ArenaNet talk:Skill feedback/Monk

filler

This is filler text so breadcrumbs work properly on the skill pages. -- Armond Warblade 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

How do you add Mending to the list, I think 10 energy for the initial cost is excessive considering it is your "upkeep energy" that is paying for the health regen. It wouldn't be bad if it had an initial effect on cast, to make the 10 energy cost worthwhile, or drop the energy required to cast. - Elder Angelus 21:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, found there was already a page for Mending feedback, just nothing in it yet. - Elder Angelus 21:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The Cleanup Sequence has been completed. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent archiving complete. DarkNecrid 20:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Still big problem with monk/ritu class

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Entering RA or BK as a monk means: facing every time the following: Backfire + Visions of Regret + [Cover Hex of Choice] and three out of the following: 2 hammer warriors, 2 critters dealing holy damage with a scythe or 2 Incendiary Arrows with poison interrupters putting -10 degen on your whole team with 2 attacks. Especially scythe attacks deal way too much damage (180 + 300 [incl. deep wound] + (2x90)=180 for a net 640 holy damage in 3 hits taking 2 seconds only). I don't know if you ever play monk in low impact PvP, but there is no monk meta build at the moment where any monk except maybe a leet dozen can outheal or -prot against any single build (this kind of meta has existed all the time before the last few skill changes). Heal ritus have become totally useless because of all that BF + VoR mezzes.

Let me explain that. The healer class is balanced if a skilled monk can survive indefinitly again any single build as long he doesn't have to heal any other team mates. If a monk cannot keep alive himself against at least 1 random foe, he is by definition a wasted team slot. At the moment there is no monk build providing the capability to survive in any 1 vs. 1 situation, because of the constant degen, knockdown, hexover, echantment ripping, unblockable interrupting and life stealing he is facing. Even the most sophisticated builds fail terribly. Playing PvP has generally become a dull slaughterfest. I'm playing now 3 years as a monk in PvP and finally I don't see any more reason to do so... because the odds of winning are way better for my team if I don't monk (or play heal ritu). People chose preferrably builds they know can easily kill even the best healer over some time, he may prot, heal or kite as much as possible. Before this situation arose, a skilled monk was able to handle any single attacker by a combination of weapon switching, shield swapping, kiting, usage of non-spell-skills, shadow stepping, stances and thoughtful prot & heal. Now that's all more or less useless because every second game you face foes that deal ridiculous high spike or DoT damage you can neither prevent nor heal up enough.

Please consider looking into the matter. I understand the monk/ritu skills have to be appropriate for 8v8, too. But please think about either nerfing the insane damage (skills like Zealous Benediction have become useless because if a team mate is already below 50% you usually can no longer cast a 0.75 spell fast enough to save him), give the monks a suitable heal/prot spell that cannot be abused in 8v8 (like heavily buffing e.g. ZB) or - even better - change the enviroment in low PvP areas. Give players an amulet that prevents too much damage at a given time interval, double the health bars or health gain by healing or something else. It would be really nice to get some fun back to non-organized PvP. Please, play yourself for at least an hour RA and see what a boring random Hack'n'Slash it has become. Well, TY for reading all that stuff. I'm really trying to be serious on the matter.

BTW, you may have noticed that other people have mentioned problems with the creeping loss of usefulness of healing classes in 4v4 PvP, too. This has lead IMHO to an unwanted inflation of healing in ALL arenas, like those 3 smiter monk teams (before the nerf) or now the return of infamous 6 warrior IWAY to HA. I think there is a connection between the ever increasing damage gain of offensive skills and adding more and more healing to PvP, because it gets weaker and weaker thus leading to even more defensive play in the end. Make healing a viable choice again and people will free slots for non-healing builds. --82.83.41.134 02:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree one level. Monking is so hard to do nowadays it hurts, And not to down the Meta, but it pretty much sucks being the healer now. Smiting was probably the most fun I ever had with monks in a long time.~Phill Gaston ‎ 03:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

"At the moment there is no monk build providing the capability to survive in any 1 vs. 1 situation" - I monk in RA quite a bit, and it's pretty rare for a single enemy to be able to kill me. And if the damage you could take in a certain amount of time in RA was capped, you'd have no chance whatsoever of getting a kill against a team with two monks. ¬ Wizårdbõÿ777(talk) 04:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, monks can be very infuriating, especially if they happen to bring exactly the right thing to counter you (e.g. you're a warrior and they bring all those /W blocking stances), though that's pretty much luck of the draw. The thing is, though, that there is still a lot of high-powered high-damage stuff which means that monks need powerful Guardians and the like to protect themselves. Personally I would favour minor nerfs of a lot of these powerful damage-dealing skills, and then a tone-down of the blocking chances of a number of skills and things. That would also help healing and ZB in that you would have slightly longer to react when someone gets injured.This comment was posted by 81.107.75.156

Wizardboy, pls show me your magic miracle build you play with in RA which allows you to counter all those VoR/BF mezzes and at the same time all those scythe/hammer bullshit. I'd like to post it on PvXwiki then. Especially how you'd prevent instant removement of HV and/or SB would be of interest. How do you prevent getting killed in 15 seconds by the following bar with an all-purpose monk-build?

Visions of Regret

Backfire

Wastrel's Worry

Overload

Power Spike

Discharge Enchantment

Auspicious Incantation

Resurrection Signet

I'd really like to hear about your counters. And if you tell me to use hex breaker then please explain me how to counter any melee builds (like Magehunters Bash Warriors) w/o stances and Shield Bash. --82.83.40.124 11:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Use holy veil properly, get your ranger/warrior to smash that mesmer's face in cuz they made the idocity of bringing a full anti caster mesmer. -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Properly like in "getting powerspiked while trying to recast it"? BTW, VoR is not entirely anti caster and this is just one of many variants of this build I encounter, just add empathy to the mix. And having other people do something special is not what I call a "counter". --82.83.40.124 13:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Backfire (which is baed, tbh) has a 3 sec cast. Visions has a 2 second one. If your mesmer/warrior/ranger can't protect you, your team is terrible. Oh, and properly, as in, powerspike also sucks balls.

Tbh, that's a terrible bar. Backfire, overload, powerspike, discharge etc are horrible. Get a decent bar, okay? -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Look, that's not my bar, that's the bar I encounter every second game in RA. And about my team: you are suggesting ArenaNet removes RA and AB from the games because there is some randomness in the teams. Please, at least be serious with your answers and don't just make fun of me just because I am an IP. Fact is: you have to play with more or less terrible teams all the time. Fact is, also: this frwaking bar has already removed Heal Ritus entirely from the game (RA/TA/AB). And I have encountered builds in HA based on this bar that kicked 2 or 2 1/2 healer backlines in seconds leading to an immediate wipe of r9+ balanced guild teams. Ty. --82.83.40.124 14:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you want a WHAAMBULANCE? Because going "you don't take me srsly cuz I'm an IP" is total bullshit when there is no indication to that. I suggest stopping trying to gain sympathy that way.

Furthermore, I don't believe for a second that bar can fell any decent player. "thatz just wut I'm seeing" is not good. Its too niche, too weak (lol no cover) and has 4 dead skills.

Finally, the game is not balanced around AB or RA. At this point, I'm going to shun anyone who makes this claim. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:57, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

To the person who said there's no cover, yes there is a cover hex and that would be Wastrel's Worry. The standard bar will usually include two enchantment removals, visions, powerdrain, backfire, empathy, wastrel's worry and ressurection signet. While the duration is only 10 seconds, this is almost 90 armor ignoring damage every time you cast a spell OR attack skill. When I play monk, I usually try to cover my holy veil with reversal of fortune, or guardian because these guys carry ample enchantment removals anyways. The damage and the fact that the hex is also AOE is a pain in the ass; might I add almost 220 armor ignoring damage everytime someone casts a spell. If you cast three times with these two hexes up, you're screwed. The only way to counter the large packets of damage once they are up on you is to either Protective Spirit yourself or Spirit Bond. It should help you deal with these hexes...(somewhat).

For the restoration rit however, this is a VERY difficult build to deal with because ritualists simply have no way of protecting themselves from high packets of damage such as this. The only thing I can say to help recommend the resto ritualists still out there is to invest in bringing holy veil or purge signet somewhere on your skill bar. (If you bring purge signet, make sure you switch to a negative weapon set and use offering of spirit after to gain your lost energy).--Lancy1214 18:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Nuklear, you don't need to believe. But if you haven't encountered this type of build you are talking about something you didn't experience and this is - surprisingly - complete bullshit. Go monk yourself in RA for 2 hours and tell me. We might even sync just for the sake of showing me what a decent player you are. If you agree I'll mail you my IGN. This discussion is not about your vague believals, but about the current factual situation. Please don't do theorycrafting without having real-life experience with this. --82.83.40.124 18:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a very simple counter to the build you posted. Precast Holy Veil when you first see the mesmer, and watch him as well as you can. When you see him cast Visions of Regret, pinch out a few heals, and wait for him to begin casting backfire. The lengthened window from Holy Veil being cast means you can drop VoR and have a new veil up to remove Backfire. This will give you a window of twenty seconds to stomp the mesmer before he can recast his "deadly spells". 74.129.68.132 02:18, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to discuss this any further but you forget that you are constantly spammed with wastrel's worry all the time. That's a hex, too. I know how to counter covered hexes, but you cannot afford to stop casting because you'll get 140 armor ignoring damage every 3 seconds. And any veil fun won't get you anywhere until it has a recast time of 6. It will be ench-removed anyway after the second hex round. There really is no counter except DH. --82.83.53.47 23:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Whoever wrote ^.

Also add into the equation there a ranger spamming interrupts on you, and a sin ganking you.

Dance puppet, dance. =)

What if you have an ineptitude mesmer? We could play the what-if game for years, the point being that a good monk can beat that bad mesmer. 74.129.68.132 02:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I tl;dr'ed at "go to RA and see how painful this is". Find someone who cares about balance in RA, tell me who that person is, and then ask where the fuck is the SA, ZB and Return nerfs are.

Fuck RA. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Well IMO a monk being able to stand his ground against EVERYTHING would be OP and then the game wouldn't be fun at all. RA has always been like that, everything is monkhate, even before VoR mesners and Wail necros (Which I just lost to both on the same team gg) there were SA sins and BHA shadow step rangers. Half the people there are running builds to take healers down, and thats about it. About your build issue, there isn't much you can do about it, I'll be honest. Anyone who simply says pre-veil knows what you SHOULD do but it DOES NOT WORK against a half decent mesmer. Assuming they don't wait for your cover to get off, you can remove the first hex, or two if you have hex breaker, but then they interrupt the veil after that or just drain it while they stack things on you and your team. 1v1 you can stand there but in RA you have 3 other people getting mauled while you are unable to cast and no midline or support in freakin RA is going to care or even be good enough half the time to shut down whats hurting the monk if it's not hurting them. All I can say is practice and have faith, get a HCT/RT for all spells mod if needed and hope your team finishes them before you get outpressured. Sure it doesn't sound nice by hey it's RA, getting rolled or rolling is everyones intent. Personally I think monks are fine, some skills do seem over effect vs them and need to be nerfed but I also promote buffing more offensive strategic skills like concussion shot to help end matches faster until people learn to cancel and preprot and such. 74.229.66.241 16:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Why do monks face a double standard?

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Izzy, why are monks the only class that get the shaft when it comes to their spells only working on certain people. It really is not balanced at all if you think about it! Really its not fair to restrict spells to other ally and not allow them to be used on yourself. How would you like it if you were playing warrior and half of your skills could only be used against other melee characters? Or what if you were playing mesmer and some of your best spells couldnt be used against monks or necros. This is the double standard that we face! Seriously can we take this restriction away and make it fair and balanced for all classe including monks? Or at least try it for a month and see what happens? Whats everyones comments / ideas about this? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

It's kinda hard to compare "can't target yourself" with "can't target certain foes"; by that logic, should Shockwave hit you as well? Should it hit your teammates? Should stances be targetable (I.E., "I'm using Defensive Stance on Elementalist Teammate!")? Mechanically, it just makes sense that there are some things you shouldn't be able to target. In the case of the rather few defensive skills that can only be used on an ally, it allows the skills to be that much better. If you could use "Make Haste!" on yourself, it would need to be a much shorter duration to be balanced. As it was with Word of Healing (back when it couldn't self-target), it allowed the skill to heal for an ungodly amount of health, with the balancing factor of allowing opponents to at least manage some damage on one character (the Monk). (Yes, I am saying WoH is still a little overpowered as it is, but that's a different topic.)

I personally like having some skills be extra-powerful to make up for a targeting restriction. If you could use Imbue Health on yourself, it would be overpowered, probably. It's not hard to fire it off for a max-300hp heal as it recharges, which is awfully powerful for the cost, especially being on a non-healing character. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 03:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Also worth mentioning, skill balance discussion should go here, if you're actually talking about balance, and not just pointing out stuff you dislike. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 03:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok well stances of course should not be used on other allys, its a stance not a spell. I'm talking about mostly spells here. And of course shockwave shouldnt hurt yourself or teammates, thats like saying a warrior should be able to pk his teammates if he doesnt like them. I fail to see how imbue health would be overpowered, if your at half health, and want to cast it on yourself to heal, that would be about a 150 pt heal for 10 energy. Doesnt seem over powered to me. Even if shouts were changed also I dont see how it could be overpowered or unbalanced either. Your example of "Make haste" is somthing that ends on attack, so I wouldnt think a paragon would want to cast it on himself unless he just wants to kite away.

I would just like to point out that if make haste could be used on self.... Healers and runners could just put 5 into Command and have +33% run speed on themselves whenever they wanted... Its things like this which is why some things can only be used on other allys --Mashav 05:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

And this would be differnt from dash how? Besides that dash comes on assassin which is over all much better for casters then paragon and also costs no attribute points. Also couldnt hurt giving a pretty much useless secondary (paragon) at least one playable skill. Ok maybe 2 if you count Song of Con for HA.

I suspect OP is talking about the spotlesses. The anti-condition one (I can never keep them straight) is weak simply because Restore Condition exists. The anti-hex one should probably be target anyone, yeah, but it won't be because Izzy still thinks hexes are underpowered. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 06:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Since when is para secondary useless? Make Haste and Song of Concentration have been thrown on secondary necros, warriors, and eles in HA since Nightfall was released. (Probably more, too. All this would do would be to give monks the ability to MH themselves, reducing vent clutter.) -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 06:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Monk paragons in HA? I dont think you'll ever see this as long as channeling exisits. But thats getting off topic. Would like to hear more comments about the whole other ally requirements if possible.

This has digressed into a conversation among users, not a conversation with Izzy, if you wish to continue it, please take it to one of your talk pages, or move it to a feedback page, as per the notice at the top of this page. Thanks! -- Wyn 06:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Getting back on topic a bit, I'd just like to point that while it's true what a previous poster said about foe-targetting skills not really being comparable to ally-targetting ones, the OP should remember that there are a lot of skills which are in fact only useable (or at least only useful) on certain foes - for example, when would you Power Spike a warrior? Are Empathy or Insidious Parasite any good on touchers? And when will Shame get put on pretty much anyone other than a healer? All of these sorts of skills are very rarely useable on certain foes, so I don't think monks are getting the short straw (there are very few healing skills which say things like "Target ally is healed for X health whenever that ally uses an adrenaline skill", for example).

Yes thats true, but it still doesnt restrict you from casting these spells on whomever you want. If you could only cast empathy on someone attacking, then maybe, or if you could only cast shame on someone with a healing spell equiped, then ok. But the fact remains that gw doesnt restrict whom you can cast these spells on, hence the double standard. Your example of "why would you cast xxx spell on xxx person" if it doesnt really do anything is the same as why would you cast mend conditon on someone without a condition? Sure you could, but it wouldnt really do anything. So this example of certain spells not havings the biggest effect on certain people remain constant accross all classes, even monks. They obey the same standard as everyone else, yet the fact remains that they face a double standard as far as who "they can cast spells on". And the fact that you can cast shame on a warrior, or cast empathy on a toucher, still do as they are intended. If the toucher wands or attacks, they take dmg, just as inteneded. If the wammo wants to use mend touch, then that spell will still fail just as if casted on a monk. And of course if u want to cover your empathy on a warrior, sure it wouldnt be the best choice, but you could always cast shame as a cover hex. Or vice versa using empathy to cover shame on a monk.

The reason you can't cast everything on yourself is because of balance. I see nothing wrong with being able to shame a warrior - not that pretty much anyone would, if they're using any sort of a brain. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 20:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The poster is half right. Monks have many skills that they cannot target themselves with for a good reason. This is a team based game, and it only makes sense that the fewer things you can do for yourself, the more you rely on your teammates, and the more skill goes into playing with other people. Monks are one of the most balanced classes right now, simply because of the fact that you need two of them to work together in order to be effective.

The original poster sees the difference between monks and new professions. All the new professions can target themselves with most of their really good utility skills, while monks cannot. If you haven't guessed by now, this is izzy's fault. I'm not gonna rant about it because I'm sure everyone has a general idea of what I'd say. ~Shard 21:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Everyone says this is made because of balance. How in the world is it balanced if it only affects 1/10 of the classes. Do rits have any spells that cannot target themsleves? The answer is No. Do any of the other classes? No! Only one other spell in the entire game is imbue health. Which I would be happy to see changed also. The other thing that was brought up was how it is a team based game, and you should rely on your teammates. I dont disagree with that, However saying the only way to be successful is to have 2 monks is wrong in everyway. What if it was like that for every class? You could never take just 1 of a specific class. If you want just 1 ranger, too bad, his skills wont work right unless you have two rangers. Same with mesmers, eles, or wars, or rits or any of the other 9 classes. What if you needed 2 warriors to complete 1 knockdown? Sure it would follow the above quote of "This is a team based game, and it only makes sense that the fewer things you can do for yourself, the more you rely on your teammates, and the more skill goes into playing with other people". However this is not the case. No other class requires another duplicate of themselves in order to use their skill correctly. Again this just proves how they face a double standard then any other class.

Yes, make Imbue Health self-targeting, idiot. What is the point of healing yourself 40% of your current health? If you are healing yourself, that means your health is low, and thus 40% of your health isn't going to do much.Crimmastermind 23:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well flamming for no reason is not really a good way to continue this discussion, so I'll just ignore it, but to answer your question I already addressed imbue health a few paragraphs above. Would be happy to discuss and hear more opions about the topic without flamming.

Go read up on what balance is before you go around claiming to know about it. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 23:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Please do not start any personal attacks Armond, it really is not necesary. To answer your question, that I should read up on balance, well it is defined as "equality of distribution" Basically if you think of a scale, what you put on one side must be equal to the other, in order to balance. There fore, what you do to one class in the game you should also require from other classes in the game in order to "balance". Which is currently not the case as I have mentioned above.

You have avoided the part of the subject that others have tried pointing out: There are support skills in the game that are quite powerful in some ways and they buy this power at the expense of some handicap. Spirit Light is handicapped with self-sacrifice; Signet of Synergy has a long recharge, target other ally clause and the self-heal blocked by enchantments; Blood is Power and Blood Bond are both "target other ally" etc. Firstly, other-ally skills are not restricted to Monks only - They makes appearances in a number of support skills for a range of professions. Secondly, without some handicap to hold them in check a number of skills would make for invincible support characters and would therefore need serious nerfing to hold them in check, but we don't have to look far to see that we already have skills filling those roles. In other words, why have two Orisons when we can have Heal Other and Orison, offering more variety for different situations? -- WarBlade 23:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that besides the main issues... Isn't this kind of what monks are supposed to do in regards to the story? To put others before themselves? Just thought I'd bring this up. --Mashav 23:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well spirit light isnt other ally, Signet of Synergy is, but I think if it was changed to be able to use it on yourself would not unbalance it, it just would negate the fact u could of healed someone else also if you wanted to. Blood is Power is other ally, which I did forget about. But I dont see this being unbalanced if it could be used on any ally. Also the point that monks are supposed to put others before themselves still holds very well I belive. Monks give up almost all offensive abilities in order to keep others alive. Sure some classes have self heals, but do any Wa/Ra/Me/Ne/As/Ele heal anyone else? No, and thats fine. Monks main purpose is putting others before their own damage dealing, and keeping the team alive. This still would not change.

Then you really don't know the first thing about balancing GW. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 23:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Armond, now your just trolling. If you have something useful to contribute please do, other wise your just repeating yourself without offering anything new. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

No, I'm not. Signet of Synergy would be probably the best split heal in the game if it could self target - you'd see rangers going /P and putting five or six points in motivation for offensive splits. You simply don't understand that the "cannot self target" clause is a balancing mechanic, just as health sacrifice and recharge are. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 00:06, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

and energy... and cast time... and elite status... The point we're trying to make to you is that its not just about the professions. Its about the skills themselves. If Healing Whisper could self target it would be good... if it was combined with Healer's Boon it would be very powerful. Some combination's would just be too powerful or would obsolete other skills. --Mashav 00:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The trolls on this site are amazing — Skakid 00:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Again I will mention I am mainly talking about spells here. However I dont belive signet of synergy would be overpowered. Healing signet heals for more and has less then half the recharge. Also healing whisper would be ok, but definitly not overpowered. It has half spell casting range and 1 second cast. Compared to patient spirit which is 1/4 cast, regular casting range, and heals for more, and can already be used on any ally. I understand it was meant as a balancing mechanic. Which is why I made this thread. I'm looking for exactly what would be unbalanced if we could get rid of the other ally requirement. Definitely some good points have been brought up. Some that I did not think about. However so far, I still havent seen anything that would become to unbalanced. If anyting, it would open up some new skills that currently getting no play what so ever. I.E. signet of synery, healing whisper. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

If your talking about spotless mind, I completely disagree, but spotless soul yes. Spotless mind is pretty damn powerful, it strips 3 hexes with 14 heal prayers. Spotless soul wouldn't hurt if it was target self. Signet is wouldn't imba if it was target self, healing whisper since it is half ranged it wouldn't hurt. prokiller88 03:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Signet would be the single best split heal ever. There's a reason these things aren't target anyone; use your brains! -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 03:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

OP your arguement of target other ally skills being changed to target ally naturally leads to another arguement --> Pure self targeting skills should be changed to target ally. The skills having these mechanics exist for a reason and that is in fact what people have been trying to tell you. It is balance. Imagine an RC monk being able to self target, do you even realize how much that condenses a skill bar. Think about a monk being able to use Blessed Signet on target ally. The worst would be Foul Feast being able to be cast on yourself, could you imagine necromancers with INFINITE HEALTH AND INFINITE ENERGT! Oh wait...

If you can't see that let me point out the other side of self targeting skills being able to target any ally. This example is very simple. Contemplation of Purity on target ally + Patient Spirit or being able to cast Healer's Boon on target ally. Think about the conjures and spirit's strength being able to be cast on a warrior from outside sources.

Both of these limitations are in fact the same, the only difference is the point of view. It sounds to me like you are just trying to help the monk class out, but really these changes would not help anything. In any case I don't think this game needs to be obliterated by changing those mechanics, but hey that's just my stance.~>Sins WDB 04:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok @ Armond again. I will say for the 3rd time I am talking about spells,(might wanna read b4 you post). But if it was changed... Signet of synergy would heal you for 88 health with 12 invested in motivation. Thats ALOT of attribute points for an 88 pt heal. I hardly call that "the single best split heal ever". @ Sins: What your comparing is like what someone mentioned earlier about stances. Of course you shouldnt be able to use a stance on someone else, same goes for blessed sig, contemplation of purity, conjures, and spirits strengths. Your confusing something else with what I'm talking about, so briefly I'll explain it again. I'm asking what the problem would be about channging the spells that can only be used on other ally's to be able to be used on the target ally also. And Yes, I did forget about foul feast, it probably wouldnt make sense to use it on yourself and have unlimited health and energy, but in the description it says "Transfers all conditions from target ally to yourself. You gain 0...36...45 Health and 0...2...3 Energy for each condition transferred". So really your not transfering any conditons if you use it on yourself, (since they are already on you) so it wouldnt give any health or energy. (or shouldnt)

You would think that about foul feast, but I am guessing at the programming, which is probably along the lines of the skill removes conditions first then reapplies them to the caster. In any case there are still many issues with other skills, such as life bond, which would result in damage from the party being 1/4 -whatever *2 on the monk and just being able to put it on yourself also half incoming damage for the monk. Same issue for Life barrier. Then you would have empathic removal issues with self targeting and removing 2 hexes 2 conditions healing for 100 +DF for the casting monk. Then there's healing seed, which would just be stupid when combined with life bond. If you have issues with certain skills take it up with the skills individually, but don't just suggest changing an entire balancing limit. Those are only effects that could hit PvP btw, you have to think about how that would effect farming as well.~>Sins WDB 04:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

You touch spells, you touch everything. Targetting is such a basic concept that it applies equally to every skill ever.

Your math is off. Leave yourself unenchanted (you are on a split, after all) and a 0-spec sig synergy would heal you for 80 health.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 05:01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldnt really see a problem with life bond or life barrier. If you did put it on yourself, sure you wouldnt take much damage. But it would have the same problems and counters that a normal 55 monk build has, or a 600 build. It would be very suseptible to enchantment stripping, and would also have energy management problems. As far as healing seed goes, it wouldnt be much differnt from healing hands, except since its not elite, its a 2 second cast instead of 1/4 second, plus its 10 energy instead of 5. Still seems balanced to me. Empahtic removal would probably be very strong. Might be able to reword it so it removes 1 hex 1 condtion from yourself, and if you cast it on someone else it also removes one of each from them also. Which is the way it was intended. Same thing would go for signet of synergy. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

You really don't know how to balance the game. I'm gonna save myself the headache and not pay attention to you anymore. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 05:08, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I will say again to you Armond, flamming and trolling is not really necessary. Or repeating the same thing over and over without offering anything new. I'm sorry if your getting a headache from reading this, but honestly no one is forcing you. Your doing it to yourself. Everyone else please feel free to post your opinions / suggestions about this idea. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

I'm trying to get you to understand... those were just examples that i touched on, you still would have to deal with blood ritual, blood is power, blood bond, arcane mimicry, ghostly weapon. I can go on and on. This limit is in place for good reason. ~>Sins WDB 05:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

There was a discussion up above already about blood ritual/ blood is power. It still wouldnt be unbalanced if they were changed to ally. As far as arcane mimicry, I dont think it would be imbalanced either. 15 energy, 2 second cast, 60 recharge, just to copy your own elite for 20 seconds. Thats really an expensive and easily interuptable skill to put on a monk bar. I dont see a problem with ghostly weapon either. If you wanted to bring it on a melee class and use it on your self seems perfectly ok with me. It might actually get some play that way. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

You must see the problem with having 3 of the same elite for a period of time then. Arcane echo and arcane mimicry. Or you could just upkeep 2 of any elite spell that way, I think you see the problem with that. Imagine 1 individual being able to use Wail of Doom over and over with no down time, since it's now 1 energy. Do you see the issue now with that? Too many unfair results of a change like you are suggesting. Like I said address the skills you think should be changed individually.~>Sins WDB 05:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll take this opportunity to point out that monks have dominated both PvP and PvE since release. -- Gordon Ecker 05:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Really it wouldnt change much of anything. Any elite can pretty much be copied and kept up already by just arcane echo. The difference is that arcane echo has a recharge of 20 seconds, while arcane mimicry has a recharge of 60 seconds. The added recharge time could account for the fact it could be used to copy yourselfs, or you allys elite. Hence the extra recharge time. Also both these skills are very expensive, 15 energy, and have 2 second cast time. Which make them very easily interuptable, and also suspectible to enchantment strip if they do go through. Not to mention the energy problems you will most likely have. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

I am not understanding your logic. How is it okay, in your opinion, to make this change that will result in breaking so many skills? You can't just justify things through "X second cast time" or "Y recharge" or "Z energy". These are broken concepts and you are telling people that it is okay to allow for a self life-bond or a bar that has 2 elites on it permanently or a bar that would have wail of doom on it 3 times. So many game concepts can become even more broken. A range with incendiary arrows + arcane mimicry would have a field day, because for 20 seconds they are spamming 11 degen non-stop since they have the skill on their bar twice. Please enlighten me on your logic, because I am failing to see the overall good that will come out of this. Yes healing spells would be better and borderline OP, yes RC would be OP, but what is the good you are seeing?~>Sins WDB 05:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Borderline? Just infuse yourself. --Ezekial Riddle 06:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont see how it will break so many skills like you say it will. In fact I still dont see how any skills will be broken. The self bonding monk would still have all the same problems it already has when using bonds on anyone, like I mentioned above. Having three WoD would be over kill since it already can be kept up with just two copies as it is now. Also the ranger with arcane mimicry would face the same draw backs as anyone else. The high energy cost, 60 second recharge, plus getting a 2 second cast off is anything but easy. Also incendiary arrows is already a 5 second recharge so he can basically spam it non stop as it is now, without even needing arcane mimicry. As for RC, I dont see it being overpowered if it were changed. Taking up a monks elite spot for conditions should be strong enough to be used on yourself. If you think it would change people from brining a secondary conditon removal as it is now, I dont believe it would. It of course would be everyones choice. But if RC gets shut down, then smart teams would always have a backup conditon removal as they currently do. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

I don't think you're realizing that just because it has a counter doesn't mean it's balanced. Sure, there are counters to self-targeting spells (well...any spell for that matter). It doesn't mean it is instant balanced. Having drawbacks also doesn't instant balance a skill, as seen with WoD. --Riddle 06:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, lets just say that self-targeting Life Bond would pretty much rule. Do you know why Stoneflesh Aura is used so much in farming? Because it reduces most of the damage you take to 0. This combo is only not used in PvP because that requires too much speccing into elementalist attributes (air+earth magics to maintain). Imagine that you suddenly got a skill that is the same as stoneflesh aura in protection prayers. Which idiot wouldn't want to bring it? Evisecrate, no problem, I only take a measly 60 dmg. I can orison it off. Spikes, no problem, I take 150 less damage. See the problem? It would be better than stoneflesh because of several reasons: You can target others as well. It is completely maintainable (no need to bring two skills to maintain it). You don't need to recast it unless it gets stripped (the upkeep is cheaper than constantly reapplying it). No need to spec into useless attributes (why does a monk need air or earth magic skills?). Wow, you just made farming even easier, and broken PvP as well. Good job.Crimmastermind 06:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand what you are saying. You understand that monks get the effect because of balance, but you don't understand why other professions do not? I think that answer can be devided in a few parts. First of all, it is to make professions different. If every healing skill worked the same way more or less, then it would lead to dullness. More importantly I guess, is that the monk is the most defensive class of the game. You don't really need to adjust your build that much to become unbeatable. The third part ties in with the second one: they COULD change it, but it would upset the balance they have now. If they'd remove it now, they would introduce an additional balance issue, and they have their hands full already. It is certainly easier to avoid monks being indestructible when they cannot target themselves with half of their spells. If they were to change it, then they would need to tone down the power of the spells as well, reducing the overall effectiveness of the monk and instead making the monk itself harder to kill. That is the final part of my answer: everything needs a weakness. When it comes to healing monks, that is thier big weakness, and it is not a big weakness: 2 monks can keep a party of 8 people alive most of the time and that is pretty powerful. The rest of the party needs 6 people to kill 8. That makes a monk 3 times as powerful as any other class. 145.94.74.23 05:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

N.B. That last sentence isn't meant to be taken literally.

Obvious troll is obvious?--118.90.69.63 15:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what did you mean by that? That N.B. was written by myself. 145.94.74.23 07:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It was mostly directed towards 98.215.50.53 up there. If that was you under a dynamic ip then figure it out.--118.90.69.63 21:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Lets please try to stay on topic. As mentioned for the 3rd time, trolling, flamming, or repeating yourself over and over about stuff off-topic is not needed. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:98.215.50.53 (talk).

The only problem I see with monks is that hex removals are too weak, otherwise they are balanced.~>Sins WDB 03:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I understand the comment now, and no, that's not me under another IP. It's hard to figure who's talking to whom in these discussions. 145.94.74.23 14:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hex removal IS addressed by Izzy

71.229.253.172 reverted my moving of the hex removal skills to "addressed by Izzy". (With the useless edit summary of "he's wrong", too) If anyone cares to check, on 4/6 of the pages I moved, Izzy has answered with something along the lines of "I don't want to change hex removal at the moment". How can that not be "addressed by Izzy"? And if you meant "Izzy is wrong" rather than "134... is wrong", then go to the place set up for it and try to convince Izzy there, don't write a "needs buff because hexes are overpowered" page for every single hex removal spell. That's not helpful, you won't pressure or trick Izzy into buffing them that way, and it just clutters everything up. 134.130.4.46 08:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If designers and balancers were infallible, games wouldn't need balance updates. IMO the addressed issues section is for entries which have been directly addressed by Izzy after they were posted and entries which may be outdated due to an update. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 10:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And again, how is Izzy stating "I think it's fine and am not going to change it" not "directly addressed by Izzy"? It may not the way you want it addressed, but this is supposed to be a place where we can post suggestions to help him. Not one to flaunt great ideas we know he is not going to implement. 134.130.4.46 02:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

We're using different definitions of 'addressed'. You're using the one that means he talked about it. We're using the one that means he fixed it. The 'Addressed' section is for problems that have been fixed. Hexes and hex removals have not been fixed, therefore hex removal has not been addressed. --76.25.197.215 02:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC) (71.229.253.172)

A hex stack has 4-5 hexes and most of them (especially the top ones) have a 2-5 second recharge. The only viable hex removal skills remove 1 hex and take 12 seconds to recharge. That's a poorly designed mechanic. Izzy saying he doesn't care doesn't address the issue. -Auron 02:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he says he thinks it's fine, he does not admit it's broken but he cba to fix it. That's a huge difference. I personally also think he's wrong, but spamming these pages with a dozen iterations of "hex removal is too weak and needs a buff" does only accomplish one thing: make them less useful as a way to help balance the game and more likely to be ignored by Izzy altogether. There's a reason these pages are in the ArenaNet namespace. Go to your userspace or guru or wherever if you don't want to work with Izzy. 134.130.4.46 03:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

With your terrible logic, we are not allowed to post suggestions unless it is what Izzy wants? Then kindly delete this section. Posting only what Arenanet wants defeats the purpose of asking for feedback. Broken hexes are still broken, it certainly comes under the definition of NOT addressed. Warning: There has been a logic failure. Pika Fan 04:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying you should only post what anet wants. I'm saying you should post constructive feedback and make these pages useful by trying to convince Izzy hexes need better counters at the apropriate place and stop littering everything else with "hex removal skill x needs a buff because hexes are broken" and "hex skill y needs a nerf because hexes are broken". Can't you see no good will ever come of these unless and until Izzy agrees hexes need fixing? And these moronic "buff veil" suggestion pages are not going to make him. Anyway, since I appear to be clearly in the minority here, I'm gonna leave you do as you like and go away thinking "there's mostly idiots on these suggestion pages". Don't be surprised if Izzy does the same. (There is another theory which states that this has already happened.) 134.130.4.46 08:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Whether it's balanced or not, I think the issue is: what is "addressed"? As Izzy disagrees, repeatedly putting it up might sound like a broken record. However, taking them down might just encourage people to keep putting it back up. And this would likely propagate to other suggestions: is addressed answered, or changed/irrelevant? --JonTheMon 05:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nerf monks (or buff everything else)

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Currently like 95% of hero battle players run two monks (yes, it's two monks in four men team). Also, most of the gvgers run three monks (yes, three monks in eight man team). Same goes to other forms of PvP also, monks, monks and monks. There are ten professions and one is used over all others, monk. Please nerf monk to the bottom so the other professions see the daylight too and there is no one profession over others. Or, buff everything else. 88.85.134.227 21:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd give it a 6/10 on the Troll scale. Your flawed arguments are convincing but there is still lots of room for improvement. 99.235.238.99 00:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree bad troll is bad. If not a troll, terrible arguement Divine 13:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol, nice trolling indeed. Sure you'll see more and more monks, because everything is so overpowered and monks (and healing in general) didn't get anything back during the balancing updates. Izzy's answer to this is every time the same: increase damage output even more. Well, we'll we see 4, 5 and 5 monks in PvP teams if he continues to do so (as a reaction many massive overhealing gimmick builds are developed like Smiteways or Lichway or Rspike or rituspike etc.). He doesn't understand people will reduce the number of healing skills in a team only if strong healing skills are available. The stronger the healers, the less percentage of healing will be dedicated to this task. In many of the current builds more than 40% of all skills are healing skills. And after the last update this will increase by a lot of hex removal skills soon. --82.82.190.92 13:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

So you agree with the problem but you don't want to fix it? Imo nerf monks to the bottom for a week and see what happens. 88.85.134.227 14:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

lolurterrible. Look at endurance warriors, 100+ damage with almost every hit is more or less what WoH monks can (barely) handle. And that's just endurance warriors, you haven't seen hexway smiteway and all kinds of gimmicks run in PvP. Damage > healing already. Obs more, what you have said only shows your ignorance.Pika Fan 15:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I can predict what happens. Everyone runs full damage and tries to kill the opposing team before they kill you. Spikes will be non-existant. In HA, you will see a lot of EoE bombs, balance can not be run anymore. And if you need healing anyway, N/Rt and Rt will take over. However, monks are the only profession that can effectively protect. Dragnmn talk cont 15:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the problem, but there is no need to look what happes when healing gets nerfed or damage gets increased - we already have that situation. More and more healing is included in teams. We alread know what happens if monks get buffed or damage nerfed, we had that situation a long time ago. Less healing is included in teams in favor of more sophisticated team builds. The more monks you need to defend against overpowered damage the duller gameplay gets because everything is about outhealing for longer periods than the enemy team. This closes the space for strategy and tactics. --82.82.190.92 15:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and to add a comment to Dragnmn: I second that opinion. Go play RA where this situation already persists for some time. Since there is no guarantee to get a healer, all the players do is just mindless hack and slay, the only strategy for 95% of the builds is doing bigger damage in a shorter amount of time than the enemy. Booooring. --82.82.190.92 15:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

BTW, This (http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_IV_Spike) is what you get without monks: 33 of 64 skills are healing/protection skills, that's more than 50%. 6 "attack" skills only, another 6 "attack" skills that usually are never used. Great balance. --82.83.41.4 02:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Currently 98% of HB teams run two monks, 1% runs three and 1% run four. Now is this balance? Nope, it's not. Please, completely, totally nerf monks. WoH to heal like 15 + conditional 15, orison of healing heal 5, nerf all forms of hex removal, make them not removable, remove one condition at time max. Monk armor buffs give max +2 armor. This has been going around too long, time to quit this stupid monk meta. 88.85.132.147 23:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol... if you remove monks everyone would run heal ritus then. If you remove ritus, too, everyone would run healing dervs. If you remove dervs, everyone would run healing paras. If you remove paras, people will use pure defense builds like earth mantra eles or defy pain endurance warriors... I think you are terribly confused about how this game works. HB is about capping, not about killing. Go play Unreal Deathmatch or go sniping in Counterstrike if you want no healing, this is a (mmo)RPG. --82.83.35.83 05:19, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you missed some sarcasm there 82.83~>Sins WDB 06:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is meant as sarcasm. Look at the entry below. --82.83.37.68 01:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Monks

→ moved from ArenaNet talk:Miscellaneous bugs

Currently 98% of HB teams run two monks, 1% runs three and 1% run four. Now is this balance? Nope, it's not. Please, completely, totally nerf monks. WoH to heal like 15 + conditional 15, orison of healing heal 5, nerf all forms of hex removal, make them not removable, remove one condition at time max. Monk armor buffs give max +2 armor. This has been going around too long, time to quit this stupid monk meta. 88.85.132.147 23:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

How is this a bug? This isn't the place for balance suggestions, see ArenaNet:Skill feedback. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 10:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this to the appropriate talk page. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 10:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Word of Healing

Who deleted the suggestions and discussions for Word of Healing?? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:84.57.247.76 (talk).

If you check the page, it'll show the deletion summary. It was tagged for over a week and the deletion was uncontested. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

And? This is the skill feedback site! Unless the skill has been fixed it has to stay, so that people can see what is wrong with it. How many skill feedback would have to be delete if some random guy just tags it for deletion? If it is fixed move to "Issues addressed", if not leave it there. This bullshit gives the impression that the skill is fine, which it isn't. Do users have to check regularly to stop some idiot from removing their suggestions?? BTW what was the reason for tagging it for deletion the "deletion summary" doesn't say anything about that?? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:84.57.247.76 (talk).

No skill feedback pages would have to be deleted if some random guy tags them for deletion. The deletion policy allows sysops to delete pages after three days if the deletion proposal is uncontested or supported by consensus, but there is no obligation to delete it. If no one opposes the deletion and a sysop does delete a page, undeletion can be proposed on the admin noticeboard. For the record, the the first deletion tag was added by NuclearVII, with a rationale of "Issue does not exist.", the second deletion tag was added by 72.71.225.113, with a rationale of "Issue does not exist, there are plenty of counters to this if you actually bother to bring a necro or mesmer, healing prayers needs more viable elites, not less. This is not overpowered and does not need a nerf". -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I tagged that over a month ago, and it was a stupid suggestion. Enjoy your deletion. ---- NUKLEAR IIV 08:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Life Sheath vs Assassine newcommer

Greetings from germany. I would like to inform you that the Quest Disenchantment Course (Assassine) is very difficult to master. You only have the skill Expunge Enchantments to drain Life Sheath. I Think you can see the problem. For a newcommer Assassine without special skills or weapons, the quest is to difficult.

Proposal for solution: Give Brother Pe Wan a couple of new skills and remove his elite spell.

Discussion on a german board --Maria Murtor 23:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)