User talk:42

From Guild Wars Wiki

User:42

Projects

Feedback/Talk page

User:42's Sandbox

42's Helpful Links

How-To Guides (Basic Level)

How-To Guides (Advanced)

How-To Guides (Beyond)

Archives

Please add new topics to the end of the page.

[edit] Archives

• Archive2009-11-16 (YYYY/MM/DD)
• Archive2009-11-18
• Archive2009-11-22

[edit] Do you not remember anything?

(Beginning of this section moved here.)

Take my "unwillingness to provide the required information" that I have already provided (repeatedly) any way you want. In fact, the wiki also helps with that. Click the category link at the bottom of any categorized page, and follow that link up the chain, as Wyn is fond of recommending in response to many of my points. There. More documentation. You will more than likely, as many others have done, refuse to see it, again, and claim I didn't provide it, again. People refusing to accept or see it doesn't mean it hasn't been given.

Read closely the main page of THIS WIKI (right at the top of the page), "Welcome to the official Guild Wars Wiki, the comprehensive Guild Wars reference written and maintained by the players." (my emphasis). Might I recommend you look up comprehensive. I would say that I have a pretty good grasp of what this wiki is, and what it intends to document. Care to reconsider that I am acting "solely based on enthusiasm" yet? I will admit that the "how it works" part I apparently don't have a full handle on, because it seems to me that "how it works" is often in almost blatant opposition to that statement on the main page.

My attempt to thoroughly document applicable categories (this one, Category:NPCs with elite skill, Category:Drops unique), rejected, in apparent agreement with the main page statement, and in supposed opposition to "how it works." My attempt to get the Norn dialoge template in use, not totally rejected, but not accepted as well as it could be. If in use, would help document the game better. Again, apparently in agreement with the statement on the main page, still not sure if it is in opposition to "how it works." Is this "enough information to back up my claims?" Do you still think I am acting "solely based on enthusiasm?"

I provide the information that you claim I haven't time and time again and get told by people who cannot be bothered to read my "wall of text" that I haven't provided that information. All I have been given in "justification" of their point of view is that it is not consensus, or it supposedly violates guidelines.

• Guideline - "1. A non-specific rule or principle that provides direction to action or behaviour."
• Synonym - Rule of thumb - "A general guideline, rather than a strict rule."
• Oh, and that pesky little statement on the main page of this wiki, about a "comprehensive reference."

In fact, I have repeatedly presented my side with facts. I have not been given that same courtesy. I have seen very few (if any) facts to back up the other side, except for rare occasions such as your response that my idea for a mouse-over isn't possible (you still didn't really provide fact, just a statement). For example, claims that a guideline (that is being confused with policy, see the above definition of "guideline") has been violated is not a solid fact.

Your opinion is not any less valid because you hold it, nor because it is different than mine. I am not being given that same consideration. Because I hold an opinion that isn't shared by many others, my opinion is not valid.

Do you honestly think that when this wiki was started, that people just got it in their heads that they needed to discuss something endlessly before making an improvement? 42 - talk 03:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Let's stop for now...

(Beginning of this section moved here.)

(Reset indent) Whatever the case, I have the new improved (I hope) prospective templates ready for perusal. They do not need to be broken out in public because the real-world testing was done with the first set. This new set addresses many issues people have mentioned with the first ones, and some I think I might have missed the first time out. The page is long, but please read and understand, especially the presumptions at the top. This needs more in-game verification and testing by a few people to verify before I will put them out.

• Prospective Norn init dialogue version 2
• Prospective Norn bounty dialogue version 2

42 - talk 07:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Dry, I am presuming by your wording that you mean what in programming is called an "infinite loop." To the best of my knowledge, that wasn't the case. Unless I somehow made one during editing by saving the file before it was "finished" and it had a reference to itself, which is the only possible way. I am careful about those because they are a usually a huge pain in the butt, and often hard to find when you need to find it quickly.

To compare how wiki works as opposed to Java (as I see it), you "can" pass command line arguments to Java classes, and wiki templates. Wiki happens to call them parameters. Unlike Java a template cannot "operate" on anything that isn't given to it. All the wiki template knows how to do is to look at what it is given like a picture that it cannot change. It can perform basic functions depending on what is sent to it, but that is it. All it "returns" is another picture to whatever page or other template called it.

"By the way, just a question. You say you want to standarize a portion of the text but... Are the dialogues standard enough for that? It's quite easy to template them if they were, but if you need to change everything for each page, then is far more easier to just not template, or just do a template for the things that are actually simmilar between pages and leave the rest of the entry to be manually processed (as you did at Template:Norn bounty dialogue)" FD, that is what this discussion is about, that template. The format and dialogue line of talking is the same on these NPCs, the only difference is the actual text "said" by them. Each one has their own, but that still follows the template layout. 42 - talk 07:46, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"Isn't that error about recursive nesting?" FD, when I had that happen, I thought the same thing, so I checked and double checked and then checked a couple more times, to make sure, and I was still having that error. I asked Wyn, and she was the one that told me it was because of the template being in the userspace, and not the template space. Not saying that it won't happen from a template calling itself (or indirectly doing so), just that this wasn't the case this time. 42 - talk 23:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Just because Wyn says so doesn't mean it's the truth. Should have asked Poke instead XD. Sadly, since it appears you cannot duplicate the error, we will never know what it was exactly.--Fighterdoken 00:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I will not ask poke anything in regards to how things are done unless there is no other choice. I am not going to go into more so as not to have it taken as a "personal attack." By the way, shouldn't that also apply when someone is being singled out on their attempted improvements?

I will try to remake the sub pages I did before to repeat the error on here. If I remember properly, it also happened on versions of my first version of the templates in the mainspace now. Will check that as well. 42 - talk 06:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template issues

I've never had problems (except for crossing all my t's) with using templates in the userspace. You might have had problems calling a template from the page it's on; just make a separate page that only calls your sandbox template. --JonTheMon 02:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Truly, the mediawiki parser does not care what namespace the template is in: the Template namespace is simply the default. In my experience, most difficulties arise from the difficulties caused by failing to take that into account when working outside the Template namespace (which is all to easy to do – we've all done it, most of us probably more than once). Do also remember to take into account that a template substitution is just that: it is not a subroutine call like that of Java or a functional binding like that of Lisp. It has much more in common with macro substitution languages like that of the C preprocessor or m4. However, my only interest is in clearly highlighting the possible, not in proscribing any particular approach so I won't harp on about it any further. --DryHumour 03:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Then tell Wyn that. I got that error and thought I had made it so that the text called itself somehow. I checked through, and it was still having the error, Wyn was the one that told me about the template space issue.

As I posted above, the newest versions are up and ready to view and poke fun at. There are a lot of presumptions made, as you will see from looking at them. They are all listed on the prospective bounty dialogue template. I also redirected the discussion pages for each to here, so that I don't miss a comment that Dry made about my work before.  :P 42 - talk 07:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that but I really had to pee. I am putting out a call for help on this template, so we can verify what is correct, what needs to be tweaked, and so on. Anyone that has characters that can play in the EotN areas are asked for assistance. These all apply to explorable areas in EotN, so it is pretty straightforward, I hope. I will check what I can, but I do not play hard mode, so some of it I cannot check myself.

Here's what I need.

• Verification of the dialogue line is the same as that in my Norn bounty template proposed above. I understand the specific text will be different for each Norn. I just need verification that the order and layout is the same for every one of them.
• Verification that a Norn your character hasn't talked to yet "does" say something before the PC(Player Character) responds with "How can I be a part of the hunt".
• Verification that once you beat the Norn, but do not accept the Norn Hunting Party bounty and close the window, that the same text as "first contact" is repeated. This applies to the accept/decline buttons as well.
• Verification and/or documentation that the dialogue after killing at least 25 monsters in a map area that the text spoken when talking to a Norn is different for each Norn or not. If it always the same, then what text is "said".
• Verification that the same dialogue line idea is the same in hard mode (vanquishing) as it is in normal mode. If the text is exactly the same for each specific Norn in HM and NM, even better. If not, then what is it for that.
• Verification that the dialogue icons in all of these situations use the , , and icons, and in what specific times and situations they are used.

Basically, I need to know exactly what is "said" by a selection (larger than two) of res shrine Norn in all possible situations . If someone wants to help out and see if the collectors say anything different in HM than NM, that wouldn't hurt either. I need the range of different Norn so that it can be verified that they all follow the same dialogue line format. I am presuming by what I have been able to test, that each Norn has their own specific dialogue, but the order is the same. 42 - talk 07:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

42, what about where a template sends you to a cinematic? One of the quests/missions (forgot the name) sends you to a cinematic. It's noted after the answers. Just wondering about 'issues' or problems like that. -- riyen ♥ 03:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The template being talked about here is intended for the standard Norn res shrine guard. Adding that cinematic option to a template when only one or two have that would somewhat defeat the purpose of having this template. If that event happens on all (or the huge majority) of them, then we could add that. If there are any differences that happen on a few of them, we could use this template and add the different information after, or the dialogue section can be hand crafted specifically for those.

I am presuming that the "additional information" on Ragnvald referencing vanquishing is from Hard Mode. As I said, I don't know hard mode, I don't play it, and I cannot check the information from that. 42 - talk 04:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Dry, in the simple transclusion of a template, that is true, that is the case. However, I don't think this is a simple template transclusion because of asking the editor to add info, this is not just substitution template. 42 - talk 04:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] redirect categories

You know, it's not really helpful to have redirect categories. If a page is in that redirected category, it won't be listed with the other pages where it's supposed to be. --JonTheMon 08:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Was doing that more to add to the instruction of the page, to show what a redirect does in action, went a little overboard. 42 - talk 17:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, why did you create all those redirect pages? Like, just to get rid of red-links in examples? --JonTheMon 18:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

To show people if they clicked them, what was supposed to happen in a redirect. Just like I said in my post just before your last one. 42 - talk 04:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

You know, there is a help page to explain what is supposed to happen in a redirect (Help:Redirect), so I don't think this page also needs to show it. --JonTheMon 19:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Comes down to making someone go looking when there is a perfectly good example right there. Too much "well this is already listed somewhere else, so let's make someone go looking for information that can be linked to from a reasonable place here." 69.182.220.38 02:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Then you're going to need to explain how redirects work, not just give examples. --JonTheMon 02:14, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Since this is the page about what is recommended for page titles and what isn't, how does having how redirects explained on that page help again? These are examples only. 42 - talk 03:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)