Talk:Life Sheath

1/4 cast time, please.

half recharge, please.84.27.170.207 19:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

1/2 casting, half recharge, please:p 84.192.144.207 18:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Defiantly needs half a second casting time in order to be affective.William Wallace 10:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is the place where people can request skill changes... --Horsedrowner 17:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, but we can try! 1/2 second casting time 5 sec recharge please! Prot monkie looking for a half-decent elite ^^ Chiyu! 03:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Combination With Prot Spiritt

How does this skill combo with prot spirit? Say I have 100 health and 60 armour. I get hit by Obsidian Flame for 150. Life Sheath will absorb 150 damage before it ends. If I have protective spirit on the same target, can he get hit for 15 Obsidian Flames before Life Sheath ends because the prot spirit trigger first? Or does prot spirit trigger after life sheath? 58.110.137.199 08:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Depends on the order in which the enchantments are cast. If Protective Spirit is placed on a player first, the damage will then be capped to 10% of player's health and then applied to Life Sheath. Likewise, if I cast Armor of Absorption first, Life Sheath absorbs the rest of the damage. --80.16.169.162 11:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it always interacts in the worst manner, full damage gets removed from Life Sheath. Don't ask me why, it's game mechanics. Misery 14:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

5 energy heal?

Assuming player is hit for the maximum amount of damage that this enchantment serves to prevent, it is the equivalent of healing that player by that amount. In fact it is better, since you don't lose that life before (so if you cast Life Sheath to prevent 150 damage when player has 75 life, rather than dying, player will stay at 75 life). For 5 energy, 150 life is nothing shabby. --80.16.169.162 11:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is, especially for an elite. See gift of health, every prot monk's favorite 5 energy heal. Pluto 13:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

not too shabby, no, but remember it has no effect on degen from hexes and conditions. Coruskane 17:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

At 75HP, you could've also cast Word of Healing which has a lower casting time, lower recharge and heals for 200-250. This is decent for pre-protting against a part of a spike but isn't just viable being an elite. SniperFox 13:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Both Word of Healing and Gift of Health require spec in Healing Prayers, which logically "heals" more than a protection spell. The benefit is that Life Sheath can prevent damage without triggering counter-heal effects like the 20% penalty from Deep Wound or damage from Scourge Healing, although it can be countered with anti-enchants. If you use a Protective Spirit and Shielding Hands then Life Sheath on a character with 480 hp, this means the next several attacks are guaranteed to do 0 damage except in the case of life-stealing damage or enchant removal, of course. Hero monks tend to use it alright, since they can have really poor energy management with an elite like Shield of Regeneration. Elder Angelus 19:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree about the heroes. I think its the best prot. elite for a hero. I use it with a bonder build on them. Eth 12:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

@Elder Angelus:We can add to the discussion, you can also use Guardian after casting Life Sheath if the target is against melee. If the attack isn't block the damage is 0 preventing the damage anyhow.--ShadowFog 17:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Recast Value?

Does it reset when recast on same ally, if ally takes full damage prior to 20 second duration of first cast? --Doodle01 01:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Having never tested it before, it sounds like "finishes after 20 seconds or X damage, whatever happends first", so you can recast it after the damage was done without caring about the time.--Fighterdoken 01:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I just verified. As soon as it's protection is maxed out, the enchantment ends. --Doodle01 01:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Update

It's like Weapon of Remedy and Reversal of Fortune got drunk at a party, and something that never should of happened came into existence. Raine - talk 02:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

EFFING TIGHT! - 24.98.195.181 03:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe it, they're actually making Factions henchmen useful. >.> Vili 03:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It's superhot! 58.179.110.181 03:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- --Jette 04:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Finally Useable? :P Vortex ™ 04:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was a misspelled fap, but you're probably right. Vili 04:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

No, more along the lines of a rage-induced wail of "fuck," as displayed here. --Jette 04:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

fags and your /b/ shit --Metroid 04:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yay! Now RC monks can fucking RC themselves. Nice job ruining your game. ~Shard 05:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't ruined before? --Jette 05:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Holy shit. Elite worthy RoF. This shit is tight. 98.226.112.109 05:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol @ Shard. If people enjoy an update, it isn't ruined. QQ moar plz. Secksy 05:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

If people enjoy an update, it isn't ruined.

If I hire a retard and ask him what 5+5 is and he says 3, do we have to change all mathematics ever created? Come back when you get out of elementary school. Also, take a logic class when you get to high school. You desperately need one. ~Shard 01:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

omg npa nubs Vili 09:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

(reset) yes i think RC, Weapon of Remedy and Reversal of Fortune all had a fun time tonight... intersting note on RC for GvG that Shard illuded to... that would make this skill a little over powered in PvP... SabreWolf 06:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It heals less than RC and removes less conditions than RC, with the advantage than you can use it on yourself. It's just an alternative monk elite now as are PaH and Boon Signet; all three elites should allow some new bars to come into play. Boon Signet is actually my favorite so far. 24.255.177.110 06:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

1/4 cast time tbh--67.49.147.14 18:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Good thing this spell heals now, since it only prtected before... oh wait. It's in PROTECTION Prayers. What the heck? Mr.Hobo 20:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, lots of prot prayers heal. Reversal of fortune, for example. Which is what this is, by the way, it just happens to have a condition removal tacked on. You know if it only removed one condition, this wouldn't be that bad. Why did they have to make it two? --Jette 01:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Why would anyone use the new life sheath? It's pointless. It's just a fancy dismiss condition that doesn't heal. Once you drop protective spirit on someone, it's worthless. When you are fighting an ele boss on hard and people are getting hit for 400+ dmg from flare, its important to be able to stop the dmg. The old life sheath let you do that. Two spells (protective spirit + life sheath) and someone is safe for a good bit. You don't need to heal if they can't be hurt. Are there any protection prayers that have any kind of duration other than protective spirit now? Seems like everything else is 3 or 8 seconds. --Tainisk 05:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Aegis. Cast time: two Guardians. Energy: three Guardians. Recharge: twelve Guardians. Spell. Simultaneously cast one and a half Guardians on each of your eight party members.

Most prots have short durations so you can't just fire and forget; you have to pay attention (gasp!) to keep people alive with prots. Except Aegis.

Why would anyone use the new Life Sheath? Because you can fucking stop spikes with that and a RoF. You don't even need SB anymore... Raine - talk 16:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't even bother using RoF with it. With RoF, you're preventing at least 75 damage and healing for the same amount and eliminating the deep wound too. That's enough to stop/delay a spike long enough to get healed. Granted, I don't play in GvG (lol izzy) but it's enough in my experience. --Jette 17:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Well it is pretty good against those WS Bastards, but I liked the old one better, I'd spam it on my warrior xD -- Halogod35 16:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

It has the same problem that reversal of fortune has: 99% of the time it only heals for 10-20 cause it's only the next attack/spell. The old version stopped the next 150, regardless of if they got wanded before the next spike. I don't play PvP, so I don't really care about how useful the new version is in GvG, but how useful the old one was in PvE. A prot. monk's job is not to heal, but to make the healing monk's job easier. If we can heal, its a handy side effect, but it much more important to make sure no one needs healing. There is also no cause to swear just because you disagree with someone. Perhaps if the pvpers would work on their anger management issues, ANet wouldn't have to keep screwing over those of us that only do pve. --Tainisk 21:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I must agree that, while the new version is great, I kinda miss the old life sheath....the update destroyed my prot bar, but oh well xD -- Wandering Traveler 21:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

If they'd taken the old Life Sheath and made the recharge...oh...2 seconds, and the cast time 1/4, that would have been good enough for me. It had the same effectiveness problem as Shielding Hands - if you stick it on the proper target, you can just zzz while target spike-attempt is stopped in its tracks over and over again. But if you missed or they changed targets, gg, hope you had another prot ready. (Before you ask, yes, I'm too lazy to set up proper aggro in PvE.) Vili 09:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Read: If they'd taken a monk skill and made it so I only have to cast it once and my target is 99% invincible to all but the heaviest and fastest spikes, that would have been good enough for me. lol Cracks me up. Interesting change, I liked the old one, but I didn't like the fire and forget aspect of it... I think this'll be fun. Cocytus 22:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Heaviest and fastest spike still ignores it. :C Also, do you like Prot Spirit? Vili 22:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention how hard it is to set up proper agro with heroes and henchies. But yeah, if you could figure out who was getting hit- protective spirit + shielding hands + life sheath then go to sleep until the target changes. It did suck when you guessed wrong though.Tainisk 21:50, 15 Dec 2008 (UTC)

Still kinda wish this skill was reverted, we already have RoF, RC, WoR, and XR. I LOVED The damage negation better, it just needed a buff >.< -- Halogod35 02:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention this is OPd as fack. Could you ever remove your own daze with mending touch or RC? No you could not. The old version was stupid but it was better than this. What would be cool is if it gave the target other ally damage reduction based on how much health you have left, though trying to balance that would be an absolute bitch. --Jette 03:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

THANK YOU! -- Halogod35 03:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

loving this skill for small arenas, completely cancels hammer spikes and dervs wounding strike 68.202.136.112 21:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Wounding strike is totally gay, but you shouldn't be able to just lol when a hammer warrior spikes you (on the other hand, it was probably a bad hammer warrior since you had time to cast it at all between the KDs, but that's really not my point). --Jette 21:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

you have the exact amount of time to cast a 1/4 cast in between KDs, this skill counters the proish of pro hammer wars 100% 23:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Only if the warrior is bad. --Jette 00:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Hero

I've noticed my heroes don't use this to remove conditions. I'm not sure if it is the a real problem or just me, but I don't like walking around crippled and bleeding and having dunk sit there and laugh at me.Kyle van der Meer 17:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Further Information, The hero also had mend condition. I disabled mend condition, and dunk is now using life sheath more freely. It seems that mend condition is a higher priority condition remover than Life Sheath. Kyle van der Meer 17:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Heroes cast from left to right. How is your heroe's skill bar configured?70.189.106.136 13:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That's not really true tbh, you can give heroes the same skills and reorder them, and it makes negligible difference. Heroes do in fact treat this more as a Reversal of Fortune-type skill than a condition removal; they won't use it on themselves to remove conditions after battle, for instance, or if you have a condition on you but are not taking damage such as Cripple. Vili 点 17:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

What I really want to know is do Heroes use this skill correctly now? Eg. they'll use it as a general heal when there is no conditions on the other player and vice-versa? - ^We_Heart^Katamari 14:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

question

is it just me or is a-net trying to make all skills exactly the same? it would be better if this skill was reverted back to the way it was in my opinion. just because someone is on a personal quest to remove all passive defenses from the game, a person's personal problems shouldnt remove variety from skills--Arrythmia 21:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Now, did you really need all those pipes? --Jette 00:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Just ignore the troller. But it looks like that way. Make all skills alike. I mean it's not that really hard to make a profession do something unique without making a carbon copy of something else.--ShadowFog 01:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not hard. Which does make you wonder why they're not doing it. Sometimes I have to wonder: "is the skill balancer really making all these bad decisions, or does ANet just have the laziest team of programmers on the planet?" --Jette 01:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think ANet is just lying. They said that GW2 would have fewer skills, but not try to turn GW1 into GW2, because it would require to redo almost the entire game structure. Apparently, they wanted to give us a preview of GW2. With dupe skills. Lots of them. Paddymew 06:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

RC vs LS

I think you people are forgetting a key fact in bitching back and forth which one is better. Though RC clearly heals for more and removes more conditions, you don't HAVE to use LS on a person with conditions. Instead of saying "it's condition removal with an elite RoF tacked on",which a lot of you seem to be doing, think if it like an elite RoF with condition removal tacked on. Axel Zinfandel 18:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying this is the RC of PvE? Vili 03:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're in PvE, why aren't you taking Shield of Deflection and letting some hero NRt those conditions for you? 128.255.216.144 21:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't always have room in my party for a Necromancer, much less an N/Rt. (Contrary to popular belief, they are not universally viable.) Foul Feasting Disease onto the whole party repeatedly is also highly irritating (in Echovald Forest for example). Vili 21:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I like RC better...but, with LS, you can use it on yourself, plus you get a super ROF. Its nice to not have to depend 100% on someone or something else to remove my daze, cooties & deep wound.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 21:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Mark of Protection

I think it should be in the related skills. What do you think? --MageMontu 14:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I think not, the list is long enough as it is and the purposes are very different. Misery 14:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

...So RoF stays, while its unemployed elite twin brother doesn't? Paddymew 06:52, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

RoF is non-elite Life Sheath and a lot more similar than MoP.--92.9.71.213 10:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

MoP, LS, and RoF should all be related. The first line of each: "whenever target ally would take damage, that ally is healed for that amount instead". The only difference is RoF and LS end on the first attack, and MoP goes for the full duration. That said, RoF is already related to both skills in question, whereas Mark of Protection isn't related to either one. I'd like to add all 3 to be related to each other, since they negate damage and turn it into health gain. FleshAndFaith 21:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

RoF and LS are both used to catch spikes. MoP is not. Read the related skills guideline if you are confused as to what that section means. The mechanical relationship you are talking about belongs in the "see also" section. Misery 22:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think everyone got the memo on this "see also" argument. Otherwise, we will have to systematically go through every skill page and add a see also, being sure not to offend the folks that still believe Related Skills are for mechanical similarities. FleshAndFaith 00:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

We do have to do that. Although I don't know why we have to worry about offending people. Misery 12:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Because some people are very keen on reverting edits because they don't follow changes in protocols. I like the word "protocols". FleshAndFaith 16:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)w

That is solved easily enough. Revert and explain. Send them the memo. Heck, this time I didn't even have to revert. Misery 16:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

MoP's basic functionality is so similar to this that it wins a Related Skill for its mechanics, in my opinion.

It would better than the silly way of putting it under "See Also", which will do just make the average reader wonder what anal internal rule qualifies the others as Related Skills but not this one.

I'll do this myself shortly after a while to let people disagree if they're going to | 72 | 22:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The argument about the difference between skills that are related in their practical use and skills that are related by mechanical similarity is really, reall old. It is all over the skill formatting guideline page. The short version is that knowing which skills are similar in practice is more useful, it is good to know that if you want to swap out Life Sheath for another elite, you can still cover its spike catching ability by taking RoF, whereas mechanical similarities are technical in nature and only really useful for testing game mechanics or theorycrafting. If you are good enough at the game to theorycraft you should already be intimately familiar with the function of every single skill. I admit the name of the sections is not perfect, feel free to suggest new ones on the guideline's talk page. That being said, FleshandFaith did it incorrectly. The correct approach would be to put all skills that reduce incoming damage by a set amount on a list on the mechanical relation skill page, then link to that section. Then it would be very unambiguious as to what relationship was being explained by the see also section. If you disagree with what I am saying, the starting point really would be to at least read the guideline. I strongly oppose the addition of Mark of Protection to the related skills section. It cannot be used in a similar manner and I would argue is not practically useful at all. Misery 22:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I understood that, in the way the average person makes builds, when they need to substitute a skill they don't have or can't use, they find the ones that do the same or a similar thing (which is why we have Related Skills, to facilitate this).

I don't agree that mechanical similarity -- which ideally, and certainly in the way I used it above, is just an unfortunately formal way of saying "It does (more or less) the same thing" -- is only useful for testing and theorizing.

And I think it a great exaggeration to say that you could not use MoP in LS role, or vice versa. (Certainly they are at least more similar than LS to Xinrae's.) | 72 | 00:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Give me an example where you could use MoP in a similar role to LS. I propose it doesn't exist. The things people propose for mechanical similarity are scary. Flail and Shield Stance both reduce movement speed by 33%. They (more or less) do the same thing. Is that information useful in any sense? Misery 06:18, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I just don't understand, though I can't tell if it's you or Guild Wars I'm not understanding. Because my example would go something like this: An ally is taking damage from one or more sources, and you want to heal them. (Among other healing spells, as any sane monk would do), you either cast LS 4-6 times or MoP once, and get more or less the same effect...

I see that I overlooked how useful the condition removal in LS would be when casting LS often enough to get the same healing as MoP. But apparently we're not counting the condition thing very strongly, if you look at these other related skills.

And yes, MoP sucks hard, but that's no reason to say it's not similar.

At any rate I don't know of any category into which MoP fits better than into the group collected under this Related Skills. | 72 | 12:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

There is your flaw. You would not cast RoF/LS multiple times if someone kept getting hit because it would cost you a shitload of energy for very little effect. The only time you cast RoF/LS for the heal effect is during a spike because of their fast activation times or if you have nothing else available and full energy. They are terrible healing spells. MoP has a two second cast time, so you cannot use it for that purpose. In fact the use you described is how every skill that gives health could be used, are you suggesting these three skills should be related, along with Orison of Healing, Healing Whisper, Word of Healing, Healing Wave, Patient Spirit, etc. The category of skills MoP fits in to "better" would be something like "skills that convert damage to healing" on Skill quick reference. Misery 12:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

play moar mister mistress misery MoP has 1 second cast time :< only because a bad skill is bad your knowledge shouldn't fail 88.153.105.75 13:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I haven't used it since my axe monk got out of the Southern Shiverpeaks :< Misery 14:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

This category is "skills that convert damage into healing" | 72 | 01:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Misery, I went back and reread the related skills topics we had earlier, and I don't think I read that we actually accepted the new "see also" proposal. If you can tell me where it was we actually agreed on the subject, that might change things. Besides, RoF, LS, and MoP are so mechanically similar that they are used for the same things: Protection. Simple as that. These skills all turn damage into health. I'm just going to put MoP in the related skills, because it is. Monks use all 3 skills to turn damage into health. FleshAndFaith 02:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Except MoP doesn't get used. Anyway, I'm gonna try not to repeat previous walls of text, but it makes more sense to split the mechanically related from the usage related skills where appropriate. Perhaps the guideline needs updating or a different name than "see also," but as it stands I will revert that if no one beats me to it. --salvius 03:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Nobody should be reverting anything until the discussion is concluded. Now, if we're going to list related skills by "What could do the same job," then Restore Condition really needs to go in that list, and everything else except Weapon of Remedy should be removed. elix Omni 03:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I never said I would be hasty about reverting :p. Actually, a list with Rof, RC, and Wor would be fine with me. I think all of the others can be found on those skill pages anyway. Though I am tempted to just say fuck related skills and quit my brief wiki appearance. --salvius 03:40, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

We could altogether say, "Screw trying to organize every skill page the same exact way down to the t," and we could treat each page differently, based on general consensus. For example, we could keep MoP in the related skills section because it turns damage received directly into health gain. They are mechanically similar enough that a person could understand having the 3 pages link to each other.

As for the whole "See Also" idea in general... Mayhaps we just veto it, and let the general population decide what is and isn't relevant for related skills. So, we should allow (within reasonable limit) all skills fundamentally and mechanically similar to be listed as Related. And not just a little related kinda, but reasonably related. Obviously, this will come down the talk pages depending on the skill in question. If we can all agree to that, then we can get over this "use vs mechanics" debate, and actually post helpful information and let people think what they want about potential skill subs. FleshAndFaith 04:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

mark of prot is in no way related to life sheath, jesus christ. -Auron 04:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh Auron, that just means we have even more reason to list them as related. FleshAndFaith 18:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure Auron is aware that if he wants to say anything, he must say the opposite :) | 72 | 22:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Ooooook. The see also proposal was put into the guideline here. The discussion that lead up to it is available here. In fact, 72 even supported it at the time ("I think that's a pretty cool idea.") There were some objections after implementation, mainly from Backsword, who preferred to use categories over lists. After long discussion we seemed to have minor agreement that this could make the categories at the bottom of the page too cluttered, so he decided not to pursue it any further. As for Felix's statement "'No one should be reverting. . .", this is essentially correct, because no one should have added Mark of Protection until the discussion was finished, but they did, so I am going to edit the page to be correct as per the guideline. If anyone is asking, my version of the related skill list would be RC, RoF and WoR, as suggested by Salvius above. These are the skills that are functionally and practically similar with similar uses. Xinrae's Weapon could also qualify, but Vengeful Weapon and Reversal of Damage are more spammed around for pressure than used to catch spikes, although they can be used for this. Now let me explain briefly why putting mechanically related skills under the same section is not useful. Let us pick an example the old version of, Shield Stance. This stance used to have two effects, a 75% block chance and a 33% speed reduction. Flail is also a stance with two effects, 33% speed reduction and 33% attack speed increase. Those skills are fairly similar right? So related. Despite the fact you would never use either stance as a self snare. Disciplined Stance is also a block stance, so it is related too right? That means that in the related skill list you end up with Flail and Disciplined Stance. These two skills have almost nothing to do with each other and without an explanation is can be unclear why each individual stance is related to Shield Stance. With the linked list approach the reason for the relationship is explained by the name of the list and with the relationships between skills in the related skill section being narrowly defined, the purpose of that section becomes implicit. This approach is more useful and contains more information. Why exactly do you want to change to a less useful system that is ambiguous? Also, finally, it is very childish to try to go in the other direction simply because Auron said something. Please try to edit and discuss in good faith in an honest manner. Misery 08:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

It's possible to distinguish between the main point of a skill and the rest, e.g. the penalty. In the example you gave, it's right there: "you'd never use either stance as a self snare". The main functions of these skills are a 75% block chance and a 33% IAS -- and these are not related. Which is why it's intuitive not to put them as Related, for the same reason that you wouldn't make all sac skills Related.

As for LS and MoP, on the other hand, most of us believe that their main function is the same: to convert damage into healing. (Notice that this is how they are categorized in the link you added to See also.)

I think you've finally made it clear enough to understand your disagreement. Is it that you find LS's main function to be condition removal?. (This would also account for the other thing which, to those of us arguing against you, would seem quite absurd: the addition of "Restore Condition" to Related Skills!)

I think we are actually in agreement, as you alluded to at the start of your post, in what makes a Related Skill or a See Also skill. What we disagree about is how LS is used or was meant to be used.

Misery and others: if this is fair and makes sense, please corroborate, otherwise I think this is where I must get off. | 72 | 21:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Life Sheath's primary function is quick powerful condition removal. That in itself can be enough to thwart a spike. elix Omni 23:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

72 - the entire point of Life Sheath is to catch spikes. That is how the skill is "used." It is most similar to RoF, as I think everyone agrees - both skills are twitch spells used to reduce the effectiveness of a spike. At the same time, however, Restore Condition is used in much the same way - landing a RC during a spike usually brings the target back up to full (and because RC is a powerful elite otherwise, it's not just brought simply to counter spikes).

Mark of Prot is a huge steaming pile of shit. It can't do any of that. It can't catch spikes. It can't remove conditions. In essence, it is a waste of an elite. The only similarity it has with life sheath is the least important one. Much like flail and shield stance snaring the player, the damage converted to health is not the key part of the skill nor the defining factor. Life Sheath exists to catch spikes. Mark of prot exists to be a waste of an elite slot. They are not related. -Auron 23:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

(Ignoring Auron, and replying to Felix), I just can't agree to the idea that a skill can both have a main function of condition removal and be best related to a skill which doesn't do that. (And even if so, MoP is just a longer RoF so it should qualify too.) And if the function is to thwart spikes then surely changing damage into healing performs the same function as condition removal, and so is on the same footing... (In fact I would say a large hit is more of a spike than slow degen...)

As a side note, the reason I think it's more related to RoF than to MoP isn't that RoF stops a spike & MoP doesn't, but that its more minor details, like energy cost, are closer to LS than are MoP's (like when you alphabetize and two entries start with the same letter so you consider the second letter). | 72 | 23:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring Auron is a mistake. He is being rude, but what he is saying is correct. LS has two purposes, catching spikes and clearing condition stacks. Other skills that can fufill these functions on a monk's bar are RC and LS. Your only mistake in your reasoning is that you don't know what the main point of skills are. It's not converting damage into healing, it is spike catching. LS is a fast, small prot, with stack removal tacked on. MoP is not a small prot and has no condition removal. Therefore, not related. It does not fufill either of the major functions of LS and you would not be able to use it in a similar manner. Misery 00:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

To add on to Misery's post, compare to basic stats of each skill. Life sheath is 5e, near instant cast, and 2 second recharge. It's designed to be available every time a spike-y packet of damage comes in. Mark of prot is 10e, 1s cast (too slow to catch most spikes), and 45 recharge (spikes happen far more often than once every 45 seconds).

If you're looking for a related skill to Mark of Prot, consider spirit bond. They're both expensive skills that are used (in theory, anyway) when the target is going to die and nothing else can save him. Unfortunately, the difference here is still the recharge - spirit bond is still viable at 5 seconds, whereas mark of prot is still not at 45. -Auron 00:14, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Converting damage into healing is spike-catching, sometimes moreso than preventing degen. | 72 | 00:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Deep Wound. elix Omni 00:34, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

(That's why I said "sometimes": it can be better or worse at thwarting spikes, such as, to take the extremes, Blind or Deep Wound) | 72 | 00:42, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Mark of prot would be a spike catching skill if it had half the recharge it currently does. Because spikes happen more often than once every 45 seconds, it is not a skill that can be viably taken to catch spikes (i.e., it does not do what life sheath does). For reference, if you haven't PvP'd, spikes come every 15-20 seconds depending on how quickly the war builds adren, faster sometimes in gimmicky caster builds, and occasionally slower if the war is being snared nonstop. A spike prevention skill needs to be ready for every spike, not every third. -Auron 07:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

To my astonishment, I'm willing to concede that point. MoP probably does not actually fill the spike-catching role of LS as well as other skills.

Nevertheless, I still feel that the current arrangement isn't the best one. It's quite clear that to some of our intuitions, RC is much less related than MoP is, and to others it's the reverse.

So I think a mix of, or overlap of, the two categories -- what the skill is commonly used for and what it actually says/does -- would be best. RC is the extreme of the 1st, and MoP is the extreme of the 2nd. Weapon of Remedy (or RoF) is the middle best, being closest to LS in both regards.

What would you think of a compromise (mostly in your favour...) of, say, keeping MoP in the See also section, but also moving RC there? Or something like that. | 72 | 22:57, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't object to the removal of RC from related skills. The feel of the two different skills is very different. The relationship is something along the lines of "You either take Life Sheath without RoF or RC with RoF", not that the two are equivalent. It could be covered in the see also section as something like "skills that remove conditions" or "multiple conditions". Misery 00:22, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Edited in accordance; see edit summary for extra bit if you care | 72 | 02:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Oh lordy... It's just ridiculous to use a line linking to a list where 2/3 of the skills are just repeated and only the third is different.. why not save them time?

• Mark of Protection (elite)
• List of skills that remove multiple conditions

| 72 | 15:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

misery moo's wasting its time on the wiki makes me sad in my heart :< 88.153.105.75 00:05, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I should bold this so you idiots will read it: Why can't you also have mechanically similar skills in the same list, so that people who don't know every little thing in the game can make their own decisions as to what skills can be used in other situations. The idea of using only skills which you THINK are used the same way only HURTS NEW PLAYERS. This wiki is not just some discussion board for hoity toity big shots who know everything about Guild Wars and want to have uber-informed discussions about how much they know, it is largely for new players who are confused or are trying to expand their list of skills. You can't just shut them out because, "Haha, you can't use MoP to stop spikes!" Hell yes you can. Turn that spike into healing. By the time its stripped, you win the game.

Now, I'm going to put MoP back on the list, because it can be used to turn spike damage into healing, same as the other skills on the list. If you remove it, I will be prepared to add it back, citing that I use it in PvE the same way you would use LS in PvP. FleshAndFaith 16:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

F&F, I agree with your conclusion and reasons, but I don't think bolding your text or calling them idiots will help... ours is clearly not the only position on the wiki and we can at least have some grace in discussing it sanely... Maybe we should Request For Comment?

In the meantime, I'm not reverting it because (1) I agree with the change and (2) There's been enough reverting --- but if Misery reverts it I won't re-revert.

I invite again the compromise in my last post (which I think quite reasonable, even under Misery and Auron's position) | 72 | 16:59, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Calling me an idiot is unlikely to convince me. Going against consensus is unlikely to be successful and have a lasting impact on the page. If this is the level of debate you are going to enter, then I am simply going to refer you to my previous arguments on this page, as they do actually address your concerns. As it could be interpreted that I have already removed MoP once, thus "reverting", I will not revert again, but I am confident someone else will shortly. I would consider you readding it after I removed it your one and only reversion Flesh. Misery 00:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have added MoP to the related skills list, as per the argument that these skills are related by function and usage (stopping spike damage by turning it directly into health). Since this skill fits both mechanics and player usage, it should be no problem that they are related. If there is another problem, let's take the debate back to the related skills argument page, and actually make a decision. Misery, after reading it again, only a few people said "This is a good idea" but nowhere was it actually decided to go the route of the "see also" section. FleshAndFaith 01:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I thought the last 2 posts were all that changed since I last checked but I see there was more in the edit summaries :< ... | 72 | 02:40, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Guys. Seriously.

If you don't play haven't played PvP competitively, please take the time to read the following pages: spike, catch, and prot. I think a lot of the misunderstanding on this particular page is due to people not understanding what a spike is and why Mark of Protection can't catch one. Thanks. — Raine Valen 3:53, 20 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that was a lot of the misunderstanding, but is not anymore for about a day and a half (excluding F&F's outburst).

The only (actually) unresolved issue, having established that MoP should be relegated to See Also, concerns whether the reference under See Also should link to a list of skills that convert damage into healing (in accordance with Misery's last edit), or -- since the only item on that list which isn't already on LS's page is MoP -- should mention MoP directly (in accordance with my last edit).

.

As far as I can understand it,

The edits/revertstorm of the last half of the day were triggered by F&F editing it >>> my (mistaken) decision not to revert his edit while I could have >>> a sudden influx of edits from inside and outside this discussion, going back and forth, with some of us trying to keep it stable >>> Auron editing to a version not mentioned in this discussion, and my (mistaken) decision to swing it too far in the opposite direction >>> Jon restoring the one from before all that mess, and locking it.

:P | 72 | 04:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Regarding that, see Guild Wars Wiki talk:Formatting/Skills#Related Skills Revisited. — Raine Valen 4:44, 20 Sep 2010 (UTC)

I got super angry and bolded my text. Maybe (just maybe) next time I should also Caps Lock it... Maybe (just maybe) make it a few sizes bigger and color it red. Now that conveys red faced anger. Also, maybe (just maybe), we should consider that not all spikes are super fast and precise, and maybe (just maybe) LS, RoF and MoP can be used for stopping pressure from multiple attackers hitting the same target in a little place called PvE (Maybe you've heard of it. Just maybe.) My point was, and is: You can't really turn to someone and say that they don't do what they do because it would mean that they aren't doing it right. Heaven forbid someone doesn't play the game the way you do, or the way you want them to.

Now, I'm not going to touch MoP on this page until an actual decision has been made about related skills including very similar skill mechanics. But please understand that there is no way you can know what every player in the game uses each skill for. Many skills have more than one purpose in the game. You can't really decide on one and stick with it, particularly if that purpose almost exclusively applies to one area of the game, be it PvE or PvP or whateverthehellyouplay. Thanks, and Have a Super Fantastic Day FleshAndFaith 21:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

If the damage isn't super fast and precise, it's not a good spike. I wouldn't advocate wasting your elite skill on hoping the enemy is sloppy. elix Omni 21:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Spike <-- Do you disagree with with the definition provided on this page? It is the definition that I am using. RoF and LS are less than ideal for stopping pressure. Also I should point out that getting angry does not help get your point across, in fact it has the opposite effect. Logical, calm, well-reasoned discussion is more likely to convince people. As for the idea of documenting every possible use for a skill, that would not be useful or beneficial. I can claim that I use RoF to meet the enchantment requirement for Golden Fox Strike. Assassin's Remedy is also used for this purpose, that would suggest they are related. That is obviously ridiculous. Misery 21:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

"Also, maybe (just maybe), we should consider that not all spikes are super fast and precise."

Yes, they are. Otherwise, they aren't spikes; they're pressure. Even in those cases (especially in those cases, really), it's better to use an anti-pressure skill (e.g. Guardian, Shielding Hands, Shield of Absorption, or even Spirit Bond) than an anti-spike skill like Life Sheath because:

• You have time to do it. If there's no fast, precise damage application, you should have time for a 1-second cast.
• It's more energy-efficient. If a player it taking big damage from several casters, you don't spam LS on them, you SB them. SB is literally three times as efficient as RoF or LS without condition removal.

The point isn't to tell people that "No you can't use LS to stop some pressure damage"; by the same token, people using a skill (badly) for something does not mean that that skill is suited for that application. The latter, skills' applications, is what we're trying to document. — Raine Valen 21:30, 23 Sep 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) x3 (god, I must be slow or something) Okay, first of all, if a spike isn't fast and precise, then it's not a spike. If someone is using MoP for spikes or to mitigate loads of damage in PvE in the same way the same person would use LS (which is ludicrous), then you'll have to add Healing seed and healing hands in there as well (since those skills trigger on hit as well...). Also, no one uses MoP in PvE or PvP... maybe a couple of times to experiment, but most will quickly realize that other skills are better at preventing extreme single target pressure in PvE or PvP like SoA... which works wonders in hard mode, no 5 sec skill disabling, you can use other skills in addition to SoA, it's spammable, and it's not an elite. If we decide to make a table for mechanically related stuff, then we can put it there, but until then... --Lania 21:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

We do have a table for mechanically related stuff. It is linked at the moment from the page. Misery 21:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Somehow I thought he was thinking to have a table on the page rather than a link to it... but looking at that list, putting a table of that size, especially for skills that remove multiple conditions, would be awfully cluttery. --Lania 21:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Stop ECing me! >.< Also, have none of you guys ever helped an guild mate or alliance member out with a mission or quest in the middle or beginning of a campaign? Sure, you could bring WoH to Ascalon and heal your buddy for over 200% of his max health whenever he gets a little wanded by a Grawl. Or, you could relax just enough to have some fun, use an elite you don't get to use very often because people on a website say another one is better. As for all that other junk about spikes: Hi, not everyone plays PvP where everything is precise and comes from spike damage. A great number of people in PvE don't use LS to "catch spikes". Sure, they can use it to help some pressure by providing some protection, a decent heal, and some condition removal, but not all creatures are organized and mean enough to spike you. Yes, some of them are, and yes sometimes a fluke does happen and you can get spiked. In this regard, why would you only list a use that is seen mainly in PvP, for a skill that gets used in PvE as well? (I'm talking about LS again, not MoP) FleshAndFaith 21:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

You think MoP is related to LS because it helps you relax? elix Omni 21:56, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

EC You could use any skill in that circumstance. How would MoP being on this list help you to make that decision? Very few people use Life Sheath in PvE in my experience. Note I didn't say "nobody", but you said yourself that we need to discriminate as to what skills make which lists. Misery 21:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh you guys, always misconstruing what I say. I mean that you can't just exclude a skill from a list just because you think that it is bad and no one uses it. Sure, it is kind of bad, and sure there are skills which do something similar... But come on. It turns damage into health. Not healing if you take damage, but damage to health. That's awesome. Also, I agree, not as many people use LS in PvE since not many creatures will spike you like a PvP team. But some creatures do, and hell, bosses and boss-like foes can hit pretty damn hard, and rip chunks of health off your bar with a single skill, making LS kind of useful if you know they will be using a big attack soon. As for what I would use MoP seriously for... I would have it on my bar and not use it unless our second monk was getting pounded on and couldn't prot himself for some reason. I would use it on him and lose 5 seconds worth of a condition removal skill and maybe RoF because I would be a Healing primary. This was back in the day when your group had two monks and one was clever enough to be a prot. FleshAndFaith 22:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

That isn't the only reason we want to exclude it from the list. Please reread the reasoning given. It has been repeated often enough. Misery 06:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can see why you don't want it listed, but here is my point, which I will repeat, yes again. LS is used for catching spikes in PvP. Since there are some players who use it to alleviate pressure, pre-prot a target, and/or provide condition removal in PvE (PvE is not PvP, in case you were wondering), I thought it would be wise to give it some similar skills for it's main use in PvE. Don't bother saying that not enough people use it in PvE, because that is simply not true. In PvE, since only a couple mobs try and spike, it is not used to catch spikes, but to stop pressure on a target by turning damage directly into healing (a trait only 3 skills in the game share). Therefore, I said that we should consider both PvP and PvE when deciding who does and doesn't use a skill the way you think it is used. FleshAndFaith 19:08, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I do consider PvE and PvP. You are just incorrect. Misery 06:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I play PvE primarily and have never used this skill once because its effect is awful and has an awful recharge. For that elite slot you could have used Spellbreaker, Shield of Deflection, or Aura of Faith and be useful in fights with more than 1 mob. I do use Life Sheath sometimes because it works good against WS dervs (so the idiot playing healmonk does not waste all his energy against them). Koda Kumi 10:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

What is LS used for in PvE? FleshAndFaith 23:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the best Protection Prayers elites

Life Sheath is basically a slightly improved Reversal of Fortune with the ability to remove conditions. Quite impressive. One can simply drop Reversal of Fortune and Dismiss Condition out of the skill bar for this skill, and make room for other useful skills. With .25 cast time you can quickly remove harmful conditions like Dazed off yourself. With most condition removal spells, taking Dazed off yourself would take 2 seconds, while with Life Sheath you can do this in .5 seconds, meaning smaller chance of getting interrupted. Also, Life Sheath is quite a nice counter to spikes, removing multiple conditions (most notably Dazed, Burning and Deep Wound) and converting the next damage into healing. There are numerous other usages for this skill, but I'm too lazy to list them all here. --Teisei 「ページ」 「会話」 19:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, did this memo just now get around? I thought everyone already knew....all of that. Karate Jesus 19:17, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

What I think we have here is the classic example of the "heuristic" player: totally ignoring the description, he just tests it on the field and evaluates what happens. ... Of course, the rest of us just read the description :P | 72 | 01:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

screw the description, concise descriptions are naiz :) — Scythe 1:11, 27 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Screw the descriptions. Fill your bar with random skills, bind your whole keyboard to skill buttons and faceroll. --Teisei 「ページ」 「会話」 08:56, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Screw the descriptions, use Joy2Key and play with a Guitar Hero controller. elix Omni 14:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Healing or health gain?

Does this skill cause healing or health gain? According to the full description, this skill causes health gain; however, the concise description states that it is healing. Also, the Reversal of Fortune article notes that its full description is incorrect and Reversal of Fortune actually causes healing, not health gain. --Silver Edge 03:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

A user on GuildWiki tested every healing and health gain skill a while back and found that Life Sheath does in fact heal your target. elix Omni 04:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

So I suppose Scourge Healing and Scourge Enchantment would both trigger... hmm, most unfortunate. Cirian 23:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

What about Spirit Bond? I figure it must be Health Gain, because, otherwise, the game would crash every time a monk cast Spirit Bond on themself, was hexed with Soul Bind, and took damage over 60. — Raine Valen 23:53, 28 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Scourge Healing only affects direct healing, iirc. –~=Ϛρѧякγ (τѧιк) ←♥– 00:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

RoF and LS are direct healing? — Raine Valen 0:04, 29 Sep 2010 (UTC)

Just healing. Spirit Bond is healing too. --Irgendwer 00:30, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The difference, Raine, is the player being the source of healing vs the enchantment being the source. elix Omni 00:31, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Good news, Cirian! Apparently, you won't explode for RoFing or LSing a target with Scourge Healing! — Raine Valen 0:43, 29 Sep 2010 (UTC)

It's not hard to see why astronomers wasted so much time trying to describe orbital paths with epicycles. People don't like to abandon preconceptions and rebuild knowledge from observation. Most healing effects from Prophecies era, regardless of their 'healing'/'health gain' label, are affected by modifiers. 'Health gain' skills that aren't tend to date from Factions on, like Spirit Light Weapon. The most likely explanation is as with 'light' vs 'holy': Neither exists as we perceive them, tied to inherent global properties. Rather, each source of healing probably has independent flags for 'affected by modifiers', and 'triggers on-healing effects'. Hence, Divine Favor doesn't trigger Scourge Healing, Life Attunement affects almost everything older than Factions, and Patient Spirit will still scourge you despite being an enchantment-based heal. MA Anathe 05:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Patient Spirit will also get a buff from Healer's Boon. I think it is because it heals when it ends, not whenever you take damage or make an attack, like Vig. Spirit and Healing Seed. It only heals once, then it's done. FleshAndFaith 05:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Then Seed of Life. I think Scourge could trigger repeatedly on one of the related skills at some point during the original beta weekends as well. MA Anathe 20:44, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I seem to remember this as well, but I think it was from when they first updated Soul Bind. It had a problem with a skill that healed every so often (other than the Destroyer skill thingy). FleshAndFaith 23:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)