Talk:Paragon/Archive 1

Nerfs

Considering the nerfs of all barely playable skills, I think the Paragon must have been uber powerful in PvP. Why not nerf that stupid Dervish instead? If there's an overpowered profession, it is the Dervish. After each Paragon nerf, we find something that is barely playable and then they nerf it again. While the Dervish can kill casters with just a quick 3-skill combo and gets no nerfs whatsoever. I hereby protest! Down with the Dervish and more power to the (Motivation) Paragon! Nicky Silverstar 18:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Resembles a Bard

Anyone else find the paragon resembling a bard? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:71.35.2.234 .

Not really. -- ab.er.rant 02:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems close enough; bards sing songs to buff party in various ways outside of direct healing or mainline buffs/enchants. Sounds like a paragon to me. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:69.234.195.211 .

The role and idea is the same, but paragons have better armor than bards normally do, and are generally beefier. Miss Innocent 02:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Underpowered in 4 vs 4

Does anyone find Paragon's Motivation and Command skills underpowered in 4v4 (HvH, RA, TA)? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:68.120.226.168 .

While I still think Motivation could be a bit more versatile, I withdraw my protest. ;-) Nicky Silverstar 16:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but complaining that motivation is underpowered in 4v4 is similar to complaining that Heal Party or LoD are underpowered in 4v4... motivation was made for 8v8 only. Command, however, is fine in 4v4 IMO.-Rakeman 23:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean "underpowered *everywhere except GvG and HA" :P81.2.90.239 22:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Lol, yes the arenas the less popular ones. Bards play songs for the whole party to help them, these class does but very restrictive with its 2 pip energy, theres so many restrictions to the skills that I dont use Motivation anymore like the Ritualist to Communin, Dervish to Wind Prayers and Rangers where they double think about taking there girlfriend("Beast Mastery"-end quote) out in a build. Motivation is to gain energy and health but with that many restriction, is like asking yourself "Should I really use it?" as in "Should I read this paragraph?". Look at Command skills, you have "Fall Back!", "Go for the Eyes!"(even a casters can use it...), "Incoming!"(the PvE, dunno why they havent killed the PvP yet, masochist), "Stand Your Ground!",etc. --ShadowFog 05:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Guide

Shoudn't there be a link to the article on how to play a paragon? Ixidor 03:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You could just add it you know ;) -- ab.er.rant 03:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

a guide to playing a (already nerfed beyond usefulness) class that gets nerfed every update would be hard to maintain and pointless. atleast, thats my reasoning as to why no one has made one yet --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:69.234.195.211 .

Actually, there are two ways to play a paragon effectively:

1) you play it as a dmg reduction/support/energy return class using motivation or the dmg reduction healing shouts in Command to support your team

2) you play it as a dmg maker using IAS with spammable spear attacks and carry your own method of healing/condition removal to take the stress off your monk

Because of the nerfing to the paragon, it is a narrow field of skills that are now effective to the paragon build. --Shaia 21:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting tidbit

I find it funny how most classes have a "common useage" section while this paragon however, doesn't.
I tried remaking my paragon that I had a long time ago but there are no guides, no good builds, and really no decent research on the class for me to keep the character. Vanguard 16:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a reason for that. Paragons are created 'on the fly' now. Nerfing seems to be the paragon's secondary attribute. Although I must say, just created a fantastic AB build. --Shaia 15:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I lol'd at the "nerfing attribute". I guess they're better suited for template useage. I tried making a paragon in PVE. Got it to level 20 then got bored and deleted. Vanguard16:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Paragon forever! Unless there aren't any in GW2 of course ;) I use a paragon in both PVE and AB, but with completely different roles. One just has to find the right balance I suppose, which ANet seems to be avoiding when it comes to the paragon. --Shaia 21:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Well Have fun with it. I had one back when NF first came out and it was badass. But the one that I mentioned above just... it was annoying to handle. Vanguard15:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

use focused andger, save yourselves and theirs nothing to fear. its the most powerful build in all of pve. --1337 05:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

More Versatility!

I was looking through the list of Paragon skills, and it struck me that, while powerful, they're only useful in extremely narrow situations. With the exception of a select few templates, they're horrible for just normal gameplay. What the hell? It looks like a fun class to play, but I like a versatile build. Paragon needs more options, and it needs more elites that aren't rubbish. I find it odd that Anet keeps nerfing them to high heaven when other builds are clearly overpowered... Bleh. Such is the price you pay for not having a monthly fee. KrelusDerian 02:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want to suggest ways to make paragons better and more balanced, feel free to do so. Please don't go about in a roundabout way of insinuating that ArenaNet is bullying players because they aren't paying them monthly (and all just because you find paragons disappointing and ignoring everything else about the game). If anything, a non-subscription-based model takes even more work to keep players happy enough to have them buy follow-up products. -- ab.er.rant 05:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, no, don't misunderstand me, I wasn't insinuating that they were bullying people at all. I guess I just forgot about the add-ons you can buy such as extra characters, mostly because I never use them. I'm not going to remedy my above post since I think it serves as a good warning to really consider what you type before posting xD So, yeah, I apologize, no offense intended and I hope none was taken.KrelusDerian 16:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I apologize if seem to be overreacting. I took things a bit too seriously when I was around just now. -- ab.er.rant 17:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

KrelusDerian, this quote ("they're only useful in extremely narrow situations") is so wrong. I have played little other professions than the paragon since the release of Nightfall and I have made my paragon more versitile than my ranger and a better tanker than my warrior (which are the two professions that I played before Nightfall). Despite the nerfs, the paragon (in my opinion) still remains the most useful profession by a long way, although I must agree that some of the nerfs do seem senseless, but I work around them. The paragon is the most under rated of all professions and if more people considered that there is a lot of uses for the paragon, we would see many more in PvE. Thanks, FirstSunspear 09:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldnt call it the most useless, the most narrow profession is more correct my main character is a paragon however it has gotten pretty boring since there are only like what?, 30 viable skills to choose from couting all proffession. About thier elites what else can be said other than lame. The Paragon got 2 IAS skills one elite wich is pretty much useless and the other was recently nefed to the point of being as useful as the other paragons skills in PvE atleast since it now drains the monks. But fear not they got like two or three builds that actually can be used in PvE as a lone paragon in 6-8 player parties (Im afriad you nolonger can use it in 4 player parties due to some of the recent nerfs)--85.225.130.18 21:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the way in which they gain Energy and effect "allies" could have been handled much better b/c both parts of the equation were total mathematical nightmares similar to Necro Soul-Reaping. When making the bread&butter Shouts and Chants, they should have made 2 versions, a weak "Allies" version that blankets everything in Earshot, and a stronger but limited "Party Member" version. And then there's the Energy gain issue. In order to meet my own Energy demands on my 'Goon' I had to equip all my heroes with Mark of Rodgort and carry GreaterConflag + GlowingSignet wherever I go. The minute I join a PuG without my heroes, I'm starved of Energy and limping behind everyone like a wounded duck. It's such BS that Dervishes get 4 pips, Rangers get 3, but Goons only get 2 pips. --ilr

Paragons are by far the most versatile profession in the game! they have skills for almost anything... they can kill casters quick and easy by reaplying dazed, they can easily deal damage with fire and spear, they can heal(in my opinion) just as well as any monk, do not say that they need to be more versatile. I'll agree to pointless elites. there are hardly any good ones, but that's the fun of it! using elites from other professions to create an awesome build!Zeph 19:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually quite shocked that the only conversation I ever started that got a significant number of responses was me being an ignorant pillock. Tbh, I didn't really know much about Paragon back in November, and since my friend uses one a lot and I've frequently enjoyed his support, I can definitely say that a paragon is a wonderful thing to have at your side. If I ever get around to buying more character slots, I'm absolutely going to make a paragon. The whole class is sort of like Hundred Blades. At first glance, it's not too impressive, but once you really get to thinking about synergy, the pieces come together and you've got a big smile on your face. KrelusDerian 04:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What I would like to see is paragons, getting more abilities to solo, like motivtion having some skills to self motivate,or something like that, because paragons seem to be the only profession out of the 10 that have no ability whatsoever to solo, they perhaps could be slightly nerfed in the party wide shouts, but they should have something that lets them solo the kind of standard of monsters that all other proffessions can solo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.140.87.108 (talk • contribs) at 05:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC).

They can't mitigate attacks and be offensive at the same time. They just act as buffer, they buff teams and are good at that. Spamming attacks with the Paragon is weak, since you must stop to do chants to restore energy, you have 2 pip of energy and need allies to gain energy. The only way to be solo is Ranger/Paragon. Crank up the Expertise and Spear Mastery, equip Escape and Lightning Reflexes and make your own R/P build.--ShadowFog 14:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Minions

Does skills which description says "each ally in the earshot" effect on minions? (Limu Tolkki - talk) 16:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Any skill that effects "each ally" or "all allies" should effect on friendly minions. - HeWhoIsPale 16:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok thanks. (Limu Tolkki - talk) 14:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

On a seemingly unrelated topic, para skills go VERY well w/ minions...Zeph 02:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes... "Fall Back!" does give them some regen and speed. Remember that spirits can trigger shout/chants unlike minions.--ShadowFog 03:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Paragons are not as weak as they seem.

Paragons have good skills to heal damage but they have long recharge so my opinion is . One must have a feel when to use them.Similar to a mesmer you gotta know when what to cast. Also paragons aren't bound by their earchot range & Leadership. For Random arenas use a high adrenal build like: Spear of lightning / Barbed spear/ Blazing spear / Cruel spear / Signet of agression / "For Great Justice" / Leader's Comfort / Ressurection signet. Same works for AB if you swap Ress signet for 'Fall back" And Dervishes are stong only becouse of their enchantments if you rend them the dervish is a walking corpse. -Sigon Kira --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:77.70.60.74 (talk).

Imo, Paragons need a whole new do over of skills and class it self. They are the most unstable class ever.
I mean seriously, They have Invici Paragons, and their primary attribute Leadership is causing Nerfs to Warrior shouts and is fair to the warriors? Look at WY and Fear me. -.- Halogod35 05:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know why Fear Me got nerfed; I think Fear Me was good on it's own. But it doesn't benefit from Leadership because it affects enemies, not your party. I like the idea of "Half Support-Half Damage" and I especially like the way the buffs work (Basically pumping up each player's next attack), but I agree something has to give. This profession isn't good enough to warrant all the nerfs.Miss Innocent 23:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Actualy it's not the skills that couse the imbalance it's Leadership & ofc the multi para team.- Sigon Kira

Fear Me was being abused by Warriors in HA. Granted; the build they were in had Paragon healers; but the warriors caused the nerf themselves. Also Fear Me wouldn't trigger leadership as it affects foes. RitualDoll 07:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Imo, Paragons are just fine the way they are, the are one of the best professions, so please stop whining. I love paragons, but i can't stand people who say "OMG, GFTE is nerfed , now paragon sux!", all professions get key skills nerfed, of paragon gets a key skill nerfed, then make another build. Of all my chars is spend the most time on my paragon. Indeed some builds are IMBA, but all professions have IMBA builds (N/Rt),(A/D),(R/N) ...., BUT if Anet nerfs one of these skills, so what?, people will always find other ways to make their character overpowered. IMHO, paragon has excellent DPS and has the best IAS of all. About leadership: why is leadership too strong? paragon chants cost 10 or 15 energy, while a warrior uses more adrenaline, the skills of a paragon are equally energy heavy as those of a monk or necromancer. A necromancer has soul reaping, whats the difference with leadership?, soul reaping can give you 12 energy per death at attribute lvl 12, here the necro doesn't have to do anything, he just gets the energy for free, while a paragon has to use a shout or chant and gets 6 energy for every ally in earshot affected at the same attribute level, but the paragon has to use a shout or chant. If leadership would get nerfed because of watch yourself or GFTE it would be fair, but the paragon wouldn't be able to use his 10 energy shouts would he?, and remember all others (except warrior and ranger) have 4 energy regen, but a paragon has a measly 2 energy regen. Oh, and please, fellow paragon users, don't only do P/w , use other secondaries too, a P/E is fun, P/Me can be fun, try new things!! why do things get nerfed, because of overusing them, copying builds from others, BE INVENTIVEFenrir Dragonbone 15:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Idk what Dragonbone was smoking, but his whole comment is bs. SERIOUS BUFF NEEDED.

Compairsion with Communism

• Paragons are usless alone but together they are strong.
• They are a conservative proffession.
• They are hated by Capitalists.
• They have upkeeps that they must continiously pay to support the team else they lose something valuable.
• Mainly focuses on party wide bufffs and have less usefull targeting buffs.
• Everyone is suppose to have their say, paragons are experts at that.
• In the end there is only one way to play them, other ways are not allowed.

Kinda scary isnt it?--85.225.130.95 01:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

That is the exact reason why players find paragons inferior as a class. You need at least two paragons in the group to see how they are actually useful due their long recharge and poor selection of elite skills. If you take into consideration: you really only need one ranger in a group to see the effectiveness of the class (for the ranger profession that is), for warriors you can tell they are helping the group by causing conditions on the enemies and using adrenline based skills, mesmers it is obvious enough to see their use and generally only one is needed in a group, necromancers the more you have in a group the better although still have a lot of potential if they are the only necromancer in a group, and as you can guess you can fill in the rest for the other classes. When it comes to paragons, you really can only see their usefulness if there is more than one of them in a group whether it is support, damage , or dps buffs.William Wallace 10:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Even a lone paragon is good. Unremovable buffs. Hell, Defensive Anthem is party wide dmg reduction which casters can't remove with their own skills. Elites look like crap at 1st glance but when you think about it most suit a sertain situation. You need to adapt your build you your group layout. A group with a paragon will have it easier then a group without one most of the time ( ofc there's the imba PvE skill Ursan but it doesn't get hit with the nerf bat.) - Sigon Kira --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:77.70.60.74 (talk).

Right..... when all of the paragon elites have a twenty second recharge for a half decent heal or buff when you can take along a Savannah heat elemenatlist and see the effectiveness that team member is having on your group. Ritualist will always be a better supporter of groups than paragons will ever be and you will also have to invite at least another paragon into your group to make use of the first one.William Wallace 18:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Not completely true, a singe paragon can be good in PvE with "There's Nothing To Fear!", "Save Yourselves!" in high lvl with the standard Paragon build(yes there is only one :P), the problem is in PvP where there is very little or no use for a singel paragon (a few exeptions exists but they are rare).--85.225.131.166 20:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Rawr have won 4 monthlies. They run a single paragon. Little use...yeah right. Lord of all tyria 20:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Your point is??? Wow like winning four tournaments makes a team superior....it doesn't matter how many they win because you never see paragons being selected over the other classes. Also after today's nerfs, who would want to play them??William Wallace 05:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously using the most successful guild currently in the game as an example was silly of me. Maybe you should look at the vast number of top 100 guilds running a single paragon, clearly they are useful. People who think paragons are underpowered lack understanding. Lord of all tyria 17:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

No. You lack understanding. GvG isn't everything. I'm sure people (like myself) would love to run Paragon elsewhere, too. -.- RitualDoll 07:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Paragons take much time to use well, and I'll agree that they are majorly nerfed, but, they still have so many uses everywhere that it almost seems pointless not to have on on the team. Morgahn is my healer, my only healer, in pve, and I get through the other campaigns quick and easy, even the end of nightfall is a breeze w/ him... many people do not see the use in echoes, but, they are much more useful than the upkeep skills. though they really have no useful elites, the rest of their skills are probably the best in the game, so stop dissing the paragon guys! they, by far, have the best potential outta all the professions, and because of that, I can put up with the nerfing.

Paragons with an AL of 100??

I actually had hope when I first checked out this update about making paragons more viable in pve.William Wallace 10:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, all my armor level really does is make the enemies attack everyone else first. I mean, it was great because I got survivor in my sleep, but more armor doesn't seem all that useful. The paragon always seems to die last; even when I fight against them, I usually think "The paragon doesn't really do much and has a bunch of armor, we'll kill it last". A necromancer with no healing skill but Well of Blood would usually make for a higher priority target. Please correct me if I'd be directing my party wrong, but I think the only annoying monster paragons are the ones that res.Miss Innocent 23:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That's because monsters tend to have widely varying builds. There are 10 useful skills out of 85 paragon has, so it stands to a reason that most paragon mobs have complete crap skill loadouts. For insance, paragon without good spear mastery and aggressive refrain is a waste. How many mobs have Aggressive refrain? Probably 1 paragon mob. So yeah, paragon mobs are a non-threat. The hardest ones are those with Vicious Spear cos of all the DW spam they cause(20+ level increases critical chance). --Spura 18:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I wanna know wich ten skills you are talking about... cuz honestly, spear mastery is a waste, other than inflicting dazed, I wouldn't even have a spear(btw spear swipe is in leadership)... I use almost every para skill in one build or another, I have about 13 completely different builds so... I honestly don't understand why everyone thinks the para is horrible...Zeph 19:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

They're terrible because everything you can use the Paragon for, another profession does better. Wanna inflict Deep Wound? You can take Cruel Spear, or you can take Wounding Strike, or Eviserate, both of which are easier to use but also -always- inflict deep wound. Defensive Anthem < Aegis, Signet of Synergy < Ghostmirror Light, "It's Only a Flesh Wound!" < Restore Condition. Get the idea? 72.81.247.139 09:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Unlike Wounding Strike or Eviscerate, Cruel Spear is ranged. Defensive Anthem cannot be removed by anything once activated. "It's just a flesh wound." is the quickest recharging and the quickest activating (it can't be interrupted in any way) condition removal in the game. Also, as a paragon you can use skills like defensive anthem while still being able to deal some damage with your spear, you have one of the best ias in the game ( Aggressive Refrain) and excellent energy management and party-wide damage increase via Leadership and "Go for the Eyes!", and I can go on. Boogy (Talk/Contributions) 16:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I started w/ the para, tried another profession, didn't like it... the para is the only profession I have been able to beat ANY game w/, and I have beaten all four of them with mine... I beat Nightfall 3 times... all three w/ a para... SO, yes, to all the noobs who do not see the point in using echoes, the para is useless... but to everyone else, the para is probably the best profession in the game... they are nerfed a tad too much in my opinion, but, they are powerful enough that I can see why...Zeph 23:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Balancing Paragons

Ok, the general concensus I've found among the GW community is that paragons are fundamentally imbalanced. In that, while not so overpowered with one paragon on your team, paragons get exponentially more powerful the more of them there are. Thus whenever you nerf or (heaven forbid) buff a paragon skill you have to not only consider how it will be used with one paragon but how it could be used with eight. This leads to the ridiculous overnerfing of paragon skills like "Incoming!" where, unless you had 8 paragons on the team it would be completely useless. I have been reading about and playing paragons for a while and have heard many different opinions on how to balance paragons, but they all center around one thing, weakening the strength of all-paragon teams and to a lesser extent multiple paragons on a team. I will know put forth a potential solution of my own and would appreciate any feedback you people have on it. My solution is simply to make non-targeted paragon shouts and chants unable to effect OTHER paragons in PvP (non-targeted meaning that you use mending refrain on another paragon but using defensive anthem would do nothing for him). This would exponentially weaken multiple paragon teams. Now a team with one paragon wouldn't see any decrease in power, and it would still be reasonable to chain paragon skills with 2 or even 3 paragons but beyond that their effectiveness in teams would be greatly decreased simply because their shouts/chants wouldn't effect other paragons. Feedback is very welcome. Psychiatric Consultant 16:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I want something similar remove the ability to create teams of 8 of the same proffession. Make it something you can't have more then 2-3 of the same primary proffessionin a team. That would remove the couse for these unending nerfs to the paragon & alot of other skills who were exploited by the high PvP community & got nerfed. It's unfair to balance skills based on high end PvP. The primary example i can think of is WoH it got buffed. While not kind of a big deal in high end pvp when there will be dazed & interupts or shutdown it's cousing imbalance in other pvp arenas ( Notably RA) where players aren't as prepeared to bring down a monk. Sigon Kira --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:77.70.60.74 (talk).

Dictateing who and what you can use in a team is going way to far...72.57.231.232 00:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well if the comunity won't willingly do something for the sake of overall balance you force it to do it. Otherwise titans & destroyers would not be resistant to fire & forcing every ele to have atleast one more build used , even if it's not all the time. (77.70.60.74 08:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC))

No I have to agree that would be going way too far, I think they really need to 1: rework Leadership, to be more like Expertise only it affects paragon skills and shouts. 2 paragon’s skills need a rework across the board; they should do subtle short lasting part wide buffs. Obviously command is about dealing dmg, defensive anthem should not be in that line, command skills should have shouts and chant that give more dmg to attack, shortens recharge times of spell and increases attack speed, SLIGHTLY! (Subtle and short). With reasonable recharge times and since they'll have an expertise like affect with leadership they can be a bit harsh with the nrg cost. Likewise with motivation, defensive skills should go here, short armor boost dmg bass reduction and %dmg reduction. Health regen so on and so forth should be here. Leadership, should have skills that are more geared towards the paragons personal performance (lead by example) a gambit of strong but short duration or conditional self defensive and offensive skill should go here along with skills that you don’t want other professions to abuse. Spear master... duh. Making a clear division of skill purposes based upon attributes forces the player to pick either on role or another, attempting to fulfill multiple roles greatly lessens the paragon’s effectiveness. (so if u get a team with 8 paragons they can't all cover themselves, unless they are all motivation, in which case their dps will be lacking likewise if they were all command their defense would be lacking. altering leadership makes paragons more viable in smaller groups and the skill changes there would even allow paragons to take non party support role allowing them to be a simple affective spear chucker or even a tank, when the need permits (subtle and short damnit!!!). And most importantly, the biggest issue with paragons is that they were designed around a game mechanic that was greatly ignored throughout the last 2 campaigns and have no effective counter and now way of removing them (vocal minority aside) a number of skills in the Mesmer & necromancer lines are designed to strip enchantments, basically they are buff strippers (that sounds so dirty). Simply add "and one shout/chant or echo is removed". Now there is an acceptable counter to their shenanigans? Which most teams would be packing anyway? And if you’re facing a paragon team and you’re not packing a buff stripper or two, that’s your fault. hey if I give you a anti shot gun blast shield then tell you I’m going to shoot you with a shotgun and you decide to take the chance and leave the shield at home, whose fault is that?174.144.68.130 20:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)Auron Bushi

Paragons: The nancy- boys of GW

is it just me, or does the paragon armor seem sissy or even gay?? i mean seriously, the guys wear sparkly skirts and platinum popstar outfits. sure, dervs wear skirts too, but at least they have some giant swords or whatever the heck it is on them. and another thing about dervish armor-- they are the new melee class, so they should get 80 armor not paragons, all paragons do is sing in the background. i like paragons, but its just that arenanet should consider leaving the sparkly crap for the female paragons. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Valion Sentis (talk).

Dervs should not get 80 armor. They already crit for 150 damage without attack skills and have 4 pips of energy regen (both outclassing warriors), so in no way should they get the armor as well.

Yeah, Paragons are pretty flamboyant, but I think that was in their design; look at how they cast stuff like Anthem of Weariness. However, they do get one or two armors that aren't marching band gay. Check out Paragon Norn armor and Paragon Vabbian armor. -Auron 02:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Male elementists are the gayest guys of gws. their dance is like wtf. anyway who cares if theyre gay? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.108.172.113 (talk).

(Edit conflict) I'll leave you to your opinion on paragon armor, since it's subjective and depends on what visuals you associate with masculinity and femininity. The part about armor is what you are wrong. If you give dervishes the same armor as warriors, yet with greater damage potential than warriors, what's the use of warriors? As for why paragons have 80 armor, it could be because they're supposed to be a more defensive profession. But try playing an axe paragon and taking advantage of that armor :) -- ab.er.rant 02:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

"since it's subjective and depends on what visuals you associate with masculinity and femininity." AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Love, Vael Victus 04:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Paragons are hot. You're just jealous. —♥Jedi♥Rogue♥ 04:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Erm not rly, they are gay. At least the armor and dance shows so. Michael Jackson... omg ANet u overdid it with the humor. I know you have nothing against homosexuals, but making a gay class shows you actually SUPPORT them! Ninjas In The Sky 13:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You should take a look what some of latest popular boy bands out of Korea and Japan look like these days >.< -- ab.er.rant 15:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You should see what black metal bands and hip hop acts dress like too. o.o; Vael Victus 19:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Google manowar pics --> ultimate win. Ninjas In The Sky 04:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol yeah because Manowar is obviously black metal. Vael Victus 19:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

WHATS WRONG WITH U PEOPLE? if paragons are gay so be it xD,i think paragons can look very manly, u guys are just jealous (joking), paragons are an evil invention by Anet! they are too hot xD , thats just IMO =P Fenrir dragonbone 21:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, i got some hate xD and i guess u guys r right about dervishes. But still, i stand by my decision to label paragons as homosexuals. oh, and srry i forgot to sign my first comment :/ Valion Sentis 06:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

wish they would swap the dyeable and nondyable portions of paragon armor. i mean it would still look odd but atleast we wouldnt have to be draped in ivory174.144.68.130 09:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually the Paragons appearance fits perfectly with what they are and where they come from. If you don't believe read the like[1]. What I'm saying is that the paragon is not gay at all. The white and gold armor represents purity and leadership. They are the ones who have reached a point in human perfection where the wings of the spirit become viable and the power of the gods flow through there words empowering them and there allies with the strength and the Will to fight on. In NF and GWEN the Paragon was always give allot of respect. Kormir and Egil Fireteller are among these individuals. The Dervish on the other hand does not have the same status as the Paragon. A dervish is completely devoted to there religion. In my opinion its a wonder some of them even fighting at all. Because after NF most of the dervish would have no reason to fight at all(excluding the servants of Grenth and Balthazar). In NF the only reason any of the dervishes fought at all was to please there god or because of the Abaddon defiling what the gods had left for them. If you look at how they act and deal with problem it is how they think there god would want them to deal with it. This also explains why they can take the form of there god. Have another Link[2]. I should make something to explain how dervishes would act based on there god.--Yozuk 08:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

If you guys took the time to learn some ancient history, you'd realise the Paragon's armor is based upon the ancient Greek armor[3], fitting with the African theme of NF. If you'd rather not read the link, watch "300". 144.134.69.96 13:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Iknow this is late, but personally i havent that much against the paragons armor other than the color, if i could change the primary color instead of the trim it would be easier to tolerate. The 'all white' look is just too much...white.62.150.7.18 10:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I know this is bloody late, but the sheer array of homophobia and implied sexism is frankly staggering here. Jesus. 86.27.189.195 09:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)Alathaea

Volfen Nerf

As title says.. not sure if it still works.. dont have a para with EotN elites so i can't test it. Lt Death 17:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Its crippled, but the echoes still carry over... so it still works...Zeph 02:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Motivation skills

Motivation skills. Before I start off the bat with the statement, what skills in this tree are useful? And by that I mean, PvP wise and skills that doesnt require a team of Paragon to used, skills you take into battle everyday as in RA,TA and AB(the popular arenas). Does it pass more than 5?--ShadowFog 04:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The new flesh wound. And that's about it. -Auron 16:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The Motivation skills really need a major re-work! Requirements for party members to get a bonus is not what I call "helping", synergy or Anthems nor making random requirements for these to activate: sometimes a spell, sometimes an attack skill and sometimes a signet, then the real skills are elite, the ones that require a skill, for example, it takes no brain to figure out that you wont take a Aria of Zeal nor Aria of Restoration since you dont have spell but if you were a amateur designer you too would have made like 4 version of this just to elevate the number of skills the game will have... The finales here are atrocious beyond thinking, the finales wont be re-apply and they require 3 skills to work they could have just name them skill instead of Echo since they dont have any special attribute(if it is an automobile why not just name it car?), a random skill, a random chant to that random skill and any finale making RA unplayable with this tree or finding teams that will work with you in other arenas bothersome and unresponsive, yeah Ive tried. These amateurs need GW players to help them. 12 of the 22 skills(including PvP) already have a feedback, looks like the others no one has touched yet. Its better to look at the Feedback and give some ideas.--ShadowFog 03:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to add...I guess they werent meant for RA or TA?--ShadowFog 03:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Im trying to make a Motivation build but I keep hitting brick walls like:

• No good Paragon blocking skill
• This tree offers no help in the offensive department
• No defensive skills
• Chants have a too long of a recharge.
• Since recharge becomes a problem, Finales seems like burden of energy.
• Etc.

No one in PvX has a GOOD motivation build. Anyone has a Motivation build?. I wont judge it or critice, I just want a good motivation build. We've paid good money for these.--ShadowFog 05:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I wish I knew what you guys were talking about... as soon as I get a sousuke (or any other ele that can handle paragon skills) I turn him into a motivation paragon until I have a proper para to do so with it... I NEVER use a monk... Course this is for pve... I don't pvp much, but when I do I usually use both motivation and leadership... and it seems to work well... (I don't give out my builds though)...Zeph 23:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The only Motivation skills worth bringing atm are the elites, and you hardly need Motivation for them to be effective. And in PvE it's even worse, since 1 PvE-only shout outdoes an entire Motivation support build. I almost deleted my Paragon because of that, but I am thinking about switching to Command or Leadership instead. At least they have decent skills. 145.94.74.23 13:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Worst DPS and Worst skill against attacks

I dont get it! From assasin I get a spike of 50-60 per hit going down in seconds same thing from other classes, I dont see any skill to protect me while I slowly gain adrenaline, Aggressive Refrain is gay in AB RA and TA wtf give with Cracked Armor it just put me with the rest of the low armor classes and must need a N skill for effectiveness?, Leader's Comfort is the worst healing skill in the game for being in prymary which gets whacked to Resful Breeze at 0 attribute, worst DPS in the game, best DPS? I dont think so, this class when its alone just gets whacked from any other Profession. It needs buff to almost all skills plus being a class that doesnt do a lot of damage, takes too much adrenaline to do effective skills plus having no actual blocking skill that can last more than 1 hit its very easy for even a W to take it down, the best way this class has as defense in the lame Barbed Spear->Maiming Spear considering that your target isnt already using a blocking skill.--65.23.206.170 20:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it really incredible how you manage to chain together a large number of unrelated points using mostly commas... anyway, you just don't realise where paragons can shine that would warrant weakening them. From your complaints, you also appear to be trying to use this as you would some other profession, which is wrong. You'll find more explanations if you'd simply scroll up and read. -- ab.er.rant 05:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well...first of all dont use Leader's Comfort, it takes 2 seconds and it can heal you only for 140 IF you have teammates around while a Restful Breeze can heal for 160. I know what Aggressive Refrain's problem is: if no one can remove your Cracked Armor and if the situation calls for no Cracked Armor(against E for example) your trapped in an Echo, try using Weapon of Aggression. And as for people using stances and enchantments against attacks, you are pretty well screwed. Wild Throw is unreliable and you dont have any Precision Shot skill to help you gain adrenaline easier. Oh yeah, they are strong together which is the problem that GuildWars team have not yet addressed, meaning if you are alone on the field, which you say AB, you are useless. Energy problems arises, cant pass through stances and lack of blocking skills.--ShadowFog 11:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Nothing stops you from switching targets to build up adrenaline for Wild Throw. As a paragon you should not go alone. Paragons were made for teams not 1v1. --Boogy (Talk/Contributions) 13:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The truth is that paragons are made for other paragons lets all be ego and lead our own game Lilondra 16:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thats truth. I cant seem to make a build other than relying on the elite Cruel Spear. This class has the worse energy management when alone, you might as well invent a suicide skill when you spawn all alone in PvP. Ive been trying as hell to do a build around other elites and it isnt worth it since there no potential. Been the class with the most useless elites, it clear that the intentions is to keep this class out of PvP thats why players try to exploit it like say a full team of Paragons.--ShadowFog 21:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

My paragon's DPS isn't bad. However I can't seem to function properly as a support paragon with their anthems and mess. I'm just a simple spear chucker and it works just fine. I do warn groups though, that I'm not a support. Still, I've seen a lot of people do fine with them and I am pretty badass with my spear chucking DW/Bleed build.- Vanguard 05:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Bows have the worst DPS. Spears are way better than them. Spears are faster and one-handed, and their attack skills don't get unnecessary nerfs every update72.71.234.146 14:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Paragon is definetly not a high-damage class. If you really want to do some damage, and are one of those people that actually does crazy stuff like read skill descriptions, you can set up some mild spikes , or maintain 50 to 70 damage per spear and be fine for Normal Mode, and still be able to buff the party with "Theres Nothing To Fear" , which makes you worth a slot anywhere. Spear Of Fury is enough to fuel,Stunning Strike and/or Blazing Spear, add "Find Thier Weakness to include a deep wound and you are Dazing and Deep-wounding whatever you are hitting making it an easy quick kill. They are not awe-inspiring easy buttons, but they have thier place. Paragons do have an easy button too tho. Its mostly found in your Leadership Attribute. TNTF and SY and SoF keep each other rolling, so play around and see how burly you can make Koss in HM. You can pretty much make him invincible................ It's fun ^^ 66.190.225.109 19:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Echo Volven removed

Reasons as to why Lilondra removed the article? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:ShadowFog (talk).

Ask her (or him *shrugs*). -- ab.er.rant 04:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

him :p and because all blessings have been updated this build no longer works and is outdated Lilondra 14:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Correction... the build still works (echoes do carry over, for the time being), but, like every other para build...it is severely hampered... because of the echoes and whatnot already in the build, when volven runs out, use an adrenaline shout to gain some energy to use a 5 energy shout (assuming you have 16 leadership this should give you up to 11 energy) and use your echoes and whatnot on a sin or something... you just have to switch between primary attacker to buffer... any good para is used to it :)Zeph 02:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"...all allies in earshot...", spirits too!

I didn't know this. Some spells says "target ally" or "...allies..." but did you know that Paragon shouts/chants can affect spirits too? I summoned Pain then proceed with something like Crippling Anthem and since spirits attacks are skills too they will crippled the foe.--ShadowFog 03:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want offense...

This class is not meant to go like a Ranger nor a Warrior. Is to buff party members. For newbs, use a R/P if you want so drastically to spam Spear skills.--ShadowFog 18:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

THANKYOU! Somehow, no one ever seems to understand this. Paragons are useful because of their Echoes mainly... their spear is pretty much pointless.Zeph 22:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

lol — Skakid 22:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's pretty laughable when noobs Paragon go Spear Chucker and can't even pass a simple Guardian while a Critical Fox Assassin owned him easily, laughable in all PvP arenas. Even better in RA and AB. Can't say the same with a Ranger/Paragon though.--ShadowFog 03:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

But even worse when people say that that is ALL a paragon is good for...Zeph 02:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Spam Spear skills! Easier said than done when most Spear skills have a cooldown of 6 seconds or more. Tho I find my Paragon fun to play it is very annoying how slow all the spear skills recharge.--92.18.157.91 18:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Imbalance TOURNAMENT

The tournament is in session for the title of most overpowered class! Now our studio audience has chosen a few professions and it's up to YOU to decide which is the most overpowered!!! The winner will receive plenty of nerfs and a $10,000 prize! Now, let's see the contestants!

CONTESTANT 1: The Paragon! Using the right shouts and adrenaline abilities, the Paragon can be invincible in PvE adventures!

CONTESTANT 2: The Assassin! Using a "perma sin" setup, this class can be invincible in PvE or PvP! Makes sure you are A/E though.

CONTESTANT 3: The Dervish! With the ability to take down two level 20 Warriors in under 8 seconds and the knack of slaughtering an entire team singlehandedly while the rest of his team looks on in amusement in the Random Arenas, the Dervish has earned the reputation of being a lethal weapon.

NOW! CHOOSE a NOMINEE for the most overpowered class! --68.207.156.253 22:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)Kaysan Smithee

I lul'd at that. Though, I must point out that the Assassin can't be Perma in PvP; they lowered the timeslot in the PvP version of the skill. It's around 22 seconds in PvP, if I read right. That aside, I vote for the Dervish. It's hilarious how powerful these guys are. For me, that is. ^.^ (1. I don't PvP. 2. It's funny to rip mobs apart in PvE. 3. Gods. Come on. Sadly, I don't think I use Forms anymore. o: ) Kuro Tenshi 00:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

My paragon can get butchered pretty easily if pounded on, even with the imbagon build. My assassin only uses perma for farming which shouldn't be considered real PvE anyway. And my dervish is awesome and I'd go as far as to say she's mediocre. There's nothing wrong with hitting 100's in PvE, and less so in Hard Mode stuff (where my forms don't see to work as well anyway).-- anguard 00:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

For PvE I don't see anything overpowered(unless you mean some farming builds), it's a necessary in elite missions and in EoTN. Dervishes like the Paragon has a hard time against blocking skills, so if you let yourself get hit because you didn't brought any melee hate, A spear chucker Paragon or Dervish will kill you in an instant. Even a Ritualist can kill a Dervish easily. Bring some melee hate if you are a weakling profession.--ShadowFog 12:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Necros are the most overpowered prof in pvp atm, followed by paras. Sins are still pretty terrible everywhere but HB, cept bb sins. 86.147.65.196 09:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

terrible

worst profession in the game -1 OF 10

VOTE NOW!--99.155.67.101 07:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

minnion killer says hello http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh28/0rg3ron/gw011.jpg --Orgeron 19:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

HoF + banishing strike sez STFU --ilr 05:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

loltroll. Paragons are by far the best profession for PvE. So i herd partywide buffs that give 35% or so damage reduction and +100al are in fact IMBA. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.34.128.19 (talk).

how often do you see a derv with thees skills? never (ok, hohf maby :P) but my point is that holy spear is an attack skill that you can take becouse it's only 4 adrenalin, the "burning minion to ashes" is just a bonus :P. and i have never seen a derv that would kill minnions whan the can kill the master as quick. yes, the imbagon is great, but whats more great is that paras that work together in a team can be imba all of them. i and half of my guild have now gotten paras, why? team work and they will be unstopible! there is no bad proffessions, only players who can't play them. --Orgeron 22:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's the worst profession in the game. Why? Simple. In PvP, they get balanced because they have high damage (one-handed and ranged too!), high armor and unremovable buffs. Thus their skills are weak. That's fair, but it makes the profession boring to play because you do so little. In PvE, they get "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "Save Yourselves!", which make the entire Motivation line obsolete and even manage to outclass Command (which does something different, go figure). So you're boring in PvP, and you can only play 1 build in PvE. That was enough for me to stop playing the Paragon. 145.94.74.23 13:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

...except cruel spear + technobabble + ebs honor is amazing. Paragons (still) have the most broken primary attribute for PvE, and you can abuse it with any combination of spells and skills and still never run out of energy. Warriors can slightly outdamage paragons, except they can't get close to the party wide utility or the spell shutdown that paragons throw about with no effort.

I'm going to have to assume you're trolling, though, since saying "paragons only have 1 build" is like saying "monks only have 1 build;" ridiculously wrong. -Auron 13:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have a Paragon for PvE, I assume that you must have the hero Paragon too. There's a hell of a lot of synergies and builds available when at least two Paragons are present for PvE. For PvP, giving your whole team of 12 in AB shouts/chants so they can outbest other foes (like inflict weakness with their next attacks skill or allies removes conditions with their next skill) seems pretty powerful to me.--ShadowFog 20:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have 12 allies in earshot, then no amount of paragonnage is going to help you win AB. Raine - talk 23:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Although I disagree with you but I will defend to the death your right to say so.--ShadowFog 02:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You know that a profession is terrible when people suggest to use PvE skills in order to improve. You are right Auron, they have more than one build in PvE, but they're all either an extension of the Imbagon, Paraway or some gimmicky combo using other overpowered PvE-only skills. The single, non-PvE skill using Paragon has little to offer to a team. 145.94.74.23 10:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Paragons are so powerful in PvE because those "gimmicky overpowered PvE-only skills" and the skills Paragons have themselves augment each other. Dark Morphon 11:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

But then I'd like to know: how does one play an effective Paragon in PvE without those skills? 145.94.74.23 14:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Paragons have been over nerfed, there they're not a bad idea but A net is just mean to paragons, they take everything good away :( --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 122.106.108.92 (talk).