Talk:Double Dragon

If someone could get both Factions and nightfall in the campain part of description for me...I can't seem to get it to work. The Holy Llama 07:17, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow - a semi-core skill. I've never noticed that before. Are there any more in Factions and Nightfall but not Prophecies? --Snograt 07:20, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

It's still a Faction's only skill. You'll need to have Factions to be able to use it. You get a padlock icon over the skills which aren't for a campaign you own. There are others, I can't recall them off the top of my head. :) --Aspectacle 07:27, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Hah, the perils of owning all 3 campaigns :D Still, it's a bit odd putting a skill into a campaign that you can capture but not use - I say give it to a Tyrian boss (one of the Eidolons maybe) thus making it truly core ^^ --Snograt 07:33, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

The Fury

I thought The Fury was not a boss?76.185.244.98 23:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right, The Fury is not a boss and should be removed, however The Fury actor during the Dragon Festival did count as a boss, but I'm not sure if you could ever kill it 64.53.184.116 15:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Could Nightfall only characters get the elite skill? I noticed the mission that I have to undertake has this enemy with the faction elite skill. BB19 (talk) 07:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

No, see the conversation above from 17 years ago. I'm old. — snograt 12:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

underpowered

IMO change it,give it a recharge of 10-15 would still make it a bit unfavored skill. 81.245.126.162 20:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree that the recharge for this skill is too much for it to be a reasonable skill to carry in anyone's elite spot. If the recharge was shorter, maybe people would use it more often. 70.177.103.214 09:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it is kind of like Searing Flames, except it only hits things next to you and has 15x the recharge. - Elder Angelus 16:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Aftercast removed...'bout time

It took 3 years to discover that aftercast (silly concept) was hurting Eles and that was one of the many reasons why they suck. After casting DD or any spell that had that extra long aftercast, I was getting my azz beat and couldn't do anything about it (couldn't move, couldn't cast, couldn't attack). Now, Eles wont be a sitting duck (i.e., easy target) after casting so they can actually go kill something and benefit the team instead of being carry-on baggage.

Now all you have to do is reduce the recharge to 20 and increase the range. To warrant an elite status, it needs to compete with Starburst and Shockwave (they do way more accumulative damage in a shorter time span) and its little bro's Inferno and Flame Burst cause they outdo this skill. 24.106.177.50 14:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, because with 30 recharge, elite status, and adjacent PBAoE, it's still bad. Worse than many non-elites.

it looks a good skill, but its recharge is the turn off. I love shockwave, very inventive skill mechanic. Flame burst > DD--Justice 04:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Updeath

Now you can get uber leet attribute in fire magic →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 01:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Arcane Mimicry this bitch on SF teams. 'Sup? Raine - talk 02:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Update does nothing. You can get 20 fire magic fairly easily before this. And, there's a hard attribute cap of 20. All this skill does is save you 1 skill slot and eats up your elite. --8765 02:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

PvP. Raine - talk 02:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok sure. But there goes your elite and 75 HP. It's hard to say whether it's worth giving up searing flames or savannah heat for that combo. While this is an improvement to this skill, I doubt it's going to become as popular as SF or SH in pvp (and certainly not pve). --8765 03:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't much care for it... it'd be alright if it was non-elite, but as it is it's pretty useless, tbh. Still, level-20 Rodgort's could be fun I guess. --Jette 04:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It'd b way OP if it weren't elite, but as an elite it is overshadowed by SF and SH. Still, the attribute boost can't be removed :PCrimmastermind 04:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

This isn't useless, now it's borderline underpowered. Remember that the buff cannot be removed or abused by the other team though.

Eles can consider 600/Smite now >_>? 58.179.110.181 06:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

What if people use this with already very powerfull fire magic spells Oo owait Lilondra *gale* 11:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Bomber's just got fun to play with in pve. And somewhat decent too. Yay --Adul 16:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

You only need a -35h +2Fire rune to get your fire magic up to 20, use glyph.~>Sins WDB 23:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Question

Does the damage come before or after the + ... fire magic? --Sihvahn 14:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

After.

Bug?

lets say you have 12 fire magic +1 from headgym or w/e it's called +3 fire rune. when you use Glyph of Elemental Power -- Double Dragon you got 20 fire magic, then Double Dragon says "Fire Magic +3" then you use it again and your fire attribute stays 20, doesn't change to 21. Now i'm just wondering if it can't go above 20 or if it's some kind of bug or something.

You cannot raise your attributes over 20 without the usage of an "Attribute +1 / 20% chance when using skills" mod. Vili 18:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

All you really need is 15 fire magic to get 20 →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 21:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Rodgort's@20 is hawt in halls tbh. 217.120.228.192 21:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Related

Added Flame Burst and Inferno, since both are PBAoE in the fire attribute. They seem as related as Glyph of Elemental power, unless we are categorizing on actual use, because this seems to me to be more likely used for +2 fire, than as a PBAoE by most primary elementalists. However, someone might want a huge PBAoE build, and this would help them do that. StatMan 03:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps also add Flame Djinn's Haste? After all, its PBAoE with a buff. — Why 17:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

While we're at it, let's add heal area and healing ring. they are PBAOE too.

That's stupid. Everyone uses this for the attribute boost, so the only related skill would be Glyph of elemental power. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I say remove all. I don't think we should relate it based on what we think is it's main use. Should Aura of the Lich be related? Glyph is as related as Fire PBAoE. I didn't think of Flame Djinns. I've reconsidered, and I think there is nothing related. StatMan 06:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

only stupid people would waste an elite for the +2 fire magic. You use it for pumping out PBAoE damage 90.206.243.79 17:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you noticed how no one ran this before, and now they do? Vili 18:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you noticed that recasting nets +5 fire magic? --75.175.2.66 22:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Star Burst isn't related actually. Not that it's very good anymore, but still, they're both pretty similar. Pjwned 00:53, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

21 fire magic attribute

I can has 21 fire magics.... File:User JonathanMartin Sig.jpgJonathan 11:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm... you could do that way before this ever got changed. -Auron 11:52, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I still prefer the various candies to this skill, tbh. Running fire magic in PvP feels gimmicky to me no matter what, and Savannah Heat/Searing Flames/Flare is better than a PBAoE anyway. Except flame djinn's haste, which is pretty cool sometimes. --Jette 18:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Orly? Golden Egg + (another consumable which i can't remember the name of) + 16 fire magic + GoEP = 18; You need DD for +2 and again for +3. File:User JonathanMartin Sig.jpgJonathan 19:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh Shi.... just read above post File:User JonathanMartin Sig.jpgJonathan 19:56, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Golden Egg, Candy Corn, Grail of Might, and that shrine bonus. The shrine isn't always available, but it's not that hard to get anyway. --Jette 21:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The 20 attribute cap aside, I think the max is 26-27, with cons and shrine. 12 from skills, 4 from head piece, 1 from staff (20% of course), 2 GoEP, 1 from Elemental Lord, 1 from shrine, 3 from cons, and finally 3 (or more) from Double Dragon. Making up to 27 or more possible, if the game allowed it. 6:05 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to me to be a skill you put on a ele primary, since PBAoE usually isn't what you do as an ele. StatMan 04:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Does it cap at 21? because It could technically go alot higher (25 or more by my reckoning)?? anyone know? 90.207.245.52 11:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Curious about that myself. I went through the list of consumables and found 3 different ones that could raise attributes by a point. Hypothetically, 16 Fire Magic, +2 Glyph of Elemental Power, +1 Elemental Lord, THEN +3 Double Dragon, and you have 22 fire. Triple consume, and you could push that to 25, but I have never had the consumables or desire and skill selection to test it. Guildwarsrunner 07:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

In PvP, it caps at 20 no matter if you put it to 21. I'm not sure about PvE though. --adrin 08:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It caps at 20 in PvE, too. The only way you can have a 21 is if you have it (capped) at 20 then use a 20% chance to get a +1 fire magic mod on, then you cast spells over and over until you get one that hits for more damage.

Truth be told, that used to lock up the client. Back right after the golden egg release (whenever it was first possible to get 20+1), people would dupe items by freezing their client and doing some other shit. I think that's been fixed, though, so it should just act normally. -Auron 08:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

+ Fire Magic Stacking

Pardon if I misunderstand the above talk or page text, but I was trying this out the other day, and the bonus to Fire Magic (both with Arcane Echo and just recasting the spell by itself) did not stack, it only refreshed the timer on the status block in the top left corner. Is this WAI? 67.186.22.130 21:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

This is because multiple copies of the same effect don't stack. You have to use Double Dragon + Glyph of Elemental Power to get 21 fire magic. ~Shard 21:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Technically, you can only get 20 fire magic with DD+GoEP. You need a master of my domain inscription or similar item to get 21. As such, you can split your attributes further to do goofy combos like a 160-damage, 5-second burning Rodgort's followed by Steam with 11 water (actually 13, since you have that glyph). You used to be able to get really attribute scores, but it kinda broke the game so they put a hard cap so people would stop crashing and stuff. And thank goodness, the last thing we need is hard mode monsters with Rodgort's that does a base damage of 250. --Jette 22:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

We don't have that already? ~Shard 22:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me check my mafs chart.

162 + (7 * 4 * 2) = ...oh, god fucking damnit. --Jette 23:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the (wow) quick responses. I assumed that was the case upon the non-stacking discovery (though disappointed), and I think I have now figured out the confusion I had. From the page: Since the duration of the attribute boost lasts longer than the recharge of the skill at rank 10 and higher, it is possible to maximize the fire attribute (20) with Glyph of Elemental Power and a rank of 15 in fire magic by casting twice. Would this more correctly be interpreted as: Since the duration of the attribute boost lasts longer than the recharge of the skill at rank 10 and higher, it is possible to maximize the fire attribute (20) with Glyph of Elemental Power and a rank of 15 in fire magic by casting again with the higher fire attribute, refreshing the attribute buff as +3 instead. Is that what the page is trying to say? My version's a little too long-winded, though. 67.186.22.130 00:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yea, its exactly what the page is trying to say. Should probably be reworded somehow... — Why 00:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

pvp

what about (this + inferno + flame burst)*3? Spike? Just like the necros did with unholy feast and touch skills and vamp gaze and whatever some months ago. Inferno is 170 damage at 20 fire magic. And what about some capper build for AB, HB, CM? Go /A with some shadow steps and boom here we are! 95.119.17.139 14:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the x3, but people do run this + PBAoE + sometimes some DoTAoE like Searing Heat in PvP such as AB sometimes. They take /A for Shadow Steps sometimes, as well, but usually they fail by pre-casting Double Dragon and *then* stepping to you. :\ Vili 点 22:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this works best for PBAoE builds, but I've never really liked them. I tried using it with Glowing Gaze as an alternative to an arenas Mind Blast ele, which works decently, though you don't really have space for GoEP (you need to take something like AoR for extra energy and if you want a self-heal that kinda fills up your bar). I tried it with and without, with is mega damages but awkward to use and not good for energy. Without means you only have 18 energy so it's like MB but more damage per spell and some extra damage if anyone gets too close. It's good, but then you could just take MB with GoEP I guess. 188.74.101.228 01:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

note

DISAGREE - I tested this. I tried casting DD a second time while the +2 was still active and it does not stack. I also tested it under the conditions suggested with the Glyph. The Glyph and DD do stack, but when I cast DD again, there is still no additional gain. To max the attriblute (20) either start with a +4 headpiece or add Elemental Lord. ~ Jimmy Napalm --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.176.24.157 (talk).

just moved the above post from the skill page to the talk page--BobbyT 02:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

that being said you are part right, the note saids 2 things 1) you can reapply the attribute bonus after rank 6 cause duration>recharge. 2) at rank 15 (only need a +3 headpiece) you can combo both Glyph of Elemential power and DD to get rank 20 which is true because cast DD glyph, which gets you rank 19 getting the +3 and 20 after you reapply.

the first part only state that the +2 bonus is maintainable while 2nd say how to get to rank 20. i'll agree that the note can be confusing cause it sound like you can stack the bonus with its self, going to reword the note by taking out the maintaining par, i don't think it needs to be mention --BobbyT 02:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

new note?

should it be noted that since it is treated as a spell and not an enchantment it is impossible to strip it (deaths dont count)? -The Scythe Has Fallen Ω|Ω talk Ω|Ω 19:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Does it really not end on death? If so, that should be noted. We don't need to mention that it can't be stripped, however -- spells never can, and the page already states like five times that it's a spell. | 72 | 19:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course it is stripped upon death, 72. And I'll have to agree with you on that one, such a note is, frankly, redundant. - Reanimated X 19:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

No, for the same reason that all shouts, chants, echoes, signets, skills, glyphs, preparations, and traps with this property don't have this note. Manifold 19:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

update

Well, targeting yourself won't give double damage to you 76.242.77.240 04:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

nerf or buff?

The change made here is called a buff by some peeps, but i call it a nerf. i mainly used it to boost my stats to allow spamming flame djinns haste and chained with the haste gave me some decent and fast adjacent AoE to boost DPS. now the low levels in NM have run away before any damage at all is dealt. before i had a utility build that could act as a runner that was fun. now i have a useless elementalist character. i am supremely glad that i haven't invested effort into HoM with it, as i will now delete it and try something else. as a side note just a few minutes ago some peeps (well known and respected players)just quit GW cold turkey and gave away all their goodies because of how this "downdate" affected their proffessions. of course i could strip my vigors to gain aggro but then i couldnt deal with the tough foes... great job guys. making a GAME 'less' playable. As Microsoft says when they do it "this is by desgn" no 4 dirtier words in the English Language. So cast your votes, is this patch an upgrade or a downgrade? ~>H2L --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.64.66.214 (talk) at 09:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

Double Dragon's change was neither a buff nor a nerf. It was a functionality change, and comparing its old and current functions is apples to oranges. Double Dragon now has the role melee buffing rather than nuking, acting like a double Balthazar's Aura and pseudo Conjure.

If you were using Double Dragon to up your DPS, you might want to look at the new Star Burst. Swapping out Double Dragon for the new Star Burst in the same PbAoE build should result in an overall improvement to your DPS due to its faster cycling (7.75 seconds vs 15.75 seconds), larger area of effect, and energy gain effect. Your fire magic skills will do slightly less damage per use due to the loss of the Fire Magic boost, but you should be able to nukes more frequently between the faster cycling of Star Burst and the extra energy. MA Anathe 11:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

ABSOLUTLY RUINED!

They have absolutly trashed this skill. This skill was excelant, now its less than sh*t#. I used this in SO many of my builds and now their practically useless! In my personal opinion, this is the worst skill change/update in the whole history of GW. Also, the skill functionality has been changed so much, its virtually a new skill. So, So unbelievably dissapointed!!! Titan Crow 11:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Umad?--Tyris 12:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, "now its less than sh*t#" isn't totally true. For was it is, the new functionality is quite good for an elite skill and even makes more sence in regards to the skill name... BUT the old skill was better as in that it gave you a stackable +2 fire magic bonus, cost less energy, quicker recharge and had a larger AoE. In short, it WAS an "amazing" elite elementalist skill for the melee professions but now its just "ok", at best. Its still quite good for primary ele's but just not for secondaries. Titan Crow 12:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, +2 Fire Magic isn't that amazing. You could get way more damage out of taking an Elite like Searing Flames with minimal loss in damage from your other skills. It's one thing to complain that your super-awesome killing build was nerfed, it's another thing to complain that your sub-par build was nerfed. --Curse You(talk|contribs) 17:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You still can get 20 if you move on to Elemental Attunement, you are getting mad for nothing. Da Mystic Reaper 18:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The old skill was OK for a specific type of build. This still actually works in the same kind of build. Otherwise it works a bit differently. That's hardly "the worst skill change/update in the whole history of GW". Widowmaker 20:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Worst skill update? this is worse than smiters boon. cool story bro, needs more dragons and shit 86.140.93.173 13:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

AI Note

Has anyone seen AI use this or any Double Cast skill? I've tested both this and Mirror of Ice and, so far, both are invisible to my heroes. --Ph03n1x 23:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Already been reported as a bug but it turns out the AI has been programmed only to use them when the conditions are optimal meaning that damage is dealt to foes in range both the caster and the target ally and both benefiting the effects the most, wich turns out that it is a situation not occuring often. Anet is already concidering to adjust the AI to make them use this skill more often. Da Mystic Reaper 00:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It might be worth testing by having a caster that is durable enough to sit in the middle of battle; in theory, NPCs should cast DD on that target repeatedly. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I just hacked away at Lian, Dragon's Petal for a good minute, minute and a half, and where she use to use it on recharge (I've farmed her many times), she didn't use it once, even when her mob had me completely surrounded. The note reads as if AI uses it only infrequently, but that they do in fact use it.--Ph03n1x 00:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, just tested again and Lian used it - but only when her target would damage multiple foes. I'm not sure why my heroes wouldn't use it, though. *Takes notes, continues testing* --Ph03n1x 00:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

My heroes were using it on recharge, usually targeting my dervish front runner, although occasionally not. --94.194.124.176 23:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

My heroes were also using it. When I had two heroes with DD, they used it on each other. When the first DD expired, the other hero would cast the second. Also, when I had pets in my party, they used it on the pets quite a lot too. Actually, I found that the AI would make best use of it when I gave it to melee heroes and that when the caster had it, they tended to use it a lot less. Titan Crow 23:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Guys anybody willing to share the specific builds used on heroes? I started a new Project here: AI Skills Usage. Also wanted to ask your own methods of observation and see if there is a pattern in which most players proceed. Yoshida Keiji talk 00:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Scythe

as far as my tests said, if attacking with a scythe, multiple targets get burning, i don't get it why you removed that note? Zora Diem 21:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not remove the note; however, in my experiments the scythe skills did not apply burning to multiple targets. Note that the burning applies to the target of the attack skill only, not the targets actually hit. Please check the condition of your tests. Porcelain1 01:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

i did, i know u need an attack skill. but i tested with eremites Attack (AoE if Enchant is removed) and every1 around me got burned. so yes, Scythe skills (which is cone effect all of them, and some AoE) does benefit from it, as well as Some Axe skills (which have a PBAoE effect) yet, i'm going to try if VoS does benefit, if it counts as Attacks or if it counts as Enchantment damage. Zora Diem 08:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I tested several scythe skills and Whirlwind Attack. Although multiple foes were attacked, only the target got burnt. Not sure why you're seeing different results, can you please redo your tests?

I tested using myself and a hero with just Double Dragon on the Isle of the Nameless, to make sure there are no other sources of burning. Tub 11:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

alright, as soon as i'm home from school i can try it, i got the result that people around me got burned last try, but will do a second test, Zora★Diem 09:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that he was removing a derv enchant that caused burning. 80.42.200.25 12:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Doublecasts

Added the other four in a seperate category to "related skills". 94.212.57.91 08:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

A Shame They Changed It

I see no reason to play my ele anymore, but I'm not deleting him since he has such as awesome name lol.

Allowed me to actually have fun with the skill and have benefits to using it (+2 magic) and not be bored playing Eles (almost always dislike any magic based class, they bore me to death with their playstyle of sitting in the back), Double Dragon was an interesting skill imo. Guess I'll just stick with my Ritualist (only casting class I have ever had fun playing, even before I got SoS).

I guess I'll switch over to Earth Magic to better fit with his name if I decide to go on my ele.

68.84.38.98 21:00, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Well you can simply switch to a more effective Starburst and if it's just for +2 fire magic then change your elite to Elemental Attunement. But what i wonder about is why you play a caster class when you don't like them. Da Mystic Reaper 12:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Variety, too many characters of one class and it gets boring, especially since my warriors aren't all that different (since I've settled on my play style for that class, kind of hard to change it).

108.16.165.49 13:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Synergy with Glowing Gaze

does using glowing gaze get an instant "target foe is burning" condition met? Or does it the burning apply after the skill? Using Glowing gaze on a mark of rodgorted target does...

You could have found the answer on the Glowing Gaze page: "The target is checked for Burning after the Burning effects of Double Dragon, Glyph of Immolation, and Mark of Rodgort are triggered by this skill." --Silver Edge 04:59, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

What about Reap Impurities? — Raine Valen 23:05, 13 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Same here; burning is applied before the condition check. --Cealdor (talk) 10:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Still Needs Work!

HM AI use of this skill makes it far too powerful in areas with Jade Brotherhood. With 2 mages per mob, Knights moving at increased speed, Mages spamming Dragon Stomp... It's a bit too much to deliver 600+ points of damage on repeatedly knocked down PCs while having AOE tanks running through the works.

Some tweaks I suggest would be to restrict Mages to one per mob, remove Dragon Stomp or Double Dragon from their skillbar, alter Double Dragon, by setting a "disables Fire skills for XX seconds" clause, or setting this as a VERY high exhaustion causing (assuming the AI has exhaustion...which I fail to see the effects of) enchantment or setting the caster on fire for a long duration or requiring them to not move or attack, possibly alter Dragon Stomp (with "disabled for XX seconds", change it to a projectile requiring a burning foe, a much longer cast time, "knockdown all creatures...extinquishes all burning", or even dropping Mages to a single attribute (Fire or Earth only and have 2 separate types?) or any similar such restrictive measures. Anything that could restrict this pair of skills to something that won't kill 4-8 PCs in the time it takes to get knocked down and get up. I don't mind a challenge, but these HM Jade Brotherhood mobs in zones such as Nahpui Quarter (explorable) move way too quickly and overlap 3-4 mobs on some areas. No encounter comes without 4 Mages and 4 Knights dropping a whopping 1k DPS per opponent on knocked down groups while Mesmers interrupt between and Rits deal AP damage plus heal anything a group can manage between knockdowns. With the boosted armor, HP, and speed, plus the agrressive AI of HM it's not possible to pull only one mob...very quickly you are dealing with a second and a third, making it go from tough to impossible to instant death for a whole group, long before you can deliver enough damage to take out that first mob. It becomes much worse wherever Winds of Change comes into play as well... Quests such as the Zaishen Bounty "Royen Beastkeeper" will demonstrate the worst of this...I've got characters of every class, and some simply cannot do that quest on HM (or even "Ghial the Bone Dancer") without a cookie-cutter build (and cookie-cutter builds are for unimaginative WoW players), even using mercenary heroes to compensate with all high armor professions at max HP one cannot have enough HP to survive a common mob. Either thin the Jade Brotherhood herd, and/or reduce the capability of these foes, at least where there is no active WoC quests...these aren't bosses and this isn't PvP! When NPC mobs single out a target to eliminate (and HM AI does exactly that, just like PvP), it shouldn't be capable of dropping an instant death on it, let alone taking 3-7 others with it. I've had times where I'm fully buffed (all that candy is going to make me have to invest in a bigger set of armor) flag my group back, run in for a pull on a 4 unit mob (2 Mages, 2 Knights), and die before I can complete a one second cast (Knights closing spell range that quickly, and 2 Dragon Stomps in succession making it impossible to move)...nearly killing my life-bonded monk in the process...it's simply too much. Gwynna Vive 04:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

You should create a Feedback article (see: Feedback:Getting started) and AI-related comments may also be posted on Hero behavior discussion pages; the Guild Wars Live Team are known to frequent those pages. --Falconeye 10:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

For vqing you should probably be balling the warriors while chaining Shield of Absorption off your MM/Union off your communing rit, or using enchantment removal like PoD. Once you've blinded the warriors their team can't remove it, so it should only be the dps of double dragon tbh. Mesmer heroes will happily pdrain D-stomp if you let them, or you could bring YMLAD to interrupt it yourself. (technobabble might be good in theory but mesmers will rupt it) Also, mirror of disenchantment might be good there. Chieftain Alex 10:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Like Alex said, just tke the proper skills to counter the Jade Brotherhood instead of running Discord. Almost every area in the game can be easily vanquished with the proper skills, you just have to know wich ones to take. If you find it hard to counter their damage take a ST rit with Shelter and Union and ptional Displacement for defense against the warriors. Dragon's Stomp has a long casting time so one well placed Complicate counters it perfectly. Hexes are less adviced because their mesmers are pros at removing hexes with Expell Hexes, however like Alex mentioned they posses no condition removal making them very effective. Putting a dervish instead of a warrior at the frontline with Veil of Thorns and Mirage Cloak will be able to take in damage just fine and still have room for damage. Anyways just try out some different skills and combinations and see what works best for you instead of complaining that it's too hard, because it isn't, you just haven't found the correct way to deal with them yet. Da Mystic Reaper 12:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Vanqed Wajjun Bazaar with heroes without much trouble. For defensive support i used a N/Rt restoration build for healing with Weapon of Remedy as elite, a N/Mo using Protection Prayers with Mend Condition, Guardian, Aegis, Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption and a Rt/Mo Soul Twister using Shelter, Union and Displacement and Remove Hex.

For offense i used a Rt with Signet of Spirits, Bloodsong, Agony and Painful Bond and some Restoration spells for healing support, a N/Rt Aura of the Lich MM with Bone Horror, Death Nova, Dark Bond and Splinter Weapon and Flesh of My Flesh, a Me/Rt with Psychic Instability, Power Spike, Complicate, Mirror of Disenchantment and Flesh of My Flesh, and as last a E/Rt with Blinding Surge, Chain Lightning, Shell Shock, Shock Arrow and Flesh of My Flesh.

I myself played a dervish with Vow of Strength, Extend Enchantments, Staggering Force, Eremite's Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Armor of Sanctity, Veil of Thorns, Eremite's Zeal and a Red Rock Candy.

If you run such a team you should have little problem taking on the Jade Brotherhood. Da Mystic Reaper 20:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)