Feedback talk:User/Dan Dan Teddy Bearz/Can we finish what we start, for a change?

Feel free to discuss.

We killed everyone who mattered in both the White Mantle and the Stone Summit. When additional Mantle and Summit leaders were introduced, we killed them too. Neither group poses a significant threat anymore. How did we run away, exactly? --Irgendwer 06:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

The elimination of different "groups" such as white mantle or stone summit dwarves might be included in Guild Wars Beyond. I don't know exactly what happens/happened, but the White Mantle were dealt with during War in Kryta right? --Eclipse143 07:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Completely? I thought they simply scattered to regroup rather than disband. I like that we revisited the problem with the stone summit in EotN and white mantle in WiK, but I meant returning to finish what we started in Prophecies either directly after defeating the Lich or some time before the end of that campaign. I didn't like that we simply forgot them directly after taking the Lich down, marking the supposed end of the campaign. I don't want to leave a campaign "unfinished" just to revisit elements from it in campaigns later, because we would then have to wait for those campaigns to be released. Not knowing whether we're going to tie our loose ends or not until the next release bugs me. As mentioned, I understand now the significance of leaving the charr to run amok as they were, but at the time it really bothered me. I hope that if we are to run from our enemies in GW2, we either return to fight them before the campaign has ended or some hint is given that leaving them be for the time will serve its purpose later on. I simply don't want to feel like a coward or half-a**.Dan Dan Teddy Bearz 23:52, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

A) It's a game. B) If you "tie up all the loose ends" during the primary release, there's nothing to go back to. I mean, where would we be right now for new stuff to do if we didn't have the Mantle to go back to for WiK? (as well as all the rest of the stuff they have planned for GWB) I personally don't expect any storyline to be completely finished ever, as it leaves open endless possibilities for more. I mean, ArenaNet does not have the resources to give us another expansion that would include new maps and armor and all that that entails, but they are able to provide us with these ongoing stories within the story. I find it to be a wonderful way of giving players new stuff to do, whithout the massive expenditures on new art that developing brand new areas require. -- Wyn talk 00:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

A) Really? I so thought it was real life. 9_9 B) Factions and Nightfall were completely different stories, both basically finished with little, if anything, to return to tie up. It clearly isn't such a difficult feat. Even EotN is all new art and maps, aside from the world map. Recycling is fine, but only if the problems are new. Returning to old problems three campaigns later is like saying "Oops, we totally forgot about you guys. Now that we don't have to think of anything new and exciting, but still want to keep people interested, let's clean up this mess we left behind after so long." If they wanted to leave a cliffhanger for upcoming content, they could have just made that their next campaign, instead of Factions. Instead, they waited three campaigns to throw it in as some mini-campaigns to keep the player base somewhat distracted until the release of GW2. That's pretty cheap.Dan Dan Teddy Bearz 01:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, the flaw in the thought that they could have made it their next campaign is that the intention was that each campaign would be a stand alone game with their own storylines and timelines, which in fact they are. EotN as an expansion goes back and expands on the story of Prophecies (2 campaigns later). You need to keep your timelines more fluid rather than real world linear as you seem to be which is what I meant by it's a game. That they are now going back to storylines that were started in real time 5 years ago is meaningless to the timeline in virtual world of Tyria. -- Wyn talk 01:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

gw proph pve had some of the worst storytelling in any game ever - but keep in mind proph only existed to prepare players for pvp, which was (at that time) the only real endgame content, so no real effort went into tying up loose ends. factions and NF were both made with the mindset that pve is its own product, so as games they felt much more complete. -Auron 01:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I can buy that answer. The one directly above. As for the reply above that, I'm just saying they didn't have to wait so long and that I hope they don't make the same mistake in GW2.Dan Dan Teddy Bearz 06:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC

Well in NF we didnt kill JOKO and look whats happened to elona now lol. This is a prime example of the cause and effect that anet are trying to implement.212.139.253.4 14:12, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

TBH, the only threat we didn't "run away from" was the clean up. And even then, we stuck around for some. For Prophecies: We left the charr because it was intended to return with some force built up from Kryta - which needed to have the civil war fixed - Kryta wasn't stable at all during Prophecies so we couldn't return to take out the charr. For the Stone Summit we did return. Killing Dagnar in THK (when we repaid our debt to the dwarves) and destroying Sorrow's Furnace ended the war between the Stone Summit and Deldrimor - the SS that remained were exiled to the Far Shiverpeaks. The Stone Summit threat was done for with Prophecies - and in EN they're hardly a threat. A mere afterthought.

For the White Mantle, we killed two of three original members and their inner council (the last person left apparently high tailed it out of Kryta), along with most of the Mursaat - the Mursaat threat was gone. Why our characters didn't see to the end of the Mantle until 9 years later is a good question - however there was a more immediate threat which we had to clean up, and the Shining Blade were still live and active (although the dialogues in Droknar's Forge (explorable area) don't make much sense when taking Defend Denravi into consideration...).

Then comes Factions - Shiro we dealt with, but the plague and Shiro'ken still needed hunting down - sadly, there was no Titan Quests-esque set up for that, so that is a clean up we didn't fix.

With Nightfall, we the IP just above me notes, we didn't take out Joko. But there probably wasn't much need - honestly who knows on that case, perhaps he was not viewed as a threat in light of a giant margonite attempting to overthrow a god - another bit of cleanup we do.

Outside that, the only thing left unsettled is Menzies - the final member of the "unholy trinity" (Abaddon, Dhuum, Menzies) that is unaccounted for. -- Konig/talk 04:23, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Were the corsairs in Istan settled? I don't remember. And did the two quests in Kaineng really settle the Jade Brotherhood and Am Fah issues? Also, why leave the Kurzick and Luxon to continue their hostilities? Just for PvP? Not to mention Kaineng's economy or the fact that Kourna, through Varesh, was at war with Istan, through the council. Were those declarations simply forgotten? Has Kourna taken responsibility for its invasion of Istan, through Varesh? Did Istan just dust itself off and say "It's cool, bruh."? Reality may be an endless amalgam of stories with neither a beginning or end, but this is fiction. Leaving behind forgotten plot elements is a no-no. Teddy Dan, yo. 06:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The corsairs aren't an organized threat on a whole - the organized part was settled (they no longer were funded by Kournans). They're the equivilant of pirates (in fact, that's what they are), so really they're pretty much "any fella who wants to rob people" - so it's literally impossible to "settle" that threat.

At the end of Factions, there was no hostilities - that restarted sometime within the next 6 years after Factions - read the dialogue and you'll see there was peace which the Kurzicks hoped to maintain, but the Luxons were wanting to use to rebuild their strength. There was no fighting (e.g., "normal" gameplay experience) left. That was as closed as it could get, but it re-opened and we haven't had content on Cantha since it re-opened (plus it will be closed by Uzoku - read gw2:The Movement of the World).

Yes, Kourna did - it's stated somewhere (forgot where) that the Kournan army surrendered after Varesh's death - the fact we can still fight them is due to the time-isolation issue that the game has. Also they never invaded Istan - they invaded Vabbi and sponsored attacks on Istan.

Istani didn't have much of a problem - the corsair issue was lowered due to Kourna's lack of sponsoring them and they only lost their navy. So most likely, yes, they probably did just brush off the dust.

In fact, if you read the EN manual entry on Elona (which can be found here), you'll note that Istan has actually become better after Nightfall. The only place that suffered was Kourna, which has had aid from the Sunspears in its recovery.

Fiction often leaves behind plot elements to be left unsettled so that it can appear to be more like reality, you'll find such events occurring a lot in fiction, and those which have closed all doors typically don't intend to revisit things - and if plans change, they have to come up with some BS way to re-open those doors or make new ones. -- Konig/talk 13:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought the corsairs were a collective band of pirates dominating most of Istan. Perhaps I was wrong.

Directly after you defeat Shiro, where the credits start rolling, if you talk to the Luxons and the Kurzicks, they both talk of plans to continue their war.

I consider Varesh's forces plundering Istan, in secret before Istan's declaration and not so secretly afterward, to be one part of an invasion process, but I could have just been reading too much into it.

I suppose leaving something better than how it was when they arrived makes up for the havoc they caused.

I wasn't saying forgetting plot elements doesn't happen in fiction (Having read the Shannara series and many series within the Forgotten Realms collection, I'm used to plot elements drifting into nowhere.), but that, when inquired of in an ongoing game, those elements should be re-examined. I'm glad that most of the primary issues were resolved in each campaign, I just don't like the idea of leaving behind any loose ends. Not until three campaigns later, but especially not forever.

I'll have to do more digging to see what else I've missed in relation to unfinished business. I seem to be missing quite a bit, still. Teddy Dan, yo. 22:41, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

"Corsair"=pirate. There's only been one time they were united to our (e.g., players) knowledge - under Lady Glaive. Other than that, it's just been a bunch of groups acting how they want. Regarding to the Kurz/Lux war - no, re-read them. Only the Luxons seek war, Kurzicks (at least a vast majority of them) desire to retain the peace. I don't recall anything stating that Kourna attacked Vabbi after the war - only hunted the Sunspears and invaded Vabbi. Either way, Istan flourished after Nightfall.

Loose ends will always exist - either solved in the shadows or left open for the hope of a return. The Mantle thing got solved, for the most part, in Prophecies and because it wasn't fully solved, it was able to return for Eye of the North, War in Kryta, and eventually Guild Wars 2 (albeit a minor part in the last). They are re-examined. I don't think there's been a single thing which has been forgotten about - gw2:The Movement of the World discusses charr, corsairs, Joko, Kurzick/Luxon war, and more loose ends. They tie them, but we don't partake in some of the tying. With the game still continuing, mainly Guild Wars Beyond, I expect to see more loose ends tied and new openings created (as is the purpose of the Beyond stuff).

Like I said before, the only issue not solved or looked at post-initial showing is Menzies. -- Konig/talk 23:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

That was what I meant, though. I want to take part in the tying. It became my problem when I arrived where I did when I did, so I should be part of the solution rather than just an indirect catalyst or a forgotten hero while others eventually get around to tying things up while I'm gone.

I'll have to beat Shiro again and talk to the Kurzick NPCs again to double-check. As always, I could be mistaken.

Blacktide Den involved Kahyet and Varesh plotting the downfall of Istan. That was pre-declaration. I don't have the direct quotes handy but, after the Consulate declares war, the player ventures into Kourna and through their travels many quests and cutscenes imply that Varesh's forces continue to hunt down all Sunspears. They don't specify only Sunspears in Kourna. Realistically (even though this is fiction), Varesh would not have discontinued her plan to dominate Istan just because it was discovered. Especially not after Istan declared war on Kourna thorugh the Sunspears. Again, though, I don't have any direct quotes or sources to legitimize these claims. They're just the most logical conclusions. I'd like to clear something up, since I think we may have confused each other. I didn't say Kourna continued its war with Istan after Varesh's defeat. I actually asked if they did, and you answered. After which I began talking about after the Consulate's declaration rather than after the war.

I know you weren't talking about after the war but during, but keep in mind - 1) we did go back to Istan and we were told go to Vabbi to recruit aid, so we never ran away there; 2) the only time to return post Consulate docks, with the previous exception, was after Nightfall - during such time Istan flourished (maybe not immediately, but they had no issues to deal with). Also, only a fool fights a war on multiple fronts - all those who have in our own history have either been severely lucky or were wiped out (Hitler being one famous example of failing due to fighting a two-front war) - with Kourna being a military nationstate, this simple fact should be widely known; Varesh is also a knowledgeable tactictian according to lore, furthering that she wouldn't make such a folly as to siege an island - after ships on both sides were damaged - hunt down the enemy in one's own backyard, and invade Vabbi. There's nothing, in my knowledge, to suggest that she ever went after Istan post-Consulate Docks.

Regarding the Kurzick dialogue - just go to the Divine Path and click on the NPCs' links. If any Kurzick is pro-reigniting the war, it'll be the Vasburg NPCs, but Danika and Count zu Heltzer explicitly state desire to further the peace. Even some luxons desire to keep the peace (although that's just so that they can build up their strength then strike at once - obviously the ones who got their wish were the younger luxons who desired immediate war-igniting).

As for taking part in the tying - that's not very enjoyable for a game in every way. In the case of most of Elona - the only exception being Joko and the un-united corsairs - it's all diplomats; same goes for post-Factions pre-EN Kurz/Luxon stuff - there's no real gameplay value to that. It'll just be like how the War in Kryta started - long dialogue after long dialogue. Only fun for the story and lore buffs, thus undesirable overall unless it leads somewhere... which means it isn't tying things up. Well either way, now things are written in stone - we'll most likely deal with Joko in GW2 (though we also may deal with him in Beyond if the live team gets to Elona with content), and the Kurzicks/Luxon will end outside of the feasible youth of the PCs timeline (which is already stretching it with 1 decade of no aging). -- Konig/talk 01:43, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Varesh herself wasn't necessarily fighting the war, though. She was raising Abbadon. Also, assassination, spying and sabotage are common elements of war. I'm sure there would still have been some Kournan forces in Istan. It doesn't have to be a large force.

I suppose I just accepted only the intentions of those Kurz/Lux who wanted to continue their war as true. My error.

I liked WiK. I don't mind long dialogue as long as I'm present when key events occur. Especially the big ones, like putting an end to a problem. I enjoy the game for its cinema and its lore. In fact, I feel that if GW was strictly PvP, I would never have even tried it. I like my RPGs to possess plot. As RPGs, it is incredibly boring if the world in which the role you play is incomplete or the role you play itself is incomplete. At least, that's my preference. Teddy Dan, yo. 02:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Lets not forget the war in Kryta that demolished what remained of the White Mantle and raised a princess to a Queen in the process and helped bridge the gap to GW2. Lady Elyssa 19:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I thought we covered the White Mantle, above. EotN put a near end to the charr (shaman) problem, as well. EotN tied up Prophecies' loose ends decently, for the most part. It did annoy me that we had to wait through two other campaigns to get to it, but at least we did eventually get around to it. Teddy Dan 09:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)