Feedback talk:Game updates/20091210

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NEW PATCH, just got a new patch today, 12-12, and we still dont have notes from last one. ~Nelson (n122333) 19px

lol I tried that once and the page was deleted. Previously Unsigned 03:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Ya that happened to me too once >.>. --Dominator Matrix 03:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
SF is the same, so meh... 03:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
So is shattering assault. User Ryuu R.jpg Ryuu - talk 03:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there really a reason why developers can't have patch notes ready before releasing a new build? This is more communication? Yeah right...Dealaka 03:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That question has been asked many times to Anet -- with the answer of translations. --Dominator Matrix 03:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
seems like they're doing this a lot this month, i want my patch notes dammit :( 03:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

before & after[edit]

Is there somewhere that lists a before and after? So that I could compare the changes on skills that I don't use much? Adeira Tasharo 03:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, but that would be nice. I just check my current skills, looks like no Mesmer changes (*SIGH*). Previously Unsigned 03:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
The history of each page. It's not convenient, but we don't have a very good documentation of skill histories yet. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 03:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

More than likely it's just basic updates to get ready for the christmas event coming up. As far as I've compaired skills before the event I have seen no changes.Sithis 04:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:TitusFFX (talk).

are they even comeing out, or are they going to make us hunt them? ~Nelson (n122333) 19px

Most likely.....[edit]

Wintersday junk....--Norrukki User Norrukki SigIcon.png 04:04, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

or another bug fix, but the update was pretty big compare to the last.......10-12 updates. so maybe there 2.--BobbyT User Talk: BobbyT 04:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

just btw guys, SF isnt nerfed --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Sigh no SF nerf.. --Leet Tankur 04:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


Expertise no longer affects PvE trap skills, stop removing this. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:TealDawn (talk).

HAMMER TIME 04:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Wtf are you on about, no changes were made to expertise, just read the ingame description of it =\--TahiriVeila 04:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I dont think it ever did effect pve only skills--Lord Randy 04:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No they did not, expertise only effect ranger skills, attack/touch/ritual skills, the two pve traps have never been effect by this skill --BobbyT User Talk: BobbyT 04:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


Since there were so many fools vandalizing the page, I have protected it for 24 hrs. So, if we don't hear from ArenaNet what the update was, you all have a day to try to figure it out in game. -- Wyn User Wynthyst sig icon2.png talk 04:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation: You're all morons, stop vandalizing the damn update page. If ArenaNet doesn't do their job and tell us what the hell they changed, you have a day to do it for them instead. User Ryuu R.jpg Ryuu - talk 04:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
only shard is allowed to do translations. --adrin User Adrin mysig.jpg 04:49, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I asked him in advance on MSN. User Ryuu R.jpg Ryuu - talk 04:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
You did not. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 04:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
You were supposed to cover for me. -_- User Ryuu R.jpg Ryuu - talk 04:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry it'll be posted soon enough.Sithis 04:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The update happened and should be noted accordingly. Also state there weren't any info given. Isn't that simple? Markus ClouserUser Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 17:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Afaik, we don't do that here. If nothing is provided and we can't figure it out, then we just don't have notes about it. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Most likely[edit]

A fix for Rollo Lowlo. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 04:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Pro team you have set up for tombs there, pal--TahiriVeila 04:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
We weren't HAing, we were bug hunting. Also, I have more rank than every member of your guild combined. Thanks for having a clue. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 04:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
kk pal--TahiriVeila 05:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
What did you plan on doing after trying to insult Shard, Tahiri? -/-lol wireframe henchmen-/- Discuss 05:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Do your homework Shard. I know Tahiri is absolutely fucking terrible and that his guild carries him, but in order to carry someone so terrible, they have to be pretty good, no? Misery 09:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I lol'd --Frosty User Frosty Frostcharge sig.jpg 12:02, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Ah, touche. Love the wireframe man too :-). Widowmaker 11:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
*chants* fight fight fight! User:n122333

That minimap is empty. So not a lot of people doing that thing, eh?--ShadowFog 13:35, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That is the Zaishen battle at the start of Heroes Ascent. You can see Shard's team as the cluster of blue dots around him and on the far left of the minimap you can see the first Zaishen as a little red dot. They were testing things, obviously just in the first battle which is not against real players, hence the henchmen and incomplete skill bar. Pleased to be of assistance in your learning endeavours Shadowfog. Misery 13:39, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
lol - Mini Me talk 15:45, 11 December 2009

Yo dawg, I heard you liek mudkipz --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Cool story bro.--ShadowFog 19:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL : ) - Wuhy User Wuhy sig.jpg 12:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Shhh Wyn might complain about you! --PriceLESS 13:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
  • wuhys comments 13:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Epicc failz0rrrr O.o 13:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
ANET should really consider "Backing up" their threats, i.e. Shadow Form
Indeed, very dissapointed ='( Was hoping I'd get a christmas present worth a damn. Miskav 14:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The update is obvious[edit]

They are trying to support the oncoming complete domination of Hamsters! Dark Morphon 15:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


Dhuum in underworld(grenth) Menzies in FoW?(balthazar)--Neil2250 User Neil2250 sig icon5.jpg 15:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Based on Regina's edit[edit]

Here, can we assume that the update was to change the maps? -- FreedomBoundUser Freedom Bound Sig.png 15:43, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No, burning isle was rotated out of the AT maps Wednesday morning--TahiriVeila 16:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, wasn't sure on the timing/relation. Thanks. -- FreedomBoundUser Freedom Bound Sig.png 16:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Its the XTH points. -- 16:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Wot, no it's not. There's still no xth rep in gtob =\--TahiriVeila 16:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
It's been 7 months. The XTH is dead. Stop bringing it hurts my sensitivities. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this (or any in the future) should be deleted at all[edit]

I think empty notes should stay, perhaps not empty per say, but with a wiki-note that Anet did not release any update notes for this particular update. Why? Because people will notice that there has been an update and will want to know, having a placeholder here saying they didn't let us know what it was will serve two purposes.

1) Remind Anet that they should let us know what they did, even if it's trivial. I mean they post map-rotation notes, so post these too.

2) Let people know there was indeed an update, but that Anet decided not to tell us what it was.

- Kherec 17:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, it could be related to a security update, but even then, i would agree with you. - Serge Yseron 17:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Commonly, other games give information even if it's for a small update (many of them do it before the update even happens). But, as you should have noticed by now, Anet does not do things like other companies. We don't hear things ahead of time (or at all, sometimes). We don't get regular updates. We commonly don't get any form of communication on issues/updates. If you're not used to that by now, then I really don't know what to tell you. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 17:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
We were discussing of countering that by keeping the empty update note page. Yseron - 17:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
That wont change anything. Anet will release notes if they want. Leaving a blank page would do nothing to motivate them to add notes. I'm sure they'll say something about this update being a "mystery" here or on Guru and that'll be the last we hear. Welcome to GW. Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 18:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
It will go more easely un-noticed if we dont keep that page and ANet never comment on this update. Some of us want to prevent that so that we have a tool to arg with ANet, should they pretend something related in the futur. Yseron - 18:10, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Karate Jesus wins the Cantankerous, Cranky, Cynical Curmudgeon Award (hereafter, "C4"). | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 18:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Just throwing it out there: placeholder update pages are vandalbait (so are the normal update pages, but as this page demonstrated, the normal ones are of a lesser degree) --User Ezekial Riddle silverbluesig.pngRIDDLE 18:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
^ Karate User Karate Jesus KJ for sig.png Jesus 18:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It was an update of 280+ files too, so certainly not"trivial" as in the 2 second map rotation updates that anet publish. ~~

umm, I only downloaded about 14 files (from -image, too, and that was with a few previous updates I hadn't imaged), so I don't know what you're talking about--User Ezekial Riddle silverbluesig.pngRIDDLE 18:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe some people just need to play more often? Mediggo 19:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
bleh, i seriously just went through every skill in gws, no change

My updates were "up to date" yet, I clearly saw the update decompress 281 files - maybe you just weren't paying attention :)

I don't know, I run on 28.8 kbps internet, which usually connects at 26.4 kbps, but most of the time functions at about 21 kbps. On top of that, my computer is probably outdated by at least two generations (768 mb RAM, intel p4 2.2 GHz), so I'd have plenty of time to observe it decompressing files. It downloaded and decompressed only 14 files. --User Ezekial Riddle silverbluesig.pngRIDDLE 20:47, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I saw only 14 files too, running on something not quite as outdated as the above user, but not far off Magua 07:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Update notes[edit]

Can't edit the main page, so I'll just have to write here... Why delete the page, if there are update notes available now? :D ----Шзвч [TALK] @ 19:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. (Must be something about Dhuum, I had heard that he causes it to crash sometimes.) --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 19:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
"Thursday, December 10, 2009. Ran vandalism stress test on wiki." | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 19:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

That Loud Sound You Just Heard[edit]

Was thousands of farmers simultaneously exhaling in relief that their doom has been postponed. --Hawk SkeerAssassin Symbol(Talk) 20:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

OH WHAT A SURPRISE! CRASH BUT FIX!!! 20:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Be glad they fix those crah bugs. -- Cyan User Cyan Light sig.jpg 20:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
One day you shall suffur an inexplicable game crash and you shall understand222.152.13.244
You'd think that by fixing the crash bug so many times, that it'd be actually, you know, FIXED BY NOW??? 23:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
After new code is translated and implemented, it's no surprise that shit goes wrong somewhere in that process, shit goes wrong. No wonder why IPs are looked down upon.-- User Vanguard VanguardLogo.pnganguard 23:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
IPs are people too, but the good ones stop hiding behind their IP and give themselves names. Remember: "Users are just good IPs!" | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 01:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
What new code? What kind of updates has there been since Dhuum that required such extensive implementation of said coding that it keeps crashing the game? These crash fixes started since Dhuum and are still being fixed, 3 weeks later. So please enlighten me about this string of new coding that they are implementing that's causing so much shit to go wrong? 08:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
probably wintersday stuff. or the crash bug fix causes new bug's in the code and then they fix those and that goes on into infinity. IT NEVER STOPPS 8!!!!8!!!8!! Rhonin Soren 09:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


So how long till we know?~Nelson (n122333) 19px

Till we know what? Also, change your sig to 19x19 pixels. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 23:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Lmfao. Shard telling people to follow the wiki's rules. Thats irony in its purest form. Briar 07:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
If you were referring to your own statement, yes, very ironic. Mediggo 18:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

fail update[edit]

waited like 40 hours to find out that the epic unknown update was....a crash disapointed...AurenX 23:53, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

You'd probably be more disappointed if the game crashed while you were doing something important. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 00:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Actually, now that you mention it, that update owes me a Glad Point.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* User yasmin parvaneh sig.png 00:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I can say, for certain, I have experienced that bugUser Kyle van der Meer Sig Pic.pngKyle van der Meer 02:45, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Waiting for them to fix something it's truly disappointing. Lucky if they do it before something important.--ShadowFog 15:05, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Like the collective bitchers' next PMS cycle? | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 15:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

FIXED: Can't enter an outpost after login only after this update.[edit]

Hi guys, I could play GW just fine yesterday, but when I tried to play now, it will crash. This has never happened before. Full notes here: --Leet Tankur 02:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It's been fixed. Life Guardian 03:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
No I never had this problem before. When I log in Guild Wars, and load an outpost... it comes up c0000005 and does not let me play. This only happened after the update yesterday. --Leet Tankur 03:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I had the same problem. It's been fixed. Submit a submit a support ticket if its still a problem. Life Guardian 04:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
FIXED: A mod called Flashmod was interfering. I will contact the vendor of Flashmod.

Flashmod no longer works after update.[edit]

Now when running Flashmod after this update, your game will crash after you login. You will receive error code c0000005. To remove FM, go to C:\Program Files\Guild Wars. Now delete Graphics.dll. Reboot the game and fixed. To test this, when removing FM, the game does not crash. When keeping it, the game crashes. The vendor of FM needs to update their product. --Leet Tankur 16:54, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Flashmod no longer works because the edit was "to fix a crash bug", however there was some changes in the way the game deals with data internally, which if this flashmod is just a memory hook into guild wars would definitely fuck up their memory addresses = Crashmod. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).
Someone needs to post this on the wiki page. Theres a lot of people who are having this problem. --Leet Tankur 18:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Do you guys see a pattern emerging? First was the program/mod that made possible logging two accounts on one PC simultaneously, then Flashmod; I'm not using any of them so I can't really support too much this theory, but could this be the beginning of the end for various GW mods that might be there? Markus Clouser User Markus Clouser signature img.jpg 18:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Running multiple clients still works fine. — PmaN  18:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
You can still run multiple clients with GWML. I don't think ArenaNet is killing mods. However, FM was a very good mod to have. You could go on websites while you sell and it would alert you if you received a PM. Your going to be missed, FM. --Leet Tankur 19:00, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Running the game windowed is just as effective imo, and its not like it couldn't be updated. — PmaN  19:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Running GW in windowed mode actually consumes more resources than having it full-screen, so when I am doing anything else even remotely serious (i.e. playing a fun game) that's not a viable option. Vili 点 User talk:Vili 19:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I guess that would depend on what kind of setup you have. — PmaN  19:08, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Hey, I'm the author of FlashMod (sunec from Guru). The thread was removed due to ANet not liking the mod, even though I posted the source, so I'm sorry if you haven't been able to receive updates for the mod, but it still works, albeit not older versions. [1] is link to zip archive with source and a compiled Graphics.dll. Glad to see that someone cares about my mod! -- 21:44, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Very good man! I love FM! That version works with the newest update too! --Leet Tankur 22:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

List of Changes?[edit]

Hey guys, since Arena Net hasn't posted any of the changes from the update on Saturday (12/12/2009), let's make a list of changes that we have seen, or thought you have seen. I know they're not updated on the Wiki itself, but since we're talking about it, let's upload any changes that we have seen. Monsters, skills, new glitches, etc. Agreement, trolls? ^^ Than 09:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Trolls. ---Chaos- (talk) -- 09:46, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree, the number of trolls in Southern Shiverpeaks has gone up rapidly. At this rate Droknar's Forge will soon be overwhelmed either by trolls itself or tusk farmers. Either way, nobody is going to give a crap because all Prophecies towns except Lion's Arch, and perhaps Ascalon City, have been all but abandoned by players. Mediggo 08:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Compass + hero flags change?[edit]

I'm either dense or never noticed that the flags changed. Now it's a pointer with a flag that makes it clear where you're clicking. 20:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

This may be hard to believe, but this update fixed a crash bug. ~Shard User Shard Sig Icon.png 20:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
nice one! --PriceLESS 12:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I see what is *documented* on the article page, yes, but I was just adding a question to the parent topic's question. 20:31, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Shard, if they never changed anything besides what they said, we wouldn't have any need for wiki notes on update pages. --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 20:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, the flags are different. | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 22:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
But there's no way to determine if this change actually occurred in this update (December 10) and not in the undocumented December 12 update. --Silver Edge 03:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Probably the 12th since nobody noticed until now. Is there any way to document that we know it happened but not sure which date? --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 03:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
On the 11th, i specifically remember the flags were still old style. I was doing deep heroway and i remember flagging the heros on the wooden boards to open the gate... -- Pixy | Talk User pixy hand.png 08:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Can we call that confirmation? --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 08:12, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. I apparently didn't notice on the 12th or 13th, until the 14th, so I couldn't say for sure that I just didn't notice on the 10th and 11th either. 01:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Funny how this change comes after HB is removed, huh? Vili 点 User talk:Vili 08:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
HB? What's that? Never heard of it. Sounds pretty retarded, thou. Mediggo 08:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
HB was kinda fun at first, but not once they brought out the motor oil. People got tired of the stains and burn marks. --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 08:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like they added a red font to the log in screen as well. User Kyle van der Meer Sig Pic.pngKyle van der Meer 15:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the red font too. Im sure it wasn't there before. -- Cyan User Cyan Light sig.jpg 15:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
That's just to emphasize the importance of strong passwords, it's not an update. --PriceLESS 15:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
You saw it before? No? Then it is (Guess) released at the same time of the update, if not part of the update. -- Cyan User Cyan Light sig.jpg 15:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
lol they only changed the font colour on one of the announcements, they made it red to grab peoples attention! - maybe every time they leave a new announcement it should be classed an update. --PriceLESS 16:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
The font color got changed today, not 5 days ago, and it doesn't require a game update. --Cursed Angel talk 16:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you CA to clarify that =) It's difficult to say things nice, isn't it Trash? -- Cyan User Cyan Light sig.jpg 16:06, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
"You saw it before? No? Then it is" Practice what you preach. --PriceLESS 17:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Good try, still not what I ment. -- Cyan User Cyan Light sig.jpg 17:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the red font, see Feedback talk:Gaile Gray/Support Issues#Update: 15 December 2009. --Silver Edge 22:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
So we can be pretty certain source needs to be compiled to change the font color, makes sense(google for fonts in programming) and hence could be included in the update notes XD Minor anyways though just think it's interesting. User Kyle van der Meer Sig Pic.pngKyle van der Meer 22:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, if it had no support for color originally, yes... but we don't know for sure that is the case -- see (red|blue|green) rock candies, the color was new, it mostly works (only in a couple occasions, iirc does the color tags show up unrendered 01:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


I'm fairly certain those flags have been there for a very long time. I've remembered seeing them at least since the RR days. ··· Danny Pew Pew 18:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

/Agree.--Underwood 22:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Uh, I don't think so. But maybe I was just inattentive. Have screenshots from any earlier than this update that prove the note wrong (or right)? --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 22:25, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, cause I take screenshots of myself flagging H/H :/ --Underwood 22:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. --Kyoshi (Talk) User Kyoshi sig.png 22:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe I do, but I remember them being there, certainly. I'll check my screens just in case, but I'm quite certain that these are no new addition. Someone could probably ask Kimmes for confirmation. ··· Danny Pew Pew
Funny thing about screens - they don't capture cursors. So it would be impossible to prove this without staff confirmation or enough attentive users having noticed them prior to this update. ··· Danny Pew Pew
The flags have been that way for a while. Pay more attention. - Mini Me talk 14:14, 18 December 2009
Well, so we have some people disagreeing with others, and still no proof besides anecdotal evidence (and mine disagrees with yours). At any rate, no way in hell we're gonna be able to find which update in the past it came with, if it didn't come with this one. If people only first noticed it now, it may as well have come around now! :P | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 16:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Except that it didn't. - Mini Me talk 18:36, 18 December 2009
So you keep saying. What's your point? I didn't say it came now; I said it may as well have come now. | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 02:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
You and Kyoshi are the only ones that appear convinced that the cursor update occurred during this update, so I'm removing the note unless you can get confirmation that it really did happen. ··· Danny Pew Pew 21:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh, it happened. We just don't know when. And in all likelihood we never will. So this is where it falls unless you want it forever undocumented. | 72 User 72 Truly Random.jpg (UTC) 23:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's ask Linsey when her talk page is unlocked. This is an important issue. We have to be precise. - Mini Me talk 23:31, 21 December 2009

(Reset indent) I'm hoping that was sarcasm, but in the interest of ending the conversation, Joe would probably be more likely to know / able to answer. -- FreedomBoundUser Freedom Bound Sig.png 23:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I will ask Joe. I am hoping he will know so that we can place the note in the correct update. - Mini Me talk 18:41, 22 December 2009
Here. - Mini Me talk 19:18, 22 December 2009