the other aspects they enjoy. Loot scaling also hit them hard because casual players would go farm vermin or trolls for the gold or merchent foder to make enough gold to buy some decent armor and skills and maybe a decent weapon. Also, casual players don't usually play in those elite areas where teams want Ursan but for the ones that do then Ursan helps them get a team without them having to take their Monk or Elementalist there when they just barely got their Assassin there.

"You keep using the "don't do it if u don't want to" argument. All I have to say to that is BULLSHIT. It has been demonstrated by numerous users why that argument doesn't hold water. Go get a new one." Actually no, it has not been demonstrated why it doesn't hold water. People have said they can't join a pug in elite areas without it but if they wanted they could start their own pug. As for the arguments that Ursan is too good not to run then that is still your choice. Aside from one mission in Eye of the North you aren't forced to use Ursan as it is completely a players choice to do so. Look at it this way when it comes to teams wanting to use it: in GvG if you wanted play your monk as pure smiting with no heals or protects then are you going to get taken into highend GvG or laughed at by your guild? If you want to run your pure smiting monk as one of the teams monk slots then you'd start your own guild just like in the higher teirs of PvE you'd have to start your own pug if you don't want to play what is being asked for by the current parties.

"Finally, you say pve is quite hard. I just lol at that" Maybe you should read what I said once more since you can't seem to understand it. I'll be nice and post it again here: "Also, PvE only seems easy when you've played for a long time plus they have been nerfing PvE left and right. Where you around when doing bonus on Thunderhead Keep was considered suicide? Well it's a joke of what it used to be but you know what? There are still a great number of players who are lucky to beat the current one" To break it down further if you can't understand that, the more you play this game and become used to it, the easier it becomes; however, there are still players both new and old that have trouble in PvE. Just because it's easier for some people doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. I've run into many many players, mostly casual players that make up the majority of this games customers, that can't beat a lot of the missions in Guild Wars. ~ Sabastian 05:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Now now... Im sure PvE is really hard,nuklear. i mean,being able to clear all the areas with one skill and being able to have party wide immortality and such (:83.249.119.162 09:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"all pve skills turned pve into a fucking joke" I disagree with this comment. Skills like Light of Deldrimor, Eternal Aura and Summon Spirits are all very well designed, as they combine a normal effect with either counter to something impractical, or a cool PvE-effect. Summon Spirits and Eternal Aura make you skip the time you otherwise spent waiting until your skills were recharged. Light of Deldrimor is useful, but not overpowered and the treasure hunter aspect is rather cool. The same goes for skills like Triple Shot, which slightly improves the DPS of a conjure ranger without being terribly overpowered. Those are all excellent skills. Skills like Ursan Blessing and Pain Inverter on the other hand...87.210.150.58 08:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

My last post here, thing can only go to a flamefest from this point.

Oh yes... now, I have to applaud your ability to argue worthless semantics. Really, congrats, and I'm sorry for saying ursan is insta kill. It sure isn't, you need 6 copies. Of course it bit about how this 6 people do instaskills every 3 seconds, that's an irrelevant point about insta killing, no?

We must be talking about different causals, then. Me, my guildies, and a lot of ex guildies hate ursan. You know, for making it impossible to Pug. Oh, and I'm sure no casuals are discriminated because they don't have EoTN, and god forbid if any one of those posted up here! (hint: Scroll up) However, since I don't have your ability to argue definitions, I'll drop this one. We continue in another talkpage, if you wish.

Actually, it has been demonstrated why that argument doesn't work. Do you know the fourth most epic page on this wiki? Yeah, the ursan talkpage. I suggest you read some intelligent posts there, rather than the scrubs who are afraid to lose their precious farm skill. For your benefit, here is a recap: Ursan fucks up economy. Ursan fucks up player base. Ursan fucks up the pride I may get from my titles ( I don't have any, I guess that makes me a casual?). Ursan fucks up GW2, and, get this, BEFORE IT IS RELEASED! Wow, Ursan is a fucking time paradox.

PvE is easy when you play it long? Wow. Sure, I guess. Here's a fun tidbit though - there was a reason thunderhead was so damn hard. It filtered bad people out of the end game. It was also hard. It was unhenchable. Now, it is. Yeah, with bonus. If you have a brain and can use a few pve skills? Congratz. Do you know who can't hench it these days? People who don't have EoTN or Nightfall. Yeah, not everyone buys all campaigns. Also, I have to apologize again: I didn't know I couldn't define 99% as everyone. Again, incredible ability to argue definitions. Bravo.

I will only respond to further posts on my talkpage. I don't want to get banned over a silly and pointless argument that, tbh, I think is done just to spite me. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sabastian: regarding the "don't use it then" argument you keep using. I think this post sums it up quite nicely why people should stop using that argument: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4000407&postcount=45

Lets just say that I don't agree that PvE'ers had to sacrifice their feel for the game because every skill was balanced around GvG. How on earth can anet force PvP rules to a complete different game type, I mean how would you feel if every skill would be balanced around RA or Hero Battles when playing GvG ? Would that be cool or would you feel left out ? 87.189.231.252 11:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Team Arenas

I'm responsible for a number of vocal posts on Guild Wars Guru for the state of the format. After the most recent update, I figured that I'd be straightforward and ask: how much do you care about TA? You haven't really responded to a TA problem since the Warmonger's Weapon update. I'm concerned that you've completely abandoned the format, or that you simply don't care, and that your March 6th update quite frankly demonstrates a significant lack of TA prescience.

I'm very disheartened by the lack of maintenance for the format, and your most recent updates are almost exclusively GvG-oriented. And although I understand that GvG is the more important PvP format, I'm quite tired of the disregard for certain problems in TA: Wounding Strike, Shattering Assault, Strength of Honor, Wail of Doom, Foul Feast, Signet of Midnight, Signet of Humility, Mantra of Inscriptions, etc. These are problems that are clearly affecting higher level formats or have no real effect whatsoever on them, and yet you haven't done anything about them.

Do you have any agenda to ever directly improve TA, or even coincidentally improve it? Sun Fired Blank 23:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

TA currently seems to be in the same situation HB was in a year ago, in other words it's as though the format no longer exists. After a year of complaints from the HB community trying to get Anet to update the format, I heard a lot of promises that they would "look into it" but nothing ever happened. As people got better at exploiting the imbalanced shrine capping mechanics, the format continued to become worse every month while Anet did absolutely nothing to even try and improve it. If I look at TA now I can only see the same thing: problematic skills lead to more and more gimmicks that start to dominate the format, and it's only going to get worse the longer these problems are ignored. I'm not going to blame Izzy for this since it's clear he simply doesn't have the time to work on both balancing all the PvP formats in GW 1 while also working on GW 2. I will blame Anet however for implementing all the different PvP formats while they had no intention of dedicating enough resources to support them. The Community Managers also didn't seem all that interested in getting feedback from the smaller PvP formats to the devs, always forcing us to complain to Izzy directly. I don't expect anything to change anymore at this point, so I can only hope they won't make the same mistakes for GW 2. --Draikin 13:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I think TA will be coincidentally improved once GvG gets moved more towards splitting because strong 4v4 skills are usually strong split skills. The only problem is that movement control has very little importance in TA aside from priest maps. --TimeToGetIntense 21:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Can't add modules to my PvP edition

Hi, Izzy, I have a serious problem. I own the PvP Edition of Guild Wars, yet I can't add the $10 EotN Skill Unlock pack to be able to use the Ch.4 skills on my PvP characters. Why not? Because ArenaNet/NCSoft changed the way they sell the PvP Edition, and they no longer honor the old purchases for some reason.

Let me explain better. I'm a PvP-only player who bought Prophecies and Factions, and when Nightfall was announced, they sold a $40 "Nightfall PvP Edition" which gave access to the Battle Isles and Nightfall professions and skills for PvP characters but had none of the PvE content. Sometime between then and now, they did away with the old PvP Editions and now sell the much cheaper and more flexible $20 "PvP Access Kit." I'd like to play with the EotN skills, but the problem is that they can only be added to the PvP Access Kit itself, not any of the (older) PvP Editions.

If you want a recap of the problem, you can quickly scan the first 4 posts on the (linked) 2nd page of this thread: http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46066&page=2

What I would like is for players who bought any of the old $40 PvP Editions to be credited as already owning the $20 PvP Access Kit. I would then be quite happy to purchase the EotN skill pack. I see it as completely unfair to force me to buy the PvP Access Kit now in order to get the EotN skill pack, simply because ArenaNet basically changed the name of the PvP Edition. The PvP Access Kit would do literally nothing for my account. I already have access to every skill, profession, and Battle Isles area up through the first 3 chapters.

I have been searching desperately for a member of ArenaNet with the power and the desire to remedy this, but nobody seems to care. Help me, Izzy-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. --Small Purple Raisin 02:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like it's part bug report, which would be more appropriate at User talk:Mike Zadorojny/Guild Wars Miscellaneous Bugs, and part suggestion, which would be more appropriate at User talk:Gaile Gray/Guild Wars suggestions. -- Gordon Ecker 03:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempt to help, and I've also posted the problem in those places in an attempt to humor you. There's a reason I've put this problem here, though, namely that all the "official" outlets I try end up either can't be bothered to address the problem or don't have the power to get anything changed.

Izzy is the person who has a reputation for actually knowing and caring about the PvP community. If he can't or won't help straighten this out, then I'll give up hope that anyone can. --Small Purple Raisin 17:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

While not related, I need to fix a typo here:"caring about the PvP community" becomes "caring about gvg community". Sorry for the thread hijack, but bored. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"caring about the GW2 community" Antiarchangel NO U 22:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"Caring about the nonexistent GW2 community." ~Shard (talk) 08:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Scythes

The max damage is still 41 instead of 14 like it's supposed to be. You should fix that. ~Shard (talk) 03:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop making stupid remarks like that and gtfo this wiki. Dark Morphon(contribs) 08:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's stupid cause you said so, right? Grow up. Nobody likes 8 year old kids who think trash talking makes them leet. ~Shard (talk) 04:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sword:Hammer as Axe:Scythe 76.26.189.65 23:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Swords and hammers are very different. It's more like Bow:Spear :: Axe:Scythe ~Shard (talk) 23:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

These comparisons are dumb. All weapons are used differently. --TimeToGetIntense 23:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Except bows and spears. They're identical, except spears let you use a shield/offhand by sacrificing a whopping 1 damage. OfC rangers don't use bows anymore unless it's a cripshot in gvg. 72.235.48.41 01:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Bows have longer range. It helps when splitting and stuff. Would you split off a Paragon or a Burning Arrow Ranger? Both of them do high damage but one is much more suited to splits for a number of reasons, one of them being range advantage. Spear is only superior to Bow when you're doing straight up 8v8 slugfests. --TimeToGetIntense 08:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that ranger heals and energy management are much more practical than those of a paragon. You should compare a ranger with a spear and one with a bow for splitting. 145.94.74.23 21:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The Bow Ranger is still vastly superior. It has such a positioning advantage over a spear character and the skills it can bring just magnify that. --TimeToGetIntense 22:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Spear:Bow is pretty different, but sword:hammer and axe:scythe isnt. In its core sword has a small amount of variance with a good average damage, axe has higher damage then sword but a much wider variance. This is comparison completely irrelevant, but its interesting to see how fast you guys lose your arguement 76.26.189.65 14:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah we lost an argument to someone who thinks you can compare swords with hammers. We're pretty dumb. ~Shard (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

apparently. Lemme explain then

• hammers are roughly 50% higher base stats then sword in both minimal and maximum damage
• scythes are roughly 50% higher base stats then axe in both minimal and maximum damage

do you see the comparison now? 76.26.189.65 01:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You do have to admit you can compare anything you want Shard. Wheter it is a useful comparison though, is an entirely different matter. 145.94.74.23 10:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

its also why they probably wont lower the damage, because they want to stick to that comparison/theme 76.26.189.65 06:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If hammers caused bleeding and DW and didn't have knockdown, then that would be a good comparison. People don't run hammers for the damage, they run it for the KD. Scythes and axes, on the other hand, do the same stuff, one just has more damage and is 2 handed. ~Shard (talk) 04:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Scythes don't dchop =\ --TimeToGetIntense 13:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Axes don't hit aoe. Axes don't have artificial IAS. Axes don't have energy DW. But... that's about it. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well technically... Energy Deep Wound, Artificial IAS, AoE lol --TimeToGetIntense 10:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Be quiet. :P -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Now that everythings all good and split....

There are many skills that were over nerfed due to their overuse in PvP that should be reverted back for PvE. Here are a few:

• Mystic Regeneration
• Deadly Paradox
• Divine Boon
• Shadow Prison
• Shroud of Silence

I understand the nerf to these skills for PvP, but they are pretty useless for PvE as well.--Shadowsin 13:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Mystic Regeneration, orvernerfed? 0o Seriously not. With the others you should be right - especially with Shroud of Silence. —ZerphaThe Improver 13:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Mantra of Recovery
• mesmer elites
• blood magic
• Spirits
• Assassins

gogogo! maek pve eeisier! --Cursed Angel 13:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I saw deadly paradox and went lol. You want the old version back? For pve? Should be also revamp Rodgorts to what it was before - radar wide nuke? Just for pve, ofc. Since that matters so very little. Pve buff was the worst thing ever to happen to pve. It needs to be fixed, immediately. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

IMO, some skills could be buffed for PvE, but only a few. One example being the Mesmer's energy denial skills - energy denial is very strong in PvP, but in PvE, between the extra arrow of energy regeneration and the high number of foes, it's almost never used (I don't remember ever seeing it used outside the UW farming build). Ideally this would be fixed by changing mob composition, so using energy denial actually becomes better, at least some times, than just killing the enemies - but that is the kind of big change that is not going to happen in GW1 anymore.

Most of the other buffs proposed (not here, but by the community in general) would hurt PvE more than help, IMO. I would be happy if Arena Net actually nerfed some of the PvE-only skills. Erasculio 14:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Cursed, who uses spirits/mesmers in PvE? Has to be the most boring thing ever.

DP is not that OP for PvE seeing as monster mobs, especially in hard mode have like 6 times better stats than you. Rodgorts should be fixed too seeing as it shouldn't really matter and it would probably stop the whole, "Lets all run ursan" because well, Ursan is sooo fucking easy and thats all anyone wants to run. Nothing can be more over powered than that. Anyway its PvE your not going to break it by fixing the skills I mentioned, and furthermore who the hell cares PvE is for looking good who cares if its easy?

More than just mesmers need to be buffed, seeing as how if your not running ursan your running sabway, neither of which call for mesmers.

TBH PvE was not ment to be "Balanced" if it were, all the monsters would be lvl 20 and have simular stats to what a normal player would, instead monsters have bigger mobs, stronger skill power, and in general the same OP AI that heros have when it comes to things like interrupting and casting.--Shadowsin 13:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Btw, Energizing wind should be reverted for PvE use, it was nerfed for primarily pvp problems anyway--Shadowsin 13:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, stop increasing the indent every time you start a new paragraph. Second, understand this: "Should" and "meant" are different things. PvE was meant to be broken, but it should've been balanced. Who cares if its easy? I do. Pretty much all those players that are casual and just want to have good time and do some mindless slaughter of fantasy creatures instead of growing epeens like 20 year olds who live in basements and have self-esteem issues. Cursed was trolling. NO, if you're not running ursan, you're pretty much heroes and henchen with random builds, cause sabway is only run by geeks who want to grind for titles, and ursan is better for that. Monster AI is not broken. Monster AI sucks. Monster reflexes are awesome, bu the ai sucks. AI needs to be buffed and broken stats revamped in order to fix pve. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The indent was to answer each individual user, not to start a new paragraph, one sentence is hardy a paragraph. So hardcore players like it easy, and casuals like it hard, I find that hard to believe. It's PvE, tbh good players dont epeen about PvE crap, and the only thing its really good for is making your character look good. The skills I suggested a buff too would hardly break PvE anymore than its already broken, Deadly paradox was only nerfed due to assacasters, now tell me, what would be the purpose of using an assacaster in PvE? Single target pressure, awesome. Mobs still over power even the most prepared party, especially in HM, and rank required PvE party ads still make me LOL.--Shadowsin 19:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, casual players want to feel like they are playing a good, if not challenging game and enjoy it. Hardcore's want to grind for epeen. Oh, and shadowsin, referring to the pve crap thing, tell me, what is teh ratio between good and bad players in this game? -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Izzy obs Bot Twok

Izzy obs Bot Twok(My 24/7 Obs bot that likes to keep my second computer warm)....

Is it really a bot? If so, wouldn't you be braking your own company's TOA??? Devi Talk 14:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, ban izzy. lolol. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You're kidding right? -FireFox 17:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Cmon, dude, are you really that dependent on sarcasm tags? -- NUKLEAR IIV 17:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was funnt... Devi Talk 17:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not an actual bot. He just keeps it on the observe window with "select a game for me" checked. ~Shard (talk) 04:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Trims for May Monthly

Are the trims going to be given out anytime soon(as in before they are due to be removed again)? 80.42.167.224 16:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ohi, I also would like trim. Thanks. Cakey 15:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Scythes 2

Obs any HA match and watch the frontliners. I'll bet all 3 of them are running scythes. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be the 1500 damage aoe spike?

Just take them out of pvp. They did nothing to improve pvp or build variety. ~Shard (talk) 04:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The big mistake was giving them access to cheap spammable deep wounds, Wounding Strike needs a longer recharge, wearying needs to be 10 energy and pious shouldnt even cause deep wound.

Its not just scythes that are the cause of this, its a combination of 3 really broken things, shadow stepping, expertise working with non ranger skills and energy deep wounds.

Deep wound should have stayed a warriors tool with adren as a limitation, giving such a strong mechanic to assassins and dervish' was just screaming for abuse. 80.42.167.224 10:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It's more than the DW. I've run the A/D, R/D, and a W/D build using scythe attacks. Monks can't outheal it. One monk should be able to outheal one damage source. Shadow stepping/expertise are problems on top of problems, but without scythes, you could at least stop the damage. ~Shard (talk) 23:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

If you can't heal it, try protecting agents it. — Poki#3 07:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

lol try spreading out? uhduh?--Shadowsin 19:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

A Monk can heal through the damage. Between WoH and Patient Spirit you can heal at a rate of like 110 HP per second assuming people are dropping below 50% often for WoH to get the conditional. Also you can bring prots on the same bar. The problem is it's very easy to play a Scythe character. You can solo spike for so much so often that you cause a lot more pressure than your DPS would normally cause. Also you don't have to worry about using Frenzy. You don't have to decide between running fast and attacking fast. In the case of the R/D you have NOTHING to worry about. You're INVINCIBLE. IZZY DOES THE WORD INVINCIBLE REGISTER? Ahem. Sorry, I get frustrated when I think about this issue. Either make Dervishes and other Scythe characters require some skill and thought or just nerf them, seriously. They need to do more than mash skills indescriminately. Also they need to be possible to pressure and punish for bad positioning. Why not take the adrenaline loss off Wild Blow? Warriors should have a way to fuck up R/Ds and just say "GTFO FAGGOT!" I know Wild Blow is supposed to have drawbacks because it's part of a well designed class, but when you put in bullshit that has no conditionals and no tradeoffs, why bother with shit like that? --TimeToGetIntense 21:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Why was Wild Blow nerfed again? Oh yea, it's because Dervish/scythe was abusing it. I really think scythe's damage should remain as it is to retain it's uniqueness as a weapon. But something have to be done with it's massive critical hit damage. Mainly about the auto-crit mechanic whenever you hit a fleeing (aka kiting) target. Lightblade 22:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

On the side note, critical hit's damage does not ignore armor. So why not have everyone get more armor instead of more health? Lightblade 22:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Because the more armor you have, the more you get laughed at by Judge's Insight. Also, Strength of Honor, Conjure, and attack skill damage DO ignore armor. Even if you had a billion (1,000,000,000) armor, the scythe builds running around now would still hit you for around 50 every time, plus the 3 second recharge bleed+DW.

Health is more important, because it only takes two lucky hits or three high-damage-range hits to kill an unprotted monk. ~Shard (talk) 23:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't write armor of as being completely useless though, it does reduce the base damage and (more importantly) is equally powerful to someone with 0% and someone with 60% death penalty. 145.94.74.23 06:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You cant have both conjure and judges insight because conjure requires the weapon to be of the element, Wild blow needs to do what it does because escape is so overpowered its not even funny, block block block ups, moar block.--Shadowsin 17:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Shard, I think you're overexagerating. Dervishes aren't more powerful than Warriors. They lack the knockdown utility, which they make up for with pure damage. Their pure damage hasn't been useful in recent metagames because there was all the passive defense. I think we need active defense back. We need Distortion back. People always say it was broken, but it was a really good metagame. --TimeToGetIntense 22:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget they've got way less armor, cannot carry a shield and don't have adrenaline. Thus they're allowed to do more damage. 87.210.150.58 13:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it really matters if you're knocking down a dude or carrying a shield when three guys in front of you drop dead, right? -- Armond Warblade 17:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Armond your asuming everyone in the fucking game is that stupid as to ball up w/o any defense at all. Knocklocking > pure damage any day. --Shadowsin 04:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Dervishes have no utility matters when there's any defense to worry about. When there is no defense, you don't need Knockdowns, you just need to pack as much damage as possible into your build, thus we get garbage like 3 dervish builds. BSurge is now unplayable, and with it we lost Ward Against Melee, also Aegis is less viable. Everyone complained about passive defense and this is what happened. I think we need some more active defense such as BSurge (without ward) and viable stances and other self defense in GvG. --TimeToGetIntense 22:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

A start could be buffing skills Magnetic Aura. It has several disadvantages over Ward Against Melee (being only 1 target and removable) but it is still overshadowed by Ward Against Melee even after the nerf. Change the recharge to 30 seconds, and you have a playable skill. And there are a lot of skills that could be buffed ever so slightly, without upsetting the metagame, to create active defenses. I have been saying that for a year. When something vital it nerfed, something else should be buffed to compensate, or you'll create imbalances. With all melee defenses nerfed, casters start dropping like flies. Unexpected? 145.94.74.23 07:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how much utility a profession has, it matters how much utility a profession BRINGS. When you can kill someone in 3 hits (yes, 3 hits), you don't need utility because the mesmer that was shutting down your monks just blew up. Armond is almost right about dervishes being better since the blockway meta is gone, but dervishes by themselves are a weakass profession and have always sucked. Scythes alone are the problem with these A/D, R/D, W/D, D/E builds. When your critical DW skill takes away 33% of someone's health, utility and defense go to hell. Technically, conjure and SoH are terrible on scythes, people only run them because the damage tradeoff doesn't matter when your 3-man frontline can spike three different targets at once and kill them all, protted or not. It doesn't help that can be upkept on the other party for a whole match either.

Let's talk numbers. The best weapon in the game hitting a single target, ignoring attack skills, is hammers, which do about 42.08 damage per hit and have about 24.04 damage per second. Scythes come in second place, with 0.15 less damage per hit and a whopping 0.08 less DPS. Throw in an accidental double/triple hit once every 4 or so swings and it becomes more than twice as good as any weapon in the game.

Now let's talk Deep Wound. Swords and axes have it, but they're either conditional and/or requires adrenaline. Hammers have it, but it requires knockdown, which requires adrenaline. Daggers have it, but it requires other attack skills to hit first. Spears have it, but it requires either a critical (ok that's easy) or lots of adrenaline. Scythes have one unconditional DW with a 12 second recharge, and one that requires an enchantment but can be used every 3 seconds.

Now let's talk spikes. A warrior spike requires adrenaline, so it's on an almost predictable clock. He can do a big spike once every 10 seconds or so, then have offspike pressure with the occasional bull's strike or whatever. Dagger sins require a LOT of things to go right in order to perform a decent spike, including the need to completely fill up their bar for the spike. Scythes can spike every 3 seconds for 150 damage and deep wound a pop, with only one or two skills, and energy's not an issue because all your attack skills cost 5 energy, which you get back from the next RoF your monk mails you.

Scythes need to come out of the game. ~Shard (talk) 08:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of math, let's talk about that 150 damage you keep mentioning. Let's say you make a critical hit (*1.4) at 16 Scythe Mastery (+15%), with 20% armor penetration, 15^50 (+15%) and customized (+20%). That's 41*1.4*1.2311*150%=105 damage, not 150. Even when multiplying the % individually, you only reach 112 damage. While this IS impressive, it is nowhere near the 150 each spike that you mention, even in the best case scenario. The dervish using it would need a lot of additional skills to reach the 150 damage EACH spike. Using your average damage, a dervish reaches only 77.5. If I am incorrectly applying math here, then please show me what I am doing wrong. Otherwise, I think you're really exaggerating things to win the argument in your favor. 145.94.74.23 09:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

They spike with attack skills. I get 150s on my scythe builds easily. Try running one - you might be surprised how fast you can kill the Master of Damage without using a whole skill bar.

I should remind you that most of the scythe builds in PvP (not the R/Ds) run damage buffs on thw spikes, so a conjure and a SoH and a Judge's Insight can put a single attack skill into the upwards of 180 damage. I know it doesn't have anything to do with scythes alone, but that's the damage tradeoff I was talking about, and it's a problem. As for your math... It got too long for this talk page, I'll make a table with scythe damages under different conditions on my user page if you care to peek. ~Shard (talk) 11:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

whoru? -FireFox 11:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Then I'd like to see how you combine 15 Mysticism, 16 Scythe Mastery and enough points in an elemental attribute to deal that amount of damage. Because you state that you can deal more than 150 damage, with just Wounding Strike, AND get 5 energy back for the next RoF your monk mails you. Individually, the things you say make sense, but they only become truly overpowered when you combine them, which is simply not possible. Also, I won't argue that you deal a lot of damage when combining a conjure, SoH and judge's insight, but I fail to see why a spike that takes 4 skills + a lucky critical to work is such a problem. I'd love to see that table, but don't forget to add the formules you used to calculate them too, please. 145.94.74.23 11:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

AFIAK, You can't combine Conjure + JI, but like I said in the other section, with Conjure + SoH your damage is increased by around 30, then you've got 12 minimum damage after weapon mods, so by using Mystic Sweep or Eremite's Attack you can spike for a lot of damage over about a second even with incredibly bad luck. Oh and Mystic Sweep will also be getting +30 damage just because you happen to have Conjure, Strength of Honor and whatever Mysticism enchant they use so they can't be spiked. How about that, eh? --TimeToGetIntense 20:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added two tables of scythe damage, one for 12 SM and one for 16. The damage formula I used is a very slightly modified version of Damage calculation, and when I say modified, I mean more accurate.

On a side note, only bad dervishes run 15 mysticism on a scythe build.

Conjure and Judge's don't stack, but SoH and judges do, and some teams run that. Any exponential damage increase on scythe attacks is devastating.

Let's not forget that scythes can hit three people. A bad scythe player gets lucky with them, but a skilled scythe user can hit multiple people once every 3 or so hits. ~Shard (talk) 06:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I agree. The scythe is a little more problematic than I thought. Hitting three people in PvP still seems more based on luck than skill to me though. Against good players. 145.94.74.23 10:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see it as problematic, 2-3 skill slots are being wasted to add around 30 dmg to an attack. That's a bad use of skill slots, especially when rip or rend enchantments are around. The real issue with scythes is are ppl willing adapt the way they kite, b/c of the massive criticals inflicted and space themselves to avoid the adjacent AoE. I don't have a problem with it, I just spirit bond and space myself further from my teammates. I'll take to crits from kiting while using an armor set to minimize the dmg differential while gaining back health from spirit bond so it's getting pokes from wands at most. I personally prefer monking against dervishes over warriors b/c damage is easier to deal with than KD. Plus it's melee so there's like a million ways to counter it.~>Sins WDB 15:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a bad waste of three skills to be able to spike every six seconds for <insert shitload of damage>? I'll even grant you six skills if you include the derv's bar, seven with a conjure. Bear in mind that BD/AG took fourteen or sixteen across seven or eight people, and while it was significantly more powerful, it couldn't be spammed like scytheshit can, which means it had a harder time adapting to new situations. I'd also like to see your team spread out in choke points (frozen isle bridges, burning isle corridors, anywhere in HA or during VoD...). It's really not hard to say "hey, they're not really bunched, let's send in the scythes and get people kiting!" I've run against some really good teams in HA where everyone kited into each other simply because there was nowhere else to go.

Also, who runs 15 mysticism ever? 13 I could see if you don't have anywhere else to dump the points (mel derv, etc)... -- Armond Warblade 16:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Shard does, because he gets 5 energy when a monk mails him a random Reversal of Fortune. That's what he said, not my words, his. 145.94.74.23 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Guess you've never heard of rounding, or of energy regeneration. -- Armond Warblade 20:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You're making a fool out of yourself Armond. This is what Shard wrote:

attack skills cost 5 energy, which you get back from the next RoF your monk mails you.

To get 5 energy back from a RoF, you need at least 15 Mysticism. The Mysticism page clearly states that any energy gain is rounded down, so that can't be it. Shard clearly stated that you got all of the energy back by the RoF, so it cannot be energy regeneration too.

Are scythes overpowered? Most likely. However, in this discussion (and the other ones on this page) the Dervish has somehow managed to get 15 Mysticism, 16 Scythe Mastery, 10+ in some other attribute. He also manages to get a critical hit on each strike, found a sundering scythe with a 100% chance to get 20% armor penetration, always hits 3 targets (even in PvP) and combines 2 attack skills into one (Chilling Victory and Wounding Strike) in order to spike in less than a second. Not to mention that Chilling Victory (which is the skill that deals the insane amount of damage, not Wounding Strike) somehow managed to get the same recharge as Wounding Strike. That is just trying to make a situation look worse than it is.

That being said, I still agree with you. The scythe and its attack skills might need to be toned down a bit, but don't forget that axe warriors get a lot more armor, a shield and a longer knockdown duration as a tradeoff for the damage. I'd rather compare the Dervish to the Assassin, and then I see a damage dealer that was meant to focus on AoE that somehow manages to spike a lot better too. 145.94.74.23 13:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Learn to spread tbh, if your that dumb that you cant get out of adjacent range of a scythe hitting your party member then you shouldn't be PvP'ing tbh. Scythes arent that op seeing as it takes them almost as long to swing as a bow shot, crit scythes and R/D are OP not the scythe it self, nerf them not dervishes.--Shadowsin 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Is called Land of Tiny Maps Where You Can't Kite Except Into Your Allies. And even if you can't hit more than one guy at once, it's still more DPS and spike than axes, which already have too much dps and spike. -- Armond Warblade 17:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Quote:"don't forget that axe warriors get a lot more armor, a shield and a longer knockdown duration as a tradeoff for the damage" 145.94.74.23 06:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Shard loves his hyperboles. Literary devices FTW, no? -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

People, you're getting sidetracked into semantics and pedanticalness. Put away the e-peens and stick to the issue: Scythes. Scythes are overpowered. Any weapon that can regularly hit for triple digits through C-Spacing is overpowered, doubly so when you can pump out (effectively free) DW at an obscene rate. There are several extraneous fixes that could be made to patch things up for now, making Escape end on a successful attack and doubling the recharge of Wounding Strike and Wearying Strike, but at the end of the day, scythes are still broken. How can you tell they're broken? They're being exploited on a massive scale. Entire metas have been built around them. That does not happen to balanced mechanics.

And seriously, fuck your theorycrafting. If you were right, this problem would not exist. This problem does exist, therefore your theorycrafting is wrong. If you don't believe a problem exists, hit B and start counting farming implements. --71.229.253.172 12:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

And 71.229 demonstrates a textbook example of "epic win". -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

And that is exactly where you're wrong. All of you, you do nothing but exagerate the effect of the scythe (I could swear some of you don't even know that they attack slower than axes). Scythes are often used, because people THINK they're overpowered, and they think they're overpowered because everyone else screams they're overpowered. News flash: neither [StS] nor [rawr] used scythes and they did better than anyone else. So how come those übar l337 scythes didn't stop them? 145.94.74.23 16:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. On a side note, HA teams only accept certain builds if you're under rank 12. How can you NOT play a scythe when the players around you force you to use one?

Rawr win by farming NPCs at VoD with splinter weapon and ancestor's rage. They do this by having as much defense as is humanly possible, so an axe warrior is more useful there. Do you seriously think people aren't running all warriors in dervsmite teams just because they're easily influenced? Lord of all tyria 16:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think a lot of people are running dervishes/scythes because they're easily influenced. I have seen enough unneccessary nerfs because people were too lazy to change their build. 145.94.74.23 17:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

so half the guilds are mindless idiots who just go with whatever people tell them amirite? Antiarchangel TROLL 17:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason Scythes do not appear as much in super high level play as much as the other 99.99999% of the game is because players of rediculously high caliber CAN defend from a gimmick build involving tons of damage and no shutdown. Anyone else can't really play balanced well enough to defeat opponents of the same skill level who use easy builds involving scythes. This is the same thing that happened with any gimmick before. RSpike, IWAY, SB/RI, etc... Were those things overpowered? Yes. Did they pose a threat to top teams? No. --TimeToGetIntense 04:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that Antiarchangel, I just said they were overhyped. I didn't say they weren't overpowered, I just asked you guys to keep things in perspective. Half of your statements are correct, the other half is just random things thrown together that blow things out of proportion. TimeToGetIntense usually makes a lot of sense and is correct on a lot of things, but that random percentage will be read by a lot of players as truth, when in fact it is just an assumption. 145.94.74.23 09:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Which part is exaggerated? Scythes crit a lot because they can force people to kite from them, and scythe crits are triple digits on normal scythe targets (squishies). Scythes can dish out DW about once every five seconds in real conditions, which is a ludicrous rate. Several metas have been built around scythes (Sway, Triple Tree, Dervway, Dervsmite, Dervshit). About half of all spike builds currently in existence take an A/D for the plentiful DW and the big numbers. And seriously, the 1.75sec attack speed doesn't matter much when you've got as much artificial IAS and real IAS as they do plus the previously mentioned critting. --71.237.30.4 10:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no desire to reapeat everything that has been mentioned in this discussion. The things you mention aren't exagerated, the things other people in this discussion mentioned however are. You can't fix a problem if you make it bigger than it really is. That is all I am saying. I agree that the scythe is a little too powerful, however I want a discussion based on facts, not sentiments. The real problem in my opinion are critical hits, not the scythe itself. If auto-criticals on moving targets were removed, and/or critical hits were based on average damage instead of maximum damage, the scythe would be perfectly fine. Oh, and Restore Condition owns Wounding Strike any day. 145.94.74.23 11:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If autocrits on moving foes was taken out, Axes would be hit pretty hard. They get a lot of damage due to that mechanic. Again, I think it hinges on the recent defense nerfs. It would be nice to see some active self defense skills buffed, this would make splitting more universal while providing the defense needed to keep Dervishes in check. Of course, if we're talking stances, Wild Blow needs to be 50% fail chance at 0 Strength, otherwise stance buffs would just encourage more Dervishes. --TimeToGetIntense 11:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. I agree with you, that could work. I have been whining a lot about Magnetic Aura lately, but I think it is an example of a skill that might be able to provide active defense, if buffed the right way. The % block might have to be lowered though. 145.94.74.23 12:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with buffing Magnetic Aura is that Monks will be able to use /E for both Glyph of Lesser Energy and Magnetic Aura. I'm starting to think Glyph of Lesser Energy should be nerfed to 1...2 spells though. Whenever it comes to buffing any Ele skill you have to worry about secondary abuse because the profession also has a great e-management that you don't have to spec into. Another potential problem with Magnetic Aura is that we might end up with like 3 copies of Grasping Earth in every build. I guess it's not too hard to balance but these things need to be taken into account. --TimeToGetIntense 00:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Quote=Shard "On a side note, only bad dervishes run 15 mysticism on a scythe build."

Quote=some other guy "Shard <runs 15 mysticism>"

Dictionary.reference.com -> click in the top text field -> type "Exaggerration" -> read definition -> punch yourself.

I did not mean dervishes run 15 mysticism because rof gives them back 5 energy. I also did not mean the US postal service sends them a skill in an envelope. However, 6 mysticism is very easy to spec, and how many enchantments do you think end on a dervish in a standard 2-monk build every 30 seconds or so, not to mention they bring self enchantments meant to end? Mysticism really should be whenever one of your own enchantments ends on you, but that's another issue. Dervishes are a joke anyways, nobody would run them if their native weapon wasn't the best weapon in the game. ~Shard (talk) 04:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Except that, if you took the real quote, Shards really made it sound like every Dervish is running 15 Mysticism, 12 Conjure and 16 Scythe Mastery. To balance something, it really matters if you balance it based on assumptions, or on facts. Shards way of speaking about the Dervish is (except for now, when I caught him on it) is exactly what I call 'overhyped'.

As for Magnetic Aura, I agree with your issues, but a simple solution would be to make it cost more energy. Mirage Cloak is an excellent self-defense skill, but only Elementalists, because they are the only ones that can afford the energy cost. By making Magnetic Aura cost at least 10 energy and making it scale, it would take a lot of resources for a non-ele just to get a simple block chance vs. melee. MA should only outclass Guardian with its 0.25¼ seconds casting time. 145.94.74.23 07:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop being dumb. The numbers he spoke of are attainable with a 11-10-10 or 12-10-8 spec. Throw in a minor scythe and mysticism rune and a scythe headpiece and you're done. -- Armond Warblade 07:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Haha, funny. If you had any clue what I was talking about, you wouldn't call me dumb. 145.94.74.23 08:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This section is an epic testimony why literary devices such as metaphors, hyperboles and similes don't work on the internet. Fine, scythes hit for 130 damage instead of 150. Whoop de doo. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

My scythe A/D can kill a 60 armor dummy target in 2 hits every time and most real players in 3, 4 if they had a prot. How is that balanced? ~Shard (talk) 22:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Shard, while you do have a point, the people who accuse you of exaggerations are approaching to truth. After conducting my own little tests, I found that I roughly did 100 dmg per crit (Under Strength and Honour and judges), and around 160 dmg with chilling. Now, call me a bad player, but that's no close 2 hit kills, not even on dummies. I think time is closer to the truth than you are - Scythes are too easy to play for their power. I have to change my line of argument to that.

I am not contradicting you. But by exaggerating too much, you play into their hands. Don't. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you use DW? Roll the retarded A/D build. Pious Assault -> Chilling Victory on a 60 armor target. If they both crit, it's a 2 hit kill every time. I wasn't exaggerating. ~Shard (talk) 21:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll state once again that I totally agree with you guys, but I also feel that you cannot solve a problem if you bend everything in your favor. We want balance, not underpowered stuff, right? 145.94.74.23 19:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be good to have all the Scythe builds be underpowered. Back when the only Scythe Deep Wound was Wearying Strike, things were pretty decent. I still think Melandru is stupid and bad for the game, but at least it has down time. The Scythe builds we see these days just pump out damage non-stop. --TimeToGetIntense 10:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did consider DW. It was pious - Chilling with judges and SoH. Two crits were very rare. And yes, it's a 4% to get a two hit kill. In real life, due to autocrits, you get both hits pretty much every time, but then they have prots, blocks, armor... Arguing semantics, yeah. But I agree with time, for the record. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The A/D gets +59% bonus chance to crit if running Critical Eye and Way of the Master at 14 Critical Strikes. That should mean about 75% chance to crit on every attack, so you have a 56% chance to crit twice in a row. Of course you can't run that with Pious Assault, but you can either use Wounding Strike or Assassin's Remedy + Wearying Strike. --TimeToGetIntense 08:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Removing skills from PvP?

(Warning, PvP n00b talking about PvP): With the current way to split PvP and PvE skills, would it be possible to remove skills from PvP (at least temporarily) without removing them from PvE? This is possible in an indirect way (just make a PvP version and nerf it to death), but it could be interesting in a more direct way, IMO, by forbidding some skills to be equipped in the PvP outposts. I have the feeling that some skills have been a problem in PvP for a long time now, and that maybe it would be interesting to remove them from PvP until they may be properly balanced (shadow stepping skills, for example). Plus, it feels like the excess of skills implemented in the games after Prophecies have really hurt balance; maybe a few of those skills could be removed permanently, in order to make balance easier to implement (especially now, given how much of Arena Net's resources are focused on GW2). I have no idea if this is something the top PvP players would like to see happening (I'm curious to learn if this is just a noob's opinion or if it would actually be good), but I do wonder if it would be possible in the game. Erasculio 12:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Should be technically possible, though I don't see if izzy would do it. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There are PvE only skills as it is with a lock icon on those skills when entering pvp outposts outside of the isle of the nameless (see ursan, sy, etc). PlacidBlueAlien 15:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It would be possible to slit the skill, and then lock the PvP version. That said, your proposition isn't balancing. Limiting options =/= balancing. — Poki#3 18:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right - it's not balancing, but it is a way to make balancing easier. The question is, would it be worth it? In one extreme, we have the game with 2.000 skills being almost impossible to balance properly (and thus with many skills that are left as useless, so they're out of the poll of skills that must be taken care of). In the other extreme, we have the game with 10 completely balanced skills...But no one would want to play thanks to the complete lack of options. My suggestion is to remove a few skills temporarily, so they wouldn't hurt the PvP game until they have been properly balanced, and to remove a few other skills permanently, in order to keep balance something easier to get. If it would be worth removing options from the game or not...I don't know. That's up to the PvP players who excell at that game mode. Erasculio 18:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Some skills could just be nerfed to the extreme in PvP, which is essentially the same as banning them from PvP. Why lock them away completely? Also, no nerf is ever permanent, they can reverse it anytime they like. So in a way, your system has already been implemented. 145.94.74.23 19:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

tbh i really like relic run. its the most balanced gameplay imo as it favors balanced builds. You sway 24/7 so you dont know this. A typical balanced build contains a snare for one sole purpose... to dominate relic run. In sway, a ranger sometimes brings grasping earth, a single snare, and than therea are the traps which are a breeze as long as u can have someone wand the rangers. Plus, sway dosent have a perma speed boost, balanced does.

the r/e always have grasping earth, ward against foes and spike trap, for what? snaring maybe? u know why the trappers always trap the relics? sway lacks nothing in there, even have 3 ppl with escape if needed to run. --Cursed Angel 00:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Why remove skills from pvp when you can nerf them to hell, then slowly buff them into usefulness? Removing them is an unnecessary step. It only sounds like a good idea because there are tons of skills that shouldn't be allowed in pvp. ~Shard (talk) 23:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I dont think there is much left to nerf, my rough estimate is that approximately half of skills are subpar and dont get any play(excluding the newbie crowd). And the reason for this, I believe, is as you suggested to simplify the game. A-net needed motivation for pvpers to buy the expansions so they added more skills to already very,very difficult game to balance. Obviously this results in dead skills as we see them now, but in the end there is nothing you can do about it as devs need their salaries. It would be great if GW2 released with the best of current GW skills if the system is similar enough or at the very least let the number of skills be balancable in GW2--64.229.151.84 03:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

GW is NOT a hard game to balance, considering they can change anything, anytime, after seeing how mechanics are abused. A good balancer could fix this game in one month. ~Shard (talk) 04:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

~2000 interacting skills? Pretty sure that isn't easy to balance. - 124.169.61.137 06:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be easily fixed by simply removing half the content in the game. Wait, somehow I feel like I'm missing something important here... --TimeToGetIntense 09:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The key to balancing a competitive game is taking it slow, you can't change everything at once and hope it will work. Izzy balances things slowly, but most of the time, they're the wrong things. I worry that GW fails as a competitive game because Izzy doesn't play competitively - he doesn't know what makes something good or why people run some builds, which is the biggest problem. I also think he either likes gimmicks too much, or his bosses are telling him to let gimmicks exist, so the 90% of pvpers who are terrible have a way to win. ~Shard (talk) 23:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be true, but there are things you CAN change without upsetting that balance because of previous experiences. For example, I doubt there would be anyone who'd say Magnetic Aura were overpowered if it got let's say 1...8...10 seconds duration and 30 recharge, but it would be a lot more playable. Those are changes everyone is waiting for, that won't upset the balance at all. 145.94.74.23 11:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ineptitude turned out to be imbalanced after a "harmless" buff. --TimeToGetIntense 00:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wail of Doom -- VegaObscura 00:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I do hope that we will have less skills in GW2, if anything in order to have all skills balanced, as opposed to having some viable ones and the near majority being underpowered skills that have are kept so in order to not interfe much on balance. I would be happy to lose one third of our current GW skills, as long as everything left were balanced (the overpowered ones nerfed, of course, but also all underpowered ones buffed). Right now, I think there are just too many possible skill interactions to make balance viable. Erasculio 00:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The cool things about games with variable components (cards, skills, etc) is that combos will exist, and combos alone make some things better than others. I think the biggest problem GW has along THOSE lines is that there are too many mechanics that combo with everything (Expertise, Paragons, and prenerf Mantra of Recovery or Deadly Paradox, for example, which coincidentally were all broken at one point), so you pair those with...everything, and you get a really, really imbalanced build. Wizards stays away from making those types of cards (MtG) as much as they can, most of their stuff almost always reads "the next time X..." instead of "Every time X..." to keep things at a predictable level of power. 72.235.48.41 01:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wail of doom isn't overpowered, it's just strong. Just compare it to 3-4 seconds knock-downs on a warrior, this skill is basically the samen minus the snare, and it can be removed too. 145.94.74.23 21:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

145.94.74.23, honestly, let's say you pre-veiled and the enemy team doesn't bother to remove it, they just WoD over it. Would you honestly be able to dimiss Holy Veil and catch a spike fast enough against a well coordinated team? How many Monks do you think can do that fast enough? Now, this is all assuming they have no enchantment removal. If you do remove it, they will start removing your Veil before doing it. Then there is no way to remove it. It doesn't help that Eles are not viable in TA, if they were you could have the Ele bring Reverse Hex, or just infuse I suppose, but this still takes a hell of a lot more skill on your team's part than the other team using WoD. Comparing it to Warrior attacks is flawed as well. All of them have activation times and can be blocked or can miss. Wail of Doom can be applied so tightly with the spike, with no warning, no way to interrupt it, that it's broken. --TimeToGetIntense 22:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you do have point. I didn't know it had a 1/4 activation time. 87.210.150.58 13:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Comparing Wail of Doom to warrior knockdowns is like comparing Flare to Meteor Shower. Wail of Doom:

• Can't be blocked.
• Can't miss.
• Can't be interrupted.
• Is ranged.
• Costs nothing.
• Doesn't require a specific weapon.

How can you honestly think WoD is anything but broken? It instantly kills someone for 4 seconds. ~Shard (talk) 07:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Wail of Doom also...

• Doesn't prevent the target from kiting.
• Doesn't prevent skills that don't really scale on attribute (like say, Infuse Health).
• Does require a specific class (Necromancer) to be effective - which is worse than requiring a specific weapon. Bull's Strike, ffs.

While it's certainly not a direct comparison between the two, it's not a clear cut "X is better than Y" either. Honestly, it's not really much worse than Gale once you consider the trade-off between the total shutdown of KD versus the spamability of WoD. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 07:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, skills are hard to compare, but when your team wants a skill that can "remove target foe from the game," between physical KDs, which are very limited and conditional, versus WoD, which is unstoppable, which do you pick? I'd even venture to say it's the best skill in the game. This was the reason Gale was nerfed. It's bad enough in large arenas like HA and GvG, where you at least have another monk to cover for your recently tempo-dead healer, but in smaller groups, like in Team Arenas, it becomes a 4v3 which usually ends in a quick defeat. Even if a skilled monk is preveiled, he can be "Wailerrupted" in the middle of his (insert 1 second spell here) before removing his veil, causing him to lose time and energy. Non-scaling skills (or skills which scale idiotically, like infuse) aren't affected, but I think WoD makes up for that by reducing any frontliner's damage to 3, or by making the enemy mesmer's next Diverion have a 5 second shutdown, or by making the enemy Elementalist lose 50 energy. Yes, there are things WoD can't do - it's the things it CAN do that make it deadly. ~Shard (talk) 11:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I see your point Shard. 145.94.74.23 11:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

But really, we've argued about why or why not WoD is broken. Now go play some Team Arenas and tell me what happens when you fight a team who uses WoD. Anyone who's actually played against it in team arenas would not even consider that this skill could in any way be a fair skill. --TimeToGetIntense 20:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"Comparing Wail of Doom to warrior knockdowns is like comparing Flare to Meteor Shower. Wail of Doom: * Can't be blocked. " Actually it can be blocked, Hex Breaker works nicely. And if you are even remotely competent you can use it to avoid Wail of Doom, if it actually poses an issue for you. Also, Signet of Humility works nice. ~ Sabastian 06:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we should carry a single skill to counter one hopelessly broken build. Now, that has worked in the past, no?. Bad argument, sebastian. get a new one. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hex Breaker is shit anyway. The Necro has a junk hex that can be used to remove it before applying WoD, just like he has Rip Enchantment so Holy Veil can't counter it either. It's pretty fucking easy to get around any attempts to stop WoD from happening. The only use for Hex Breaker is against Domination Mesmers who don't use a junk hex because they aren't stacking hexes, but the WoD Necro is stacking hexes, so the junk hex is useful whether or not Hex Breaker is involved. Also, if you're running Hex Breaker, that means you're NOT running a tactics stance, which means you get splattered by Hammer Warriors. We're talking about TA here. --TimeToGetIntense 11:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Going back a bit to my original idea (at the top of this section): I have the feeling some mechanics won't ever work in PvP. So I would like to propose the permanent removal of all skills linked to some mechanics, such as:

• Shadow stepping skills. Much has already been said about how teleporting around weakens the strategy involved in knowing how to move on the battlefield. Making all the shadow stepping skills to be PvE only would solve this problem.
• Weapon Spells. Buffs that cannot be removed are something that, IMO, is a bit out of place in PvP, so their removal would only reinforce the idea of having some kind of counter to everything. Plus the removal of Splinter Weapon would only help to balance GvG.
• Ritualist Spirits. They are very useful for turtling, something that only hurts PvP.
• Dervishes' Forms. Same reason for the weapon spells - buffs that cannot be removed by anything. The trouble given by Avatar of Grenth and Avatar of Melandru is a good example of how nocive those skills have been to PvP.
• Paragons' Chants and Shouts, for the same reasons as above.

In fact, I would suggest the creation of PvE-only professions for GW2, so we would not have hade many of the problems the four later classes have added to PvP. Think how different GW would be now if, from the beginning, Ritualists and Dervishes had been PvE only. Erasculio 00:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Shadow steps generally have a long recharge that balances out things. Plus they're limited to casting range for the most part. Weapon Spells are balanced by being non-stackeable. Spirits are very easy to kill, especially after that last patch to them. Dervish forms have long, unavoidable downtime. Chants can be interrupted by Mesmer skills (among others), and there's a variety of Anti-shout hexes. Umm... do you have a problem with Item Spells too? — Poki#3 01:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

43 out of 110 ritualist skills are spirits and weapon spells, 37 skills need a spirit or weaponspell to work, that's 80 skills u take out, there's only channeling magic and restoration left, don't u go watch these attributes and see how many skills in them that needs a spirit or weapon spell to use it's full potential? why do u even write this down? isn't this a bit too drastic? not even a bit? u even think izzy would do it? --Cursed Angel 01:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Poke: Shadow steps with any sort of recharge are overpowered in this game, weapon spells have insanely powerful effects to balance out the fact that you can only have one of them at a time (splinter, warmonger's, warding?), spirits are still powerful even if they're easy to kill (glass cannons much?), derv forms are literally godmode for over half the match unless you're dumb and get interrupted (seriously, the benefits more than outweigh the recharge, even with the old durations), mesmers have better things to tab around for than chants (and they're still unremovable, and you can't expect a mesmer to get every chant + enough monk skills to be worthwhile + whatever else the midline's sporting, pick two), and I believe there's a grand total of two anti-shout hexes, both of which are horrible and require the other team to be actually using shouts and chants to not be a waste of a skill slot (this is why ward harm is horrible against sfway, too).

Cursed, no, it's not drastic enough. The proper thing to do would be to flat-out delete the non-core professions, along with all Nightfall and EotN skills. Realistically, just banning them from PvP would be enough, but given ANet's track record, that wouldn't be implemented any time soon even if ANet wanted to do it. (Non-core professions were kind of a dumb idea anyway, or at least executed badly. They have far few skill and armor choices than the core professions.)

-- Armond Warblade 02:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah 6 professions would be fun and create loads of variations like balanced, balanced and maybe balanced now when sway is out. it'd finally be back to that game of skill when everyone use the same shit and nothing overpowered or gimmicky exist. good idea. --Cursed Angel 02:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hexway would still be there. And quite honestly, it'd promote different varieties of balanced (different midlines, which are really the core of any balanced build), which would be fun. I charge you with finding me a non-balanced build that isn't overpowered gimmicky or trash. Go! -- Armond Warblade 02:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It would also promote my Assassin to slit some throats. — Poki#3 02:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and you want a Sway type build from pre-factions? IWAY! "Gimmicks" will always be there. — Poki#3 02:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

this makes me remember the VIM trappers and IWAY teams which back then were the only non-balanced teams in ha, but it wasn't even called ha back then --Cursed Angel 02:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A little difference there poki. You can kill Iway. You can't kill SWAY. (Unless if you are Korean/manly/brave) -- NUKLEAR IIV 09:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they can make all the professions they decide to put in GW2 balanced for PvP, so long as they don't add any new ones after the initial release. The above mentioned mechanics are not inherantly bad for PvP, they are bad for GvG because it was not designed to handle them. The same mechanics that break in GW work in other games because they were designed with them from the start. --TimeToGetIntense 10:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem, IMO, is that I'm fairly sure Arena Net will add more professions to GW2 after the initial release - almost all MMORPGs add new classes/professions/whatever in expansions, and Arena Net has already set a precedent for itself with GW1.

The professions added to GW1 appear to be a result of the developers (who were aiming to make something cool) talking to the marketing team (who were aiming at something the players would enjoy) while completely ignoring the game balancers (who would likely object against anything that would hurt PvP). Not only some mechanics are just bad for the game (c'mon, a profession who specializes at constructing turrets is an invitation to turtling, something Arena Net itself has been fighting since the introduction of "Victory or Death"), but also the speed in which more skills have been added to the game has been way faster than the game balancers could take.

In PvE, more variety is good - it's great, IMO. Having the most efficient build possible is secondary to having fun in PvE (unless you're farming, but that's a different thing), so more professions and more skills in that game mode translate to more ways of having fun. In PvP, I think it's the opposite - you need to be the most efficient as possible, otherwise you'll just lose. And the more skills and mechanics we have, more likely it is that some sort of gimmick will appear.

Compare current balance with what we had right before the release of Factions - sure, there were gimmicks then (IWAY!), but they were of limited scope and easily dealt with by skilled players (as far as I know, IWAY never really thrived in GvG, for example). Now, in other hand, we have layers over layers of gimmicks: teleporting assassins spamming cheap Deep Wound thanks to Dervish skills side by side to Rangers spamming skills at little to zero energy cost. More importantly, GW was at a higher competitive state before the release of Factions than it is now: War Machine, EViL and many other amazingly good guilds were around, but today many (if not most) of those have collapsed or lost interest (or both).

If Arena Net keeps the current split between PvP and PvE in GW2, I hope they take a lesson learned here: keep the PvP game contained with few skills, so balance is more likely to happen (and the game itself has less mechanics that could be abused), while introducing more variety with PvE-only professions and PvE-only skills. Not the horribly overpowered PvE-only skills we currently have (Ursan...), neither generic PvE-only skills that remove any difference between professions (Ursan...), but rather interesting concepts that would be more viable in PvE than in PvP. One example being the Dervish profession - if from the very beginning of Nightfall the Dervishes had been PvE only (with their current skills and current power level), the PvE game would have been greatly enriched, and the PvP game would have been spared of a high number of gimmicks (Avatar of Grenth, Avatar of Melandru, Wounding Strike, etc...). Erasculio 13:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Erasculio, I award you one master of the obvious title track. We've been saying fanservice shit was bad (mostly... Armond, Shard, readem, auron and now me to name a few) for a while now. GJ in summing it all up. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

IWAY's been (mostly) dealt with, not least because of the "fear me!" nerf. I'd think it'd be fine for new professions to be introduced for PvE, but not PvP, with GW2... but I kinda doubt that'll happen. No matter how much you explain to the public "yes, you get dervishes for PvE but not PvP because they make PvP not fun", people are always going to be ignorant and complain. -- Armond Warblade 19:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

At this time I'd like to point out that before new professions came out, it took skill to win, and aside from spirit spamming, only good players won tombs and gvg.

Erasculio, taking weapons and spirits out of pvp would kill rits. Spirits are already really weak in high-end play. Weapon spells just need a counter, or to be severely weakened. Dervish forms are elite and very interruptable, and you can still block and blind most of them. Paragon chants, again, are needed for the profession, izzy just needs to remove their stackability. However, I do agree that shadow stepping (especially offensively) should not happen in pvp.

Cursed Angel, being broken and unremovable doesn't even come close to making up for having only one weapon up. ~Shard (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

ANet should not remove skills from PvP, they'll just get called for coming up with a cop out. Removing professions becuase of disgruntled players not liking meta and being nostalgic is dumb too; just as only listening to people like me offer suggestions to buff and add to the meta is dumb, both sides views are necessary. PvP is in a good state overall, regardless of the fact that people complain all the time. They just need to work on getting things balanced, atm that's all (well GW2 of course). WoD and Weapon of Warding would be good places to start. I have no problem with quick and effective skills or unstrippable skills as long as they are in balance, but those two are not so. Then again Weapon of Warding is one of the easiest ways to deal with the easy spike damage scythes deal, so unless a few scythe attack skills are nerfed Weapon of Warding shouldn't be. On the otherhand Hex removal is nowhere near as effective as enchant removal, and given that holy veil is an enchant that gets striped before being able to remove hexes WoD is too effective. Given the current state of hex removal and WoD one either needs buffed or the other needs nerfed. Probably a little bit of both should happen, hex overload in 4 man can be very annoying, but praises to expel hexes.~>Sins WDB 14:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

"Removing professions becuase of disgruntled players not liking meta and being nostalgic is dumb" You obviously have no idea what we were talking about. I congratulate you for interjecting without knowledge and posting a tl;dr comment that didn't really add up to anything. Come again. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

TL;DR'd at "PvP is in a good state overall, regardless of the fact that people complain all the time." Ever played against shitway? Or SFway? Or hexway? Or in TA at all? -- Armond Warblade 18:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

shard, that was poki, not me. but however, i don't know if adding counters to weaponspells is a good idea but there's a few ways it can be done.

• make a few enchantment removal skills also remove weaponspells.

take whatever enchantment removal skill and make it also remove weaponspells, it'd maybe look ugly but whatever.

• turn a few skills into anti-weaponspell skills.

like causing dulled weapon to remove and make the hexed foe unable to be the target of weaponspells.

making mark of insecurity also halv the duration of weaponspells.

make pain of disenchantment also trigger on weaponspells.

make blinding surge also trigger blind on foes under weaponspells.

u get the idea.

the bad thing is that people don't use these kind of skills, like ignorance, vocal minority or roaring winds.

• nerf them.

like changing splinter weapon's damage to lightning and lower it to like 5..26..35.

like adding a number of times weapon of wardning can block, like the way they destroyed "Watch Yourself!"

--Cursed Angel 18:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Scythe bug

Different skills that trigger on attacking or hitting enemies work differently when using scythe attacks. For example, Vigorous Spirit will trigger every time you hit something, but Empathy only triggers once per swing, even if you hit multiple people. It's just something I noticed as I was playing - I don't know how SS, Insidious Parasite, or any of the other hit trigger skills work with scythes.

Also, when Counterattack hits multiple people, it gives back energy per each attacking enemy. ~Shard (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

When Barrage hits multiple targets, empathy / ss hit multiple times Dargon 15:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SS only triggers once per barrage. Same with empathy. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

No, Barrage triggers SS/empathy for every hit, unless they changed in the last 3 days since I've FoW'd. 72.235.48.41 01:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Barrage is up to 6 different attacks. A Scythe attack is a single attack which can hit up to 3 targets at once. The thing that doesn't make sense here is that Vigorous Spirit counts when you attack even if you miss, but will trigger for each hit on an AoE attack. I'm sure that was on purpose though. Empathy and SS are strictly per attack, reguardless of how many targets (if any) are hit. Barrage is multiple attacks and therefore triggers those multiple times. --TimeToGetIntense 08:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

These are handled on a case by case bases in code so they don't always work the same if a skill or combo feels too good with this or too weak without this post about it :) but the inconstancy is intentional even thou it's not well explained. Izzy @-'---- 18:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the skills should be worded how they work. For example, counterattack should say "You gain 1...5...6 energy for each attacking foe hit." ~Shard (talk) 21:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Escape

Do you know what it means? It's not called Chase Someone and Become Immune to Physical Damage, it's called Escape. Ends when you hit with a melee attack plz. ~Shard (talk) 23:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Now that you mention it (and comparing this with other warrior blocking stances), at least recharge could be upped a little... like 30s little.--Fighterdoken 23:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Ends upon hitting with a melee attack would be one option, another might be to make the dodge chance conditional "while not attacking". That'd be a slightly softer nerf, but still reduce its power on offensive characters. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 23:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

or make expertise not effect sycthe attacks, and screw sway the right way Antiarchangel NO U 23:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Shard actually posted a decent suggestion? It's a good one too. Make it end after using a melee attack. Apply the change to PvP only. P A R A S I T I C 00:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It would make a lot of sense, and it wouldn't make the skill any less powerful, except in builds where it is abused. Please apply to both PvP and PvE. 145.94.74.23 06:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

oh wow, another terrible suggestion, apply that change to PvP only 87.189.179.182 11:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

So escaping toward an enemy is a good mechanic? O ok. It's not a terrible suggestion, it's the way the skill should have worked the entire time. -Auron 11:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

it's like using "Fall Back!" or "Retreat!" when u run to attack someone, it should end when u attack. --Cursed Angel 11:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Or like using "Charge!" to run away! It should end then you stop attacking! — Poki#3 14:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Great minds think alike, eh shard? I just recently (Two days ago, in fact) made the same suggestion on my suggestion page. :D -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Great minds or not, this one is common sense. Also, I'm offended that someone thinks I "actually made a decent suggestion." 72.235.48.41 01:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Side note: I put "melee attack" so rangers could escape while using pin down or something of that nature. 72.235.48.41 01:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Common sense fails when you realise that skill names are only flavor text -_- — Poki#3 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Reguardless, this would be a good change. The R/D is the most degenerate melee build in the history of GW. --TimeToGetIntense 13:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow Shard making a not-retarded suggestion and I thought I'd seen everything on this wiki! Dark Morphon(contribs) 13:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not just flavor, it would be a decent change for a skill. Escape covers a ranger's major weakness (because the have additional armor vs elemental damage but not physical) AND gives him a +33% speed boost. That's a little over the top, espcially considering the low recharge of Escape. 145.94.74.23 21:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But is has great synergy with tease! --Readem 22:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

R/D is the most degenerate melee build? Has everyone forgetten about IWAY since the nerf already? Antiarchangel NO U

I'd just like to put forward a theory on the semantic question of the skill's name. Perhaps there's an implied ellipse that we're all simply missing, something along the lines of Escape... (from balanced fights). *Defiant Elements* +talk 03:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Iway wasn't degenerate, it was a joke that gave me lots of free fame. Also, even if skill names were only flavor (Dulled Weapon), escape makes rangers practically immune to physical damage and have a permasprint for the low low cost of 2 energy. Give monks an elite invincistance to counter it.

Forgot to sign. ~Shard (talk) 05:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Last I checked IWAY Warriors were able to suffer damage. It's this thing where your health lowers, if you take too much, you die. Generally, it helps lower the damage you take if you do not overextend. --TimeToGetIntense 10:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that was random. Do you have a point relevant to this discussion, or did you post that in the wrong place? ~Shard (talk) 11:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion topic atm was IWAY, perfectly relevant. Antiarchangel NO U 12:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Eviscerate is OP. That's a point related to IWAY, but still not relevant to this discussion. What does IWAY warriors taking damage have anything to do with Escape? ~Shard (talk) 07:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone said IWAY was more degenerate than R/Ds. Well. R/Ds take so little damage that they might as well not take any at all. This is the main thing that makes them degenerate. You cannot punish them for overextending. IWAY Warriors can't go into a 75% blocking stance, even if they brought one it would not give them a speed boost at the same time. Furthermore, R/Ds don't need IAS, they just spam strong attack skills chained with 1 second activation attack skills, so using the 75% block stance does not limit their offense at all, unlike a Warrior using a tactics stance. This makes them pretty much invulnerable to any damage, making them degenerate beyond your average scythe user (already quite degenerate). --TimeToGetIntense 09:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. That's how to properly make a point. You have done well, Grasshopper. That is exactly why Escape shouldn't be allowed to be used like this. ~Shard (talk) 10:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"Ends upon hitting with a melee attack would be one option".. a good option ? O'rly ? that would make this elite completely useless. Is that what you want, another useless skill ? ALLRIGHT KIDS, YEAH IZZY PLZ DO THAT. Simple minded kinds and their suggestions, awesome !

Why would it matter to a ranger that the skills ends if he uses a melee attack? 145.94.74.23 11:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am very simple minded when it comes to game balance; it is simple to me. The game should be fun and reward skill. That comes before making every skill viable. Rangers don't need Escape because they have Natural Stride. That's a whole different issue. The fact is R/D is horrible for the game. --TimeToGetIntense 12:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Outside Sway, no one ever uses Escape because there's better choices. It'd be nice to go with the "ends on melee" idea and give it some kind of buff. Maybe something related to condition removal... P A R A S I T I C 22:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not need a buff. For a standard Apply/Savage/DShot Ranger it is a strong skill, it's just not needed. They can do fine with Natural Stride and use a powerful offensive elite. This isn't bad for the game, all it really is, is if you don't have Nightfall you can do fine with Escape and use Pin Down and Hunter's Shot. Sure, you can't compete in high level play, but that is the nature of having 4 different games all with different strong skills. Escape does not need to be viable in high level play and trying to push it is a really bad idea. It's a fine skill now, it's the best it's gonna get. --TimeToGetIntense 00:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It could be somewhat useful to runners, maybe even flaggers. The skill itself is ok, when it gets abused, it is not. I like the idea of melee rangers, but they should never be better than their warrior/dervish counterpart (at best they should be just as good). Maybe it could get a PvP version that has "ends when you use a melee attack" so it can still be used as a tanking skill in PvE? 145.94.74.23 10:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

See my user page with alternate suggestion. TBH, I like that one much better. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Play the game

I know you're "working on GW2" a lot, but FFS, play a few rounds in HA, then a few in GVG, and fix all the bullshit that's flying around, or at least get somebody to do it. The joke of balance in this game isn't funny anymore. The only reason it sucks so much is that you don't even know what builds are being abused, which is an easily fixable problem.

The only thing that makes me not want to play GW (and GW2) is the balance. The graphics are great, the control style is easy and smooth. Only the balance blows, and it's the thing that matters most in a game. ~Shard (talk) 07:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Dude, you complained about Ranger interrupts being OP and you come talking about Izzy not playing the game? Don't you think you're a hypocrit now? Dark Morphon(contribs) 07:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you know what hypocrite means? ~Shard (talk) 10:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Shard on both points here... -- Armond Warblade 16:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Must...not... butt... in...ARGH.

Yo moma's a hypocrite, dark. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

all ur moms are hypocrites --Cursed Angel 23:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Please do something constructive and don't troll here. Dominator Matrix 23:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why? The suggestion speaks for itself. There is nothing else to add. I just used trolling to put dark morphon down. Wiki with mild trolling is better than wiki with no trolling. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No, trolling does not contribute to the wiki, sorry. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 15:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Poor skill suggestions don't either, and they're about equally frustrating :P -Auron 15:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course I know what it means, the thing I'm saying is that you're complaining about izzy not playing the game while you make retarded suggestions only a non-player would make. Clear now? Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I obviously don't play the game. All those halls wins and silver capes never happened and I don't have any pvp titles, which is why I get into r11 groups and used to guest for top guilds - they'll take practically anybody.

Now maybe you could tell me exactly what part of "play the game" is a bad suggestion. Get off this talk page. Nobody welcomes your inappropriate personal attacks. 72.235.48.41 04:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

without the QQing it'd be a good suggestion --Cursed Angel 09:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I wasn't talking about you mr anon. Second, it's just to piss shard off which is funny cuz he takes this srsly ;). Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:19, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol Morphan you're dumb. Bad trolling is bad. Click the anon's userpage link, you might learn something. -- Armond Warblade 17:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh it's pretty funny that people still take this page seriously isn't it Dark Morphan? Izzy's effort to communicate with the players is hilarious, isn't it? It's even more hilarious to troll the page and undermine his efforts further isn't it? --TimeToGetIntense 04:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm doesn't work on the internet, this proves it again ;). Dark Morphon(contribs) 15:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't totally own you at all. --TimeToGetIntense 00:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes I take GW somewhat seriously. Izzy's job, not hobby, Izzy's job is to balance the game. I'd take that seriously if I was him. Yes it's a game, but so is every sport ever created, and they take those VERY seriously.

Also, intense, you totally did ^^. ~Shard (talk) 04:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

HA is as gay as ever :/. GvG still revolves around gimmicks. HB was never cool. And yet, people still care? lolwut? --Readem 19:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Your

doing a great job at balance, don't listen to all these other nubs, they don't know shit for balance, imo they think vengeance is baed Droks 19:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

...Oni will now go to his altar,praying to god that this was a sarcastic joke. please excuse oni.Oni 19:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't. Droks is always like this. See his PvX userpage; he's obsessed with Vengeance. -- Armond Warblade 20:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[1] gogo energymanagement! --Cursed Angel 21:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

lol, I think the idea behind that build was to let half of the party to die and rez with unyielding for ene management :P. Also *cough*Nature's Renewal*cough* --MageMontu 21:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

cough, cough, cough Antiarchangel TROLL 21:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

..(points at my userpage,describing the hayt of this skill)Oni  05:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh. My. Gawd. In before hellstorm!!! -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If he thinks we are nubs, then that's the case. He has great famous builds, you can even find them on other users' namespace. —ZerphaThe Improver 16:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

GOGOGO Antiarchangel TROLL 16:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Question aboutt old tourny's

I was recently looking at the old tourny videos on the site and realized that all the teams have a ninth player, one being Admin Izzy, the other being Admin Isaiah in which Izzy was a Mo and Isaiah was a Mo/N. First question... why were you in on both teams during the tourneament? And second... why were you a Monk on one and a Mo/N on the other. My thoughts were that to kill yourself you went and degend yourself to death or bipped yourself to death with the Mo/N... but what about the Mo? Answers would be sexy.--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:24.195.135.159 (talk).

Answers would be sexy? lol — ク Eloc 貢 23:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A team can announce to have a redo before the gate opens, he was probably on the teams to verify if any team might do that. ~Shard (talk) 04:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We didn't have live observer mode back then for live shows, so I would use it so I can switch back and forth between any characters and put them on the big screen for the live people to see. Now we have an admin only live observer mode system so we can do this with observer mode. Izzy @-'---- 20:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have the big screen in your offices? ~Shard (talk) 21:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Storage Improvement.. maybe..?

Make a dye section of storage. That would be helpful. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 17:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

not izzy's job. --Readem 19:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Then whose is it? →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 20:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The designers. Try heading over to ArenaNet:Guild Wars suggestions. (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 20:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

What Readem and Aiiane said :P Izzy @-'---- 20:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

But Izzy the only person who actually reads our crap! →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 20:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats not true a lot of people read just not that many respond. As for more Dye storage, it's not very likely It would take a bunch of UI programmer time which is being used on other projects right now. : ) I used to save all my dyes and one day I just wanted the bag space so I sold them all and I just buy them when I need them, I found the best dye storage is the dye trader lol. Izzy @-'---- 20:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Lmao, I just keep a bunch of dyes just incase.. you know. But It's taking up alot of my slots. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 20:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So liquidate them, so you lose a bunch of money, but you gotta ask yourself if you could pay the same amount of money to gain some new slots you would you? :P Izzy @-'---- 20:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It would only be 50gp like the other slot expansion. xD. btw Izzy, you're awesome →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 20:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)