Talk:High Inquisitor Toriimo

Split

Disagree with the merge (and adding split tag) for two reasons:

• Has it been confirmed that High Inquisitor Toriimo and Justiciar Toriimo are the same person? Gender "oversight" is a pretty big one imo.
• Anyone following a link to Justiciar Toriimo instead gets a faceful of spoiler info. Either needs to be split or have the page setup to deal with spoilers.

Wiki-noob, figure now's as good a time as any to get back contributing. *groan* --Janwen 01:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Toriimo visited Lyle with one of them Extreme Makeover tickets. Nothing new to see here, move along citizen. Razor39999 02:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

LI too disagree with the merge, unlike Princess Salma, they use two different models and are based at two different points in the timeline. It's like if we were to merge Gwen (Prophecies) with Gwen (Eye of the North) or Nicholas Sandford with Nicholas the Traveler. -- Konig/talk 03:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree as well. I mean gender change? –alistic 04:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• wonders if torimo is a tranny* Hitojin 05:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Characters can change gender at will for a nominal fee, I don't see why NPCs shouldn't be allowed to. I suggest we keep this as one article unless someone at ANet confirms they're two separate NPCs. –Jette 05:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the point of splitting an article based solely on an appearance change, as there are many many NPCs that undergo that and are kept in one article. I also believe the time ones are split because those involve such radical changes that the character in question may as well be an entirely separate entity, and the articles would be far too large if they were not split. Also, did you know that Captain Greywind was originally supposed to be a female, after its namesake, Gaile Gray? Gender "accidents" happen sometimes. Vili 点 05:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

It isn't just about the gender discrepancy. The circumstances of his/her promotion are a spoiler to anyone who has not finished the Prophecies storyline. The simple fact that Justiciar Toriimo redirects here is bordering a spoiler, and the first time Confessor Isaiah is mentioned or it is implied that something happened to Justiciar Hablion, it's definitely spoiler territory. The fact is you can't say much at all about the High Inquisitor version of Toriimo without it being a spoiler to anyone interested in info about Justiciar Toriimo from the Gates of Kryta mission. At the very least, imho, the article should be moved to Justiciar Toriimo with another section down the page (with a nice spoiler tag before it) discussing everything we've learned about Toriimo since the end of Prophecies. --Janwen 17:12, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Added links for emphasis. --Janwen 17:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how it's removely spoilery that a very minor NPC gets a bit of a promotion between Prophecies and the War in Kryta. And it's never implied that anything happened to Hablion in the article. --Santax (talk · contribs) 17:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

"A bit"? Seriously? An underling of a Justiciar, who is only talked about in the past-tense and did not himself receive a promotion, becomes a High Inquisitor and a major part of a new storyline. You really don't see the problem here? A very minor npc becomes a very major npc... and you don't consider the transition to be "remotely spoilery"? Anyone capable of thinking for themselves can put two and two together just from the vague references here and realize >something< is going to happen with the white mantle in Prophecies... And those same references don't make it very hard to guess. --Janwen 18:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Lets ignore the spoiler aspect for a bit. Do we have Nicholas as 2 different people? Yup. Do we have Etham the Artisan as two people? Yup. It's the same thing here. Unless we merge those, and the Gwen NPC articles, then we should have this, and the Isaiah article, separated. -- Konig/talk 18:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Konig: The reason we don't have Gwen and Nicholas, particularly, in one article is because of the huge amount of information that the article would have to contain. Etham's a different case, and to be honest I wouldn't oppose him being merged into one article. This is a much different case, the bit about him being a Justiciar is practically trivia from how minor the NPC is. Picking out examples doesn't mean anything - look, I can do it too. Janwen: Yes, "a bit". First-time Prophecies players won't know or particularly care what a High Inquisitor is, and they aren't going to chase it up in great detail. And if you read it properly, you'd see that Hablion isn't referred to in past tense, it's actually Toriimo "[Toriimo] used to be a subordinate of Justiciar Hablion". What do you think players will think, "oh my god, this minor NPC receives a promotion later on in the game, this means that Hablion is murdering the Chosen, Dorian dies and Master Chief gets stranded in space at the end!!!"? They're unlikely to even view the page, considering there is one mainspace link on the entire wiki to that page. --Santax (talk · contribs) 19:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Those examples are a different case because all they had was a model change in two different scenarios. They are not major NPCs (Toriimo and Isaiah are for the WiK, but minor in Proph) and they do not change in name or the like. Shiro is not an example to your case, nor is Thommis (though Thommis more so, but like Salma that was just a name change). Varesh, Etham, Isaiah, Toriimo, Gwen, Nicholas, these are the same scenario. Shiro is the same scenario as Mhenlo, Devona, etc., Thommis is the same scenario as Salma, Hablion, Dorian, and your other examples are the scenario as Togo. In this case, name model and lore (spoilers) are affected; in Shiro's case it's location build and lore (spoilers) which is similar to your example of Lincoln; in Thommis and Salma's case its a name change and minor lore; in Verata's case, it's just the model and lore. In every case the lore and in turn spoilers are part of their personal storyline, so I'm not going to argue on the case of spoilers. But a simple model change, a simple name change, or a simple skills change is not warrant for a new page. But the combination and being a part of a different campaign, is a different scenario. If we keep this separate, then we need a spoiler tag at the top saying it is a spoiler to Prophecies.

Also, considering the gender change, have people 1) gone to where s/he is a justiciar to see if that model was changed and 2) considered that these are two people with the same name? -- Konig/talk 19:26, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Do a wiki-search for Confessor. You'll notice that in several instances, in-game npcs refer to Confessor Dorian as "the confessor". It isn't hard to follow that with the conclusion/assumption that there is only one confessor in the White Mantle. Mentioning another confessor appears later in the storyline is a spoiler. And yes, coupled with "Previously a subordinate of Justiciar Hablion", I believe that's exactly what players will think (minus the sarcasm). And since when is likelihood of viewing a page an argument against avoiding exposure of new players to unnecessary spoilers, especially when the link to said page comes from a mission article? --Janwen 19:32, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Konig: The examples are perfectly valid, you're just being pedantic. But I don't have the time or the effort to argue over such a minor point. And yes, I checked the gender personally, and no, I don't think that these are two people with the same name. That sort of thing is exceptionally rare in GW, and I think it'd be a bit of an amazing coincidence if it turned out that Toriimo happened to be a common name for Krytans (who always seem to end up become Mantle Knights).
Janwen: Then we change the text to read "the person designated by the Confessor", or put a spoiler tag at the top. Not splitting the article for a single NPC into two pages. Even then, by this point in the game, players aren't going to know anything about the Confessor, not enough to be spoiled. By the way, "previously a subordinate of Justiciar Hablion" does not in any way, shape or form mean (or even imply) that "they were previously a subordinate of Justiciar Hablion, who is now dead". All it means is the person was previously a subordinate of Justiciar Hablion, but is not any longer. No more, no less. --Santax (talk · contribs) 21:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

If you want to keep these articles merged, then merge the aforementioned linked articles (and those brought up in Isaiah's discussion), along with Kormir/Goddess of Truth, Prince Rurik/Undead Prince Rurik, Varesh Ossa/Prophet Varesh/Commander Varesh, Vizier Khilbron/Lich Lord, and I do mean to merge the Gwen pages and the Nicholas pages as well. If we merge a couple pages based on it being the same person in lore, then we merge them all. -- Konig/talk 22:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Some of those, Prince Rurik/Undead Prince Rurik, Vizier Khilbron/Undead Lich and Kormir/Goddess of Truth are HUGE spoilers - that's the reason they weren't merged in the past, no other reason. --Santax (talk · contribs) 22:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Why not? I mean, we could simply muddy up the information on each of those pages with vague references that make any spoilers just simple inuendo, or just stick a spoiler tag on it. I mean, we could easily remove any mention of Abaddon's death from the Goddess of Truth article and merge it, and then it's just a simple promotion. amirite? /sarcasm --Janwen 23:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Lol! This is a simple case of relative importance of those NPC's. Kid Gwen/grown up Gwen/BMP Gwen are all (very) important NPC's with heavy involvement in the story, basically NPC's everyone playing those parts of the game would notice. Same goes for Rurik/Undead Rurik and other Konig's examples. Isaiah and Toriimo (before their current rise in rank) were virtual nobodies in the game, about as important as any non quest giving NPC standing somewhere in a zone. So the "spoilers" involved with them are near zero. That's all there is to it. In fact the only thing that made them somewhat noticeable is being members of the White Mantle. Hell, even random collectors standing in the farthest corner of Tangle Root were more noteworthy NPC's than these 2 (before War in Kryta). Just my 0.2$ Razor39999 19:11, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr version in bold at the end:

/facepalm... For the last time it isn't about the importance of the npc, but the circumstances that led to his/her promotion. I don't know how anyone can deny that the reason these npcs became major is the very fact that the Prophecies storyline caused a major vacuum of power in the white mantle. What does that mean for new players? It means any reference to the events of Guild Wars Beyond and the War in Kryta is a potential spoiler to anyone who has not completed Prophecies. The problem isn't that an npc got a promotion. The problem is what can easily be inferred when this and other spoilers (combined with the references I've mentioned several times above) are considered. The fact of the matter is, anyone who simply clicks the links for these two Justiciars in their respective mission pages, can easily surmise "oh shit, some big junk is gonna shake up the white mantle" likely before even reaching Maguuma Jungle. And that's with the meager information we have on the npcs currently! If we really think that information isn't going to continue to grow, we're fooling ourselves. The fact of the matter remains, people interested in the Justiciars are not looking for the information that is most prevalent on High Inquisitor Toriimo and Confessor Isaiah. In this sense, the redirects are not conducive to the purpose of the wiki. --Janwen 19:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

But it is a matter of importance of NPC. It is highly unlikely anyone would specifically look for the justiciars (more likely is they would click on their name in the respective mission articles) and even if they would the information about the two prior to WiK is very minor to warrant an extra page. A spoiler tag could be added to the two current pages if it's such a big deal. In particular the info we currently have of Toriimo doesn't spoil anything, the only actual spoiler would be Isaiah's page and even that is minor, revealing only that Dorian ceased to be confessor and nothing at all particular to the circumstances of how it came to be. Razor39999 01:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

This is confusing. Please split back. Clearly, there are plenty of people in favor of the split. What does it hurt to have it split? Is the wiki running out of space? Or are we lagging from having too many articles? I don't see the problem with having them split. They have two different names, and appear in different places in space and time. This to me is enough to have two articles, and all this fanatic defense of the merge makes no sense. Rose Of Kali 16:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) To bring back this discussion: This should be split for the same reasons that Nebo Terrace is separate from Nebo Terrace (War in Kryta). Personally, I'm starting to think that Salma may be worthy of getting a split between Salma and Princess Salma. Though her entire role is playing princess, so it is hardly as necessary as this and Isaiah's pages, the later of which contains a massive spoiler for prophecies. -- Konig/talk 19:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The article already is split, and needs more splitting as it's not lcear what bits go togheter. It's just that boh articles have been placed on the same page. Since we're not running out of pages, there is no need to do that. Backsword 19:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't realize it was split because the tag and Proph info is still on this page. It's less split and more duplicated, with a duplicate having less info. Editing it now. -- Konig/talk 19:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Is the name a play off Torquemada? Sardaukar 08:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Chill Armor

I want a set dyed black ~Even If They Tried