Feedback talk:Skill update previews/20100125

I use Soldier's Fury in pve. elix Omni 01:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

A lot of people do, and cracked armor will hurt the skill. Hell, it was the only real reason to take it over AR. Oh well...guess all para's have to continue playing Imbagons....

On another note, nerf to Quick Shot and buffs to Sundering/Penetrating Shots? Wtf is going on here....? Karate Jesus 02:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Bro, Quick Shot has been OP for far too long. elix Omni 02:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, that explains why the top build of Gamependium is a Quick Shot build. It's so OP. Oh....wait....Karate Jesus 02:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

if they didnt add the aftercast after it aswell, it can still be abused for quick 3-skill-spikes InfestedHydralisk 02:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, but wasting your elite slot for a skill that does no +damage would still make it weaker than a burning+followup spike. ~Shard 02:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

true that InfestedHydralisk 02:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yea....it was never used for a reason (and now it has even more of a reason not to be used). Karate Jesus 02:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

the only couple of times i saw it was when hunters shot got nerfed and used quick shot for quick condition spreading InfestedHydralisk 02:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Then they were bad. Mel's arrows + Poison arrow would have been faster. Karate Jesus 02:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Wtb pve skill changes. Stop being pvp molesters. Nerf shadow form again so we can find a new use for it. Change FoW so it matches UW in difficulty. Add something to tombs so its worth going back and doing. Factions was an amazing game. Nightfall was decent. Prophecies is not so much and EotN is only bought for the pve skills. Slavers' is kinda dead. To be perfectly honest this is hypocritical since I have no idea how one would fix these problems, but goodluck!Change shadow form <.< 75.142.8.189 02:53, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

PvE skill changes are next month (including the changes to SF and other farming skills). And even in this preliminary, PvP skill update there are some PvE skill changes. So, hopefully you'll get even more next month. Just hope that it's more than just what they've said. Karate Jesus 02:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

WTF is this kid on about, Prophecies was amazing, factions and nightfall killed guild wars.--TahiriVeila 03:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

75, clearly, you haven't the slighest idea what you're talking about. Firstly, UW is nearly impossible to complete without Shadow Form. There's nothing easy or hard about it or FoW. The problem is with the power creep these prophecies areas have gotten over the last four and a half years. ~Shard 03:11, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. FoW and UW are ridiculously EASY areas due to power creeps in SKILLS, not the areas :< Completing UW or FoW has never been difficult, shadow form just makes it so it's possible to complete both of them in ridiculously short times (I believe the records are at 21 mins for UW and 11 mins for FoW atm)--TahiriVeila 17:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh wow cripshot. --67.240.83.137 04:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

are these btw all the changes for the upcoming skill balance, or are there a few more to expect? InfestedHydralisk 04:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

After seeing this I'm not looking forward to PvE month... Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

bye godmode! InfestedHydralisk 21:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Bye UW! and possibly FoW. --Briar 21:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

SF and other farms/runs can go die now. I'm referring to PvE in general. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

i bet you can still lol roll through general pve afterwards InfestedHydralisk 21:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about SC. See Shard's rant of "Dhuum sucks" for further details. Id link you to it but for the life of me i cant seem to find it. --Briar 21:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

[1] Here is his "Dhuum Sucks" rant.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 00:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

What I said was meant towards alice. InfestedHydralisk 02:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Some feedback about caster skills

• Mirror of Ice energy(cost?) will increase to 15.

The finest example of dodging the problem instead of fixing it. The problem is not with the cost/casting time/duration/recharge, it's the effect. Giving Water Magic elementalists too much damage of course you can say that its water magic mesmers, but the problem is that with it Water Magic gets too much damage. It needs a functionality change.

• Cultist's Fervor will give 1...5...6 energy, will have a 25 second [sic] recharge, and will have its duration determined by your Soul Reaping attribute, rather than being a fixed 20 seconds. (The duration will be 5 seconds plus 3 seconds for every rank of Soul Reaping. The effects of the skill are still tied to the Blood Magic attribute.)

Ow great another number tweak. The problem with this skill is that it rewards spammy usage, which is either spamming of hexes, or Blood Magic spells for mesmers. An easier solution is to take Morphy's idea of changing it to something like a Blood Magic Ether Prodigy, which punishes too much spamming.

• Winter's Embrace will see its energy cost go up to 10 from 5 and its recharge go to 15 from 12. These changes are meant to weaken the skill a little without removing it from play. The 3/4 second cast time on this skill still makes it a very powerful and effective hex.

One positive idea, this version is perfectly balanced with powercreep removed. Don't forget to balance Freezing Gust too.

This is for now since I am in school. --Boro 09:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I kinda disagree with you on MoI i don't mind them having that much damage, as long as harder to maintain. Having a high cost or cast and a low duration:recharge ratio means you got to cast it more ofter and you're going to be more worried about being interuppted and stripped, cause thats going to hurt more when it this happens.

For CF, they arej ust getting it out of the hands of mesmers, thats all this change is, which have worked before with some water magic skills,--BobbyT 16:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The more important repercussions of the CF change are that it can't be used to spam 4+ 10-15 energy curse line spells on recharge. Bloodspike was never a HUGE issue and changes to prot line spells would have nerfed it enough anyway.--TahiriVeila 17:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

PvE?

Soldier's fury didn't need the PvE change. Ranger changes hurt them. You guys state in an interview that you know that PvE and PvP is a different game, yet you STILL nerf skills in PvE for the benefit of PvP, even with this skill split. "We didn't feel like it needed it" is not an excuse. If it's being changed for PvP, the PvP version should change. I'm glad for y'all in PvP because this seems like good news, but only bad news for PvE lol 76.188.221.120 09:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be extraordinarily helpful if they'd leave Soldier's Fury alone for PvE. It's a huge burden to spec IAS from some secondary for a herobot Paragon, and if we want to use an elite for an IAS with the massive, gigantic, enormous, downside of having a CAST TIME... well, I'm saying the skill is kind of weak to begin with, and cracked armor is throwing it under the bus to die. -- 06:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Dude your arguing with people who think PvE can be "Balanced". Give up. Aint nothing you can do to make em understand. --71.193.48.146 09:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The change to Soldier's Fury is bad in PvE when playing with heroes or henchmen. AI characters with condition removal will waste their energy (and their condition removal) trying to remove the Cracked Armor condition, only to have it reapplied a few seconds later, and then try to be removed again.

Regarding the other changes:

• Mirror of Ice: change doesn't really matter. IMO it's also not enough of a nerf for PvP, but anyway...
• Cultist's Fervor: too big of a nerf for PvE. I'm not sure enough players use it today in PvE to even warrant a split, but I doubt someone will begin using it after this nerf.
• Winter's Embrace: doesn't really matter, the skill is relatively weak in PvE.
• Ride the Lightning: doesn't matter, I doubt as many melee characters use it for PvE as they do in PvP.
• Needling Shot: doesn't matter, it's weak for PvE anyway. That kind of spike is far less useful in PvE than in PvP, considering how you don't even need to spike something to kill it in PvE.
• Soldier's Fury: bad change, as described above.

Erasculio 10:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It is always annoying to see a hero not cast a heal on you because it is locked in the aftercast of having just removed cracked armor from a paragon. The AI has a hard enough time maintaining energy as it is. The live team should remove cracked armor from both skills. Lucci Slevin 19:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Instead of causing cracked armor, Soldier's Fury and Aggressive Refrain could have -20 Armor as an skill effect. The heros/henches wouldn't waste energy to heal cracked armor and the downside of these two skills is preserved. Although it would be stacking with cracked armor, I think that's the better option. --195.202.166.190 12:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree, that's a good solution. Erasculio 13:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

cultists fervor doesnt hurt necros at all, unless you want to use it on different professions. soldiers fury just adds cracked armor on a para... in pve... enough said. InfestedHydralisk 10:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

^ Necros already have unlimited energy in pve. Taking cultists would be a MASSIVE waste of your elite. The change of PvP is excelent as well,as it simultaneously nerfs bspike and requires a heavy spec in both soul reaping + blood to make it worthwhile, nerfing the opportunity for it to be used to spam curse line hexes on recharge. The only thing I'm kind of disapointed in is a-net's failure to address long duration, fire-and-forget spells (VoR, backfire, empathy, IP, faint to name the big problem causers). --TahiriVeila 17:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The change to CF won't affect hex necro, it's still maintainable at R7 in Soul reaping, which leaves you with still alot of points to spend in both blood and curse, that change will only hurt FC blood spike and curse nercos will work around it--BobbyT 17:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

In case you didn't notice jethro, they also nerfed the energy return. And before the nerf you didn't have to invest any points into SR b/c you already had lolenergy at 12 blood/14 curse. Now you're doing to have to spec 6 points into SR and (unless you're willing to run dual majors on a squishy) you're only going to get a 5e return on spells. For faint and barbs/rigor that's still a pretty decent return, but it REALLY hurts your ability to spam IP/suffering on recharge like you should be. And that's not even mentioning that a smart mesmer will drain your CF (which has no cover enchant b/c it never needed one with such a short recharge/long duration) and have your cabailities cut big time for 25 seconds.--TahiriVeila 19:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

One more time. Balance in PvE. Lolwut? --71.193.48.146 19:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Glass Arrows

5...11...12?Glass Arrows only deal 2~3 more damage than Expert Focus,nobody will take it. Jary Cai 11:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Expert Focus only adds damage to attack skills. Although I do agree that new Glass Arrows will be lolbad. elix Omni 16:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It's effectively a removal of the skill from play. You can argue as to whether or not that's bad, idrc. I would've preferred to see a duration or recharge nerf so that it could only be maintained 2/3-3/4 of the time, but with the nerfs to LR and basically all of the spike damage capabilities of a ranger, it doesn't really matter anyway.--TahiriVeila 17:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Arrow attack recovery time

Will the added 1/2 second be for all bow attack skills in both pve and pvp or just pvp? --JonTheMon 17:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Both. Hence the shortening of the pve skills' activation time. elix Omni 17:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Crip Shot Problem

* Crippling Shot's arrows will move twice as fast as normal.

I really think that this is going to become a very large issue. You have a skill that can cripple a target for 9.1 seconds @ 12 spec(Marks)(7 + 2.1(Cripple Bow Mod)) that is unblockable and 5 energy @ 12spec(Expertise). This affords the ranger class the most movement control as well as a very defensive bar. Also the change to this skill also affects Base NPCs.

Now they have an unblockable/undodgable cripple skill. This change is bad for the game as one of the defining skills a player can have is the ability to dodge crip shot upon entering the base. However now splits will suffer more damage from NPCs because their movement control will be reduced.

You Also have to take into the account how this 1 skill can affect the GvG Game in terms of a survival tank that can permanently snare your Flagger. Cripshot has been a problem because of this before. ShortyFtw 18:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Considering no one runs at more than 9 marks and the prevelence of life sheath prots, it's not a problem. Add that to the fact that rangers are SUPPOSED to have movement control and superior split play and it's a fine change. Get a better flagger or learn to drop your prot back.--TahiriVeila 19:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just dumb, but what npcs? And it's still a huge buff, and I'm not sure how having a better flagger will do much about that, but I doubt it will be as much of a problem as it would have in the past. --67.240.83.137 19:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Archer??? Where is crip shot. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Have you played gvg before? Also where did i ever mention NPCs anon?--TahiriVeila 22:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It might 'move twice as fast as normal' on a longbow etc, but see the notes in Read the Wind (PvP), but then again they can make it work like favorable winds and actually increase the arrow speed. I wonder if the change will actually affect the recurve flight time. --Draygo Korvan 22:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The npcs was for Shorty, sorry. --67.240.83.137 02:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Quick Shot Nerf

Hey, I have an idea. Let's nerf every terribly broken skill in the game. I think Signet of Removal, Word of Censure, Amity, Keystone Signet, Mist Form, Soul Twisting, Cautery Signet, etc. could all be brought down to size. Go get them Anet/TK! Karate Jesus 18:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Saving those ones for February.--TahiriVeila 19:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

They should make quick shot an exception, you know, to make it actually worth its elite status... --Draygo Korvan 01:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and we all know Ride the Lightning was so OP'd. They'd better counter-buff QS and RtL to make up for their aftercasts now. Those were the only things making them semi-viable. (Update preview kill count: 8.) -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 04:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Update - Thursday, February 25, 2010

Shadow Form has for a long time been far too good as a tanking skill. The assassin has almost entirely eclipsed all other professions as tanks. Today we've gone ahead and implemented a functionality change to Shadow Form in order to reign it back and stop Assassins from being too good at what they're not meant to do. At the same time, we've been working on new functions for old skills to bring them into the game. This update took a lot of time and effort from everyone, and we have the Test Krewe to thank this month for giving us some extra hands and valuable feedback and insights for this project:

• Shadow Form: Elite Enchantment Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, you cannot take or deal damage from attacks.
• Mist Form: Elite Skill. For 5...32...60 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss.
• Amity: Elite Skill. Defeats every foe in the dungeon that you are currently in and awards 1,200...1,350...1,500% more reputation and gold. For 60 seconds, your party is guaranteed to get the most valuable item upon opening the dungeon chest.
• Word of Censure: For 120 seconds, our favorite players can do whatever they want. If you were targeting another player, they are permanently banned and you gain 250 Globs of Ectoplasm.

I think they want to do what they did with Mystic Healing in the past: nerf it before it may or may not be a problem. However, if Glass Arrows gets nerfed in the same update, I wonder how Quick Shot can ever be a problem. Koda Kumi 22:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Anet fails at ranger balancing

This update effectively nerfs already weak bows into the garbage. They won't be good for DPSing or spiking. How about removing quick casting bow attacks and increasing the damage?

Because ANet would rather do this To a skill than just do something smart for once and put a proffession cap on PvP to stop "Hardcore" PvP'ers from whining about everything. --71.193.48.146 19:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Stop bitching, rangers were never meant to be damage dealers because ranged spike damage is seriously overpowered. They've always been meant to be toolbox characters, spreading pressure through degen, interrupts, and snares. It's a GOOD thing that anet is pushing them back into that roll instead of promoting the LOLOLOLWTACHMEPUMPYOURASSFROMACROSSTHEMAP role they've developed into--TahiriVeila 19:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

If by "Toolbox" you mean "Cookie cutter" then yes. They are. --71.193.48.146 19:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

How is the only profession that combines ranged interrupts, snare, and degen cookiecutter? Do you even know what cookiecutter means?--TahiriVeila 19:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Honestly idc if you think im wrong but i used it in the context that every single person running a ranger has to run the same build. $20 says that if you roll a ranger i can list off 7 out of 8 skills in your bar. Which is what i was reffering to. --71.193.48.146 19:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Right because burning arrow, cripshot, melshot, and IA all play exactly the same. There's no extreme tactical differences between how each bar should be played. And no one ever runs R/A, R/D, R/W, or R/P in HA/arenas, those builds are just complete suq! You need to stop whining about how bars are similar and realize that while they may contain similar skills each ranger bar plays EXTREMELY differently from the other. PLEASE LEARN TO PVP BEFORE YOU BITCH AND MOAN PEOPLE.--TahiriVeila 19:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I was actually referring to builds that AREN'T gimmicks. Any ranger thats not using a bow is a gimmick. No matter how ya look at it. That being said, ONE skill being different in your bar doesnt mean your not a cookie ranger. And..... Yes, they pretty much all do play the same. Which you said right after you seemed to imply that they dont. --71.193.48.146 19:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for proving that you have no idea how to play a ranger. You can go now.--TahiriVeila 19:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

"Right because..... all play exactly the same. Theres no extreme tactical differences between how each bar (which tbh should be elite skill cuz the rest of the bar is always the same) should be played" Ty for contradicting yourself and proving my point. You can go now. --71.193.48.146 19:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Sarcasm?! On the internet?! Misery 19:53, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Motorola is putting out a phone with a button that has a capital S with an exclamation mark through the middle of it. You're supposed to use it to indicate sarcasm. Should we distribute them to anons?--TahiriVeila 20:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Distribute them to retards. --Frosty 20:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry i figured you couldn't actually be serious about there being a massive difference in how the elite skill makes you play your ranger. Because guess what, it doesn't. --71.193.48.146 20:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

This thread keeps getting more and more amusing XD--TahiriVeila 20:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

"Should we distribute them to anons?": it's not an anon, it's Briar, who has a perfectly good reason to avoiding to sign up these days (S!S... Or S!...Or !S!). Erasculio 21:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

That was necessary. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course it was. Its terribad and instablock if i troll anyone, But if anyone trolls me its fine. Didntcha hear? :D --Briar 22:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

"...the only profession that combines ranged interrupts, snare, and degen..."

O, you mean other than these? Cool. -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 03:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer degen is awful and can't be spread party wide, unlike the ranger's ability to quickly spread poison, bleeding, and burning to entire teams. Most mesmer snares are a joke, with ridiculously high energy costs/cooldowns as they're not MEANT to snare. And their interrupts have relatively long recharges while ranger interrupts rehcarge in five or ten seconds. In other words rangers are toolbox/utility characters while mesmers are hex/interrupt shutdown characters. There's a difference.--TahiriVeila 05:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Quick Reminder

Chants and shouts causing your armor to become cracked makes no sense, I just wanted to let Anet and the Test Krewe know that. This really reeks of "We're not really trying." So the fury of the paragon is mutating the incoming sound waves of someone's shouting, and these mutated sound waves become so powerful they crack his armor. So did all of Anet and all 100+ of the TK miss this oddity of a skill effect or is something else going on here? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

TK doesnt give a rat shit about that. They only care about a (screwed up IMO) Sense of "Balance" in pvp. --Briar 21:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Briar, are you on the Test Krewe? Then please don't act like you know what they care about. kthxbai. ThrainFile:User Thrain Sig.pngcontribs 21:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Ill bet everything i own you cant name one person on the TK that gives a rat shit about that kinda thing. I however can name at least 3 on the TK that dont give a rat shit about that kinda thing. Proof is in the coding. --Briar 21:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Well then maybe the test krewe was a bad idea if they don't care about glaring flaws. If I'm missing how Soldier's Fury is supposed to sensibly crack your armor then please set my perspective straight, otherwise I'm stumped and irritated. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

"Chants and shouts causing your armor to become cracked makes no sense": quick reminder, that has been in the game long before the Test Krewe. Erasculio 21:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

May-hap, in his rage, the para busted up his armor? you know, like this guy [2] --Briar 21:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

And now with the TK, we're set to have another skill that makes no sense... So the point still stands. This isn't TK hate I just want to hear some kind of official explanation and maybe inspire someone to be more creative. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 22:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Ohshi I shot my bow in this way that 6 other arrows came out at once it was freaky! --Frosty 22:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Oshit, i mumbled this really weird funky chant and it brought people back from the dead!--TahiriVeila 22:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, paragons shouldn't be complaining, -20 armor is a REALLY low price to pay for 100% uptime, unstribbale IAS, considering that the only other profession that is capable of it in pvp has to pay for it by taking double damage, cutting damage bigtime, or by building up adren and and snaring yourself. People REALLY complain too much about anet actually FIXING THE POWER CREEP FOR ONCE. --TahiriVeila 22:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Arrow in each of the spaces between your fingers. Barrage is easy to explain. 6 of them is a little... Strange.... to be sure. But still. The mechanics work if you have enough fingers for it. =P --Briar 22:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Just a little FYI: the TK doesn't make the decisions about what happens in game. All they do is *test* mechanics and ideas the Live Team proposes. They do not work for Anet, nor do they make judgement calls about content. Its like the people who get to be test audiences for films...those testers are not the directors or the producers, and therefore do not make decisions, they just watch the movie and say "I like this, I like that, I hate this, I hate that". Keep in mind that what the Live Team decides is that the Live Team decides, and if those choices are bad, then the Live Team is still responsible for what they put into the game.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 22:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

ITT: ANET doesn't care about singing africans.
srsly tho, ... stop fucking nerfing normal paragon skills AND JUST NERF "SAVE YOURSELVES" ALREADY. Everyone knows it's the #1 focus of imbagons. Everyone knows it's a broken crutch to make warriors seem useful in lol-PVE. Just Boon the damn thing already and uncomplicate 99% of this cyclical horseshit. --ilr 20:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

"Our tests showed the damage-increasing skills to still be viable in general"

→ moved from Feedback talk:Skill update previews

I'm sorry, but the new Keen arrow and Glass Arrows are in no way viable for any kind of serious use. Keen arrow at 6 base damage is a joke, and Glass Arrows at max damage of 12 makes it arguably worse than Expert focus. Master Ketsu 21:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

/agree... it seems that ANET wants the Ranger to be nothing more then a Condi-Pressure/Spreader and Ruptor. That is clearly evident with the nerf to the damage skills and the buff to condition related skills (Hunter's Shot and Crip Shot). Though, I must say that Crip Shot's quick recharge, unblockable and soon to move x2 times faster is somewhat attractive. Lower the recharge of Hunter's and you got yourself a conidtion spread machine (w/ Apply Poison ofcoarse). But then again... don't all the Archer's in GvG have Crip Shot? Which means that if anyone tries to split to the other team's hall, they will be snared and possiably trapped... making spitting harder? One thing I do find interesting is Power Shot. Armor-Ignoring? On a Pre-Searing skill? And this comes out days after an interview with Lindsey about not infringing on the balence of Pre-Searing. - SabreWolf 21:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

!!!!!ALERT: THEY DO NOT USE CRIPPLING SHOT!!!!! --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Aliceandsven (talk).

Maybe they'll start making Pre-Searing only versions of skills. ThrainFile:User Thrain Sig.pngcontribs 22:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Psst, don't say that too loudly... poison has a pre-searing only version with -1 life degen --195.202.166.190 00:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Pindown, my bad... next time don't be a dick when you correct somebody... - SabreWolf 06:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just making it super-apparent so that everyone knows. Not everyone knows but now they knows. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 21:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I wish they'd look at some skills nobody ever uses first

The list is way too long to really address, but you all know them, those skills that are just so inferior that nobody uses them... why not pay some attention to them? At least numbers tweak them if a full reinvention is too much. Previously Unsigned 23:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Because one of the reasons why the game is in such a mess is the power creeping Arena Net has been introducing for years and that peaked at Nightfall. Considering how long they take to nerf skills after buffing them into being overpowered (see Shadow Form), it's a very good thing that Arena Net is focusing on nerfing skills now.

Also because the game has too many skills. Even at its peak, with the full team dedicated to GW1, Arena Net lost control over the game's balance some months after release. Now, with more than one thousand skills and less than Arena Net's full team, they are never going to balance everything. The ideal solution would be to remove skills from the game, in order to reach a manageable number of skills (and we would eventually end with more viable skills than we have today). Since Arena Net is not going to directly remove skills (only indirectly, see Smiter's Boon), the closest we can have to that is keeping skills nerfed to the point in which they don't have to be considered when trying to balance the game. Erasculio 23:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I like choice though. <_< Can't they pin down some skills that never get used and draw some out of hat and fix those? 71.161.202.16 01:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

They do something like that once in a while. Results usually include a worsening of the power creeping. Erasculio 01:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok why can't they exactly ever get it right then on the first try? Or make a new version of a skill then make a weaker/stronger version and compare? 71.161.202.16 01:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Because skills not sucking = Powercreep = Winey PvP'ers. Simple equation pal. =D --Briar 01:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The game has way too many skills. There are too many variables to consider; if something is balanced based on its recharge, there are skills which will change its recharge; if a skill is an attack, there are at least a dozen ways to make it stronger by combining it with other skills; if it's a hex, there's the entire issue of making it useful by itself without worsening hex-stacking, and so on.

Balancing all that is not easy. I have no idea why, but Arena Net appears to be fond of making massive skill changes followed by long periods in which they don't change almost anything, so whenever they drop a big update, it takes them months to fix only (some of) the problems introduced in said update, leaving all the older problems around for a very, very long time. A more gradual approach with more frequent and smaller updates would probably work better, but... Erasculio 01:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I actually dislike the way this update looks to be going. I am okay with power creep, and have read no argument to make me change my mind. I am however, bored with GW. Used to be one of the most exciting things was starting GW and then watching the grey bars fill up, because it meant that some skills had received new functionality. Now when that happens its always just some crappy pve update. The game is naturally balanced by the fact that all players have access to all the same skills and all the same gear.

Don't get to run the build you call "balanced"? well boo-hoo for you. I keep hearing the argument that build x takes no skill and only wins because its overpowered. so run it, and defeat these "unskilled" players.

I understand the desire for diversity or an RPS meta, but an RPS meta simply results in games being decided before they begin. Keeping the game in a state of flux would keep it interesting, with no "wiki" builds being able to dominate. I want to be able to try something new each time I log on. Messing around with the numbers does nothing to make the game more interesting. I havent logged on for any length of time in ages, simply because I've done everything, and played every build. I may not be a HA or GVG player, but I am not a pve player either. I consider myself to be probably the best monk in RA. I love the skill-test involved, requiring you to adapt to your team and opponents.

This update, with its tweaked numbers will do nothing to make the game interesting again. Aiming for some "perfect" game with all builds at some arbitary power level is a goal doomed to failure. Accept that one build will always be objectively stronger than all the others. This is a Game. It needs to be fun.Sepia 02:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Will you marry me? <3 --Briar 02:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) "I am okay with power creep" -> "so run it, and defeat these "unskilled" players" -> "I am however, bored with GW". Self defeating argument. Erasculio 02:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Omitting parts of what was said doesnt make you look smart. Fyi. --Briar 02:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Failing to read (and to indent) doesn't make you look smart, either. Erasculio 02:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

if you feel there is some flaw in what i have typed, please explain it to me. Sepia 02:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

O.o I dont know where i failed to read anything or to indent. Either way, If 1 player is supposedly "better" than another player, and they have the same builds, then the "Better" player should win. Which was the point of your second quote. Being bored with guildwars just means they need to introduce something new or rework some stuff instead of messing around with numbers. I think YOU failed to read there. Not me. /shrug dont matter though cuz your not gonna listen to anyone that thinks the same way as you. Either way. idc. --Briar 02:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) "I am okay with power creep": and with power creeping, making a build more powerful than everything that came before, there is only one option:

"so run it, and defeat these "unskilled" players": otherwise you would lose.

So we have a situation in which, if you are not running the overpowered build, you lose. Which could pretty much be described as "games being decided before they begin".

It's also a situation in which "I want to be able to try something new each time I log on" is not possible - if one build is better than all the others and you need to run that build to win, you don't get to choose which build you are going to play, rather you have to pick a specific build if you want to win.

Being forced to play a specific build in order to win, regardless of what you would like to play at any given time, and regardless of how you may not like said build, is something you believe players would see as fun? Or is it something that would drive players to say, "I am however, bored with GW"?

Diversity, so you can actually try different things whenever you log in, is only possible if there are multiple viable options; in other words, if the game is balanced. Erasculio 02:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The flaw in your logic is the assumption that power creep creates a singular overpowered build.Sepia 02:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"Accept that one build will always be objectively stronger than all the others". Erasculio 02:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

So you dont accept this?Sepia 02:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"I want to be able to try something new each time I log on" This would only be possible in a game that reinvents itself. Eventually you find yourself in the situation in which I now find myself, where all options have been mastered to the level where only my concentration level dictates how well I perform. This is boring because it lacks challenge.(edit conflict).Sepia 02:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. So you would like a situation in which the pool of available skills is constantly being changed, allowing players to try different things. That's already implemented in Guild Wars, and it's called Codex Arena, in which players are only allowed to pick skills among a list that changes daily.

And one of the many reasons why Codex Arena is dead (notice how no one even bothers to update the skill list here) is how one day is enough for players to realize which one is the overpowered build of the day, and then follow it. Which means, unless you would expect Arena Net to radically change the functionality of skills more than once a day (and I don't need to point how unrealistic that is), we would still end with a single overpowered build per each skill cycle. Players would be forced to play that build, regardless of what they want to play, in order to win; it would be a build purely given by Arena Net. Basically Costume Brawl, one of the most limited PvP styles in GW. Do you think that would be fun? Erasculio 02:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with CA is how underpowered it feels to play it. Most of the time you are running a pair of healers, simply because they are so underpowered, or perhaps a healer + blindbot. The lack of skill cohesion prevents a single build being able to spike (as shock axe/bb sin/DH do in ra), so a team has two options: either vent spikes, which are impossible for the PUGS, or pressure, which is ineffective due to the heavily defensive nature of the opposing teams. This means that vent teams just win, and the pugs get bored of being farmed. So no one goes there any more. it has nothing to do with the builds, but the lack of fun. Players want to feel they are doing something awesome:

Playing in fast forward as a PR, Dshotting a woh that that opens up the way to your teams victory, hitting the infuse on a team mate that otherwise would have died to a near perfect spike, spiking an opponent that strayed just too far from his healer (ala boa), or just plain nuking everything. The skills that make people sad are the skills that stop these things, which is why people cry about Bsurge so much. Of course Bsurge appeals to some players too, and I am in no way advocating its removal.

My point it that these number tweak edits do not make a player feel they are doing something awesome, or that they have discovered something new. There is no fun.Sepia 03:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"not make a player feel they are doing something awesome": and isn't "Playing in fast forward as a PR, Dshotting a woh that that opens up the way to your teams victory, hitting the infuse on a team mate that otherwise would have died to a near perfect spike, spiking an opponent that strayed just too far from his healer (ala boa)" "awesome"? Erasculio 03:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying. please use sentences.Sepia 03:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Aren't your own quotes sentences? But if you need more clarification: you claim that the current updates "do not make a player feel they are doing something awesome", so you wouldn't have fun. But "Playing in fast forward as a PR, Dshotting a woh that that opens up the way to your teams victory, hitting the infuse on a team mate that otherwise would have died to a near perfect spike, spiking an opponent that strayed just too far from his healer (ala boa)" and similar things are "awesome", are they not? Erasculio 03:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

They certainly do feel great to play until you master them. We need more new experiences though, or a game grows stale. That is why we need new functionality added to our skills. "Balanced" PR doesn't feel very different from playing PR just after it received its new functionality.Sepia 03:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Which is why "only my concentration level dictates how well I perform" is wrong. In any PvP match, how well you perform relies on you, true, but also on your team and on the team you are against. Given how no two teams play exactly the same way, and given how a balanced game gives so much varierty that you would find many different builds when playing, the game itself provides you with plenty of "new experiences", especially when considering all available PvP modes. Erasculio 03:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

My point is not that game balance is a bad thing. I don't mind how many builds are viable, and i suppose more than a few is not a bad thing. The priority however, should be getting these builds to change, so that the way in which we play the game changes.Sepia 16:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The way I see it, is A-Net needs to nerf all the good skills at the same time (indirectly buffing the bad skills) or not at all. Buffing all the weak skills can be done one at a time, allowing them to not have to do it all at once (and buffing max HP again to compensate for the overpowered skills already in the game). -~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) 04:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Lmfao. Making good skills suck does not make sucky skills suck less. It just makes the rest of the game suck. --Briar 21:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Except, like, that is not what is happening. Everyone in GvG is running 1 out of 2 viable builds because they are better than every other option by far. That some skills are getting axed is a monir inconvenience compared to a completely stale high-end PvP game. Koda Kumi 22:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Please do NOT start bitching because people are actually running dom balanced for once. The gvg meta is far better atm than it's been since before the december 2008 update.--TahiriVeila 22:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

^tbh. when the current meta [3] is actually CALLED balancedway then i dont think there's to much to complain about. --Briar 22:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Your fault in logic is that it's not called balanced because the skills are balanced. It's called balanced because teams are made up of differing professions.

GW doesn't have so many skills that balance becomes impossible. In fact, for a game with only 1300 usable pvp skills (many of which are near copies), that shouldn't even be coming up. The problem is that most skills are too strong and they all counter each other too well (or in some cases, not at all). ~Shard 07:24, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Balanced is called balanced because it is a (guess what) Balanced build, not in terms of Overpowered skills, but in terms of the builds ability to deal with the current meta. --Frosty 09:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

What do mirrors do??

• Mirror of Ice: For x seconds, [you are immune to spells / you reflect spells back to their source]. (Optionally) You cannot cast spells on [foes / yourself / allies].

Make it a Mist Form except for spells, since water is utility/defense and everyone is experiencing butthurt over damage in water. Yes or no? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 17:31, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

no Pika Fan 17:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Mirrors won't stop flaming rocks to the face, so I'll go with Pika on this one. ~~000.00.00.00~~ 17:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a yes/no question, you aren't supposed to explain why. Pika Fan 17:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

And you think that matters to me... why? ~~000.00.00.00~~ 17:52, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

You need to obey the rules of the game :(. Pika Fan 17:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

THE GAME? What game? you just lost it Thanks! NuVII 18:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Make it so that hostile spells cause casters to become snared for a bit while taking cold damage? Sounds suitable for "Mirror of Ice" even though it'd probably suxorz. *shrugs* --Ulterion 18:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Well I figured, in a magical world a mirror magically made from ice would be magically reinforced to be more resilient than your average real world mirror, in the case of immunity. In the case of reflection, focusing your spell on someone protected by the mirror would sortof cause it to be focused on you instead. Maybe I'm just a huge FF fanboi but reflection would be interesting as a GW mechanic, and not overpowered or imbalanced in my opinion. Also feel free to explain why you said yes/no Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

You could always:

Mirror of Ice" (5 seconds plus 2 seconds more for every rank of Energy Storage) Damage from hostile spells against you is reduced by 10...42...50%, one random adjacent foe is hit for 10...42...50% of the original damage.

Not exactly FF, and no I'm not basing the figures off anything serious, it's used as an example. It becomes more of a defensive skill: it reduces damage, but the spell still hits, so On Hit effects would still work such as the knock down from Meteor while providing a bit of reflected damage to one hostile target close to you. Probably not a very serious example, you'll have to forgive me, I'm a little tired. ~~000.00.00.00~~ 21:26, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think 50% damage reduction on a snare user would be abused pretty hard. By other professions, even. D'oh, Energy Storage. But it would still be abused by Water Elementalists pretty hard, depending on energy, recharge, etc. --Kyoshi (Talk) 04:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

i dont see even 1 assasin skill...

→ moved from Feedback talk:Skill update previews

^ ...(Warriors are balanced.They dont need updating.)--Neil2250 The Render Nazi 11:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What's an "Assasin"? — Poki#3 (talk) 20:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Grammar nazi much? Reaper of Scythes** 20:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

you're actually supposed to tell someone that says something like that to shut the fuck up and stop being terrible. just so you know, for the future. MAFARAXAS 03:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

[4]Check this video out it explains it all on the perma nerf...[5]

this is me giving a FUCK about mesmer balancing -.- how bout you fix the OP shit and this game won't be terrible. --68.76.147.224 16:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Gj on two month late reply! --Neil2250 , Render Lord 16:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)